How to find outside SEO companies [Archive]

AuctionHugh

04-05-2010, 10:57 PM

We are working with a company that is pleased with their website but would like to have it be higher ranked for their search terms on Google. Their primary search term is "windshield repair cityname mi" and several variants.

For nearly all cities they are on the first or second page of google. They want to be in the top three listings for all their cities for their search terms.

Pretty straightforward SEO right?

This company is willing to pay a reasonable amount for SEO advice and/or assistance, but I don't know the best way to find a company or individual with those skills and a great reputation.

How do you go about obtaining SEO services?

davebarnes

04-06-2010, 10:06 AM

I will offer my services and then you can talk to people in 3 countries: Pakistan, Canada, USA.

I would look for:
1. Someone who does NOT (yes, NOT) guarantee results because only black hat types can do that.
2. Someone who has a demonstrated track record and can show you example similar to your situation.
3. Someone who can talk about how they measure and track over time.
4. Someone who you can afford.
5. Someone you feel comfortable with.

morestar

04-06-2010, 10:11 AM

I would look for:

1. Someone who does NOT (yes, NOT) guarantee results because only black hat types can do that.
2. Someone who has a demonstrated track record and can show you example similar to your situation.
3. Someone who can talk about how they measure and track over time.
4. Someone who you can afford.
5. Someone you feel comfortable with.

Good points Dave especially about guaranteeing. Sometimes no matter how much you work there could be something, this one thing that can hinder your SEO efforts.

Personally that happened to me only once and that was many years ago, one of my first projects but it can happen.

ladraut

04-06-2010, 05:27 PM

chrisJumbo

04-06-2010, 05:50 PM

I would search this forum and look for individuals/companies that have overtime provided reliable and solid SEO advice. There are certainly quite a few to chose from.

And Dave left a good punch list of things to consider. In other posts, you'll find even more exhaustive lists of bullet points.

cd :O)

Mamoon Rashid

04-06-2010, 06:00 PM

morestar

04-06-2010, 06:05 PM

Simple Solution

Search Google for

1. best seo company in the world
2. best seo company for google

the seo company that comes up #1 for these specializes in top positions for keywords with a locality

they get #1 results for most of their clients, and make it affordable

I have no doubt in the world that you're a good, productive and successful SEO company but I did find this while doing some research on those keywords:

"best seo company in the world" only 36 monthly searches.

"SEO company" over 200,000 monthly searches.

If we're helping the OP find outside SEO companies then I believe even before we submit that we'll do the work we should also know the domain and keywords in question.

I'm certainly never going to take on a client that wants to win for keywords that are so competitive that I need a large team of SEOs to work on it. If that were the case even as an SEO I would probably want to partner with another SEO and put our two heads together...

AuctionHugh, I know you're looking for outside SEO companies but could you provide us with a little more details on the nature of the campaign?

morestar

04-06-2010, 06:12 PM

How about

6. Someone who wont charge you if he is not able to show any results :P

<snip>.

Happy belated greetings Mamoon and remember if anyone has anything to say about Pakistan SEOs not being able to do their work they're just dead wrong. I know quite a few SEOs from Pakistan and India and I tell you, you guys are OK. There are SEO scammers across the globe...many right here in Canada too...

BaldyBob

04-06-2010, 06:34 PM

I think there are some good points raised here.

We do SEO, but I'll be a good boy and not push our services here.

Here's my tips to filter out the chancers:

Ask any prospective SEO company for live Google results, and go and check them yourself.

Watch out for example keyword combinations that are not really very competitive or commercially viable.

Discount any keywords that include the company name - only people who already know the company will use this.

Geo locations added to the core words are okay, as long as they represent a reasonable level of market, so no small towns.

Your site title tag is VERY important, we have got clients number one Google positions getting ONLY the title tag well focused.

If they display good keyword combination results in a very competitive areas, this is a good sign.
Check this by looking at the figures top right on the Google results page where it says results 1 to 10 of about (the higher the about figure, the more competitive).

Contact the featured companies to ask what the service provided was like.

Some SEO companies claim to get you good rankings, but only use paid for links - this is quite common. Organic SEO is what you are after.

You might also want to consider what I call solution based keywords. This is where you research common problems, questions or issues related to the product or service on offer, then create keywords and answers around such research.

One other thing to watch out for, is the use of 'industry' type keywords. This is where the SEO company and the client company use words which might be technically correct for their business type, but are not what many customers would use.

For example if the client was a sweet company they might use the term confectionery, or confectioners. Whilst some people might use this, more will use the terms sweets, or if in the USA maybe candy (although candy would be a poor term for the UK market), chocolates etc. They are not really looking for confectionery, it's too general.

The above is only a quick reference, but I hope it helps you in the right direction.

Baldy

Webnauts

04-06-2010, 06:51 PM

cory_mac

04-06-2010, 09:45 PM

morestar

04-06-2010, 09:58 PM

webnauts,
thats like asking if he would rather 1000 people walk through his store or just one. I dont see a comparison or the point you are trying to make. seo is a marketing option, developed as an advertising tactics. typically you would rather 1000 hits a day regardless of the sales. seo does not guarentee you sales, it will however up your chances on making a sale. people will either buy your product or not. seo is not going to hurt, it would actually help regardless.

edit:
if your website cannot handle 1000 hits a day, you should not have a website. hosting is so cheap today that if you can not afford to high a host for 3/mth with unlimited traffic easily handling those hits, again, you should not have a website.

Webnauts is asking the OP what his intentions are and hasn't stated anything other than the truth that there are SEOs in the world that will get your site ranked, take your money and leave you in the dust.

