Helping others at WebProWorld

greeneagle · #1 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 02:10 AM

I hope that no one takes offense to this posting - It is not meant that way at all!

But, this is not a private club for a few Veterans, MVP's and Moderators!

Please take the time to explain to the "newbies" and "greenies" what you mean in your postings.

Sure, I understand, but, I also read many newbie postings, as you probably do too. (hopefully anyway).

This is a public forum and I hope we can all take the view that there is an intrinsic value for all levels that we should hold in close regard.

Besides, Isn't that what this and these forums are really all about?

Sure, sometimes it is a pain in the ___ to respond in a manner that would explain in more detail, but that does not diminish peer perspective and it increases value for visitors that ususally outnumber the members.

After all don't the "Veterans", "MVP's" and "Moderators" reap enough value here to help keep these forums alive?

If not, How about raw stats for WPW?

Just a humble opinion!

Ken

minstrel · #2 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 02:30 AM

Well, you've lost me there again, greeneagle - what is it that you think needs more explaining?

ronniethedodger · #3 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greeneagle

Just a humble opinion!

I disagree.

bubbasmurf · #4 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 09:35 AM

I agree what Ken said because some newbies may not post because they feel they might be slammed against the back wall for asking.

ldyguique · #5 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 10:48 AM

This is directed to the discussion of "full disclosure answers." One of the advantages of a forum is that it's very active and "now." It's a useful and uptodate quick reference for very current issues. It is a royal pain to read through older forum threads trying to find information that may have been posted 100 times in various places and by various people. Many topics are started and never have a followup posting. Using the search function is only marginally successful, as it just leads one into threads that may or may not go anywhere at all.

I know that I've learned more in exploring both rlouse's and greeneagle's websites than in most of the postings, in terms of "catching myself up to speed" on terminology and howtos. Additionally, the occasional link here and there to a recommended site have been helpful, i.e., http://www.bruceclay.com/. All of these have become favorite links for me.

I think that it might be time for the beginning of an article archive on some of the major topics or issues.

And, I agree with greeneagle and bubbasmurf's assessments that it's very daunting to post in any of the non-break forums as this site definitely has elements of being a private club with the majority of postings being done by less than 30 people, many of whom have formed obvious friendships and digress off-topic very quickly.

minstrel · #6 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubbasmurf

some newbies may not post because they feel they might be slammed against the back wall for asking

I suppose some may be hesitant, although that's going to be true no matter what. I think if you browse through the posts here you'll find many asking quite basic questions, including questions about acronyms if that's what greeneagle was objecting to - in recent memory I remember two without straining: "what does "PR" mean?" and "what does "IPO" mean?". Both were answered promptly and politely and I don't think reading thosr that anyone would get the impression that asking a basic question would get you "slammed against the back wall".

But we are speculating about the trigger for greeneagle's comment - perhaps we should wait for him to clarify his comments before jumping to conclusions. To be frank, it seemed more to me that he had a question himself about something - if so, all this talk about discouraging "newbies" is irrelevant.

On another point,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldyguique

it's very daunting to post in any of the non-break forums as this site definitely has elements of being a private club with the majority of postings being done by less than 30 people, many of whom have formed obvious friendships and digress off-topic very quickly

I agree that we have become a bit lax lately in off-topic comments - I for one am trying to take some steps to correct that and to pay more attention which posts I am actually responding to. On the other point, about friendships that form here, I think that's true but I don't see that as a bad thing at all and not something I would personally like to see changed - certainly, at least some new arrivals seem to add themselves quickly into the mix when they are so inclined - you and Ron are two that come to mind fairly quickly.

rlrouse · #7 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 11:46 AM

I am always happy to clarify my posts and answer questions when asked. We were all "newbies" at one time and we all learn the same way: by reading and asking questions.

My experience here has shown this to be universal among most of the participants.

janeth · #8 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 01:31 PM

I'm a newbie here and I really like it.

I'm not sure what post we are talking about that would bother someone that was new.

As a matter of fact I think you will find the people that do a lot of posting and play around a lot are the same people that bend over backwards to help out the newbies.

The only people I have ever seen come in an start attacking people are most of the time people that post very little.

Just my two cents

ronniethedodger · #9 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 01:33 PM

I agree with ldyguigue that we do tend to stray off topic. And that there are freindships, in some cases, alliances that are formed between the members. But this tends to happen in the real world at company meetings or seminars anyway.

