Things that help the look and your ranking

[janeth]

There are two tags that a lot of people seem to forget about when building a website that can both help the look of your site and also help your ranking in the search engines.

HEADING TAGS

A lot of times when people are building web pages they use [b] tags and <font size=> tags to show importance for the page header or certain sentences they want to stand out. Instead of using these you should use <h> tags instead. There are 5 different <h> tags from 1 to 5.
The reason you should use these is that the search engines see different text as more important then other text. The text that the search engines see as more important is the text used in the <h> tags. So it is important that you try and use your key words in the <h> tags.

TITLE ATTRIBUTE

Everyone would use this tag if for no other reason just to be nice.
The tag looks like this
Web Site Design (http://www.geeksonsteroids.com)*

Most people never use this attribute. The reason you should use it is simple: It's there for the blind. Speech browsers read the title attributes aloud, so people that can not see know what the page is about.

It also has the benefit of adding search engine related content. The terms you use should be relevant to your site helping you get your key words in the "title". The search engines a long with everything else looks to see if your website was designed right. This is just one more step in getting it done that way. Every little bit helps and this could be the very thing you need to move above your competition.

Do you know of more tags that will help your ranking in the search engines?

[sudhani]

Thanx for the info Janet ...

Using table summaries also help us with ranking at the same time it provides us the info when we need to review / redo our page...

[jackson992]

Don't forget alt tags for images

[sudhani]

Here .. Are we talking about "repeating" the key words certain number of times so that the craweler treats the repetetion as relavant but not as a spam?

What's your experience in whats the number of times a key phrase can be repeated in a page in order to get a high PR?

[jackson992]

Keyword density has nothing to do with PR

It has to do with search engine ranking:)

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

I'm not sure which book or group of standards Janeth was reviewing when she cited that there are only 5 sizes of heading tags, but there are actually six.

H1 through H6 and each having a level of importance decending as the value of the number increases. So, H1 is more important that H2 and so forth.

Title Attributes and Table Summaries are there as accessibility features just like the Alt Attributes. However, I have not seen a web site's placement increase due to the use of those two elements. Actually, I've seen the reverse.

The Title Attributes and Table Summaries are considered HTML elements and have very little value for the search engines. Conversely, the Alt Attribute has value because it gives the search engines a text value of the image.

However, I have seen sites with navigation buttons fall short of those that use text for the link. Sites that use JavaScript/JScript for navigation typically fall short of those that do not.

I hope this helps everyone.

[sudhani]

Title Attributes and Table Summaries are there as accessibility features just like the Alt Attributes. However, I have not seen a web site's placement increase due to the use of those two elements. Actually, I've seen the reverse.


Can you still remember where u have seen this reverse case?

That could be because of some other factors rather than these.

[janeth]

TheWebDoctor(tm) wrote:

I'm not sure which book or group of standards Janeth was reviewing when she cited that there are only 5 sizes of heading tags, but there are actually six.

You can neat pick anything. Since there is nothing that says how much weight Google puts on the <h> tags I just did not see the need to put the <h6> tag. I figured if you loose a little with each tag by the time you get there it may be like linking to a pr1 site with a 100 out going links.

TheWebDoctor(tm) wrote:

Title Attributes and Table Summaries are there as accessibility features just like the Alt Attributes. However, I have not seen a web site's placement increase due to the use of those two elements. Actually, I've seen the reverse.

A lot of times before I post something I try it on my on site. We have around 70 key words we are ranked in the top 20 on Google for and we try to keep up with those words from week to week after we make different changes to our site.

But as sudhani pointed out there is so much going on it is hard to keep track of exactly what makes a site go up or down. A website you have linked to may go out of business and your rank drops. Or a website may go up in rank. There are just so many things. I find it amazing that you could tell this was the one thing that made this site drop in rank.
[/b]

[Black Knight]

TheWebDoctor(tm) wrote:

I'm not sure which book or group of standards Janeth was reviewing when she cited that there are only 5 sizes of heading tags, but there are actually six.

You can neat pick anything. Since there is nothing that says how much weight Google puts on the <h> tags I just did not see the need to put the <h6> tag.

I didn't think TheWebDoctor was 'nit picking' in any way in correcting something that had been incorrectly stated.

There are more levels of <H> tags than you stated. If you are going to give information, it is always important that it should not be misinformation. There are plenty of misinformation, half-facts, and outright myths about SEO, surely the whole point of this forum is as a place to avoid all that, and get the full picture, even if it takes many posts, and many participants, to build that whole picture up.

[janeth]

Hi Black Knight,
Maybe you did not see the reason I did not give all of the <h> tags. When I post should I get you and TheWebDoctor to read over everything first.

I gave the most important <h> tags. I did not see the reason to list the <h6> tag.

I'm so sorry I do not feel like it helps enough to list it.

[janeth]

And leaving out a tag is a long way from misinformation.

[janeth]

So every one understands.

