seo company tactics

[pagetta]

I did post about this a few days ago - a company were offering us an seo service to increase our IBLs and I was worried about the validity of this.

We have now met with the company, and it would turn out I had their product misinterpreted.

They build a proxy-site within their home site full of our keywords. Their software then recognises very specified keywords in google and brings up this proxy-search page, within 2 or 3 weeks, on google's first page,with our company in the title and description, and when clicked on it has an automatic redirect to our site.

Now, I realise this is spamming of sorts, but not complete spamming, since our site would still be very relevant to our search term and not fooling searchers, but with regards to risk to our site where do we stand.

As the site that is redirecting is looked after by the SEO company, not us, would that have a potentially negative effect on their proxy-site or on us. Would the prolific use of keywords on this proxy site, if considered spamming, blacklist our site or their one?

Obviously our MDs are very attracted by this 'too good to be true' offer, but as we alll know, if something seems too good to be true, it normally is.

Problem is that the MDs of this company are very good friends of 2 of the MDs here, so as a relatively new addition to the company, I do not want to cause offence or stir trouble.

But can techniques like this be trusted? How dangerous are they to our long term future in the google's SERPs?

Please excuse if I have any technicalities mixed up, it is friday afternoon after all!

I know a lot of you will say stick to hard graft and do it yourself - I am of that opinion, and our other 2 sites do pretty well for their main keywords on google - in the top 5 results for UK searches - so I don't see why we can't do this for our 3rd site. But it is essentially not my choice. I just need some advice. If this is a seriously bad move to take out a contract with these people, how do I tell my boss that?!

Such office politics - agh! Any comments much appreciated! WPW is definitely helping me keep my job here!!

[flood6]

The techniques the company mentioned are spamming and they are "black-hat" seo. If you, your coworkers, and most importantly, the client understand the risks involved and still want to go forward, then do it.

So what are the risks? It is hard to say in cases like this because, like you mentioned, the "shenanigans" are not on your site. So the unknown factor is whether or not Google will ever penalize the client's site if it gets caught. Some will say no because Google has set policies in the past that have prevented websites being penalized for actions not on their site. Others will point out that as long as Google can reliably see that your client is paying for these services that violate their TOS, then they might act and ban your clients site.

I personally think that google would try to go after the the technology used to do these redirects and crush the companies selling these services and leave the client sites alone.

This means that the worst thing that could happen would be a waste of the money spent on these services.

To clear your concience, you should just explain to everyone involved that despite what the salesman says, there is a risk of getting the site permanantly banned and that it is unclear how big this risk is. Don't back down on this point, because it is the truth, if the salesman is unwilling to admit this, he is either a liar or has no idea what he is talking about. Either way, this might also shed some light on what kind of people you are dealing with.

Also, if your client is attracting web-savvy visitors, they may notice that they were redirected and leave the site because they felt manipulated or can see that the site is participating in "shady" SEO.

Make sure you ask the salesman if his company has a few clients or hundreds. When he says, "Hundreds", ask him for 100 demonstrations that this worked.

[globalhostinggroup]

The work of a dishonest SEO is to use methods that they Reverse engineer out of SE or loop holes or flats in the way the SE’s algorithm works. This can get you results fast (if it works) but it is a ticking time bob that may get you banned from all of the major SE and force you to start from scratch with a new site, domain and hosting.

[jimmie1_us]

You are taking a big risk! That technique of proxy with excessive key words and redirects is risky.

[mountainbuilder]

you know, i've always thought the same thing...that these techniques could get your website banned or that the big search engines will seek to punish either the company implementing the tactics, or the site that's trying to benefit from them. but i had to rethink this whole thing after i talked to a friend of mine that performs these same approaches professionally, and has been performing these tactics for the last 11 years in his business WITHOUT recourse.

i asked my friend about whether he's ever seen any negative search engine response from these tactics and he told me he NEVER has seen it. he nodded understandingly as i told him about the paranoia that's out there about these techniques, saying that "people have been saying for years that you can get banned etc. etc. but the reality is that these techniques are not punished at all."

i'd also like to point out that my friend is NOT a liar, and knows EXACTLY what he's talking about.

i'm sure there are "black hat" or "shady" techniques out there that the search engines will punish if caught, but my friend indicates this, if done correctly, is NOT one of them.

the internet is the ideal place for conspiracy theories and rumors to take root and spread like wildfire, so i'm not surprised at how easily the fear of these tactics has spread. in fact, if they work so well, fear plays to the advantage of those who practice them because it keeps the fearful from benefiting from them and swelling the market for it!

anyway, i think i know exactly what distinguishes the "black hat" technique from the legit, successful technique that isn't punished. there are two ways to do things (well, in terms of the point i'm trying to make)...here's an example with pet food:

SHADY WAY: create a proxy page packed with keywords for "purina dog food" and have it forward to your homepage which is an entire site on pets and pet products, with not one word about purina dog food on the page. this would mean that the visitor would have to click through a couple menu selections before they even got to anything about dog food, and maybe would have to click even more before they got to purina dog food.

