ctabuk
"So I'll tell you what I'll do. Let you go your way and I'll go mine."

I have been waiting for this quote to come up.

I am on neither side of this disagreement. Just extremely happy to read the above sentence.
Well Done!

__________________

I found this in a blog comment by graywolf a.k.a. Michael Gray. Does this help anyone?

I haven't visited this thread in a while and I just want to say I was not trying to make anyone angry or pick on WPW, just venting on on the fact that some feel the Google toolbar in some way reflects actual PR of a website. The copious threads at WPW should be answered and Mike I think you can tell, I am there to answer the most basic and intricate SEO questions on WPW.

Maybe posting a well written sticky thread on the topic could help. The problem is we all may not agree on its content. I will think about this more.

My rant on this topic was nothing more than that. I am sorry if I upset anyone, but I feel strongly on this PR topic.

As you all know I love WPW and I want it to grow and grow!

Also I am not a fragile flower online and can take as much as I dish out. I never take these discussions (not arguments) personally. I feel there is to much value and knowledge to let someone's opinions turn me off of any thread in WPW.

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Incredible, You forgot to add "Puny Little green bar"

Put it this way, If I were to charge $10,000 to make your site a PR6(TBPR) with no guarantee of traffic or for the same $10,000 make you #3 in google for your keywords what would you choose?

PR or traffic?

Once people have to put money where there mouth is, their tune changes quick!!!

Please feel free to slap the monkey. This is only my opinion.

What does help is substantiated facts - hard to do when playing the G guessing game.
Keep in mind that every WPW member is not necessarily in the seo/sem world or biz. Some of us are here to gain knowledge for our own eBiz ventures. If I can get information and opinions about the G tool bar PR then this forum served its purpose.

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There are a lot of KW and link spammers. If you used USD 10 000 to improve content and get inbound links with foccused anchor text from related sites and the page was found on one of the first SERP pages with a strong green light, that may in the long run be much better than using an expensive KW spamming technigue to increase your SERP position to the first result page with a more or less irrelevant hit.

In the end the question is meaningless unless you are more concret.

The green light is a direct measure of offpage and an indirect measure of onpage content. In my view, it is an advantage that is not updated daily like internal pagerank. During the different Google dances, that was more or less the situation.

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So that is more important to you than the explanation that Google gives on the toolbar:

PageRank is Google's measure of the importance of this page.

We have two different messages. I prefer to believe the last. Note, I have collected links since 1995, and IMO there is a relation between the green light and the quality of a page / site.

I have also noted more and more spam (financial related sites) high on the SERP's.

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Hello Kujun,

I believe that what matters is internal PR and trust rank that allows a site to rank on anchor text.


Why do you need do have the green light? You spend USD 10 000 to improve content and get inbound links with focused anchor text from related sites and YOU RANK. That's all you need. What's the difference if you are PR2 or PR6?

It's o.k. to discuss PageRank and I'll certainly read your comments.

I believe that the Hilltop algorithm has replaced the PageRank algorithm. That's why relevance and authority pages are so important. Perhaps PageRank works in conjuction. Who knows as everything Google is subject to change without notice.

To me the Hilltop algorithm sounds like one of th n maximization algorithms out there. If the aim is to find the maximum (hilltop) of a function with n variables, good algorithms nearly always find the same global maximum. It may be more problematic to find the correct local maximum.

What the relation between that maximum and (the) PageRank (indicator) is, may only be known to some people inside Google. It may be an output of the same maximization problem, though (unknown to outsiders).

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As explained above, ceteris paribus, more webmasters may link to your page / site if the green indicator is closer to 10 than to 0.

Read what I wrote above and in the thread that was closed.

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Google says: Toolbar PageRank is for entertainment purposes only
-----------------------------------------------------
Can someone tell me on which "google.com" page this entertainment statement is listed?

Who is JohnGalt other then a name on a screen?
Is the unnamed Google rep a Google agent authorized to speak for Google?
The forum thread Incred referred to is dated 12/2004 and some unknown user quoted an unknown source statement from an unknown Google rep. Don't believe everything you read, especially on an internet forum. He said/she said is not the same as FACT - especially when experienced posters are concerned with forum credibility.

Just my 2 cents. You guys continue to duke it out.