There are thousands of search engines. Not all of them work the same.

I read and study everyday to try to stay at the top of the words I'm currently ranked at and to try and get ranked for new key words.

We use our site to experiment on and if it works out we then use it on our customers sites.

Because we started with no money and because I know how tuff it is to make an online site work I try to post information that has worked for me.

To say I'm not giving all the facts because I did not list a <h6> tag that would leave the text to small to read is childish. This is a tag that I do not believe will add any value to a site so I do not post it.

One thing you need to understand is as most of you know the search engines do not say what they do or do not look at for the most part.

I post what I know has worked for me. I leave out what I know nothing about.

I was trying to be helpful. No one knows for sure how much wait Google puts on everything it looks at.
But I do know that all the little things add up.

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

Janeth says:

There are thousands of search engines.

Considering I've been working on the *net since 1984 I can assure you that there are NOT thousands of search engines. Anyone stating that is in dire straits and shows a lack of knowledge. Certainly a Moderator should know better than to cite things that are not true.

I'm sure you are reading all the information from many of the search engine submission companies. Let me explain something here. Over 90% of the sites those automated tools submit your site to are FFA and classified advertising sites.

Please learn the difference.

Sudhani quotes myself and asks if I can explain where I have seen this:

Title Attributes and Table Summaries are there as accessibility features just like the Alt Attributes. However, I have not seen a web site's placement increase due to the use of those two elements. Actually, I've seen the reverse.

I have tried this on my site. As soon as I added those elements with keywords and such my placement decreased. Since I work with the W3C, teach, and have developed a search engine friendly shopping cart , I have had to ensure that everything I do will work to the advantage of my clients.

The Title Attribute is a tool tip for the disabled. It has no baring on positioning because the search engines do not, at this point in time, expect people to be using them for keyword stuffing.

The Summary Attribute is a tool tip for the disabled that explains the layout of a table. It is not an element used by the search engines because search engines to not need that particular information. So, dumping a lot of keywords into the Summary Attribute will only increase the HTML to Content ratio. Content needs to be higher than HTML to be successful.

Google says:

Create a useful, information-rich site and write pages that clearly and accurately describe your content.

That is clearly more content than HTML. If you have no content for the search engines to read then you are defeating yourself and your clients.

Black Knight cites myself:

I didn't think TheWebDoctor was 'nit picking' in any way in correcting something that had been incorrectly stated.

There are more levels of <H> tags than you stated. If you are going to give information, it is always important that it should not be misinformation. There are plenty of misinformation, half-facts, and outright myths about SEO, surely the whole point of this forum is as a place to avoid all that, and get the full picture, even if it takes many posts, and many participants, to build that whole picture up.

Black Knight, thank you for understanding my point and relaying the facts to our other Moderator.

The <h6> tag is more important than a

tag. In fact, the

tag can be left out if the content is within a table cell which has more importance than a simple

tag.

If you would like a review of the levels of importance I can provide that. Just be aware that I am leaving out elements that do not help in positioning and some other elements. And the order is ...

Page Title
H1
H2
H3
H4
H5
H6
div
td
p
span
strong
em

Those are the text elements. You'll notice I left out ALT, text links, meta keywords, and meta descriptions. Each search engine takes those on differently - some may apply the same weight to those elements.

The elements I cited are text containers only. I cited those only, because content is king.

I hope this helps everyone.

[janeth]

Hi TheWebDoctor,
Sorry I just know I see a new search engine every time I turn around. I did not take the time to count them.
That list you gave where can I find that on Google or is that just your guess?
I guess from looking at your site your main key word is "Professional WebSite Design Company " is that correct?

[janeth]

Any way If I want to use something for bold it would be an <h4> tag.
There is more to it then what the search engines see the site should look good. An <h6> tag would be to small to read.

And again Google does not say what they look at.
And I could care less that black knight agrees with you.

[Black Knight]

I guess from looking at your site your main key word is "Professional WebSite Design Company " is that correct?

I guess from yours that your main keywords (the one's you'd like, even though you haven't attained them) are "web site design" and "free web site design", Janeth. So what?

Mine are "web marketing" and "site promotion" - anything to say about that?

Perhaps just saying "thanks for catching my error" would be a better approach? I for one don't care who posted what, so long as in the end, collaboratively, the correct info is at everyone's disposal. In that light, I'm glad that TheWebDoctor pointed out something that could have mislead some people into thinking that there were only 5 levels of H tags (as had been erroneously stated, whatever the reasons).

[excell]

oi! what's up with this.. hey what.. you have a promotional vehicle into this forum..

(that's why, I am here).. you come out as *experts*? and you do this..??

get off the high horses and think about the fact that we are ALL learners here.

