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Thread: Evolution?

  1. #11
    WebProWorld MVP Clicken's Avatar
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    Oops!

    I tried to correct my post BUT time had expired... Dang that Admin, just who does he think he is?: If I only knew where he was, then I would give him a piece of my mind! If I only had a piece to spare. Oh, Well.


    ctabuk said...
    Both of you write beautifully, are you not forgetting one simple fact, Dinosaurs were here way before us, so the Creator changed his or her mind at some time in History?

    </ctabuk>... get the story straight:)

    Thanks ctabuk, I really should just write a book and be done with it once and for all. Think that would shut me up... Think again!


    GHG, I'll take a closer look at those monkeys on the playground later, I am suppose to be busy doing something else right now.

    That means my ghost story will have to wait, but you guys go ahead I will catch up.

  2. #12
    WebProWorld MVP jawn_tech's Avatar
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    I want to tip my hat to my friends Wen and Paul for modding this breakroom category, because I can just imagine the sunken feeling a mod has when a politics or religion category emerges. It means double the work to watch. Fortunately, this hasn't spiraled out of control (yet), and I hope those who participate - participate in fun and good spirits. Join with me in saying thanks to these two super-mods.

    Ok, back on track, here's my own take on the topic, and i know I stand alone in my views (probably). Very, very, condensed and abbreviated version (understatement).

    Dust = atoms, particles
    Time = perceived differently in linear and non-linear
    7 Days = is non-linear time
    Black holes = proof non-linear time exists
    Light = bang

    Any questions?
    Domain Name Registration and Website Hosting :: DesignerTrade

  3. #13
    WebProWorld MVP Chris's Avatar
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    Man came from monkeys? Um, yeah. Well, if that's the case, then there would be a lot more different types of monkeys around today. Or even skelletal remains/fossils. Even monkeys that are half human, so to speak. The missing link? Scientists have found a lot of different monkey bones, but that's JUST what they are: Monkey Bones!
    they have also found that their genetic makeup only differs from ours by a couple of percentage points...

    and primates are one of the (if not the) only other animals to have opposable digits.
    Former WebProWorld Admin
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  4. #14
    WebProWorld MVP jawn_tech's Avatar
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    CRich, don't talk about SEMPO board of directors like that...
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  5. #15
    WebProWorld MVP mikmik's Avatar
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    Not only is evolution a fact, it happens all the time.
    A human zgote that develops from the cleavage of and unfertilized egg is female, and men have nipples because embryos of all sexually reproducing animals are female until acted upon by hormones released from the fetus due to the y chromosome.

    In fact, in reproduction, the female does come first. Testes are descended ovaries, and all male characterisitics are dervations of inate, already present female ones.

    Also, the DNA profile is overwhelming evidence of evolution, and to have a 'theory' (I place the single quotes around theory because is it an unquestionable fact, a 'theorem') evidenced by one form of data get vinditicated so completely by a new emergemnce od empirical and in vivo evidence years later from a completely unknown new knowledge is utterly incredibley inargueable vindication

    That DNA data backs up fossil records and indications so nearly perfectly is devastating to arguements against, not for creation.

    There are so many holes in the reasoning of creation. There are unanswered questions about all the steps in fossil records can hardly be surprising, we are talking 4 billion years on climate and geologigal activity that it is amazing there are as many fossils and as complete a record as even exists now.

    I'll also, off the top of my head, tell you how feathers that 'make flight possible' can originate.

    Because flight is possible without feathers. There are bats that fly without feathers.

    There are fossil records of dinosaurs that flew without feathers. There are records of scales adapting into feathers. It is easy to see.

    What I want to know is if you place the same amount of scrutiny and weigh the comparitive amounts of evidence for evolution and 'creation', there is no contest.

    Try looking at the mountains of evidence and excruciatingly and minutely resaerched conclusions behind evolution instead of a few 'common sense' appearing contradictions.

    There are so many ways that evolution is known and shown, across many branches of science, that most do not know about the tiniest fraction of thought, research, and peer (read knowledgeable) review, criticism, and inquest.

    Even Darwin found the conclusion inescapable.

    If it is so wrong, i wait, as has ever scientist for 140 years, for the proof that evolution is wrong

    It don't happen, and there is a good reason for it. There is no reason for people, especially scientists doing research, to deny anything that is not apparently the truth. If someone was to produce credible evidence against evolution, it would make waves. It hasn't happened.

    People who worship knowledge for the sake of knowledge, and truth because understanding the truth is learning about god, and unbiasedly trying to understand nature and how it works, are the ones who Gods work, and worship Him by not denying what is so.

    It is a desire to know the truth, and that is the truth, nature is what it is, because that is what God made it. I want to know without bias what is what, and evolution is what is what. It is happening all aroound us, all the time. It is undeniable.