This is true as some SEOs don't know they have to continue doing their work because when it comes to the search engines things always change - one day your site could be ranking and the next it may not be.

cory_mac

04-06-2010, 10:10 PM

Would you prefer to rank for a targeted term in the Number 1 position, getting 1000 visitors per day and zero sales, or would you rather have 1 visitor and 1 sale per day?

What are you looking for exactly?

That seems to me that he is directing his comment at website performance. having 1000 hits per day no sales and poor site performance OR having 1 hit per day with 1 sale and optimal site performance. possibly iam reading this wrong, thank you for correcting me.

morestar

04-06-2010, 10:14 PM

What are you looking for exactly?

That's my interpretation...It happens, it's the web and text...we're all wondering what the OP is looking for...

But I think BaldyBob's ideas are right to the point...

I think there are some good points raised here.

We do SEO, but I'll be a good boy and not push our services here.

Here's my tips to filter out the chancers:

Ask any prospective SEO company for live Google results, and go and check them yourself.

Watch out for example keyword combinations that are not really very competitive or commercially viable.

Discount any keywords that include the company name - only people who already know the company will use this.

Geo locations added to the core words are okay, as long as they represent a reasonable level of market, so no small towns.

Your site title tag is VERY important, we have got clients number one Google positions getting ONLY the title tag well focused.

If they display good keyword combination results in a very competitive areas, this is a good sign.
Check this by looking at the figures top right on the Google results page where it says results 1 to 10 of about (the higher the about figure, the more competitive).

Contact the featured companies to ask what the service provided was like.

Some SEO companies claim to get you good rankings, but only use paid for links - this is quite common. Organic SEO is what you are after.

You might also want to consider what I call solution based keywords. This is where you research common problems, questions or issues related to the product or service on offer, then create keywords and answers around such research.

One other thing to watch out for, is the use of 'industry' type keywords. This is where the SEO company and the client company use words which might be technically correct for their business type, but are not what many customers would use.

For example if the client was a sweet company they might use the term confectionery, or confectioners. Whilst some people might use this, more will use the terms sweets, or if in the USA maybe candy (although candy would be a poor term for the UK market), chocolates etc. They are not really looking for confectionery, it's too general.

The above is only a quick reference, but I hope it helps you in the right direction.

Baldy

cory_mac

04-06-2010, 10:19 PM

The OP would like to know HOW TO FIND a good SEO. Thats all. I can read here that he has gotten many GREAT answers and I will contribute my two sense aswell.... GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND. In order to find a good SEO or a good auto mechanic you first need to do research and then you need to ask questions. You dont just hire the guy at the top of the list in a search nor would you take the first quote from a mechanic when getting your car fixed.

6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other.

this perhaps is part of the research by the OP.

p.s. voice forum would not work, people would only shout over one another.

mjtaylor

04-06-2010, 10:22 PM

Webnauts

04-06-2010, 10:33 PM

webnauts,
thats like asking if he would rather 1000 people walk through his store or just one. I dont see a comparison or the point you are trying to make. seo is a marketing option, developed as an advertising tactics. typically you would rather 1000 hits a day regardless of the sales. seo does not guarentee you sales, it will however up your chances on making a sale. people will either buy your product or not. seo is not going to hurt, it would actually help regardless.

edit:
if your website cannot handle 1000 hits a day, you should not have a website. hosting is so cheap today that if you can not afford to high a host for 3/mth with unlimited traffic easily handling those hits, again, you should not have a website.
This is my last day in the forums, so I still would like to add a last tip: SEOmoz | CRO and SEO: SEM Civil War (http://www.seomoz.org/blog/cro-seo-civil-war)

inertia

04-07-2010, 01:21 AM

See Dave's post and here are a few more recommendations:

Try and get a recommendation off a friend.
Check out LinkedIn - great site for finding and spotting good/quality companies.
Don't just go for the company who hammer you with pre-sales stuff. Go for the company who act like they are choosing you as well. That shows real know-how because a really good SEO will also be careful about NOT taking on a job that's not going to work, where as a less reputable company want ANYONE in the door - IMO.
Do your research. Google the company name using additional keywords like "complaints", "customer reviews", "screwed me", "stole my money" and "cowboys"... you get the message!
Personally I prefer working with smaller companies (freelancers, "one man bands") rather than larger companies as you get a better quality of service, in general. But I'm bias on that one!

inertia

04-07-2010, 01:24 AM

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 10:05 AM

Here's a great example of who NOT to choose, anyone who says they know when and what Google changes in it's algorithm!

this is an extremely harsh and very negative comment to make against a fellow forum member and web developer. although the site would need to be re developed using the CMS mentioned it is possible to have the algorithm update itself. this is one major reason why word press has ultimately taken over the industry with a battle axe.

How about offering the OP a list of the questions you think would help find a good SEO.

My primary advice is to type the question into google and go from there. my secondary advice would be to find the original designer who designed the code and have them do the SEO. Ideally that designer would know best without having to evaluate it as ALL OF US here would have to do first. GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND OP !

besides that, Iam not wasting my time repeating the many great ideas and advice that fellow members have already introduced.

morestar

04-07-2010, 10:13 AM

My company can install SEO tools into your site. One time charge and very effective. Updates itself when Google updates their algorythm, even... However it requires Joomla CMS / RSSeo. Trackable with Google Analytics.. all that.. plus we teach you how to monitor and adjust on your own.

Here's a great example of who NOT to choose, anyone who says they know when and what Google changes in it's algorithm!

I'm not too sure how one could detect changes in Google's algorithm - I wonder if rizzoid can disclose this information for us or maybe the info. is proprietary.