Far better to listen and learn and grow as you contribute where you can, even as an expert. :)

[janeth]

Black Knight
there is more to a web site then top ranking. Yours could use a design. I just changed for those key words Sunday night here is a short list you can start with
Google
01. custom web site design #1
02. affordable websites #7
03. internet in daily life #2
04. custom website design #6
05. custom web site #1 & 2
06. building custom web sites #1
07. godaddy sucks #1
08. internet effects #8
09. building web sites #11
10. custom websites #2
11. building custom websites #1 & 2
12. Custom web design #5
13. web bot ranking websites #1 & 2
14. how should your page be laid out in a web page #1
15. build a web site #10
16. custom web design #4
17. a geeks website #9
18. a geeks website #10
19. professional building web site builders #8
20. getting a search engine to locate your web page #3 & 4
21. professional building web site builders #8
22. sites related to website designing #5
23. free web sites and builders #8
24. free information building web sites #2
25. free custom site layouts #1
26. how ranking of web sites by search engine done #1 & 2
27. effects of the internet in our daily life #1
28. custom web design prices #2
29. what to use to build web sites #6
30. price estimates for web design #5
31. website design colombia #1
32. why should we design for all #5
33. i want a web site designing #9
34. search engine ranking after switching host #1
35. building a web site #10
36. making money designing web sites #4
37. how to make web sites for free #5
38. website design custom #1
39. design a custom website #2
40. web design ranking popular #4
41. affordable websites #20
42. web site crawling hints meta tags #4
43. Know Web Design Hosting Building #6
44. custom web design free #2
45. "web site" design search engine #1
46. number one of web design #3
47. custom web site views #1
48. custom design web sites #1
49. build search engine free #10
50. Geeks On Steroids #1
51. free custom websites #2
52. find out where website is ranked #3
53. how to build a web site #16
54. custom web sites #1
55. web bot ranking #1
56. how to make custom websites #7
57. custom site design #9
58. free top site design #7
59. how to build a web site for free #13
60. web site designing companies #6
61. make free web sites #20
62. lay out on website design #3
63. custom web work #4
64. custom free #15
65. Free Website Design sites #7
66. Colombia web design #8
67. Colombia custom web design #1
68. Colombia custom web site design #1
69. web site design in Colombia #1
70. web design in Colombia #16
71. web site designing companies #7
72. free website designing #17

Yahoo

[Black Knight]

I repeat - so what?

[janeth]

Hi excell,
I'm very sorry and I'm not going to post in the forms that blackknight is over any more.
I should not have acted the way I did. I felt like to correct something or make a comment can be done in a kind way. I do not need to add to the problems I have with trying to run a business.
I'm sorry for getting upset. I can not post anything with out being jumped on. So it is better not to post.

[mikmik]

Well I for one have great respect for this forum as a place to GIVE as well as get information. We won't have information to gather, regardless the pinpoint accuracy obtained, if no one were to give it.
Now, having placed above priorities in their proper order, it necessarily follows that we must promote the giving of information to discuss in the first place.
Having said that, I give you sauldams reply to janeth's opening to this thread
Thanx for the info Janet ...

Using table summaries also help us with ranking at the same time it provides us the info when we need to review / redo our page...

So then we had a nice discussion going in a pleasant manner for several more posts - which is an atmosphere conducive to the open sharing of thoughts and ideas, AND more importantly, allows the stress free consideration and clear minded understanding and analysis of the presented information. Make absolutely no mistake about it, this is the enviornment that most promotes learning. That is why we are here.

So why does "TheWebDoctor(tm)" have to come along with
I'm not sure which book or group of standards Janeth was reviewing when she cited that there are only 5 sizes of heading tags, but there are actually six. sarcasm?
Is it because the guy with so much authority he trademarked his name had to come across as THE source for information? Why didn't you just ask janeth why she did that? Or would that be to humiliating for you? Would it be to much to ask for you to treat others with respect deserving of a public discussion?
Maybe it is just your transparent attempt at attention seeking vis a vis a 'grandiose entrance' onto the stage with us mere mortals.


There are more levels of <H> tags than you stated. If you are going to give information, it is always important that it should not be misinformation. There are plenty of misinformation, half-facts, and outright myths about SEO, surely the whole point of this forum is as a place to avoid all that, and get the full picture, even if it takes many posts, and many participants, to build that whole picture up. Time to 'gang up', eh Black Knight? Again I point out the first of my points regarding the importance of an atmoshere that really promotes the dissemination of information you claim to value. Of what value is your confrontational approach to this issue that I, for one, considerred over and dealt with. Janeth gave her reasons, in a manner consistent with a response to the aggression of theWebDoctor"TM" and still got back to the subject at hand in order to try to further the discussion. I could go on about alliances and elementary schoolyard type behavior but maybe enough is enough. By far the biggest insult to the forum and us 20,000 plus members though, is seeing the kind of dissenting and fragmenting behavior being displayed by you blechknight. I have been 16 month's total from getting my first computer which I had to phone the shop to ask how to hook up the monitor and turn on properly, to now troubleshooting and repairing 20 workstation networks at a local college and THEN on to learning website development from absolutely zero knowledge to where I am now - already!
If you want to tangle with someone of superior knowledge, bring it on 'cause I know a lot more than what shows, and about a lot more than propeller head stuff. Next time I'll rip apart your grammatical errors on your index pages if you try to act like you think you are something.