    IMHO :O)
    Babies don't need a vacation, but I still see them at the beach... it pisses me off! I'll go over to a little baby and say 'What are you doing here? You haven't worked a day in your life!'
    Steven Wright

  6. #16
    WebProWorld MVP mikmik's Avatar
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    Darwin's 200th Birthday will occur on February 12th 2009 -- it will also be the 150th Anniversary of the publication of his famous book "On The Origin of Species." So, together we have time to evolve a truly International Celebration to show our appreciation for the enormous benefits that scientific knowledge, acquired through human curiosity and ingenuity, has contributed to the advancement of humanity

    II. Probability and science

    I wish to draw your attention to the following three statements: 1. The earth is flat. 2. UFO's are piloted by aliens. 3. Evolution doesn't happen. And I'm going to draw your further attention to them by stating that they are all true
    Babies don't need a vacation, but I still see them at the beach... it pisses me off! I'll go over to a little baby and say 'What are you doing here? You haven't worked a day in your life!'
    Steven Wright

  7. #17
    WebProWorld MVP mikmik's Avatar
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    RELIGION AND SKEPTICISM: CAN (AND SHOULD!) SKEPTICS CHALLENGE RELIGION?

    Obviously, science in this circumstance would be just as impossible and pointless as in the above examples. And I think you all can see where this is leading. If we treat number four on this list here the same way we treated the other three, that is, if we treat the notion of a god who interferes in human affairs as an hypothesis, it should be obvious that the continued success of the postulate of objectivity and its necessary corollary of naturalism should be considered overwhelming evidence against the existence of any god who causes miracles or listens to prayer. It is, of course, negative evidence, and subject to refutation from a sufficiently compelling positive example. But so is the evidence against ESP, bigfoot, and UFO's with little green pilots. Every time we have carefully looked into the way the universe works and assumed it is telling the truth about itself, the truth appears to be that naturalism holds, and that the supernatural, if it exists, has no discernible effect on our understanding of it. The postulate of objectivity has passed every test against it. In fact, it is the single most-tested hypothesis in all of human history. The probability that any god or any other supernatural force either exists or interferes with the world is vanishingly small, and getting smaller.
    Babies don't need a vacation, but I still see them at the beach... it pisses me off! I'll go over to a little baby and say 'What are you doing here? You haven't worked a day in your life!'
    Steven Wright

  8. #18
    WebProWorld MVP mikmik's Avatar
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    Intelligent Design Is an Endangered Species
    It's survival of the fittest for theories about life on Earth, and developments this month have bolstered evolution while further undermining its critics

    In his examination, Ruse shows that there is no evidence for a designer, nor a need for a designer. He cites the vertebrate eye, for example, which intelligent design advocates say is too complex to have arisen through natural selection. On the contrary, Ruse reports. Geneticist R.J. Berry, he writes, showed at a conference last summer that the vertebrate eye could have evolved from a simple light-sensitive spot in far less time then was actually available -- 364,000 generations, about 15 times less than there actually were, according to a review of Ruse's book by Alan Batten.

    Dawkins has also noted that the eye has evolved at least 40 times independently since life began on Earth, greatly diminishing the claim that it is impossible for the eye to develop through Darwinian processes.

    And imperfections in organs such as the eye also weaken the design argument. I recently had an eye doctor assess me, for example, and learned that my previously 20/20 vision had deteriorated. And I'm not alone. Look around you and spot the spectacles.

    Rather than designed, we and other organisms appear to have been shaped by our environments, retrofitted as best as possible under the circumstances. In his review for The Globe and Mail, for example, Batten reports an excellent example: The sinus is u-shaped but isn't drained from the bottom of the u. No engineer would make such a mistake, Batten notes. But it would be expected if the sinus arose through natural selection, as previous structures would be adapted.
    Babies don't need a vacation, but I still see them at the beach... it pisses me off! I'll go over to a little baby and say 'What are you doing here? You haven't worked a day in your life!'
    Steven Wright

  9. #19
    WebProWorld MVP ctabuk's Avatar
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    Welcome back mikmik, I am sure that if thehappysmoker is reading this it will aid his recovery.
    I cannot profess your intellect I see things in a more black or white (not racially) basis. Apart from our ghost we had a unique experience many years ago.
    Our son Kevin was 5 years old and we took him to an air show, there were 20 minute flights available in a small passenger plane, we took Kevin for his first flight, after about 15 minutes of 'oohs and arrs and a great big grin, the plane banked and Kevin said ' This is the part I have never liked - landing'
    The pilot asked if he had been up before, we said No, he shook his head, and we talked about nothing else for day's. So if there is nothing after or before this life answer that one!

  10. #20
    WebProWorld MVP Clicken's Avatar
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    Ahhhh, more links,... yea, mikmik is back!

