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Thread: Does Title Tag Placement Matter In Regards To SEO

  1. #1
    WebProWorld MVP Chris's Avatar
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    Does Title Tag Placement Matter In Regards To SEO

    In SEO, it's generally the case that you can ask 10 different experts the same question and almost always get 10 different answers. A general consensus in this industry is a rarity. However, there is a sense of agreement concerning the importance of title tags. But, among programmers and designers, there is some confusion on whether or not the placement of these tags is important in regards to search engine results.

    An article on SEORank.com notes the importance of title tags by stating: “Since the Title Tag plays a vital role in determining your site’s ranking in the SERP, you need to pay a lot of attention to the words that appear in the Title Tag and the order in which they appear. You need to develop a crisply worded Title Tag that includes your most relevant keyword phrases and performs the function of announcing the summary of your web page’s content.”

    While their importance can’t be denied, I have stumbled across an interesting question: Does it matter where title tags are positioned within the HTML, in relation to SEO? The answer depends on whom you ask.

    HTML rules dictate that title tags must appear within the
    Code:
    <header>
    tag. A normal page’s hypertext usually begins like this:
    Code:
    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    <HTML>
    <Head>
    <Title>This is the title of my web page</Title>
    </Head>
    At HighRankings.com, a poster named “excel30” posed the question on the positioning of title tags within a page’s HTML. Specifically, “should the title tag always be first before the keyword and description meta tags?”

    The responses excel received answered the question very well. Poster “anthonyparsons.com” stated, “It doesn't matter where it is....as long as it resides within the <head> section. It is read as the page
    Code:
    <title>
    for what it is, not where it is...”

    Anthony goes on to say that neatness is a factor in title placement and goes on to give an example of this:

    Code:
    <title>
    <description>
    <keywords>
    <robots>
    <etc etc>
    Jill Whalen, of HighRankings.com believes the nature of HTML dictates that order is not as important a consideration as title tag content. She offers these HTML examples to indicate her point:

    Code:
    <Meta NAME="Description" CONTENT="Your descriptive sentence goes here.">
    It can just as well be:

    Code:
    <Meta CONTENT="Your descriptive sentence goes here." NAME="Description">
    Because either style is acceptable for META tags, Jill reasons that the same applies to the order of opening web page tags. She goes on to say, “there was some controversy out there on whether it mattered if your Title tag came under the meta tags (because at the time, FrontPage put them there), but if memory serves, it was shown by others that it made no difference...I think perhaps it was even Danny Sullivan, but I might be mistaken.”

    I spoke to Danny (of SearchEngineWatch.com) to see if he could shed some more light on this subject. He stated:

    “No search engine has suggested that the exact order a title tag is placed makes a difference. So, to my knowledge, it's still not an issue. Having said all this, if someone is convinced having the title tag appear in a particular order is useful to them, they can certainly keep at it. I just don't think it's been found to have much of an impact.”

    In a related article that appeared in SearchNewz.com, Jon Ricerca asks the question, “Does Location Of Your Keyword Affect Ranking?” To learn if keyword placement has value in SERPs, read more here.
    Former WebProWorld Admin
    IntentionalFoul.com

  2. #2
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    In SEO, it's generally the case that you can ask 10 different experts the same question and almost always get 10 different answers
    Actually, you will often get 11+ different answers :)

    IMO, if you write your Title tag to reflect, as best you can, what the page is about you cannot go too far wrong. I find it worth to take a few minutes to write a descriptive Title that includes your keywords/phases. Write them to help the user (not googlebot) and you and Google will be singing from the same song book.

    Since the Title Tag plays a vital role in determining.....
    I cannot agree with the word "vital" in regards to Title tags. There are just too many well ranked pages where the search term is not in the Title.

    As for placement, anywhere in the head section seems to be fine, for Google at least.

  3. #3
    Senior Member sudhani's Avatar
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    placing the title tag anywhere, any order is ok as long as it is included in betn <head> </head> tag.

    I have a simple thumb of rule: When in doubt refer to www.w3.org recommendations.

    Most important reason why you need to write an "accurate" and "descriptive" title tag is that This is what makes the user click on your page.

    Accurate: I prefer to recieve only potential customers. And at the same time, I don't want my visitor to get disappointed when he actually visits the page.

    Descriptive: This should describe the content of the page very clearly.

    These are my few quick thoughts.

  4. #4
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    Most important reason why you need to write an "accurate" and "descriptive" title tag is that This is what makes the user click on your page.
    Google doesn't use the Title as the description in the SERP's. Unless you use the same term as in the Title.

    IMO, the most important reason why you need to write an "accurate" and "descriptive" title tag is to help with your SERP position.