If you were working for me and displayed this behavior towards another employee in public, you would be gone so fast that your hair would have whiplash.

I just had a look at the thread before submitting this. Thanks excell.

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:44 pm
Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I repeat - so what?

I say that to you,BK. What do you want to be when you grow up.

[mikmik]

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The first thing many websites do wrong is to promote themselves. This is a mistake. The customer is there to get answers and is only interested in what you can do for them. We must remember the purpose of our business - to give customers what they want. It is not to tell them what you know or show off. To this type of page, a customer is likely to say "SO What?" and leave.

[excell]

:) ... learn and grow... it's the only way to stay fluid.

[mikmik]

Sorry excell, others. You're correct.
I know that I want to be calm and forgiving when I get big! [o;

[Black Knight]

Hi mikmik, if you don't mind, I'll skip the difference of opinion stuff, and go straight to the interesting part:

The first thing many websites do wrong is to promote themselves. This is a mistake. The customer is there to get answers and is only interested in what you can do for them. We must remember the purpose of our business - to give customers what they want. It is not to tell them what you know or show off. To this type of page, a customer is likely to say "SO What?" and leave.

Very true observation, and reminds me of a paragraph I wrote in one of the articles the site is built to house:

If your primary business is sales then you need to keep that focus in mind, and in your content, throughout your website and online campaigns. Don't try to become a portal, or anything else that doesn't actually fit your business plan.

The 'if' that the paragraph begins with is an important one, however. Can you find the sales pitch, the invitation to contact me for business, or the order form on that site? No?

They aren't there. It isn't a business site, its simply a handy way I can test some things out (one of many test sites I maintain) with the added bonus of storing some of my articles, a bio page (gives me something to link to in my Bio for articles I publish), and, yes, its even a little bit of a vanity site. You'd probably be surprised by how many searches a day arrive after searching on my name (I certainly was!) and it seemed right for someone involved in SEO to have at least one site of their own come up in such a search.

The domain was given to me by a satisfied client, the hosting was likewise given free, the Yahoo listing was a free submission, etc, etc. I already mentioned once in another discussion here that the whole site originated from a desire to test (thoroughly) a statement that you don't need a big budget to make a website work (http://www.webmarketingplus.co.uk/marketing_faq/budget.html). The site has never had one single penny spent on it, and sadly has had a lot less time spent on it than it really deserves for the experiment to really show what is possible when one invests time rather than cash into a project.

You're quite right though that the site has no clear purpose to those arriving from the homepage. It works far better for those arriving from searches for specific info such as if they were asking about ebusiness revenue models (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=ebusiness+revenue+models) or improving conversion rates (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=improving+conversion+rates) or even javascript tracking cookie (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=javascript+tracking+cookie) (all recent referrals).

I guess that apart from proving a point, and providing some useful articles for people likely to be searching for specific info along the way, the site doesn't really have a purpose, and it shows. Thankfully, that doesn't have any bearing on my business, but its still something to bear in mind.

[minstrel]

Wow! this thread got vitriolic in a hurry, didn't it?

Maybe it's time we all take a breath, step back, and massage our own egos in private for a while before it gets any worse. I hope we never get to the point where one can't question an opinion, even that of an expert or a moderator, without being subjected to a personal attack, not to mention a "gang kicking".

Different viewpoints and opinions are the whole point of forums like this - and really, anyone who still believes in absolutes should contact someone ASAP for a crash course in reality checking.

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

Mikmik says

sarcasm?
Is it because the guy with so much authority he trademarked his name had to come across as THE source for information? Why didn't you just ask janeth why she did that? Or would that be to humiliating for you? Would it be to much to ask for you to treat others with respect deserving of a public discussion?
Maybe it is just your transparent attempt at attention seeking vis a vis a 'grandiose entrance' onto the stage with us mere mortals.

Well, the short answer is I am the host of The Web Doctor's Radio Show. That's the reason for the trademark.

Second, I will put a mark on your question of humiliation. I am never humiliated.

Why am I an authority?

1> I work with the W3C and help develop the standards.
2> 19 years experience starting on the Arpanet in 1984 for the US Navy.
3> I am a teacher and teach web design.

I guess that is an interesting combination.

At any rate, while a Moderator is looked up to with respect and they cite something incorrect they need to be corrected and sternly corrected at that. There is no reason to not correct a moderator with a direct hand.

Janeth says:

Any way If I want to use something for bold it would be an <h4> tag.
There is more to it then what the search engines see the site should look good. An <h6> tag would be to small to read.

<h4> is not an inline element while the is an inline element. Why would you want to break the flow of your document to use a code incorrectly?