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Amen.

I don't only believe that the green bar is a trust rank score, rather I am sure about that. PERIOD!

When someone does not agree, may freely express his feelings, but that will not touch my feelings. :)

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Is that a problem?

Quote after quote? What do you mean by dogmatic in this discussion? That is your meaning and unless you give more meaning to the concept, I prefer to disregard it.

That is your choice. Life is meeting, life is fare well. If you leave WPW, do not use me as an scapegoat. I could have left because of your censorship. The discussion in this thread show that WPW memebers have different views on Pr.

Before you leave (me): Can you document from Google itself that the PRank indicator is for entertainment purposes only. That is very interesting since that will prove that Google is not credible on their explanation of the green indicator.

I go on holiday, so I hope you answer in three weeks.

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1. What are your facts?
2. What are your proofs?

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Facts? Proof? LOL. I love you Kgun.

Does the green bar get you more traffic? No.

Does the green bar get you more sales? No.

Has Google themselves every said that this green bar in ANYWAY represented real page rank? No.

Sure the link I posted to was from the forum of SEW, a very credible spot. The fact that is was from 2 years ago is even worse for green bar supporters.

If you just visits some of the 1000s other threads, from other forums, reading what other experts have to say you can form your own opinion.

The fact is neither of us have real proof of the green bars importance and we wont until Google actually comments more on this subject.

The only proof that I can easily offer to justify my stance on this subject are the millions of websites that rank high without any green bars on them. This in its self tells any one with a human brain that Google representation of PR is updated internally everyday and NOT on the toolbar. Like I said many times above and in other threads. So again I will type it out for Kgun to hopefully read:

Google internal PR is different than what you see on the green toolbar. The toolbar is not a true representation of what the pages actual PR is. The actual PR is calculated and re-calculated every day internally. The toolbar is updated 2-3 times a year. So you tell me why in the world would I give any credit to that green bar?

Is there something I am missing here? Why is this so hard to understand?

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I think I asked these same questions a few posts up but I'm not holding my breath for any certifiable answers.

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I prefer to be loved by a lady :-)

Yes it may if you read what I write. I have given a hint above.

I have seen a lot of socalled experts in my 58 year life. In Norway, there is a story about the feather that became 5 hens. The proof in the link you gave is an example of such a story. Do I need to tell you the whole story?

Was that the point in the thread that was closed by ctabuk?

Have I given another impression? Did you skim or read the thread that was closed?

Please read what I write before you post. I will not answer another post from you before where it is obvious that you have not read what I write.

I go on holiday, so it may take time before I comment on your new proofs and facts. Have a nice summer.

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No, ctabuk and incrediblehelp found some feathers (links) and have started a hen farm. They are planning to post a sticky about it :-)

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Language barrier, maybe that has to be it. I will try again.

Websites rank high all of the time without any toolbar PR and even sometimes with grayed out toolbar. The stupid thing doesn't work, matter or should even exist in a real marketers mind.

Websites rank all of the time without toolbar PR
Websites rank all of the time without toolbar PR
Websites rank all of the time without toolbar PR
Websites rank all of the time without toolbar PR

Is that clear enough and proof enough? I think some should get off their high horses and provide some proof where toolbar PR actual does matter when websites are being ranked.

I could list hundreds of websites that rank without toolbar PR over those that do, but what would that prove? You could do a search yourself and see this.

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You have changed your format and that is an indication of problems.

My subject is not:

PageRank ==> SERP ranking, even if I have given a hint on that too.

Can you please read the thread that ctabuk closed? If you search kgun on WPW with the right KW's, you will discover:

I have made posts where

1. I make it clear that PageRank should not be mixed with ranking on the SERP's.

2. I know the difference between the green indicator and internal pagerank. I remember at least one post where I commented on something Chris worte and made that clear months ago.

Yes, a lot of spam.

Search with

forex

in the KW's.

A low PageRank is a warning to me.

There is a correlation between high ranking on the SERP's, low pagerank and financial related sites that I personally regard as spam.

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No PR means spam? News stories are spam? Fresh content is spam? That point is laughable.

