Yahoo Search Marketing Rant

[spenland]

Well I just got off a very long and frusrating call with Yahoo Search Marketing. I transferred my account into the new Yahoo Search Marketing platform and was hoping for an improvement over their previously almost unusable system. After careful examination of the log files on my website I discovered that there were several odd referrers coming in using my yahoo PPC tag I place on the end of ever PPC ad. It became apparent to me that even though I had opted out of the Yahoo Content Match, that I was still getting PPC traffic from so called Yahoo "affiliates".

After talking with a manager at Yahoo, I was informed that even if you opt out of the Content Match you still will recieve traffic from a so called "Distribution Network" that is buried in the Terms and Conditions contract.

"The "Distribution Network" means the network, including, as applicable for the relevant Programs, the Yahoo! Search Marketing Websites, properties, and Third Party Products, through which your ads are distributed. "Third Party Products" mean collectively third party websites, properties, content, applications (including mobile and/or wireless), and/or e-mails that make ads available as a link from, an add-on service to, or otherwise in connection with the Distribution Network." -Yahoo T & C

Has anyone else been aware of this? Around 40% of the traffic I receive from Yahoo PPC is from these "Distribution Network" sites. These sites are all in no way related to the content of my website and are obvious parked domains that are employing individuals to click ads to increase revenue.

If Yahoo doesn't give us some way to opt out of these sites then I will be investing my advertising dollars elsewhere.

Any thoughts?

[dann]

By all means yes! You do have a right to specify where and when your ads appear. Yahoo has a network of "partners" such as Juno and NetZero, yes you should have a way of opting out of these but at the moment it seems unlikely.
Just as AOL and Comcast display Google ads above organic search queries, naturally Yahoo! does the same on their partner sites, this is most likely where you are getting those hits.
This is not all bad just be sure that you landing page will convert surfers into buyers. If you are selling something don't put FREE in the ad.
Make sure you put any cost in the ad and this will not only cut down on crappy referrals, but will overall increase your trust and ROI.
Hope this helps!
Dan

[dburdon]

Spenland,

unfortunately you've reached the same inevitable conclusion as I made 10 months ago. See:

Yahoo click fraud exposure.

Essentially the answers I received from Yahoo were entirely unsatisfactory. The Yahoo network is filled with all manner of dubious - so called - search operations. I investigated several that regularly appeared in client web analytics. Unfortunately, as you have found, you cannot opt out of this part of the Yahoo distribution network.

My recommendation is to reduce your dependency on Yahoo.

[untmarkb]

Yep, you are correct that you cannot opt out. If you want to see a list of some of their partner sites you can visit searchmarketing.yahoo.com/srch/network.php.

My advice is that if you aren't getting the ROI you need, then don't advertise. If you are, then continue. It is that simple. And this applies to every different search engine and form of online advertising.

[janeth]

We looked into this a while back and was told that there is no way to opt out of the partners sites, like you can with Google.

Yahoo also relies on the partners sites for the security of the clicks, from what I understand.

If my understanding is correct then it means that the person that owns the site and is making money on the clicks is also some what in charge of the click fraud. My understanding is that Yahoo does have some security in place but it does not amount to much. This is my understand from a while back and I'm not sure how accurate it is.

[kevsta]

Yahoo Search Marketing is a joke IMO.

I parallel-tested it with Google ppc most of last year, and cancelled Yahoo in October (still billed in November due to their rules) as a total waste of time and money, esp in relation to Google.

Most months my bill was between £5 and £9 due to the extremely low amount of queries. However as Yahoo impose a £20 mininum monthly spend they happily charged me £20 every month anyway. (I was not aware of this at all, must be well-hidden in the Terms)

i did get a "helpful" email at the middle of every month, advising me to loosen my search terms, or up my bid amounts so as not to get penalised. I got up to £0.70 per bid, (£0.25-£0.40 on Google) and dropped the search back from "Triathlon Training Camp" or Triathlon Camp" to just "Triathlon" which should have a huge search volume in comparison to the fairly specific terms I was using, and still couldn't get past £12 per month and so got robbed for 3 months worth of £8 per month. I know it's not a lot of money, but its the principle.

Basically they were penalising me, for not them having enough users searching my terms.

Also I didnt get a single conversion from them in 6 months, and a handful of site hits per week, compared to 30-50 hits from Google and 2-3 conversions per week. ..if I had used those search terms and bid amounts in Google, it would have cost a fortune.

IMO Yahoo PPC are rubbish and I wouldn't bother again.

[Schrisa]

If you don't simply give up on Yahoo, there are two things you can try:

1- Make sure that you use their geo-targeting feature, and limit where your traffic can come from. That could potentially cut out some of the bad traffic. If you're seeing a lot of traffic from the Bahamas and you don't get any sales from there, turn off that traffic. You'll still see the traffic in your logs...but Yahoo won't [shouldn't] be billing you for it.
2- It will be VERY VERY VERY VERY frustrating, it will take MUCH longer than the two weeks they promise you, but if you're seeing a lot of traffic from a given referrer and no conversions, you can report it to your rep as "potential invalid clicks" [aka click fraud] and perhaps get some of your money back. Also be sure to check your logs and make sure that the traffic from isn't users from a handful of IPs, and that the user IPs aren't open proxy servers.