Additionally Janeth states that she doesn't use the <h6> because it is too small to read. I'm curious, do you use the <h1> at the font-size it is naturally? May I suggest you learn how to use CSS and apply that to your codes. You'll have a much more professional page than you would with out it.

Using <h*> tags in their native formats is so old. It is also important to realize that the <font> tag is deprecated and should no longer be used.

Where did I get the list of importance for the elements I listed above?

That's a simple answer. Experience. If you want me to emphasize my 19 years experience I will. [b]I have 19 years experience. Now, that has a bit of sarcasm. <grin>

As for how much I know about search engines, I have a search engine friendly shopping cart that is patent pending. That should carry the implication that I have had to study all the search engines and know which ones do what and what works across the realm.

Janeth asks if Professional Website Design Company is one of my keywords. As a matter of fact, it is. But, don't think all of our clients are listed in our portfolio. Major corporations, government, and military are not listed because the objective of my firm's portfolio is to give a leg up to my small to medium-sized clients so we can get them listed in the search engines faster. There's no need to pay for something when you can get it at no charge. ;) Go Geocities!!!!

My apologies for being long winded, but obviously we needed to cover some issues.

[jackson992]

Guess I'm in trouble then. I just use a h1 tag for my title and set a <font>

[janeth]

I will start by saying I was just trying to get a discussion going but have learned my lesson.

My apologies to everyone. I should have not left out the <h6> tag.

I came to this form to learn. As I started learning and reading things I posted what I learned.
We have great people on this form like the

A quote from both

TheWebDoctor - Why am I an authority?

and

Black Knight - You'd probably be surprised by how many searches a day arrive after searching on my name (I certainly was!)

We are lucky to have great gods like these among us and I should not have voiced my own opinion.

They are right I'm wrong.

When you read a site and get information on line even if that site is a #1 ranked site for a hard to get key word make sure you check with these guys first.

There the best. Thanks so much guys for correcting all my wrongs.

[mikmik]

mikmik wrote
I repeat - so what?


I say that to you,BK. What do you want to be when you grow up.

I have one question for mikmik - Do you ask yourself that question? I mean, if losing your temper is a sign of needing growth then it looks like you are worse than webdoctor and blacknight. At least they didn't call anyone names! You say you are so smart but being hypocritical just makes you look silly and is degrading to the forum. If you weren't so handsome and debonair, I would really let you have. By the way, what is that thing on your shoulders anyway? Why does my cat arch it's back and hiss when she sees it? Now she won't come out from under stove, either. SSHHEEEESSHH !

[mikmik]

I was just protecting janeth. I have learned lots from her and even minstrel. The truth is that they all know more than I do, lots more that I want to learn. I would do the same if I thought you were being attacked, though, or even anyone else for that matter, including those two guys!
Thanks for the compliment but I'm not sure what you mean aboot the cat and stuff.

And yes, I have asked me that. I used to want to be a fire truck but now I'm leaning towards web development and hopefully programming. We'll see [o;

[minstrel]

I was just protecting janeth. I have learned lots from her and even minstrel (emphasis added).

"even minstrel"? :-) well, thanks... I guess...


I used to want to be a fire truck but now I'm leaning towards web development and hopefully programming.

In fact, on the west coast these days there may be more demand for fire-trucks than tech-types...

I still plan to be a rock star but I guess I'll have to wait until I'm as old as Mick Jagger and Keith Richards (and hope I don't look half as bad when I get there)...

[janeth]

I want to say thanks for the people that have emailed me and to the ones that have posted trying to help me. Thanks to both mik mik and minstrel but I think we need to get on a topic here of some sort.

Since the thread started out about <h> tags how many Different types of <h> tags should be used on a site.
And if you use <h1>, <h2> and <h3> on the home page should you try to only use those three for the rest of the site to keep the look the same?

[mikmik]

Even minstrel = I was just saying hi! and you're such a good sport and all. But then I remembered that the last time I got overexcited, towards sauldam over spam, it was your calm and reasoned responce that brought me back down to earth, so I guess I wasn't even kidding around when I alluded to your 'instruction', if you will!
You make a good point about the 'Rock megagod' career and another one I refuse to let go of is 'pro athlete'. I've pretty much eliminated them all except for the Senior PGA, but I suppose that I should learn to golf first...(but I digress - in all manner but chronological)

I have a question regarding use of keywords and CSS.
Does anyone know if the bots would recognize keyword use in div tags if I used, for instance,
<style type="text/css">
#webdesign{property:value;}
(or)
.design{property:value;}
</style>

like this:
<body>
<div id="webdesign">Click thislink (URL).
</div>
</body>

Or if you were to use them in known usefull tags like this: <h1 class="design">.
Anyone know this?
Thanks all [o;

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

Janeth poses this question:

Since the thread started out about <h> tags how many Different types of <h> tags should be used on a site.
And if you use <h1>, <h2> and <h3> on the home page should you try to only use those three for the rest of the site to keep the look the same?

