Yahoo/Overture Site Match? Success or Failure?

[karkfump]

Has anyone been able to determine if the outrageous pricing structure to this new indexing service is worthwhile? I am currently ranked in the top five on Yahoo for my three main key phrases (alaska hunts, dall sheep hunts, and brown bear hunts), but I paid through the old positiontech route about 5 months ago, and I am just wondering if I am going to be forced to pay the much higher rates through Overture in the future to maintain any type of position on Yahoo. My understanding is that with the new Site Match service through Overture, individuals are going to have to pay .15-.30 cents per click depending on what type of website they may have?

[bhartzer]

If you're ranking well right now, then I wouldn't pay Yahoo! or Overture anything now. As long as it's doing well now, I wouldn't mess with it.

[janeth]

I agree with bhartzer 100% If your where you want to be there is no reason to pay anything.

[VegasMack]

It is my understanding (and if I am wrong, please correct me) that Site Match:

• Charges a fee for inclusion per URL.
  Ranks your site by relevancy and site content.
  Charges you 15-30 cents per click.

Many problems come to mind.

• If you are already ranking well in Yahoo, are you going to be bumped out of position by someone that paid for inclusion?
  What about those of us that paid the $299. for Yahoo Express Inclusion that are now not showing up in the Yahoo search since the changes?
  What about all the money that many of us paid for inclusions (less than six months ago) to many SE that provided Yahoo and others with data at the time but no longer does so do to Yahoo changing the rules?
  If you are willing to pay the $39 or $49 per URL (can’t remember which) and the 15-30 cents per click, when are the rules to the game going to change again and how much will it cost then?

I don’t mind paying the cost for express inclusion if it is reasonable to help launch a new site and then let the site be ranked on its own merit.

I have 3 new clients that after presenting the facts have opted not to participate in Yahoo Express due to lack of benefit under the current scenario.

I do object to paying for inclusion and pay per click.

I also object after encouraging my clients to pay for an inclusion to www.mediumsizesearchengine.com for one year, based on the premise that they provide data to a half a dozen SE only to get an email 4 months later telling me they no longer provide data to those search engines. Or worse yet when www.mediumsizesearchengine.com is bought out by www.hugesearchengine.com and that I will have to join Site Match (and spend a LOT of money) to be included now even though I paid for a year inclusion.

The search terms I use on my sites and my clients sites (all quoted at 30 cents per click) would bring too many clicks to be affordable since the click/sale ratio is historically low. A campaign for the search term “Las Vegas real estate” could easily result in 1,000 clicks per day. That would be a $9,000. a month bill that I (or my clients) just can’t afford.

I think I am going to sit on the sidelines on this SE paid Inclusion for awhile, and see what the rules (and cost are) when they inevitably change again in six months or less.

I am admittedly a novice in SEO so if I am looking at this wrong, please set me straight.

[cbp]

Charges a fee for inclusion per URL.
Ranks your site by relevancy and site content.
Charges you 15-30 cents per click.

It doesn't get you ranked any higher than you would naturally. The other benefit is 48hr refreshes/recrawls.

If you are already ranking well in Yahoo, are you going to be bumped out of position by someone that paid for inclusion?

No. Participating in Site Match or not does not affect a sites rankings.

What about those of us that paid the $299. for Yahoo Express Inclusion that are now not showing up in the Yahoo search since the changes?

Thats only for the Yahoo Directory - nothing to do with being listed in the search results (except that is a backlinks).

What about all the money that many of us paid for inclusions (less than six months ago) to many SE that provided Yahoo and others with data at the time but no longer does so do to Yahoo changing the rules?

I assume you are talking about the Inktomi paid inclusion. Paying for that never got you into Yahoo (back then Yahoo results came from Google). What you paid for was distribution and refreshes every 48hrs on the Inktomi network - Yahoo was never part of the deal when you signed up (Yahoo did own Inktomi). When Yahoo started providing there own results, as a bonus, they included the Inktomi paid inclusion sites into the Yahoo results for a while - this was bonus and never part of the original deal you would have made with Inktomi.

I have 3 new clients that after presenting the facts have opted not to participate in Yahoo Express due to lack of benefit under the current scenario.

The vast majority of site will not need to participate in Site Match.

also object after encouraging my clients to pay for an inclusion to www.mediumsizesearchengine.com for one year, based on the premise that they provide data to a half a dozen SE only to get an email 4 months later telling me they no longer provide data to those search engines.

I don't think you are telling the full story here. I presume that you are talking about Inktomi - you would have got exactly what you paid for...ie distribution on the Inktomi network. They did discontinue the service, but eevryone got what they paid for. Neither Yahoo or Inktomi ever said that paying for the Inktomi network of SE's would get you into the new Yahoo.

CBP

[VegasMack]

Since Yahoo! partnered with Site Match I am unable to locate my site on theses SE that I paid for inclusion on 1 or more URLS:

• AllTheWeb
  Alta Vista
  Inktomi

Prior to the formation of the Yahoo! Site Match partnership, my sites were listed on the above referenced SEs and could be found in the Yahoo! Search Index.

