This is exactly what I was trying to say in my "hopeless case" post. It was not a personal attack simply an opinion on the course of the argument.It is pointless to go on, as you will simply continue to call black white.
Coincidentally, while this thread was temporarily closed the phrase/cliche "writing on the wall" came to mind as apt. I see Dave beat me to it.
I won't be posting to this thread again nor will I argue the point in another thread with these participants.
Time will tell the tale better than I (or Dave), though I suspect the point won't be conceded unless the ODP actually folds, something I've already said is unlikely for a very long time.
My words were, "a long, slow and protracted decline."