Heading tags are used like chapter and subchapter and topic sections in a book. It is always best to realize that a page in your site is a new chapter and the site itself is a book.

I perceive Janeth as a Thespian so I will relate it in this manner for all of our Thespian friends. A web site is a play. A web page is an act. A section within the web page is a scene.

So, as with a site on web design. The main title is on the first page of the site. If the focus is "free web design" then the title on the first page should be "Free Web Design". Information within that page should be ordered in such a way that it describes the "free web design" and include headings that catch the eye and carry the reader from one train of thought to the next.

If a section does not fall within the "Free Web Design" then it should be on another page. Yet, there will be times when the information is subservient of the first H1 tag. That information should be under an H2 tag.

Then again, that information may be equal in value to the first H1 tag and may merit an H1 tag of it's own. That decision is left up to the copywriter.

MikMik wrote me in private message and I simply want to say thank you MikMik. Your thoughts were profound and I appreciate your comments. I won't relate what was said, but let's just say that I appreciate his comments.

My position was not to beleague anyone, but rather to correct something I knew was incorrect. You will find a great number of people in forums that lead credence to the fact that not everyone knows everything. I myself have been corrected to some degree, even though the correction was slightly off I let it go.

Starting a bantering about why one is right when corrected isn't productive. Take the correction and move on. But, don't call me on my radio show and ask about programming and graphics. I'll give you the short answer here: I don't discuss programming on my show and I'll quickly tell you that graphics are a non-issue. Content is king and that is the reason people have decided to visit your web site. They don't visit web sites to see all the fancy non-productive graphics that a graphics designer can put into a page.

I hope this helps everyone.

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

MikMik asked:

I have a question regarding use of keywords and CSS.
Does anyone know if the bots would recognize keyword use in div tags if I used, for instance,
<style type="text/css">
#webdesign{property:value;}
(or)
.design{property:value;}
</style>

like this:
<body>
<div id="webdesign">Click thislink (URL).
</div>
</body>

As you have it, webdesign is one word. But that is an interesting question. Honestly, it is one that I have never had asked of me previously.

It would be my thought that the information is HTML and not content. Therefore, it would have no high relevance factor.

Conversely, I know that if you name an image something like this "website_design.jpg" it is considered content because the image is content, but I have not seen it hold any major relevance factor.

I hope this helps.

[Black Knight]

The way that how we structure and name things may impart meaning about them (even to search engines) is a field called Latent Semantic Indexing (http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&q=Latent+Semantic+Indexing) (or LSI for those who want to mention it more than once without wearing away the skin on their fingers).

Search, and data retrieval in general, is still a young science in real terms, and further research and development of techniques, strategies and methods are ongoing on a daily basis for all search engines, but most especially the major ones. Because of that, LSI is still young too, and as yet has only just begun to be properly explored and tested for application within search.

Reading some of the material listed in the link may help you to get ahead of the game a little, or may as easily cause you to chase things that may never be implemented.

[jackson992]

One thing you want to make sure not to do is use to many <H> tags. I think this hurts more than it helps. Also, what doctor posted above about having unrelated topics on a separate page is good unless you're like me and use a site map:P

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

jackson992 cites:
[quote]One thing you want to make sure not to do is use to many <H> tags. I think this hurts more than it helps. Also, what doctor posted above about having unrelated topics on a separate page is good unless you're like me and use a site map:P[quote]

The only way an <h> tag will hurt is when a designer or SEO expert inadvertantly sets the entire page to a heading. That would be considered spam.

Sitemap, what's a sitemap? Just kidding.

A site map is used to give search engines and users a quick way to find pages. It helps get pages indexed faster because a search engine can find the various pages without digging through pounds of links.

Having different topics on a sitemap is not contrary to the rule. It is simply a tool. If the site map would have more than 100 links on it, it is highly recommended to have the site map broken into categories on separate pages. Search engines will appreciate that.

Google states that is prefers pages with less than 100 links coming from a page.

I hope this helps.

[jackson992]

Doctor:

What about shopping sites? I run an online mall site and naturally the front page is not going to have just one topic. I have recently started experimenting with having different products up each month so that makes it more focused. I got the impression that you shouldn't use the main site title on every page. I use Online Shopping at Discount Prices for my title on every page. Then I add the category to that title. So for example: Online Shopping at Discount Prices: Discount Digital Cameras. Is this doing me more harm than good?

One last question. Is more or less text better? I have been playing with my products pages and trying to display them two different ways

1. product - No Description
2. product - Description

It seems to me the keyword density would be better without a description if say I'm going for the term digital cameras

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

Jack,
Since I didn't have reference to the site you were mentioning, I took a look at your other sites.

On your Dinnerware site your title is too long. It should be a maximum of 15 words. You have 17 which is okay, but your problem there is your not specific enough in your title.