Good luck with your traffic!

[blitzen]

Oh, you hit a sore spot with me.

I discussed with Yahoo! about who shows my ads They don't separate out their associates from the Yahoo! search. That is, when you sign up at Overture, Yahoo! will allow just about any one advertise your site. You can't say that you want your ads to show up on only Yahoo! or only in the USA.

Content Match is a broad thing where, if you sell furniture, your ads can go under a generic category of Furniture. Overture's 3rd party affiliates can select a category of furniture to display on their websites. Nice for those receiving the advertising bucks.

Also be aware that if you enter the search phrase, "yellow widgets", your ad can show up for anyone searching for "yellow widgets in Timbuktu". Overture has the option for negative keywords, but I don't have much faith in using them (I do for what I can think of). There are many more negative words than absolute ones that I want hit on. I'd have to put in almost the entire dictionary!

E.g., we sell widgets. So I use the negative "how to make" and "instructions for making", "blue widgets", "green widgets". How many permutations can you come up with?

The New Overture
I was disappointed that Yahoo! Overture didn't do more in this so-called upgrade such as limiting who shows your ads. I'd pay alot more to get ads in front of my target audience. It's a relatively minor change to limit country that shows your ad. It's better to limit the market (e.g., toys should be marketed to toy buyers and users).

I don't know what the hoopla is about with their new site. Revamping something that worked isn't the way to "move forward".

I noticed one unfavorable result with the New Overture: they give you an approx position. Ok, maybe your competition is changing their bids that fast. But, I don't think that's why. Do you really think that this overhaul was to benefit the paying customer? Think again.

Have you noticed Yahoo! paid listings from Product Submit showing up in the list, at the top on the right. They're starting to intermix Overture paying customers with Product Submit's paying customers.

Forget Targeting Your Market on the Net
The PPC thing is distressing because the advertiser has absolutely no control over who shows your ads. If you have a toy shop, there is nothing stopping your ads from being displayed by a cigar shop/directory, or auto store/directory, or garden shop/directory. If you don't sell outside the USA, your ads are still displayed internationally with Yahoo!.

Go figure.

Internet Advertising is not Traditional Advertising
If this were a traditional advertising campaign, you can decide which magazines or newspapers will show your ads. You can control the direct mail campaign by purchasing lists from relevant magazines. You can decide which billboard will show your ads. You can, indeed, target your market the right way.

Internet marketing is a totally different mindset. I wish they would hire some marketing experts to help them revamp their services.

It's apparent that these search engines don't care about targeting the right market for their paying customers. It'll take a bit of programming that they apparently don't want to pay for. At least AdWords will let you opt out of your ad being on 3rd party sites or outside the USA.

But, that's still not good enough.

What Else Can You Do?
Say you want/need to be up there in #1, 2, or 3 spot at Yahoo! There's no competition that you can go to that can position your ads in Yahoo! through a PPC campaign. Organic SEO, maybe, but it takes time. That's why many merchants opt for PPC: they weigh the cost against losing sales over time while optimizing for organic searches.

I wonder how close to a monopoly this is.

Where do we go from here?

[janeth]

My understanding was that they had limited the countries now.

[dburdon]

Originally Posted by Schrisa

If you don't simply give up on Yahoo, there are two things you can try:

1- Make sure that you use their geo-targeting feature, and limit where your traffic can come from. That could potentially cut out some of the bad traffic. If you're seeing a lot of traffic from the Bahamas and you don't get any sales from there, turn off that traffic. You'll still see the traffic in your logs...but Yahoo won't [shouldn't] be billing you for it.

Schrisa,
one of the persistent click raiders I spotted was located in Asia but logging onto a dot.co.uk (so called) search site. I suspected that the (so called) search engine employed people in Asia to generate clicks. I used IP addresses to trace the geographic origination of clicks. The (so called) UK based search site never generated any UK derived traffic. I reported my suspicions to Yahoo and received an appalling reply from their laughably named "Customer Solutions Director". I suggested they were retitled fraud cover-up director. Now Yahoo Search Marketing gets just 1 to 2% of client budgets.

[BobbyBill]

Yeah yahoo is nto even on the same planet as google when it comes to PPC, they're very frustrating and the interface is a joke.

[Rational Beaver]

I have been working to fix a large number of client accounts that were recently transfered to the new Yahoo system. One of the problems I found relates to this topic directly:

When your account is trasfered, the Content Network will be automatically enabled for all of the campaigns that are created. If you don't like the Content Network, be sure to check that.