With respect to the installed SEO tools & Joomla it almost sounds the same as what Wordpress offers in terms of their SEO plugins and so forth. This post and the responses clearly display how using a CMS such as Wordpress can take care of your SEO (http://www.webproworld.com/search-engine-optimization-forum/101076-search-engine-optimization-changing.html#post503369) needs and is in line with rizzoid's offering...you may notice in those posts though that I still believe a CMS can do wonders for SEO but having a human SEO on your site is highly advisable for many reasons such as taking care of 301 redirects and the like...

;)

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 10:38 AM

I still believe a CMS can do wonders for SEO but having a human SEO on your site is highly advisable for many reasons such as taking care of 301 redirects and the like...

;)

that quote kinda reminds me of the salesman at future shop yesterday when i bought my plasma tv. he was telling me how the samsung is a much better tv then the lg. when in reality samsung owns lg and the tvs are exactly the same. infact they are built on the same assembly line in mexico only on opposite shitfs. one gets printed with samsung on the front and the other with lg. the guts are the same. the only difference at future shop is the salesman makes 300 dollars more on the sale if he sells the samsung.

I am not sure how having a human do your SEO can essentially be "better" when a CMS can easily be manipulated to do the same thing. either a human SEOs your site or he programs (installs a plugin or fusion to) your CMS to do it. [FACT:] there are over 550 plugins for wordpress developed daily by freelance developers offered to you under CCL (Creative Commons License).

furthermore Morestar, you say you work for a company who does SEO and that it is your primary job. If you had 1500 clients, who does the SEO on all thier sites ? does your company hire more SEOs or do you do this all by yourself ?

when is it necessary to use a CMS primarily for SEO ???

could this OP possibly be one of them ideal situations ???

jmaresca2005

04-07-2010, 10:57 AM

I suggest looking for a highly experienced seo expert, in the United States, with proven experiences and success generating a significant amount of revenue for their clients, employers and themselves through SEO.

Forget about the wanna bes who have 3 years of SEO experience or the other SEO's who work for $7 an hour in 3rd world countries. You want a pro who has extensive experience and success to back up their history as well as someone who understands SEO for increasing business and revenue, not just to rank keyword phrases.

I have over 10 years of highly successful SEO experience. I never sold my skills as a service until most recently when I decided to capitlize on this business. I have made millions of dollars via seo for companies like Register [d0t] c0m, Cafe [d0t] c0m , NYFA [d0t] c0m and many others.

You may view my credentials here: <removing self promotion>

I am also based in New York City.

Thank you.

morestar

04-07-2010, 11:01 AM

that quote kinda reminds me of the salesman at future shop yesterday when i bought my plasma tv. he was telling me how the samsung is a much better tv then the lg. when in reality samsung owns lg and the tvs are exactly the same. infact they are built on the same assembly line in mexico only on opposite shitfs. one gets printed with samsung on the front and the other with lg. the guts are the same. the only difference at future shop is the salesman makes 300 dollars more on the sale if he sells the samsung.

I am not sure how having a human do your SEO can essentially be "better" when a CMS can easily be manipulated to do the same thing. either a human SEOs your site or he programs (installs a plugin or fusion to) your CMS to do it. [FACT:] there are over 550 plugins for wordpress developed daily by freelance developers offered to you under CCL (Creative Commons License).

furthermore Morestar, you say you work for a company who does SEO and that it is your primary job. If you had 1500 clients, who does the SEO on all thier sites ? does your company hire more SEOs or do you do this all by yourself ?

when is it necessary to use a CMS primarily for SEO ???

could this OP possibly be one of them ideal situations ???

How funny re: samsung...

Oh, and apparently with respect to 301s Wordpress does have a 301 redirect plugin (http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/redirection/) so ya...I can hardly think of anything else an SEO could do that Wordpress couldn't...

Well if we have 1500 clients that needed SEO work done we would have to hire a few more people that's for sure. Here I'm the primary SEO whilst my co-worker takes care of minor details from time to time. I divide the SEO work into two categories: on-page and off-page. The on-page is generally a one time quote whilst the off-page is a little different as it's dynamic in nature. The off-page is usually an on-going process and I divide and organize my time for each off-page SEO client accordingly.

mjtaylor

04-07-2010, 11:23 AM

this is an extremely harsh and very negative comment to make against a fellow forum member and web developer.

Although I can see why you felt it was harsh, you'll find many forum communities are fairly unenthusiastic when a member uses a thread to promote their business. it is certainly against the rules of this forum (http://www.webproworld.com/webproworld-guidelines-announcements-suggestions/51317-forum-rules-guidelines.html).

My primary advice is to type the question into google and go from there. my secondary advice would be to find the original designer who designed the code and have them do the SEO. Ideally that designer would know best without having to evaluate it as ALL OF US here would have to do first. GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND OP !

besides that, Iam not wasting my time repeating the many great ideas and advice that fellow members have already introduced.

We don't want you to waste your time or repeat what's already been said. We want you to add something new. :D

I am not sure I would suggest someone who has come to a forum should Google their question. Wouldn't you Google first and then consult a forum because you want less biased views?

Returning to the web designer? Well, you won't get much support from SEOs on that idea. If the original webmaster knew SEO why would the OP seek advice on the topic?

The OP may also want to read this thread: http://www.webproworld.com/search-engine-optimization-forum/102087-questions-ask-search-engine-optimization-marketing-guru.html. (http://www.webproworld.com/search-engine-optimization-forum/102087-questions-ask-search-engine-optimization-marketing-guru.html)

mjtaylor

04-07-2010, 11:29 AM

Well I never ever offer my services for a cost at WebProWorld.com but have noticed quite a lot of people do so maybe I'll take advantage of this for once.

When you see people do that, please report the post. The posts will be deleted - and a warning or infraction issued. :cool:

The forum rules (http://www.webproworld.com/webproworld-guidelines-announcements-suggestions/51317-forum-rules-guidelines.html) are clear on self promotion.