The PR question was actually a post by a new member. And the IPO was a question in the middle of popular thread.

Truth be known, I did not want to ask that brave question. I had no idea what in the heck IPO meant when a certain 'newbie' bravely stepped up and finally asked it. So in retrospect, even I have problems with a lot of the discussions going on here also. But if you read the immediate response (I was onto it like white on rice) I just as much told the guy that I was in the dark about it...and offered my interpretation of IPO which I managed to glean from the that thread. Then someone posted a reply pretty much affirming my thoughts.

Some people will ask the questions, even the new members. Some people will not, even the older members. And this, again, is not unlike the real life.

The problem with making new people feel comfortable here at WebProWorld (WPW) is not the straying off-topic, the freindships, the acronyms, talking above the heads of others, debates that may appear hostile to the outsider....none of those. Everyone is guilty of this one too, myself included, and that there is a specific Forum here at WPW called New Member Introductions.

Run down the list and look at that long, long, long line of zeroes in the # of Replies column. When was the last time any of us actually responded to a New Introduction, even just to say "Welcome", "If you have any questions, then...", or "Don't feel bad if..."

And that is where part of bubba's statement applies the best here "some newbies may not post because they feel they might be slammed against the back wall for asking.". But not that they will be slammed against the back wall as he put it, but right from Day One they are being ignored, unlistened too, and left with a feeling of unwanted-ness. Ken's opinion is kind of right....but for all the wrong reasons.

ldyguique · #10 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 03:10 PM

There are several states of newbieness, some newbies are within all. There are newbies to the general online experience and/or computers. There are newbies to website design/development. There are newbies to e-business. There are newbies to promoting that business, which would include a range of issues from products, alliances, and/or optimization. There are interntionally-based newbies who are struggling to understand English, internet jargon, and/or slang. There are newbies to this particular site and its forums. None of these states of newbieness indicates a general lack of knowledge on any number of other topics or issues or with life itself.

The one thing that we cannot help a newbie with is the undercurrent of angst at "joining in," other than by being friendly, helpful, and non-judgmental. In short, what we need ourselves. I wouldn't still be hanging around if I'd not found this to be a welcoming forum overall. But, some don't hang around. Although, I do see that topics are read by a larger group than those who post.

I do feel that each of us has to bring a willingness to do background reading, research, or knowledge-gathering in order to move beyond rash beginner. The student must be willing to learn, which means either formal classes or doing some secondary reading, through hardcopy books, magazines, or through the internet. One cannot expect an expert to drop everything and rush forward to fill one's head up with all that the expert has learned through diligent effort and the school of hard knocks.

Many of the experts in here are competing. Real life competing for the almighty dollar. That they can set aside their normal reticence about giving up secrets is incredibly special.

Newbies have to do their part to become more than newbie.

minstrel · #11 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 03:51 PM

The reality is that all of us were newbies to the WebProWorld forums at some point and most of us probably took a while to read through some of the threads and get a feel for the place before posting. That was certainly true for me, with the exception of my first "please review my site" post. One reason for this is that, perhaps like some others, I had been to forums in the past where the posts were so vicious and demeaning that I had no interest in participating - the reason I kept coming back to WPW was because I saw a different attitude here.

I think if you scan through many of the threads here at WPW (WebProWorld), you'll see that in fact many of them are started by newbies asking a question - and then the 30 or so people that ldyguique to try to answer that question. So yes... it may be that those 30 people are doing the most posting but often it's in an effort to help out someone who has just arrived on the scene.

A second point made by ldyguique is worth noting here: those "0 replies" posts. These are most evident in "Site Review" (and perhaps Link Exchange although I don't go there very often), where the sheer number of posts means that a post now may be on a back page in an hour some days.

I do make an effort when I have a little extra time to go through looking for those "0 reply" posts and, try to respond when I can answer the question. I would urge all of you to try to do the same - and yes, that "Welcome to WebProWorld" message, even if that's all you can post at the moment, may well make a positive difference to that person's view of WPW.

ronniethedodger · #12 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minstrel

... One reason for this is that, perhaps like some others, I had been to forums in the past where the posts were so vicious and demeaning that I had no interest in participating - the reason I kept coming back to WPW was because I saw a different attitude here.

I ditto that feeling. Another thing that is unique about WPW too is that fact that outside of few posts from time to time, pretty much the staff at WPW (our hosts) pretty much stand back and let us kind of go our own way with this the whole shebang here.