I reviewed your issues further and discovered you have your stores hosted on YahooStores. That in itself is a problem.

The problem most people have when competing in the global economy is they focus upon generalities and not specifics. People can attempt to focus upon generalities and more often than not fail. When you focus upon specifics your success rates increase.

Take this example:
There are thousands of people that sell RCA televisions. But not all of them carry the same models. When a person finds they want a specific model, they will come on the Internet to research that specific model. They may even purchase from the vendor with the lowest cost versus going into town to buy.

Of course, people will say that's bolderdashe, but it's a fact. Seventy percent of the people on the Internet use the Internet as a form of research platform. Forty-five percent of the people on the Internet change their brand loyalty due to research on the Internet.

What does this mean to you? Simply, it means that if you have a brick-and-mortar store your clientele may be researching your products online to purchase them offline. If your competitor has a web site and you don't, they will find that and then possibly purchase from your competitor because of their web site and the information they provide. It boils down to "no pressure" or "low pressure" and allows them to become educated on the product so that the sales person can't bamboozle them into something they are not wanting.

Now, back to your questions, my apologies for tangenting there.

On the use of

Online Shopping at Discount Prices: Discount Digital Cameras[/url]

The only words of any real value are Discount Digital Cameras. That is what you offer and that is what you need to promote first and foremost. Putting the other information in your title devalues those three words. One should not devalue the primary topic of the page.

You also want to back that topic up with an <h1> tag in the main content. There are other methods that can be beneficial. CSS helps in that area.

[quote]
One last question. Is more or less text better?

Every search engine requires at least a certain amount of text. The average is 200 words in the content. Those words can be in the form of text links, heading tags, and regular content. So, the short answer is, use at least 200 words.

The first paragraph should include at least one instance of the desired phrase or keyword. It indicates to the search engines that the topic is indeed about the topic in the title.

I preach this all the time, so here goes. Each page is like a chapter in a book. If you read a book you'll normally find the chapter title used somehow in the first paragraph. If you don't, the author isn't doing their job correctly. Now, you have to realize that chapters in fictional books typically have chapter numbers and not chapter titles. Books of a technical nature have specific chapter titles and typically include the chapter title in the first paragraph in that chapter.

Tangeting again: Do a search on Google for Apple Pie Shopping Cart. But, don't get it confused with "warm_apple_pie_shopping_cart*.html" from a candle company in Maine.

You may find it a beneficial tool to help your business.

[jackson992]

ok all that sounds good. I have to questions.

1. If I don't use Online Shopping at Discount Prices on every page how will the visitor know that it's my site

2. Sounds like you're promoting going after more specific products instead of general products. I thought of having just one product per page and using the product name to optimize for. What do you think?

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

Interestingly enough Apple Pie Shopping Cart takes care of that problem for you. All returned pages are Native HTML.

The situation you are wanting to put yourself into is murderous. If you want to do this by hand, I recommend the following concept.

Build yourself a set of category pages, list the items on the category pages, and then link the items to their individual page. This concept allows you to two things - promote the category and promote the item separately.

For example, let's say we have a site that sells televisions. On the site we have five brands. Each brand will have its own category. Each category lists the various models of that brand. Each model has a separate page for singular promotion.

If you do this correctly, you will be able to elevate your categories and your singular items.

Here's how the search engines work in regard to this concept:

Results from Google:

Televisions - 2,380,000
TVs - 2,680,000 (has results not in the television realm)
TV - 91,500,000 (has results for more than just televisions)

Plasma Television - 341,000
RCA Television - 274,000

RCA D52W20 52 in. Standard Television - 609

Now, if your page showing selling the specific item could be optimized for best results fairly easily. This makes your competition a lot smaller and more easily managable.

So, yes, I promote specifics. I was interviewed by Investor's Business Daily on October 21, 2003 regarding this practice. http://www.thewebdoc.net/article20cat24page.html

I hope this helps.

[PhilC]

I know that everyone has aged somewhat, and had grandchildren, since this thread was last posted to, but I've only just seen it and, somehow, I just can't bring myself not to comment - sorry.


TheWebDoctor said:-

Why am I an authority?

1> I work with the W3C and help develop the standards.
2> 19 years experience starting on the Arpanet in 1984 for the US Navy.
3> I am a teacher and teach web design.

I guess that is an interesting combination.

At any rate, while a Moderator is looked up to with respect and they cite something incorrect they need to be corrected and sternly corrected at that. There is no reason to not correct a moderator with a direct hand.
No, WebDoctor, it's not an "interesting combination" at all. None of those things make you an authority on the discussion in this thread, or on search engines, any more than they make you an authority on plumbing.

Your item 3 (teacher) is the interesting one. The word "education" is based on the Latin word "educo", which means to draw out. It has nothing to do with sternly correcting people who may have made a mistake. As a teacher, you seem to have quite a bit to learn. Forums are not for sternly correcting people - they are for debating and helping people. You would do well to learn how to correct people (teach) in a helpful way. This thread began with a helpful post; it took off when you corrected a mistake by talking down to the person, as though you were some kind of seo expert, which, judging by your posts, you are not.