OK obviously I missing something. What are you saying about the toolbar then Kgun? I very clear on what I am saying about it. The toolbar is junk and not worth much conversation. Especially here on WPW as I have posted. Of course if someone posts that their is value to the toolbar then I must comment on those threads as it is my job to do so. Please post what you are saying about toolbar value now once and for all. If you just post here instead of referring back to other comments or threads I think it would be helpful for everyone reading through this so there are not as confused as I am.

You asked for proof and I have provided proof on how the PR on the toolbar means little. Please tells us why you feel it does, exactly.

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Do you understand multiple correlation?

1. High ranking on the SERP's AND
2. Low PageRank at (least for financial related sites that I know best)

are a red light to me personally. Note my underline. A high PageRank (often a mature site) is an indication of a reliable site / page. May be finance is a special business, subject to a lot of spammers.

For example: To me personally, (and I have read what you and Webnauts write in his directory post,) I do not link to a financial site without contact information or only an email address. The chance of it being a spam site, is so big that I do not use my spare time on it.

To make a long story in that thread short, I write that the green indicator may be used as an indicator of eProperty value.

And I pose the question in that thread:
Can the pagerank indicator in the future as it is getting better, be compared to a rating system for funds? In other words, an more or less automated rating system for web sites?

If so, it is definitely an advantage that it is not updated daily like internal pagerank. You would not invest in a fund that changed Standard & Poor rating every hour or day?

ctabuk reduced that thread to a subject about

PageRank ==> SERP ranking.

I repeat. That was not my point in that thread. You can at least read my first post in that thread.

I do not comment on that.

It is enough with one ball in the air. But I can repeat once more.

There is a correlation between high SERP ranking AND low pagerank as measured by the green indicator, and spam as I personally see it, at least for financial related sites.

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Understood KGun, I will stop pushing the PR = High SERP point. At least we agree on this.

So knowing that the toolbar number is not an accurate number as a true indicator of Google internal PR, why would you feel that it is a indicator of property value? The toolbar PR is not accurate right now. It is updated only 2-3 times a year.

So again why do you feel there is any value to the toolbar PR number if it is not accurate?

Also your comparisons to money market trends, ratings and website values is not feasible or helpful here. They are two different animals all together. Also the fact you focus only on financial websites, might also be hurting you "assumptions" about the toolbar PR value.

The Google toolbar is in no way an accurate "rating" system for website value as you seem to be trying to point out. Sure into time Google may change their mind and make this green bar mean something, but right not it is not.

Ands finally high rankings in the SERPs and low PR is not an indicator of SPAM. Once again this a silly assumption.

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Google Toolbar is just a distraction - I'm with incrediblehelp on this. I've said this before too

"I bet those of you who have the toolbar installed look at the PR on EVERY page you visit!!!!!!!"

You've got to stop! - if you are one of those who do look at the PR on every page you visit then you have been suckered into the scam (lol). You have been officially 'Googleised' rofl

Uninstall it NOW =)

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At least one person in this thread has understood my point about SERP ranking and PageRank.

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Fine.

Do you think MorningStars fund rating is accurate? Then you and I would have been rich.

May be analogy is a better word?

No, I have studied too many economic models and rating systems to say that it is accurate. The question is, is it better than no indicator? To the work I do, it is. When did you see an accurate economic prediction? When did you see an accurate weather forecast? Does that mean that you do not need weather forecasts? Are weather forecasts better today than 50 / 10 years ago? You can measure the temperature in a point on the earth, even if it is the outcome of a very complex dynamic system. You do not need to know every factor in the system to get a reliable measure of temperature.

Let us say.
1. The SERP's are an outcome of a maximization problem with 250 variables?
2. The PageRank is an outcome of a sub problem with 10 variables?

What do you think is easiest to spam? Depending on your answer, do you see how the little green indicator may help you judge a hit on the SERP?

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Surfers all over the world, unite and install the Google toolbar with the little green light. Look at that light and you are not so easily fooled.

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I believe that one can break the "pagerank wall" by purchasing high pagerank links. W3C has PR9 Links for $1000 a year.

A lot of WPW members are more concerned about their web pages SERP (Search Engine Rank Position) and don't focus on PageRank. In contrast to PageRank, Google’s Hilltop algorithm determines the relevance and importance of a web page's Serp Position. Many people believe that this is internal page rank.