Our SPAM Policy

* Please make sure that you are posting for the good of the community, not just for the sake of self-promotion :)
* Please refrain from posting affiliate links and press releases in our forums.
* Surveys are not allowed, unless you have been given permission in advance from a Site Admin
* Do NOT use the WebProWorld community for the purpose of 'spam' or excessive advertisements! This includes forum posts, private messages, or emails to other WebProworld members
* Our moderators reserve the right to edit or delete any posts they consider to be 'spam'
* If we find that you are spamming our community, you will be warned by a Moderator or Site Admin, and it may lead to the deletion of your posts and/or the removal of your WebProWorld account

Thanks!

morestar

04-07-2010, 11:31 AM

Very well, I didn't know it was against the rules of WebProWorld.com (http://www.webproworld.com/webproworld-guidelines-announcements-suggestions/51317-forum-rules-guidelines.html). Thanks MJT!

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 12:35 PM

mj, all due respect, by the time i got to this forum i seen many very good points being thrown regarding the OPs original question. stating an already stated idea is just the same as stating an invalid point. thus i did not add anything nor would i (with respect to the member) simply leave a comment that would in anyway attempt to disprove someones abilities.

morestar would you not agree, if you have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all ???

i see alot of that, not only here but across the forums/boards respectively. i dont see it fair for the OP to be mis guided so that someone can monetarily benefit. therefore my idea and professional advice is for the OP to google how to find an SEO. he has enough information from this board alone to know what questions to ask. google is your friend !

inertia

04-07-2010, 12:40 PM

this is an extremely harsh and very negative comment to make against a fellow forum member and web developer. although the site would need to be re developed using the CMS mentioned it is possible to have the algorithm update itself. this is one major reason why word press has ultimately taken over the industry with a battle axe.

It would be harsh if I was wrong but ironically it's people like this that can trip someone like the OP up. To say "Updates itself when Google updates their algorythm" implies that you and your "CMS" has inside Google information on Google's algorithm (the thing that the entire SEO community spends every day trying to decipher) and that is a lie. Don't tip toe around posts like this, out them and do the whole industry a favour.

I am not sure how having a human do your SEO can essentially be "better" when a CMS can easily be manipulated to do the same thing.

How can a CMS "do" the job of a human SEO? Are you going to train it to chose the best keywords, change internal linking structures, write content, build links, address snippet quality, monitor ROI and then adapat keywords, email the client with requests/recommendations/explanations, monitor industry developments and all the rest etc etc...?

The only thing a CMS like Wordpress can do is make the process a bit quicker by automating some of that copying and pasting, alt tagging, meta writing, 301ing etc. and even then that kind of SEO can be dangerously rigid and unnatural (what was the thread where we discussed this?).

CMS's will only do SEO correctly when an experienced SEO is sat at the driving seat and even then it's just a labour saving device.

inertia

04-07-2010, 12:45 PM

morestar would you not agree, if you have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all ???No. Don't agree when the issue in question regards something that is blatantly wrong and damaging to all who work hard to operate in the genuinely ethical SEO industry. As you say yourself..." i dont see it fair for the OP to be mis guided so that someone can monetarily benefit."

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 12:58 PM

It would be harsh if I was wrong but ironically it's people like this that can trip someone like the OP up. To say "Updates itself when Google updates their algorythm" implies that you and your "CMS" has inside Google information on Google's algorithm (the thing that the entire SEO community spends every day trying to decipher) and that is a lie. Don't tip toe around posts like this, out them and do the whole industry a favor.

to say I am tip toeing around posts is a weak attempt at an insult. its ok, iam insulted so you accomplished your goal. the SEO community is a major part of the development of word press, nuke, fusion, blogbuilder etc... they helped develop to make their job easier to manage high volume clients.

How can a CMS "do" the job of a human SEO? Are you going to train it to chose the best keywords, change internal linking structures, write content, build links, address snippet quality, monitor ROI and then adapat keywords, email the client with requests/recommendations/explanations, monitor industry developments and all the rest etc etc...?

Yes, you are going to train it, you may also load it with enough pre developed plug-ins that can do what you program it (train it) to do.

The only thing a CMS like Wordpress can do is make the process a bit quicker by automating some of that copying and pasting, alt tagging, meta writing, 301ing etc. and even then that kind of SEO can be dangerously rigid and unnatural (what was the thread where we discussed this?).

CMS's will only do SEO correctly when an experienced SEO is sat at the driving seat and even then it's just a labour saving device.

forgive me for repeating my statement regarding this but this is only validating my point that an SEO CAN do your SEO for you if you train (program) it. FYI, there are 100's of CMS's 1000 times more advanced then word press. word press was merely an example.

williamc

04-07-2010, 01:00 PM

morestar

04-07-2010, 01:01 PM

I have to agree. That post is nothing but misleading and untruthfull in the extreme.

Doesn't it slightly sound the same as what Wordpress offers in your opinion?

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 01:02 PM

No. Don't agree when the issue in question regards something that is blatantly wrong and damaging to all who work hard to operate in the genuinely ethical SEO industry. As you say yourself..." i dont see it fair for the OP to be mis guided so that someone can monetarily benefit."

the only thing wrong about that post is the first line, "My Company offers". he should not have said that. although, it is my professional opinion that what he is saying can be achieved with less work then conventional SEO.

williamc

04-07-2010, 01:02 PM

the SEO community is a major part of the development of word press, nuke, fusion, blogbuilder etc... they helped develop to make their job easier to manage high volume clients.