They do not interfere or micro-manage. They leave it, for the most part, in our hands. Things have a way of working themselves out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minstrel

So yes... it may be that those 30 people are doing the most posting but often it's in an effort to help out someone who has just arrived on the scene.

30 today, 60 tomorrow.

One thing that shocked me the other day, was that I noticed for the first time that this Forum is actually just a baby. It has only been up for a little over 6 months. My first impression of this place was that it had been around for a couple of years....and I can only assume that that is attributable to a lot of the people that are here reading this right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minstrel

A second point made by ldyguique is worth noting here: those "0 replies" posts. These are most evident in "Site Review" (and perhaps Link Exchange although I don't go there very often), where the sheer number of posts means that a post now may be on a back page in an hour some days.

Ahem...actually I brought that up and it was in reference to the New Member Introductions forum. After looking at the Site Review forum too, I can see the same applies there as well.

These areas are often a new persons first areas to post to. By our neglect of not dropping a quick line of "Welcome" in at least the Introduction forum sends a message to these people that is more stand-offish and elitist than any of the arguments that prompted Minstrel to move this into it's own topic for discussion (Good call btw (<-by the way) my beanied friend).

Quote:

Originally Posted by minstrel

I do make an effort when I have a little extra time to go through looking for those "0 reply" posts and, try to respond when I can answer the question. I would urge all of you to try to do the same - and yes, that "Welcome to WebProWorld" message, even if that's all you can post at the moment, may well make a positive difference to that person's view of WPW.

Can't argue or add anything to that at all.....except "Ah c'mon, do I really have to?" (I am kidding....get a grip people...it is a joke) I would put up one of these ;0) following that statement, but ...well I will leave that one at that, eh? ;0)

minstrel · #13 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronniethedodger

Quote:

Originally Posted by minstrel

A second point made by ldyguique is worth noting here: those "0 replies" posts.

Ahem...actually I brought that up and it was in reference to the New Member Introductions forum. After looking at the Site Review forum too, I can see the same applies there as well.

My apologies, Ron... I have to confess that I can't keep up with all of the forums here and "New Member Introductions" is one I rarely get time to visit - between the search engines ones, The Break Room, and occasional forays into IT, Internet Industry, Site Design, email Marketing, and Site Review, by the time I'm done there, I'm really done...

ronniethedodger · #14 (**permalink**) 12-27-2003, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minstrel

I have to confess that I can't keep up with all of the forums here and "New Member Introductions" is one I rarely get time to visit

Me too. But that is why I brought it up previously, and you and I are not the only two of the 30 who do not visit it.

I have welcomed a couple since I have been here, but they were in my area of the business or said something in their greeting that caught me eye and thought was interesting. And, then there is my buddy Ace -- but that is another topic on it's own! ;0)

The only reason I brought it up is I tried to look at it from their viewpoint, and what I have experienced. They post in the Intro area and the Review My Site area....the former they get ignored, and the latter they sometimes get torn apart. If they do post in the other forums -- they go largely un-noticed and are ignored again.

I was at another forum once, and right after posting to the Introduction area you were bombarded with welcome messages from about 20 different people. It really made you feel good to see all of that. Of course, as time went on and I started to welcome new people myself...I began to notice that the welcome messages were all the same (paste jobs) but hey it is the thought that counts.

ronniethedodger · #15 (**permalink**) 12-28-2003, 12:02 AM

I just saw this little thing pop up today.

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic...ghlight=#55569

Check it out. Thought it to be pertinent to this topic.

This all transpired in the course of one day (today) too, which is really amazing. Way to go Minstrel!!!

I pass the beanie back to you! ;0) (and no, I am not explaining this remark....hehehehehe)

Jurgen · #16 (**permalink**) 12-28-2003, 01:02 AM

Now wait a minute here!

Here we are in a forum for "googles". The thread was split and you all talk about that "newbies" are turned away (or not) by responses of only a few members.

Let me tell you my story.... please..... :-)

I ran into this forum by accident. Great I thought, I submit my site for review, I wanted and needed input on my site. Guess what, no response at all. Well, so far so good... I kept on reading and learning from ALL the responses I looked into. And believe me, quiet a few gave me the answers I was looking for.

Another thing I wanted to point out is, most of the people in here are from "website", "webdesign", "computer...blahblah" sites which, when I look at these sites, are negleting everything what is propossed by you guys. That certainly scares me alot paying money for "those", wanting to sell me their help with my website needs.