• Quote:

• It doesn't get you ranked any higher than you would naturally. The other benefit is 48hr refreshes/recrawls

I believe I said “Ranks your site by relevancy and site content.”

• Quote:

• I don't think you are telling the full story here. I presume that you are talking about Inktomi - you would have got exactly what you paid for...ie distribution on the Inktomi network. They did discontinue the service, but eevryone got what they paid for. Neither Yahoo or Inktomi ever said that paying for the Inktomi network of SE's would get you into the new Yahoo

Prior to the formation of the Yahoo! Site Match Partnership, my sites were listed (and ranking to various degrees) on the above referenced SEs and could be found in the Yahoo! search index. I might me led to believe that I did get my moneys worth and the timing of my falling from theses search engines was merely coincidental if it were only on or two SE or one or two sites. But that was not the case. Only last week one of the SEs has pickup one of my sites after a mysterious absence since mid April.

Believe me I am not looking for a conspiracy. Just answers. The only other factor that could have affected my disappearing act in the above referenced SE was my participation in LinksTOYou. However you stated in another thread:

• Quote:
  
  Links to yo ucan not hurt you - no matter how bad they are.

I suppose if the rest of my sites reappear with ranking since I have stopped participating in LinksToYou we will have answered that question. If they do not reappear then the answer is not so clear.

I do really appreciate your input though.

-Mack

[cbp]

Since Yahoo! partnered with Site Match I am unable to locate my site on theses SE that I paid for inclusion on 1 or more URLS:

AllTheWeb
Alta Vista
Inktomi

Prior to the formation of the Yahoo! Site Match partnership, my sites were listed on the above referenced SEs and could be found in the Yahoo! Search Index.

When did your pay for inclusion with Inktomi expire? You still should be in Inktomi SE's if that has not expired. Yahoo should not have affected that. I would contact your 'supplier' and ask why.

Altavista is a different SE and paid inclusion there is different again.

UNLESS - there is some sort iof penalty been imposed - as you paid for inclusion, you are entitled to an explanation (thats what you pay for)

CBP

[VegasMack]

Copied from Inkomi website

• SEARCH SUBMIT
  Inktomi is no longer accepting new subscribers to its Search Submit™ program. If you're interested in joining a similar program, our partner Overture Services now offers a new program called Site Match™. Please click here to learn more and sign up.

Copied from AltaVista website

• Overture Site Match(tm)
  Search results on AltaVista are powered by Yahoo! Search Technology. For fast submission to the Yahoo! Search index via the Overture Site Match(tm) program, Click Here.

Copied from AlltheWeb website

• Site Submission
  Search results on AlltheWeb are provided by Yahoo!. For fast submission to the Yahoo! Search index via the Overture Site Matchtm program, Click Here.
  The Partner Site PFI program has been discontinued. Legacy Partner Site PFI customers will continue to receive distribution on the historical AlltheWeb network until their subscriptions expire.

My Inktomi subscriptions expires some time in 2/2005
My Alta Vista subscriptions expires 8/2004
My AllTheWeb subscriptions expires some time in 2/2005

[cbp]

My Inktomi subscriptions expires some time in 2/2005
My Alta Vista subscriptions expires 8/2004
My AllTheWeb subscriptions expires some time in 2/2005

I would be making big noises with these, as they should still be running. Get on to who ever your vendor of these was... you should still be getting what you contracted for (unless banned - ie do not meet content/quality guidelines). I have seen statements from Yahoo staff to that effect.

I had an Inktomi one, that just expired last month and they were still crwling that every 48hrs until then - fortunatly for me, the site still ranks well naturally.

The altvista one used to run seperatly and was not part of the Inktomi network.

CBP

[karkfump]

From my experience, you will be lucky to even get someone to complain to. I signed up for the Inktomi indexing service with one url less than 6 months ago for an annual fee of $39 through the positiontech.com website, and after the switchover with Yahoo and the overture deal, I have never even been able to access my account again.

[VegasMack]

Well, back to the original question and point I was trying to make. I can not afford (neither can my clients)$49.00 per URL and 30cents per click.

I will wait this one out on the sidelines and see what develops in a few months as the game will most certainly change again.

I doubt there is a lot of Realtors that can afford a PPC campaign that could possibly run $9,000 per month, so if Site Match does not get a lot of participation, Yahoo! Will most likely rethink their strategy.

They will have to if they genuinely want to bump Google out of the #1 Position.

Just my 2 cents worth.

-Mack

Ranked in top five is good indeed. However, you need to decide what your goals are. If you get enough clicks - don't pay Overture; if you think you'd be better spending some cash and getting more hits (leads, sales...) go for it.

I run one site that has #1 position for two major search phrases on Yahoo! in a multi billion dollar industry segment. None the less we do pay a few bucks a month to leave no room for competition above our placement. The fact is, even #1 position is two (and sometime more) positions below a sponsored spot. By the way, we never paid Yahoo! or anyone else for our link inclusion. My guess, the relevance and a good ration of key words in a header/URL/META tags/body, still work.