Incidentally, your claimed 19 years of experience isn't valid experience at all. The web didn't even begin until the early 90s, and search engines didn't come along until after that. So why claim 19 years of experience?


he also said...

As for how much I know about search engines, I have a search engine friendly shopping cart that is patent pending. That should carry the implication that I have had to study all the search engines and know which ones do what and what works across the realm.
I'm sorry, but it doesn't carry any such implication. It only takes a few minutes to learn how to make pages search engine friendly, and the knowledge bestows only a very small amount of search engine expertise.

And finally...
Your 'levels of importance' list of HTML elements may be correct for HTML, but it isn't correct for search engines.

[vilesilencer]

Wow! this thread got vitriolic in a hurry, didn't it?

Maybe it's time we all take a breath, step back, and massage our own egos in private for a while before it gets any worse. I hope we never get to the point where one can't question an opinion, even that of an expert or a moderator, without being subjected to a personal attack, not to mention a "gang kicking".

Different viewpoints and opinions are the whole point of forums like this - and really, anyone who still believes in absolutes should contact someone ASAP for a crash course in reality checking.

Ahhh the voice of reason in the volcanic vitriol.

Absolutes in anything to do with the web or IT... forget it, oh wait, Microshonk is still behaving badly isn't it? We NEED that absolute.

Ahh but seriously Minstrel, brilliant point, because given enough time the comments made on page 1 of this thread will be obsolete. They may even be incorrect.

;)

[ritaperdue]

Okay, can someone tell me the difference between PR and search engine ranking? and how do I find out where my site stands in each?
Thanks,
Rita Perdue, Pick My Gift.Com

[minstrel]

Okay, can someone tell me the difference between PR and search engine ranking? and how do I find out where my site stands in each?

Search engine ranking is how far down in the list of search engine reults your website is listed when you enter certain keywords or keyphrases into one of the search boxes for Google, AltaVista, AllTheWeb, AskJeeves, MSN Search, etc.

PageRank or PR is a Google rating of the importance of a particular website - it is one of the factors that determines where you appear in Google search results, but not the only one.

For more information, see PR, PageRank, and page ranking (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10923).

[Mel]

I will start by saying I was just trying to get a discussion going but have learned my lesson.

My apologies to everyone. I should have not left out the <h6> tag.

I came to this form to learn. As I started learning and reading things I posted what I learned.
We have great people on this form like the

A quote from both

TheWebDoctor - Why am I an authority?

and

Black Knight - You'd probably be surprised by how many searches a day arrive after searching on my name (I certainly was!)

We are lucky to have great gods like these among us and I should not have voiced my own opinion.

They are right I'm wrong.

When you read a site and get information on line even if that site is a #1 ranked site for a hard to get key word make sure you check with these guys first.

There the best. Thanks so much guys for correcting all my wrongs.

Sorry to post to a thread so old but a new posting brought this to my attention.

No Janeth you are not wrong at all, you made a posting in an effort to try to help people, and got stomped on by self appointed experts whose only purpose seemed to be to prove that they know more than you.

I question that self appointed expertise.

Webdocter, the fact that you have a radio show, wrote a book, teach web design and have longer internet experience than the web itself gives me no indication whatever that you know anything about search engines and some of your statements about how search engines work seem to indicate an appalling lack of knowledge. Speaking for myself, the more people trumpet their expertise the less I listen to them.

The purpose of a forum IMO is for the two way flow of information, not as a lecture pulpit.

I commend Janeth on her attempts to share her knowledge, even if she did make a minor error.

[janeth]

Hi Mel and Phil,

Too bad you where not around about 4 months ago when all this fun was happening (-:

Thanks very much for both of your comments though

[ITGProductions]

I've been reading and re-reading this post, trying to look objectively at the conversations and opinions from all sides. Wondering if this conversation is about being right , accurate or as a measure of basic information. Well that's simple enough as it covers all those bases. A person makes a posted comment (for whatever reason) and another adds to / disagree's with / or expands upon. It's a basic human dynamic in interaction in a digital medium such as this.

Each of us has our own reason, methods and way of doing things to achieve our personal desired results. Be it from being taught, or lessons learned and even tried and true methods. But somehow from time to time we tend to forget (and it's easy to do when sitting in front of a screen and fingers tapping the keys while the mind isn't fully engaged) that we are all but human.

"A person with thin skin should never interact with another." (me)

TO...

Janeth: Take a deep breath and move on...

TheWebDotor: "Each page is like a chapter in a book".

excell: The reason for my post.

Black Knight: Although you made some valid points, you came off rude and arrogant in your posts with an "in your face attitude."


"Internet and how it affects society and invention; movies and books; technology; history." It all matters in the big picture. Now make your next interaction meaningful!