On-page factors are only a part of the equasion which is SEO. Please do not mislead newbie users into thinking ANY cms is going to take care of your optimization for you, that is misleading users almost as much as the poster that intertia spanked.

williamc

04-07-2010, 01:04 PM

the only thing wrong about that post is the first line, "My Company offers". he should not have said that. although, it is my professional opinion that what he is saying can be achieved with less work then conventional SEO.

Actually he stated that his system updated automatically when googles algo updated, which is impossible to know what tweaks google has employed at any algo modification. Impossible being the operative word. So sorry, your professional opinion does not carry much weight in this arguement. The guy spouted factually untrue statements, so he is reaping what he has sown.

williamc

04-07-2010, 01:09 PM

Doesn't it slightly sound the same as what Wordpress offers in your opinion?

wordpress does not say they know every google algo change and their system updates automatically to handle them.

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 01:13 PM

On-page factors are only a part of the equasion which is SEO. Please do not mislead newbie users into thinking ANY cms is going to take care of your optimization for you, that is misleading users almost as much as the poster that intertia spanked.

well forgive me for "spanking" you, i am not misleading anyone by saying that the SEO community had a hand in the development of MANY CMS's and the theory of how we know them today. I will state again that there are many CMS's that will take care of your SEO for you. like any site conventional or not you have to update, although with the advanced plugins today you can have alot of this labouring task done for you.

Just because you are an SEO, please dont mis lead newbie users that hiring a human SEO is the only way to go, that is just blatantly UN TRUE.... nonetheless I highly DOUBT that you would sit their and update your clients sites daily to make them rank the first page everyday, so please refrain from leading the OP into believing that SEOs sit their and update your site daily to make sure it ranks #1 everyday because thats a load of crap. no matter how good you are, there is always someone better, welcome to LIFE !

morestar

04-07-2010, 01:17 PM

wordpress does not say they know every google algo change and their system updates automatically to handle them.

Yes and in the end, although I believe Wordpress does a lot for us SEO wise I'll always stand on the side that it can never truly take care of the whole gamut of SEO services. As interia mentioned:

How can a CMS "do" the job of a human SEO? Are you going to train it to chose the best keywords, change internal linking structures, write content, build links, address snippet quality, monitor ROI and then adapat keywords, email the client with requests/recommendations/explanations, monitor industry developments and all the rest etc etc...?

The only thing a CMS like Wordpress can do is make the process a bit quicker by automating some of that copying and pasting, alt tagging, meta writing, 301ing etc. and even then that kind of SEO can be dangerously rigid and unnatural (what was the thread where we discussed this?).

The thread was SEO Changing (http://www.webproworld.com/search-engine-optimization-forum/101076-search-engine-optimization-changing.html)...

CMS's will only do SEO correctly when an experienced SEO is sat at the driving seat and even then it's just a labour saving device.

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 01:20 PM

Actually he stated that his system updated automatically when googles algo updated, which is impossible to know what tweaks google has employed at any algo modification. Impossible being the operative word. So sorry, your professional opinion does not carry much weight in this arguement. The guy spouted factually untrue statements, so he is reaping what he has sown.

i will give you one thing. his mistake was the word automatically. although there are many plugins that will update all your on-page in seconds if told to do so. saving you doing it manually. as he added he would teach you how to do it yourself. thats the way i took it, and thats fair to say. as for my professional opinion, it is based on how i understood the question. so sorry you dont have the ability to theorize factuality, and quite possibly remind them that it is impossible to "automatically" learn googles algorithm. instead you would rather come out and call them a liar and misleading. ignorance i believe is the word.

williamc

04-07-2010, 01:22 PM

well forgive me for "spanking" you, i am not misleading anyone by saying that the SEO community had a hand in the development of MANY CMS's and the theory of how we know them today. I will state again that there are many CMS's that will take care of your SEO for you. like any site conventional or not you have to update, although with the advanced plugins today you can have alot of this labouring task done for you.

Just because you are an SEO, please dont mis lead newbie users that hiring a human SEO is the only way to go, that is just blatantly UN TRUE.... nonetheless I highly DOUBT that you would sit their and update your clients sites daily to make them rank the first page everyday, so please refrain from leading the OP into believing that SEOs sit their and update your site daily to make sure it ranks #1 everyday because thats a load of crap. no matter how good you are, there is always someone better, welcome to LIFE !

Let's get one thing straight. No automation tool is going to do everything any semi or highly competitive website needs to rank. Period. Without human interaction, they will get nowhere, and do so extremely quickly.

Secondly, you did not spank me in any way, shape, or form, nor did I say you were misleading in saying that some seo's have a hand in WP development. I do myself. I said you were misleading newbies by taking the position that any cms could do all things required for a site to rank. They can not, have never, and will never be able to do it all.

Please learn the basics, before posting things as fact, when they are anything but.

mjtaylor

04-07-2010, 01:24 PM

i will give you one thing. his mistake was the word automatically. although there are many plugins that will update all your on-page in seconds if told to do so. saving you doing it manually. as he added he would teach you how to do it yourself. thats the way i took it, and thats fair to say. as for my professional opinion, it is based on how i understood the question. so sorry you dont have the ability to theorize factuality, and quite possibly remind them that it is impossible to "automatically" learn googles algorithm. instead you would rather come out and call them a liar and misleading. ignorance i believe is the word.

We would, I hope, refrain from calling anyone a liar. But to point out that their post was misleading is not unreasonable.

His mistake was self promotion. ;) The post is gone.

williamc

04-07-2010, 01:26 PM

Instead you would rather come out and call them a liar and misleading. ignorance i believe is the word.

I call a spade a spade. If they are misleading newbies here then I will indeed call them out on it. You don't have to like it, but it is going to happen. I do not recall asking him to say his system does it automatically, nor do I recall asking you to infer that any cms be it wordpress or any other can do all the work an seo does.