    MrLen, I did not cast a vote because you asked if I'm for evolution or against it. As if being for evolution meant being against God. I am beginning to think that everything evolved from God and as He said... He is everything. Yeah, it is so simple and in plain English but it is still so hard to understand. But if you can look at things not with your eyes, but your heart then you can begin to see.

    Let's get right to it...

    I pulled this quote from mikmik, because many times in the scriptures God refers to Himself as the truth, the light and the way to life. With all of the scientific truths that have been uncovered and discovered this quote from the link says to me that we could accept what God says as literal and not figurative.


    quote

    There are a number of implications that fall out from this working hypothesis, not the least of which is the realization that, if the universe is being honest with us, then the only way we can find anything out about it is to be honest with it. All scientists have to make a commitment to what Norm and I call the ethic of truth-telling. If you don't tell the truth, your science is no good.

    /quote

    Are we truthful if we deny the creator?


    The only reason I can accept the scriptures as being inspired and directed by God, is that everything in it is for my personal well being as an individual and as a unit. It is filled with truths, not about the workings of the world, cuz that would be one huge book. But rather how we are to survive this world. It also gives insight into the very source of everything's existence. Does the farmer know how big his harvest is before it is harvest time? He might have an idea but until it's all been gathered, he just doesn't have a fact. We are being tested to find out if we are in the harvest or with what's left behind. (He says He knows, I believe Him cuz He hasn't lied before.)

    Are we so preoccupied with the explanation of this world's existence, that we shrug off why it is here. How is interesting, Why is scary to think about and probably because it boils down to accountability.


    God expects the glory and deservingly so, but the writings with-in are for my benefit and not His. He has always been with me, but just because I didn't recognize and see it, or no one has been able to explain it and prove it doesn't make it any less real. (I know I'm not the only one) If one will acknowledge through communion with God, then you can see through the eyes of our Jewish examples. It's called being unbiased, blind faith, unconditional trust which frees the heart to sense the truth and accept it. God calls man his child, because we are learning and being trained and prepared for what's to come of us when we 'grow up' and 'get outta this place'.

    esiegel, the Jewish Theory of Everything looks very interesting. It reminds me of why they are the chosen people. They were chosen because of all the nations of the earth they were the ones seeking, walking and talking with God. But because they were human and not perfect there was division, they too have had many hardships. They have been placed at the center stage as the foretold truths throughout time have been revealed and will continue to be revealed. God will say... I told you so, and I showed you so. Then he will say ... Why didn't you listen? I will say... I dunno?:

    If you eat of the tree of knowledge, you must also eat of the tree of life or you shall surely die. I did not make that up. Scientific discoveries are truths, but so are spiritual truths. Not All though, so one must never give up the search for either. The science is where you live, the spiritual is why you live.

    Onward and Upward...eh?:

    Oh, I see you have been busy...


    quote from mikmik
    Every time we have carefully looked into the way the universe works and assumed it is telling the truth about itself, the truth appears to be that naturalism holds, and that the supernatural, if it exists, has no discernible effect on our understanding of it. The postulate of objectivity has passed every test against it. In fact, it is the single most-tested hypothesis in all of human history. The probability that any god or any other supernatural force either exists or interferes with the world is vanishingly small, and getting smaller.

    /quote


    How can science of the material world prove or disprove that which is of the spiritual realm?

    Maybe God doesn't interfer because we don't ask. Scipture says one must ask. It says also that He will knock, not barge in. One must invite him. So, the way I see it, the majority of the population isn't earnestly seeking the creator but rather trying to push him far away and even discredit Him. Uh oh... narrow is the way and few who find it. I am a witness to His awsome hand in my life, not cuz I'm so special... I simply cried out for him, He answered me, I thought I was crazy, but He was real and coincedences... I don't think so. Too many and too out right incredible. You don't have to believe me, sometimes It's hard for me to believe.



    quote
    And imperfections in organs such as the eye also weaken the design argument. I recently had an eye doctor assess me, for example, and learned that my previously 20/20 vision had deteriorated. And I'm not alone. Look around you and spot the spectacles.

    /quote

    Why and how does this weaken the arguement? Materials are subject to wear and tear. if you stick your face into the computer screen every day all day guess what will happen to your 20/20 perfect vision which you were gifted with. Then conclude that because you wore it out it couldn't have had a creator?



    quote
    Rather than designed, we and other organisms appear to have been shaped by our environments, retrofitted as best as possible under the circumstances. In his review for The Globe and Mail, for example, Batten reports an excellent example: The sinus is u-shaped but isn't drained from the bottom of the u. No engineer would make such a mistake, Batten notes. But it would be expected if the sinus arose through natural selection, as previous structures would be adapted.
    /quote


    The key word appears. I guess we can say, with confidence now, there can't be a master designer because of what appears.


    Just like we can't say with confidence that the master used evolution for creating. It only appears.


    Whew, mikmik look at the time... I'll have to return later. Good to talk to ya again though!

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