  5. #5
    WebProWorld MVP Peter (IMC)'s Avatar
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    According to Lee Roberts of www.applepiecart.com the proper order of the tags as described in www.w3.org is essential for SEO. He claims that he uses the w3.org recomendations in his shopping cart and I have to be honest,.. sites managed by his shopping cart software do extremely well in the search engines.

    So conclusion would be that doing it right doesn't hurt. Not following all rules exactly doesn't hurt I think, but if you know the rules, why not follow them?

    Regards,

    Peter
    FREE SEO ! Really? YES! All you have to do is implement it!
    Follow me on Twitter PeterIMC

  6. #6
    Senior Member DanThies's Avatar
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    This "title tag position" stuff should not be controversial. The position of the title, as long as it's inside the HEAD of the document where it's supposed to be, should have no bearing on rankings. To understand, it helps to look at how search engines work.

    When you use a search engine, it doesn't look up all of the HTML code of all the pages in its database, score them all, and deliver results. The contents of pages are indexed and stored in a database. For every element on the page, the search engine will store certain information in its database. What search engines are indexing is words, so the index contains information about every word that occurs on each URL they've indexed.

    For each word occurence, the search engine's index will contain things like: a pointer to the URL where it occured, its position on the page and/or within page elements, its formatting (bold, heading, etc.). Words in the title tag would be stored as occuring in the TITLE, along with which position they occupy within the TITLE. There is no reason for search engines to store the position of the TITLE tag within the page, because it is a structural element, and doing so would not help them respond to a query.

    When you search, the search engine looks in the index for occurences of the words in your query. The search algorithm uses its rules to sift and weight all of the different occurences. Different indexes might contain different information, such as word occurences in link text, where the URL contained in the link, link weight etc. are important. A cached copy of the HTML might be kept in a summary record for the URL, but that's not what they use to respond to a search query.

    For more information, and a very good (simplified) description of a large scale search engine, see "The Anatomy of a Large-Scale Hypertextual Search Engine" by Google founders Sergey Brin and Lawrence Page (http://www-db.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html). This information is really applicable to any search engine, not just Google. Here are a few quotes from the original paper on the Stanford "Backrub" aka Google search engine:

    "In Google, the web crawling (downloading of web pages) is done by several distributed crawlers. There is a URLserver that sends lists of URLs to be fetched to the crawlers. The web pages that are fetched are then sent to the storeserver. The storeserver then compresses and stores the web pages into a repository."

    Note: at this point the page has been cached, but not indexed. If you go search for the page by URL, Google will be able to find it and show you the title and a snippet. It won't show up in any "real" searches until it's indexed, except possibly as a "supplemental result."

    "The indexing function is performed by the indexer and the sorter. The indexer performs a number of functions. It reads the repository, uncompresses the documents, and parses them. Each document is converted into a set of word occurrences called hits. The hits record the word, position in document, an approximation of font size, and capitalization. The indexer distributes these hits into a set of "barrels", creating a partially sorted forward index."

    Note: At this point, the page has been indexed, and can be found in keyword searches.

    Page & Brin's paper also describes the separate indexing of anchors/links, etc. Very educational. :D

  7. #7
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    Dan is right, as long as it's in the head area it's just fine.
    Follow me on Twitter, I'm bhartzer or like my page on Facebook.

  8. #8
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    While I agree with Dan that the position of the title tag should make no difference to SEO and rankings, I believe that the paper referenced also mentions that when each word is indexed in the hitlists it also includes the location of that word in the code, up to the first 4096 positions.
    This being the case Google does have the ability know where the words occur, and if for that reason, if not for others such as conformity to W3c, IMO the title tag should be the first thing listed after the <html> tag.

  9. #9
    Senior Member DanThies's Avatar
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    Mel,

    My attempt at interpreting that post, is that you're saying they "could" consider the location of the title since they are able to determine what the location is, and not that any search engine actually does.

    If you're saying something else, there's not much point arguing with you since I can't cite sources, but let's be clear that the pages have to be parsed before anything is indexed, so it's not really about position within the HTML source code.

    If you just put the title where it's supposed to be, it's not even an issue, since it should be <html><head><title> anyway.

    I'm just curious, are there actually *any* WYSIWYG type applications that don't put the title tag first? Anybody seen one?

  10. #10
    Senior Member DanThies's Avatar
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    I hate to make consecutive posts, but a related item ought to be mentioned.

    Google does show sites in search results based solely on the keywords appearing in the page title. When this happens, if you look at the cached version of the page, they display the familiar "these terms only appear in links pointing to this page" message.

    This has been interpreted by some folks to mean that the title "hits" are stored/scored in the same fashion as anchor text "hits." More likely, this is just the default text Google uses whenever the visible text of the page doesn't include the search term.

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