Google states that PageRank is the importance of a page. Many feel that PageRank is not reliable because it is not upated frequently and may be inaccurate.

If PageRank works for you, by all means use it. Every industry is different in the levels of web page SEO.

To my opinion, there is possibly a misunderstanding within the SERPS and PR issues here.

I would tell that SERPS are based on diverse factors, as for example, age of domain and of its content, keyword density, etc.

About PR, as Kgun mentioned above, it is a kind of seal of eProperty, which I would say there, it is an issue of a web site credibility, etc, based on some Trust Rank factors (algorithms), which seem though not to be mature for serving 100% its purpose.

If PR has an influence on SERPS, I can only say so far that it does, but it seems not to be one of the major factors.

Just my two Webnauts Net cents.

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(For today's episode, bj will play the part of Tubby, chief WPW rabblerouser and torch thrower.)

Hey, lOOk at THESE links . . .

/. discusses Google ToolBar Pagerank

Google Toolbar Pagerank Demystified

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Well hell then, are we "above" all the newbies that don't understand the basic facts of life here?

Where were we, Where were you 4, 6, 8, 10, years ago? Does anyone really see that position as threatening?

There is plenty of advice to go around without challenging secure positions here!.

I don't make very many outright plugs for my own site, but let's make sure and offer an extended hand to newbies here:

Newbie Guide

Ken

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I got a 'mentioned in dispatches' always good to see.

I realy do not have any great opinion on page rank.
My main beef is about 'concentration' I do have a beef about concentration on one aspect in detriment to the miriad of other parts that create a holistic approach. I see huge folly in sacrificing the foundations and walls a website and ensuring that it has rainwater tanks connected to every room of the house, knowing that the occupants will simply freeze when the wind blows or burn when the sun shines, and be condemned to an existance of surviving on a diet of water. Page rank and google in my opinion is not a lot more than a rainwater tank. Some web sites that live in arid areas can survive quite well on the rainfall.

I feel that buiding on a river bank with fertile soil, plenty of sunshine and a healthy breeze can make a water tank an optional extra. A supply of tank water is a good thing.

I have always intended to say in regards to most google questions, be holistic. If placing a rainwater tank on the footpath to your front door stops other visitors calling in, move it. . Things like not linking to another site because it has no page rank to me sounds silly. I think it is akin to placing a rainwater tank in front of your front door so that a visitor carrying the fresh rabbit cannot find his way to your kitchen.

page rank is one aspect - Lets not ignore it - Lets not worship it

? - is someone who likes analogies an analgesic.

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1. Fully agree.
2. That is far from the same as not finding it easier to link to a PageRank 8 than a PageRank 0 site / page.

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So many chips, so few shoulders.

Please place IMO all over the place...

Toolbar PR is a worthless indicator. It is a glimpse into the past within a medium where 1 year is a lifetime.

Toolbar PR is NOT Google's measure of the importance of a page or site. Google is not a registered voter. It is their tally of what people like ME think of a site or a page. I like MY sites a whole lot better than anyone elses. (insert smilie sticking it's tounge out here)

I really don't have much issue with lots of PR threads personally. The fact that they come up so much is a pretty good indication of the myths about it.

It does make me a bit "cranky" when folks like to point out that it's somehow what Google thinks about a website when clearly it is not.

PR in it present form is worthless.

Dave

<edit to add for kgun>
Yes, the S&P ratings would be far more useful if they re-evaluted what they were rating every day.
</edit>

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That may be the difference between the preferences of a long term investor and a trader. How many rich traders do you know?

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No, it's the difference between someone who uses current data to aid in their decision making and those who rely on history. Past performance is not indicative of current or future earnings/income kgun.

Toolbar PR is past performance.

Dave

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You can have current fresh data on different frequencies, seconds, minutes, 5 miuntes, hours, days, weeks, months, quarters, years.

You and I can not even agree on frequencies.

Do you work for Google since you know what Google says about their toolbar so well?

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LOL! kgun

A year ago when it comes to the internet is antiquated. Things that happened on Google prior to BD is outdated.

No, I doubt that we'll be able to come to an agreement on what is "current fresh" since you're so eager to rely on the past.

Another thing for you to ponder...