Both of which were misleading.

inertia

04-07-2010, 01:30 PM

to say I am tip toeing around posts is a weak attempt at an insultNo it's not. You're just being sensitive.

the SEO community is a major part of the development of word press, nuke, fusion, blogbuilder etc... they helped develop to make their job easier to manage high volume clients.Yep of course. I'm a big Wordpress fan/user/developer and I was one of the main pushers for a Wordpress section on this forum. Self congratulating aside, how does this input from SEOs make Wordpress do all of the following, answer me this please?

chose the best keywords,
change internal linking structures,
write content,
build links,
address snippet quality,
monitor ROI and then adapat keywords,
email the client with requests/recommendations/explanations,
monitor industry developments

Yes, you are going to train it, you may also load it with enough pre developed plug-ins that can do what you program it (train it) to do.So Wordpress has AI now?!

crankydave

04-07-2010, 01:39 PM

Achieving top search engine rankings will increase targeted web site traffic, but this does not guarantee conversions.

Once high search engine rankings have been achieved by some webmasters and even some SEO’s (search engine optimizers), they believe that they have finished their job. From this point forward they care little, if not at all on how the site performs.

Would you prefer to rank for a targeted term in the Number 1 position, getting 1000 visitors per day and zero sales, or would you rather have 1 visitor and 1 sale per day?

What are you looking for exactly?

Very, very important point IMO. What the client hopes to achieve.

There are SEO's, exceptionally competent ones, who to place a priority on ROI. There are also SEO's, exceptionally competent ones, that focus on what it is the client wants... e.g. a top 3 ranking.

Conversions are everything. Doesn't matter what the conversion is. Search engines are not the be all end all for all conversions.

To the OP's question... Do spend some time with your client in determining what they hope to achieve with the rankings they want. A framed copy of their rankings to hang over the water cooler or more money in their pocket? One could easily make the assumption it's the latter but what they want the rankings for may not achieve that and there may be better ways to achieve their ultimate goal.

In addition to all the good points made in this thread already, keep an open mind (you and your client) to options outside of just rankings that might get made by perspective companies. Not ones that are neccessarily PPC. A good SEO company, IMO, will question you and your client along these lines. What it is you are ultimately hoping to achieve by the services they provide.

Wanting a top 3 ranking is one thing, what one ultimately expects from it is quite another.

Dave

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 01:43 PM

Let me put it in layman terms for william. There are CMS's that will do a HUGE chunk of SEO for you if you tell it too. period. for a one time charge you want a CMS installed and your site developed with it. you also want to be taught how to update it yourself using a mouse and a left click button. so easy a cave man can do it. I am not discouraging anyone from hiring an SEO, however I am assuming a windshield repair service does not have the money to pay an SEO to monitor their site for them. my point, a CMS is something feasible for ANY small to medium company that is looking for a top 5 rank. A CMS WILL rank you that high by simply logging in and selecting a few radio boxes, typing a few words and hitting submit. Not everyone can afford a hot shot SEO to manually update their site regularly. FACT !

williamc

04-07-2010, 01:50 PM

Let me put it in laments terms for william. There are CMS's that will do a HUGE chunk of SEO for you if you tell it too. period.

It is 'laymans terms' and your post is still 100% incorrect. Read intertias last post to see exactly why your arguement fails miserably.

Cranky One: well said.

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 02:20 PM

chose the best keywords, --> no, not choose but allow you to update it yourself.
change internal linking structures, ---> yes again, there are some that do create SEO links
write content, ---> no but again, a cavman could add info and it will choose your tags from it.
build links, ---> again, yes. with a fusion for php-fusion, it will to some extent build links.
address snippet quality,
monitor ROI and then adapat keywords, ---> ofcourse this only important to a minority.
email the client with requests/recommendations/explanations, ---> absolutley, a simply script.
monitor industry developments ---> again, update the CMS to the newest version with the click of a mouse

listen, I am in no way am stating that a CMS is BETTER, then conventional SEO, although, with respect to the style of site, the type of business relying on online sales and how important it is. A lot of businesses have a website for the simple point of having an online business card. It is a digital age and any business without a website is frowned upon and though of "behind in time". If you are creating an online store where 95% of your revenue is generated from online sales then i can understand why you all think this is so important. typically that is not the case. many many cases a company does not care how much revenue the website has created provided the overhead is not out of their reach. justly the difference between a SEO and/or a CMS SEO.

Arguing with you two is like arguing with Coke and Pepsi. you both argue that your brand is better and everyone elses ideas or brands are not worth your dollar. I commend you both for standing your ground and believing in what you do, although, i know iam right on many points, i use/develop/maintain/support two very popular CMS's, there are 1000's who agree with me and it is proven every day. i am more educated in this industry then you probably would think/give me and i remain open minded to all things possible. something i am not sure you guys do, or have time to do. either way. people can sit here and say that my statement is 100% false, when i know it isn't that doesn't show much for the integrity of those people as forum members. i see it everyday, about different topics and it is the norm amongst the forums. you just have to know who to take advice from and who not to. when i actually have a question that i need an answer for, i will know who NOT to ask ;-)

williamc

04-07-2010, 02:35 PM

While I appreciate you revising what you were saying by stating it would not/could not do everything (even remotely) that a true SEO would, there are a few points below I still want to clarify upon.

chose the best keywords, --> no, not choose but allow you to update it yourself.

Most newbies have no clue what good keywords are. WP is no help.

change internal linking structures, ---> yes again, there are some that do create SEO links

There are some plugins, but they do not always change it as it should actually be. Also newbie users probably are not aware of the plugins.

write content, ---> no but again, a cavman could add info and it will choose your tags from it.