Also important: If you had tracking URLs for each of your keywords, that has likely been screwed up in transfer. What I've seen is that for each Ad Group, one keyword will have it's custom URL stolen and assigned as the destination URL of the Ad for that group. The other keywords are likely fine. To fix this, simply copy the destination URL for the ad, change it back to the default URL with no tracking, and then paste the URL into the custom URL box for the keyword that has none. Then repeat this for every single Ad Group...

[ken000]

About 3 years ago, it took me 10 emails and several phone calls over a 3 month period to get Overture (now Yahoo) to admit that I had been the victim of click fraud to the tune of about $7,000. They wouldn't refund my money however; they just issued me a credit!

I do not trust the analytics on any PPC site; not Yahoo or Google. I refuse to use code from anyone who tells me "It will help me". BS! It will help them!

[Webdango]

See my post at:
http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=63887

[blitzen]

Originally Posted by ken000

About 3 years ago, it took me 10 emails and several phone calls over a 3 month period to get Overture (now Yahoo) to admit that I had been the victim of click fraud to the tune of about $7,000. They wouldn't refund my money however; they just issued me a credit!

I do not trust the analytics on any PPC site; not Yahoo or Google. I refuse to use code from anyone who tells me "It will help me". BS! It will help them!

I'm interested in showing click fraud. What kind of data did you have and how did you analyze it?

[ken000]

I didn't use any data - just common sense. They were charging me for roughly 30,000 clicks over a 1 week period during in which time I didn't have any change in sales.

They initially tried to tell me that so and so was running some kind of promotion which accounted for all the extra clicks. I asked them why I hadn't received one single sale from so many clicks. They responded that they were not responsible for sales. I told them that that explanation lacked any form of rational thought pattern. I then politely but firmly worked my way up the chain of command until I finally reached someone with a brain that functioned.

[JohneeMac]

I was thinking of investing in Yahoo but after reading the above i dont think ill bother

• You cant opt of out Network clicks

• Minimum spend of $20

• The interface sucks

With these three criminal errors coming from a business that wants to compete wih big G is pathetic. No wonder G is taking over the world

[ctabuk]

www.statcounter.com state that they have installed fool proof software to eliminate PPC Click Fraud - it is available only via the monthly pay for version.

[kevsta]

Originally Posted by JohneeMac

I was thinking of investing in Yahoo but after reading the above i dont think ill bother

• You cant opt of out Network clicks

• Minimum spend of $20

£20 GBP -equiv to about $38-40.00 US

• The interface sucks

With these three criminal errors coming from a business that wants to compete wih big G is pathetic. No wonder G is taking over the world

[blitzen]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

www.statcounter.com state that they have installed fool proof software to eliminate PPC Click Fraud - it is available only via the monthly pay for version.

I wonder if statcounter provides enough data to challenge and win your PPC service.

I'm using the free version of AsRep, www.asrep.com. Although it's written for AdSense people, it gives the info I need. It doesn't have the data crunching built in for monitoring PPC from the advertiser end, but that's okay. I can export the data and analyze it myself.

Here is what it can do.

• 1. The full referring URL including parameters. The parameters help to track the search terms used, exactly what service was used, etc.
  2. The page that referrer landed on including parameters. The parameters tell me the the source. E.g., In Overture, they report the search terms the user input and your keyword/phrase used to match the hit. This helps to determine whether I'm using the right keywords and whether to add yet more negative keywords.
  3. Time of day my page was hit.
  4. IP of referer. Good for tracking multiple hits.
  5. I can restrict my IP (I'm on a static IP) from being logged.
  6. Country of referer.
  7. Reports for the hour, day, month, etc.
  8. Export as CSV for further analysis.

I can also watch the path people take through my website in real time or later during the analysis. If you try this software, you'd want to set up the params, click the [Log] at the upper right, then click [CSV] later down the page. The CSV exports only what is listed. You'd have to page through and export to get all lines exported.

The info I would like to include is time spent per page. If any one knows how to capture that in Perl, please share it. Our server stats isn't setup to capture hit and runs.

Can you think of other information necessary to have to challenge the PPC services?

[artecona]

If someone clicks on one of those non qualified links in one of Yahoo's partner-affiliate sites it get's counted. You are charged nomatter what type of wonderful analytics tools you have. I can clearly see that wealthygeek.com sent one of our sites 4500 visitors and we were changed at least $1 -$3.5 a click. We see hundreds of sites in their network for just one PPC capaign. These are not cotent match but true Yahoo partners. They are truly SPAM sites. There is no perfect tool to deal with this as they decide what keyword to use in the URL string and it has nothing to do with what your paying for a search result. Yahoo is taking advantage of inefficiencies on the web as opportunists. It is clear that they are out gunned by Google for them to stoop to this bottom feeder strategy. I propose someone compiling a list of these spammy Yahoo partner sites. Does anyone know of a publishing of these site anywhere? They won't deny that they have thousands of sites that focus on common misspellings, SEO and PPC in other engines etc.. But they won't confirm any of these sites either. It think it's time to bring this issue out into the light and let the stockholder's decide what they think about it.