On the other hand another site I manage paid for inclusion of three links to iNeedHits.com to appear on AskJeeves and their network. They just sent a message letting us know of "renewal specials". I checked our stats and apparently we did not get one click from that deal... I just finished writing to them letting them know about that waste of money.

[incrediblehelp]

Hasn't LookSmart proven this business model to be a failure already?

[Alchemist]

Personally, I don't see this Yahoo program lasting through the end of this year :-)

[apply75]

Site Match is just a change name by Yahoo to separate it out from Inktomi (which was charging alot less per click) There attempt to try and have i sound differnet has just confused people. SiteMatch is Inktomi Paid Inclusion..And Inktomi is now the secondary search of Yahoo...Im not sure if Site match also feeds altavista, alltheweb etc...they may just be using inktomi for the backend search for all the engine companies they bought..

If you dont know how the search engine relationship works you really shouldnt be charging clients to list them in the engines...

In my experience site match and overture just dont pull in enough traffic compared to google...bottom line not worth it...paid inclusion should really be used for large dynamic sites that have a problem getting their content in yahoo organically.. Ive noticed that despite so much of the serps page being sponsorded listing from overture or site match I still dont get the traffic or conversions I used to..

[Gary Golden]

Optimize! Optimize! Optimize!

That is all I can say!


Good Luck

[zookeeper]

I doubt there is a lot of Realtors that can afford a PPC campaign that could possibly run $9,000 per month.

That might depend. A single sale could bring the realitor a 9K commission and some branding along the way. If no one else is willing to pay, it may become cheaper for you. I feel it's not about how much you spend; it's about what is your ROI. I would gladly spend 9K if I can convert 30K/month in sales.

so if Site Match does not get a lot of participation, Yahoo! Will most likely rethink their strategy.

As incrediblehelp stated "Hasn't LookSmart proven this business model to be a failure already?". I was thinking the same, remembering the early days after L$ and MSN signed a big agreement to make you pay for inclusion then pay per click. We had over 100 sites submitted in MSN (thru L$) before this agreement and had to start paying .15/click on all of them. I think they gave us $10 in "free" clicks per domain or something like that as a grandfather clause for sites submitted before the agreement. Our advertising cost went thru the roof, while we were still in the same positions, getting the same number of sales, but just spending an a$$load more.

I cursed L$ from that day forward as did many other webmasters. We simply removed our sites and quit giving them any money. Although that happened a few years back, I still loved that day when MSN dropped L$ :-)

[VegasMack]

Zookeeper,

• Quote:
  That might depend. A single sale could bring the realitor a 9K commission and some branding along the way. If no one else is willing to pay, it may become cheaper for you.

That $9,000 per month would take a $300,000. sale at 3% providing you were not a split with the Broker (which most of us are). From the time someone visits the site and actually buys and closes the transaction is approximately 90 days(that is when you actually get paid). This is providing you made the sale.

So far as “Branding” that would be a good deal for a National Company with franchise operators.

• Quote:
  I feel it's not about how much you spend; it's about what is your ROI.

As I stated earlier the ROI isn’t there in Real Estate.

Lets assume you do make that sale and it closes in 90 days. Now you have $27,000. out for advertising, you have grossed $9,000. You split that with your Broker 75/25. And you have your other operating cost, fees and dues. You are only in the hole about $17K.

• Quote:
  I would gladly spend 9K if I can convert 30K/month in sales.

As would I. If in fact you know of a way for me to gross 30k/month I will pay YOU the $9,000 as a consultant. You can probably use it more than Yahoo! ;-)

Thanks for all the GREAT Posts guys!

-Mack

[richmar]

I too was using Positiontech for Inktomi inclusion. At present, our home page is still showing well in Yahoo, but no other pages. My recommendation is that if you have several deep pages you want to appear in Yahoo, register those pages only. That is my plan of action.

BTW, does anyone know if Inktomi listings are still being utilized by any search engine or portal?

Richmar

[damarzee]

I have two sites that use Overture through Position Tech and I have yet to understand or see why I spent nearly $200 to have these sites listed?

Actually, I only signed on because I thought there might be some level of control or some level of choosing click price, but there appears to be no level of control at all.


I paid the setup fees and then placed $50 in each account. There was no option for rate, so it's 30cents a click. There is no place anywhere to select search terms, so I can only assume they are taken from your Meta tags. The sites have been listed since April and have only generated 11 hits through Overture, yet they get plenty of traffic from other search engines.

Previously, using Inktomi, the $39.00 per year inclusion fee provided hundreds of monthly visitors. I don't see the value of Overture.

Bottom line, I am wondering just what the $97.00 balnce just sitting there is doing for me. Either I am missing something that is poorly explained by Position Tec or I just don't understand Overtures real function.

Any Thoughts?

The two sites I have listed with them are:
Dreams Alive Magazine -http://www.dreamsalivemagazine.com and
Photo Web Ads - http://www.photowebads.com

Thanks!

David

[edhan]

It will be a success IF I get my ROI from the sales otherwise a failure. My main concern with advertising is will I be getting sales. If yes then I will still continue my advertisement. If not then I will move on with other methods.

Edward