ACCEPTABLE WAY: create a proxy page packed with keywords for "purina dog food" and have it forward to your page on purina dog food. thus, the search engine correctly led the visitor to a page which is exactly what they're looking for, which is what the search engine wants to accomplish anyway. there is nothing wrong with this approach at all, and i'm positive this is what my friend has been doing for the last 11 years without recourse.

bottom line: make sure the redirects go to a totally relevant page and you'll be fine. also, don't let fear rule your decision-making!

best wishes,
brooks

[cspelts]

ACCEPTABLE WAY: create a proxy page packed with keywords for "purina dog food" and have it forward to your page on purina dog food.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why not just optimize the page on YOUR site for "purina dog food?"

The only reason I can see it being worth optimizing a page on another server is if you specifically want to target search terms that you don't want on your page - as in your shady example above.

No thanks.

[flood6]

i'd also like to point out that my friend is NOT a liar, and knows EXACTLY what he's talking about.

Brooks, please trust that I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that these tactics will get the site hosting the doorway page banned, and possibly the client site as well.

If your friend has not had a site banned in 11 years of doing this, it is only because he has never been caught. He obviously manages the risk well and knows what he is doing.

From Google's Guidelines for Webmasters:

Don't employ cloaking or sneaky redirects.

More power to your friend and anyone else who wants to try this. Just be aware that it is risky.

[sem-seo]

Hi there

You said your friend has been doing this for years but yet you did not mention his results nor which search engines his techniques worked on.

And contrary to what your friend thinks, I've had 7 clients in the last year with ghost pages, cloaked pages, redirects, and smart pages and each was banned from several search engines and the odp, before they became my client, and one of the reasons why they became my clients.

Ethical seo with a bit of work and intelligence beats a cheat

and even a page not optimized properly, but with luck , will land in the top results before the black hat pages usually.

Another problem with your statement of your friends 11 years experience, that would put him doing SEO before the term was even discovered fully, and before Google was first online.

Name Server: NS2.GOOGLE.COM
ICANN Registrar: ALLDOMAINS.COM INC.
Created: 1997-09-15
Expires:

He may not lie but it could be a case of embellishment.


Clint

[rondo]

Another problem with your statement of your friends 11 years experience, that would put him doing SEO before the term was even discovered fully, and before Google was first online.

Clint

Yeah, thats what I thought too!


I think that if you are going to do anything worthwhile, then its worth doing it properly. SEO included.

[mountainbuilder]

wow! what an awesome response to my post! i guess i figured that my comments would not be overlooked here. anyway, i'll try to respond to everyone:

Maybe I'm missing something, but why not just optimize the page on YOUR site for "purina dog food?"

The only reason I can see it being worth optimizing a page on another server is if you specifically want to target search terms that you don't want on your page - as in your shady example above.

actually, when designing a page to be optimized, often it's quite challenging to get the best use of keywords into your actual page that will produce the best results...in other words, it might not read well to the actual visitor but would read quite well for the spider. some of the most talented SEO (but not necessarily most effective) people have found that perfect balance between good, solid content that pleases the visitor AND writing it in such a way that it produces the best results from spidering too.

having an outside page that no visitor actually sees is an easy way to design so that a spider is even happier, and a visitor doesn't have to trip over your strategized/keyword-packed sentances for the sake of SEO. and again, if you're leading the visitor to completely relevant content - serving them the exact information they're looking for from the proxy page - there's no need to worry.

the reason it's worth it to optimize a proxy page is because you have much more freedom because you're only bound by what a spider wants to "read", and can produce much better results. sure, go ahead and optimize the actual page too - i'm definitely an advocate of that too. but don't limit yourself to one method only.

Another problem with your statement of your friends 11 years experience, that would put him doing SEO before the term was even discovered fully, and before Google was first online.

Name Server: NS2.GOOGLE.COM
ICANN Registrar: ALLDOMAINS.COM INC.
Created: 1997-09-15
Expires:

just because the term wasn't discovered, doesn't mean he was not practicing these techniques or ones similar to them... there were other search engines before Google, and the fact that Google didn't pop up before 11 years ago means absolutely nothing in regards to my friend's 11 years of effective, successful SEO work.

Don't employ cloaking or sneaky redirects.

what is sneaky about designing a page that will lead the user to exactly what the user wants, and exactly the place that Google (or other engines) want their users to arrive? the answer is: nothing. if it leads a person to irrelevant content, that's what i call sneaky, and that's what Google will ban. i guarantee that's what some of the "past clients" those of you have mentioned had paid companies to do, and that's why they're suffering.

cheers,
brooks