Are you aware the toolbar can and does display Google PR for sites that have been banned or deindexed?

Dave

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And while we're discussing "freshness"...

It's not a matter of how often Google "refreshes" their tool bar data, it's a matter of how often the data they use to "tally" PR is refreshed.

What kind of frequency do you think the links passing PR are re-evaluated by the people that place them?

What criteria did they use then?

What criteria do they use now?

Is what was linked to then, the same now?

Since you're so fond of comparing toolbar PR to the S&P ratings...

Does the S&P use financial data from years ago to determine current ratings?

Google does for PR.

This is the stuff PR is made of and in it's present form is antiquated, out of date, useless information IMO.

Dave

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Why not for a while? May be the decision to ban the site was too fast. The same will happen for a Fund rating. It will take time before degrading is published. There are billions of internet pages, but thousands of funds.

Have you noted that there is a clear relation between SERP ratings for competitive KW's and PageRank?

Do you mean this is nonsense:
PageRank is Google's measure of the importance of this page.

If it is nonsense, then what about Googles credibility?

Print it out and put it on the wall in front of you.

P.S. My best financial links (often PR 4 links or above) are the good old ones. So much spam pops up, that even noisetrader crankydave could be buried in noise. :-)

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Do you pay me for the Doctoral thesis? I require USD 501/hour. That is about 50 % of what the best Norwegian lawyers require and I have about three times more education than them and some top ratings in
- Nonlinear Partial Differential equations (Graduate level in Mathematics).
- Chaos theory and fractal mathematics with an application to finance (Graduate level).
- Mathematical finance. Dynamic asset pricing. Dr. Scientlevel.

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Well I'd certainly expect Kgun to be qualified in Chaos Theory LOL

But I digress off topic. But there again, ...........

to be continued

Where was I? PageRank - a Gimmick - designed as a way of getting more searches through Google.

Does PR have a value???

Yes, to anyone selling a site with a high PR to somebody gullible enough to believe in it.

CTABUK self edit
From here I went to my G Mail Account - the PR was 2

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Yes and it could be spam / scam. He could have bought one or two IBL's from PR 10 sites.

You always have to do your own due dilligence check if you want to buy another business.

More relevant links along the left margin of MultiFinanceIT under the heading:

Due Dilligence.

There will never be a perfect rating system and there will never be a perfect world. Often the problem is:

How to make less errors than your competitors.

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May one enquire as to which post this reply is aimed at please.

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Kgun, said
"There will never be a perfect rating system and there will never be a perfect world. Often the problem is:
How to make less errors than your competitors."

Kgun. I do understand your need to allocate a value to everything. This is the way you have spent your working life. Sometime I realy do think that you do not know what an error is.

<humour>
as Kgun would probably write
what is the value of an error ?
do error values vary ?
are all errors equall ?
Could all errors be cancelled by a single 'non error' (positive) factor'?

Do all Positive factors have the same value
could positive factors be netralised by an error.
Is page rank a positive error negative factor ?
</humour>

There is no way you can allocate an accurate mathematic value to an unspecified error on a web page I have absolutely no doubt that you will argue this point, and I think I should simply say. . That This statement is correct and no discussion will be entered into.

__________________

Too much talking about ctabuk's horse, so I leave this thread. Continue in the break room.

Note the second post of that tread and my poem on page 7 that was deleted.

P.S.
Can anybody translate the Norwegian word
"Kjepphest" ("Equus Fustis Fragmentatis") to English?

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Sorry kgun, sites deindexed in December of 05 is not a matter of simply taking time. It's a matter of the indicator being unreliable.

And you have been asked repeatedly to produce verifiable examples demonstrating this to be the rule. You have not and I suggest you cannot. Verifiable instances to the contrary have been repeatedly produced. As a matter of fact, I can point you to a nice PR6 site brought to my attention elsewhere that ranks horribly despite the nice PR.

Outdated kgun. Not sure why it's so hard for you to understand. I can point to more contradictary and outdated information.

Don't know how I can make it any simpler for you...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PR not Google's measure, it is their tally. PR is the measure of those who cast votes through the links they place. Votes are not cast by Google's criteria. Google does not vote.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cut that out and paste it on the wall in front of you. Even gave you a dotted line to cut on.

Dave

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