Again, that does not mean that the user knows anything about keywords. WP is not going to solve that issue.

build links, ---> again, yes. with a fusion for php-fusion, it will to some extent build links.

This is misleading as what it can do via feeds is limited and would only work on extremely low competition keys and phrases. Again not much help to 80% of the users out there going after decent markets.

monitor ROI and then adapat keywords, ---> ofcourse this only important to a minority.

Not at all. If you are not adapting your strategy to accomodate the best possible ROI, you are failing your client. WP can not do it in the least.

monitor industry developments ---> again, update the CMS to the newest version with the click of a mouse

No, he did not mean cms industry developments, he actually mean search industry developments such as what works now, and what does not anymore, what is weighted differently and what is not, etc. WP does not try to keep up with that as it is not in their natural sphere. They simply only keep up with basic elements such as pertains to their system delivering content. Nothing else. There are a great many more factors in play than they will ever hope to cover.

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 02:58 PM

No, he did not mean cms industry developments, he actually mean search industry developments such as what works now, and what does not anymore, what is weighted differently and what is not, etc. WP does not try to keep up with that as it is not in their natural sphere. They simply only keep up with basic elements such as pertains to their system delivering content. Nothing else. There are a great many more factors in play than they will ever hope to cover.

i understood what he meant, appearently you didnt understand what i meant. if i didn't fix and update either of my CMS's daily then I am not providing a top quality project. both the CMS's i build upon employ over 175 of the best programmers internationally. our CMS's are updated (fixed) almost daily to meet the industry standards. with that we avail the current updates. part of my posts if you read them all, is that in order for a CMS to work for you, you must have someone in house to maintain it. someone willing to spend a few days learning how to update keywords, and build links using the CMS point and click software.

AGAIN this is an option for a company who wishes to pay a secretary or clerk a 12/hr wage where their most difficult daily task is operating a fax machine, to update the website aswell... perhaps once a week, twice a week. if your secretary cannot learn how to update proper and powerful keywords for a search engine to crawl, then perhaps an SEO website is the least of your worries.

you can argue with me until your blue in the face. it is your business to know SEO and it is my business to develop a stand alone CMS. If for one second you believe that we are not constantly committed to creating a maintenance free CMS you got problems. just as your industry is constantly finding different methods of SEO, we are looking for different ways to make it easier for Susy, the office clerk, to maintain the company web presence. the end.

p.s.
Word Press is the least advanced CMS on the market. it is user friendly and started out as a blog post... lets talk CMS in general. If you are not aware of the advancments, then dont comment back please, thank you.

williamc

04-07-2010, 03:05 PM

just as your industry is constantly finding different methods of SEO, we are looking for different ways to make it easier for Susy, the office clerk, to maintain the company web presence. the end.

Actually the conversation was about SEO aspects, not generally maintaining a web presence. Maybe you missed that part? The SEO 101 forum heading may give a clue....

When we all called you out it was due to your statements of a cms being able to do seo well enough and real seo's not being needed. The point has been, and still is, that no cms can do that, nor will they anytime soon.

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 03:25 PM

you waste way to much time reading nevermind answering anything i post willamc.

before you comment again, go read the OP, then read how the thread got to CMS and then read why I started on the topic.

williamc

04-07-2010, 03:31 PM

Yes, his exact words were about getting #1 to #3 rankings for their keywords. He never said anything about needing a cms or anything similar. He specifically asked how to hire a professional.

When you got into it was when you supported a spammer making misleading claims.

mjtaylor

04-07-2010, 04:05 PM

As long as you don't try to convince anyone CMS can do SEO, we won't try and convince anyone SEO maintains website content.

williamc

04-07-2010, 04:15 PM

As long as you don't try to convince anyone CMS can do SEO, we won't try and convince anyone SEO maintains website content.

I have to give out more rep first or you would have gotten green for that one. So I will just say: Nice!! :)

inertia

04-07-2010, 05:00 PM

If you are creating an online store where 95% of your revenue is generated from online sales then i can understand why you all think this is so important. typically that is not the case. many many cases a company does not care how much revenue the website has created provided the overhead is not out of their reach.Right... so were starting to understand the difference between us and you now. You don't work with companies/websites where traffic/conversions/revenue/visibility are an issue. You work with companies who need a website purely for the sake of keeping up with the world. That's fair enough. I work with companies who would fire me if I was to get a caveman to write their content and then tell them not to worry about ROI or keyword performance.

What I do take issue with is that saying that a CMS can handle SEO to a real world SEO is blatantly wrong. It suggests that we can all be replaced by a secretary with no experience whatsoever in SEO. If that was the case then we wouldnt have the industry that we have and the many blogs, conferences, forums etc. There just wouldnt be that much to talk about!

Word Press is the least advanced CMS on the market.

Another point I disagree with entirely. There are numerous internet service related companies with incredibly simple CMSs that you've never heard of. Wordpress is simple in it's design but advanced in it's application due to this simplicity. Add that to the masses of online literature, plugins (which you've already championed), developments like Buddypress/MU and it's far from "the least advanced CMS on the market".

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 05:03 PM

your absolutely right, CMS cannot do SEO, I am completely out of line, I apologize to you all, especially those whose life evolves primarily around SEO. so sorry for mis-leading everyone.

its hard for a circular mind to see outside a square box.

inertia

04-07-2010, 05:07 PM

your absolutely right, CMS cannot do SEO, I am completely out of line, I apologize to you all, especially those whose life evolves primarily around SEO. so sorry for mis-leading everyone.

Thats all right mate. You are forgiven! We realise that it's hard for an non SEO to really understand the full spectrum of what we do.

cory_mac

04-07-2010, 05:13 PM

Thats all right mate. You are forgiven! We realise that it's hard for an non SEO to really understand the full spectrum of what we do.

i am glad we got this all figured out :razz:

chrisJumbo

04-07-2010, 05:30 PM

Honestly, out of all of this, the 2nd most disturbing post was from Webnauts wanting to leave the forum. The most disturbing one was removed.