Well, again, I love this forum and I am learning a lot from you guys. I did post some messages in the past trying to help other "newbies" with there needs as far as my knowledge allowed me. And I will continue to do so. In the course of reading and replying you get to know people (even so you don't personly know them), and appreciate there input and answers.

Janeth comes to mind, she is pretty much focused on link exchange and keywords. I totally aggree with her, and thank her for opening my eyes in that direction.

Ok, I will stop now.... What I wanted to say, many people are reading this forum, but just a few people are participating in the conversation. Is this bad???? I don't think so....

Jurgen
www.absolutelyfabulousflowers.com

ronniethedodger · #17 (**permalink**) 12-28-2003, 02:16 AM

So Jurgen, what you are saying is...although nobody here answered your questions directly, you got your answers indirectly through other threads started by other people?

You also gleaned through piles of responses, made by several or more individuals. Upon doing so, you came to know some of these people as far as their knowledge in certain areas and started to make your own judgements of what was good and what was bad advice.

You basicly used common sense and sifted thru the bull and not so bull (is that a sentence?) and you did it without anyone holding your hand along the way. You pieced it all together like a puzzle.

Now while this place may not be perfect. The fact is if people are here to actually learn, then they will learn. I don't think that we are doing them any favors in catering to their "freshness" on any given area or topic. Talk to them like you would talk to anyone else normally...if they have a question or do not understand it, they will ask.

I liken this to those parents who goo-goo talk to there cute little Willie til he is of age to go to Kindergarten....the poor kid gets this urge and raises his hand..."yes Willie?" and Willie says "I weewee need to wee-wee weewee bad."

greeneagle · #18 (**permalink**) 12-28-2003, 04:32 AM

Again, I want to reiterate the fact that this original post was not intended to be overly critical or to bash anyone in particular. I believe a little controversy can go a long way in getting answers that everyone wants and in generating traffic for a TOP INFORMATION SOURCE ON THE INTERNET!

I have been engaged in Research and Development ALL MY LIFE, working with 1000s of engineers, marketers and Fortune 500 leaders and I can definitely affirm this fact:

Education is applicable across all disciplines! A good R&D team or forum can bounce ideas off each other, which feeds a continuum that gets to the meat of the matter. Learning, by nature, is achieved at levels, and the truly wise can apply learning at any level across all disciplines, with the realization that it only requires translation of the language and terms used.

With this in mind:

At any given time, visitors outnumber members in a 2-4 to 1 ratio in these forums. Most are looking for some kind of help, definition or trying to relegate in-depth issues.

One responsibility that those of us that have been engaged in Internet design and commerce for some time have, is that we accurately portray (even through debate) present and future realities ------ NOT JUST WHAT OUR PAST EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN!

Granted, achieving these goals is difficult in an ever changing landscape. Moving targets are hard to hit! But, I don’t believe this is an elite skeet shooters event.

Some of the discourse I have been engaged in MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE unless of course, there is a complete disconnect between perspectives from differing tenses (ie.. GOOGLE PAST - PRESENT - FUTURE).

Another thing that we MUST keep a vigilance against is “sophisticated spamming runs”. The more senior should understand exactly what I mean by; “Sophisticated Spamming Runs” “

There are several knowledgeable posters, MVPs, Moderators and so on that have quite a bit to contribute here and I am not about to mention them all. There is one though, that I will continue to go and make sure that I read every single post: Those of “excell”. He or she posts what they have to say. It is always intelligent, knowing, at the heart of the matter, concise and not at all self serving.

I understand that a good way to kill a “dead thread” is to turn it into a goof or spoof session, but I have seen this happen on more than one occasion prematurely. This is very disruptive for those of us who are sincerely seeking answers and trying to figure out how to “re-landscape our yards”.

Again “true gains” are perpetuated by healthy exchange and everyone feeling welcome to bounce ideas all around. This definitely excludes directed “digs” in other threads including the “Break Room”.

Let’s address this issue of “spamming runs” briefly, for the newbies and greenies reading this thread. It has become obvious to certain senior posters that when having an answer to everyone as "last poster", several visitors may be tempted to check out their website causing an upswing in traffic. This causes Alexa and other search engines to rank their traffic higher and YADAYADAYADA. I hope you all got that!

I sincerely hope that as we go forward that visitors understand that “argument for argument’s sake” is questionable, and go on toward posts like those of “excell”

Let’s start with a bang! ----HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

Ken