I hope he reads this and comes back. He certainly provides valuable SEO experience and information.

I hope the OP gleaned some good basic questions to ask and things to watch out for.

cd :O)

morestar

04-08-2010, 07:59 AM

Here's an example of a Wordpress blog and ranking issues (http://www.webproworld.com/search-engine-optimization-forum/102171-blog-ranking-issues.html#post507328)...this is justly another example of why a having a blog doesn't mean good rankings...

Tubby

04-08-2010, 08:53 AM

Someone said
"its hard for a circular mind to see outside a square box. "
Cheeky!

As far as my own SEO skills go. . It probably would not take a CMS system to replace me. Probably it would require at least a seeing eye dog.

The reason I posted - I have some minor traffic for windscreens and for the State mentioned, I am not interested In SEO. . . But I might respond to a link request if done expertly.

crankydave

04-09-2010, 09:46 AM

listen, I am in no way am stating that a CMS is BETTER, then conventional SEO, although, with respect to the style of site, the type of business relying on online sales and how important it is. A lot of businesses have a website for the simple point of having an online business card. It is a digital age and any business without a website is frowned upon and though of "behind in time". If you are creating an online store where 95% of your revenue is generated from online sales then i can understand why you all think this is so important. typically that is not the case. many many cases a company does not care how much revenue the website has created provided the overhead is not out of their reach. justly the difference between a SEO and/or a CMS SEO.

Nonsense. Every business intends to generate more bottom line revenue with everything they do. They do not try and figure out ways to spend money for a 'zero' or 'negative' bottom line return. So to say that any business, let alone suggesting it is typical, does not care how much revenue is generated by a website is utter nonsense. Even if the 'overhead' is zero, if it provides 'zero' to their bottom line it's a waste.

Conversions are everything. Conversions are not all the same.

What a company/individual ultimately hopes to achieve/accomplish with their presence matters... it matters the most. SEO companies that make the effort to try and better undertand what that is are going to be the ones with the best chance, the best opportunity to 'please' their client.

Doesn't matter the CMS. THey ALL have 2 things in common...

1. They must be 'fed' their 'content'.
2. They don't research and provide that 'content'.

CMS is a great tool. A system for managing content. Great! But it does not 'think'. It is not intuitive. Who's going to properly research that content? A $12 hr employee? Who's going to properly write that content? The same employee? Perhaps they will... perhaps not.

But one thing is for certain, a CMS is not going to do those things, and more, for you.

morestar

04-09-2010, 06:58 PM

Here's another example of some of the deadly sins against SEO (http://searchengineland.com/deadly-sins-against-seo-part-2-39483), particularly sin #4 dealing with using tools vs. development skills.

Enjoy and tell me what you think!

mjtaylor

04-16-2010, 10:42 AM

they should be banned if anyone use any SPAM way.... forum just for discussion...to share knowledge... not for a business

Well, we like to give people a couple of chances to get clear on the rules.

It is a *little* for business ... which is why we have signature files.

thersey

04-18-2010, 01:54 PM

My advice would be to try a few companies with different SEO techniques and check to see if your rankings go higher.

mjtaylor

04-18-2010, 02:10 PM

My advice would be to try a few companies with different SEO techniques and check to see if your rankings go higher.

Which different techniques?

thersey

04-18-2010, 02:20 PM

Blog commenting, directory listings, video submission and press releases.

williamc

04-18-2010, 03:18 PM

You have not described an SEO company, you have just described different types of link building techniques, and only a tiny mattering of them at that. An SEO does far far more than that.

thersey

04-18-2010, 10:20 PM

You have not described an SEO company, you have just described different types of link building techniques, and only a tiny mattering of them at that. An SEO does far far more than that.

Sorry William, what I am trying to say is most SEO techniques can be done by yourself without paying someone to do it for you. There are a lot of SEO companies that are out to rip you. For example, we have had some of those so called SEO experts promising to take you to the top of the google natural results for a mere $3000 a month. Here is my list of things that can easily be done yourself or for a small fee to your hosting company.

SEO URL's.
Correcting Canoncial Issues's.
Re-new your domian name for 10-years.
Write good articles and submit for press releases.
Put the correct mix of content on your homepage.
Get quality links from websites related to your website.
Get listed in the google, yahoo, business.com & BOTW directories.
Link to company blogs.
Create company video and link back to your site with do follow links.
Submit website to good web directories, article websites.
Social bookmarking accounts, twitter, facebook and others.
These are a few things that can be done yourself without paying anyone.

williamc

04-19-2010, 12:23 AM

Theresey, I understand what you mean, however all of the above options miss a few details. Namely, most webmasters have no clue about proper keyword research, and without that, all the content, articles, press releases, submissions to directories, etc. are not going to help them much. You have to know what keywords to go after, in content, articles, anchor text, etc. You have to know the on-page details that matter to engines, and in what priority, you have to actually know what a no-follow link isand how to spot one, just to name a few items that the vast majority of webmasters do NOT know. You have to know which links will actually provide a decent ROI and which ones, while possibly helping in the long run, will not help in any foreseeable future. You have to know what links could actually hurt you at some point in time and steer clear of them.

The above is a small number of reasons why professional SEO's are around, and thriving, but the biggest reason: You have to follow thru with ALL of it, and again, many webmasters will fail at that for whatever reason, be it needing to spend more time dealing with customers, shipping products, finding revenue streams, etc.

So , yes, while some things can indeed be done by webmasters themselves, most have no idea how to do them properly.