Why is THIS site #1 in google????

[jvanv8]

We are getting beat badly (not even in the top 100 :( for a keyword that I want to rank highly for. I wont type any URLS but the pages I am referring to are the #1 and #2 sites in google (yahoo also) for the keyword 'wreath'

The #2 page is just plain dreadful from a design standpoint. They have flooded the closest content to the body with animated gifs inside div tags. There is also hardly any content at all. Basically it looks like a bunch of banner ads (but there is a link in there somewhere to see wreaths.) A PR of 5 doesn't seem all that much higher than my 4.
1 keyword in Title
0 keyword in linking text (40 links total!)
0 alt tags
0 meta keyword list (38 total)
0 meta description list (29 total)
0 Heading tags (0 total)
40 instances of wreath in Hyperlink URL summary (from domain name I guess)
1 comment with wreath
2 keywords in BODY TEXT (only 135 total)

44 keywords total
11% weight
18% prominance


The new #1 site looks a LITTLE better but still has major problems... They have no link text for "wreath", 1 out of 26 alt tags and a HUGE H1 tag filled with a lengthy "welcome" paragraph totaling 140 words with 2 of them being "wreath"
0 Meta keywords
0 Meta description
0 Text Link
1 Title
2 Heading (2 words out of 140
1 Alt
3 Hyperlink URL summary (for domain name)
0 Comments

9 keywords total
2.7% weight
27.2% ave promenence

Aside from the 140 word H1 tag, they only have 48 words in the body!! 2 of which are 'wreath'.

Here's my page
1 in Title
3 in Keywords
2 in description
3 in heading
3 in link text
6 in hyperlink url summary (twig-wreath . html etc)
1 in alt
0 in comments
8 in body text

27 total keywords in page
9.1% Weight
84.7% Ave Prominence


What gives here. I don't have any animated gifs or FrontPage auto generated pages... maybe that's my problem :)
Thanks for any help, advice, or condolances!
John

[mm99]

I looked at both the sites and they are awful. There ought to be a law against amimations of bears chugging honey and some old coot playin' his banjo in a rocking chair.

I took a look at your source and you do have text that I assume would be displayed if the browser cannot read it. I'm not real familiar with the technique, although I should be, but have heard of it.

One thing that could be the problem. I noticed that for about 1 second, there is another page loading and then it refreshes to the one you stick with. That is probably part of the problem.

I noticed some java reload in the head, but I don't know java, and I'm not sure what it does. I do know that reloading or meta redirects can cause a lot of problems at times.

Maybe if you clean that up and simplify the code a bit, it might help. Why is one page loading for a second anyway, then jumping to the other page. Could it be an error?

peace...Paul

[jvanv8]

Yeah, I agree with you Paul, that #2 website is almost so bad it's like someone was actually TRYING to make a "bad UI design website". That background tiles nicely don't you think? Even if they are getting traffic, I doubt many people are sticking around the site long.

Anyway, the "reloading" that my site does is not a page reload at all. The first image is a preloader (notice the "% loaded" at the bottom) which is just initalizing the site. Its all flash, no HTML at all so there is no HTML code to clean up. The javascript is autoinserted by Dreamweaver MX everytime you save a webpage. I guess it fixes a bug with folks who have Netscape 4. It doesn't do anything really. The HTML content that we have becomes visible only if the user does not have the flash plugin. It also helps for useability since text readers (people who are hard of sight or blink typically use them) can know what our site is about.

Still, with the analysis of the #1 and #2 sites, I really can see why they are placed so high.

I've got a new strategy of looking up what pages think to our competitors using the Alexa toolbar. Most of them are just "Add a link" pages so I just enter our site right next to theirs. Is this a good idea? Saves me the hassle of searching around for link submission sites... The only thing they have that I don't is a Yahoo Category link. Not the regular yahoo, the yahoo asia, yahoo canada, yahoo singapore, uk yahoo, and yahoo india as well as a google directory listing (dmoz). Why would they be listed on just about ALL yahoo sites etc for the regular yahoo site?

That Banjo player in the rocking chair is great. I think web developers everywhere should take not of this site because (quote from their website)
the most exquisite wreath web site that you will ever find!

What a riot,
John

[cbp]

John

I had a look at your site (assuming its the one in your signature) - given that there is no text there for Google to spider, how did you arrive at the:


1 in Title
3 in Keywords
2 in description
3 in heading
3 in link text
6 in hyperlink url summary (twig-wreath . html etc)
1 in alt
0 in comments
8 in body text


It does not look like this to me.

You also stated that its all flash - Google does not index flash.

CBP

[jvanv8]

Yes there is text on the site for spiders. It's located under the flash movie in the event that Flash is not present, you can see it in the source if you want. Those stats are from our wreath.html page.

I checked and I did find both sites listed in the regular yahoo site. Is it that important to get listed in yahoo?

Just based on the stats, I can't see why these sites are succeeding.

[minstrel]

Yes there is text on the site for spiders. It's located under the flash movie in the event that Flash is not present, you can see it in the source if you want.

I don't see it. What I see is this:



<div class="flash" id="flashvariables"> <h1 class="flashtext">Maine Wreaths</h1><h1 class="flashtext">Christmas wreath Decorations</h1><p class="flashtext">Christmas wreaths, Maine Ornaments and Custom wreath designs from the shores of Maine. Order a Christmas wreath (wreath.html) online. We carry a full line of summer wreaths as well, including grapevine indoor wreaths to brighten up your home decor. </p> We stock elegant Maine evergeen wreaths, as well as artificial wreaths ( everlasting ). Be sure to experiment with our interactive Custom wreath builder where you can make your own craft based on your preferences. Your Maine Source for Christmas ornaments (christmas-ornament.html), and Custom Designs.</span> Fresh from Maine, our x-mas wreaths are perfect for indoor or outdoor use. Summer twig wreaths use dried flowers and natural sea shells for an elegant nautical decor theme. Your source for Christmas wreath (christmas-wreaths.html), ocean gifts and xmas ornament gifts. Maine Island Illusions offers exquisite ocean theme decor for your home. Select from our line of gifts from Maine such as a unique fairy or angel ornament or figurine made from authentic Maine sea urchin shells. These include the Angel of Love, Hope, Light, and Peace. Perfect for hanging on the tree or mantle display. We also offer unique fairy ornaments including the Sugar Plum Fairy, the Fairy Queen, and the lovely Flower Fairy. Select from our line of christmas decorations and other home decorations suitable for spring, summer, fall, or winter. Our Angel and Fairy Figurine decorations (angel-figurines.html) make the perfect gift for a loved one. Be sure not to miss our maine christmas wreath (maine-christmas-wreath.html) catolog full of excellent decorations and ornaments for your christmas tree as well as our floral wreaths (floral-wreaths.html) and container gardens (container-garden.html) , nautical decor (nautical-decor.html) and angel figurines (angel-figurines.html), xmas wreath (xmas-wreath.html) anniversary gift idea (anniversary-gift.html)artificial wreath (artificial-wreath) angel of love anniversary gift (angel-of-love)</p>Maine wreath (maine-wreaths.html) And nautical gift ideas (nautical-gift.html). New for this fall, Fall wreath (fall-wreath.html) Christmas ornament (ornament.html) . The perfect compliment to autumn foliage in Maine. Makes a great gift. More holiday decorations (maine-christmas-wreath.html) and Christian gift (christian-gift.html) and nautical gifts (nautical-boat-gifts.html), romantic gift (romantic-gift.html) View the html version here HTML Shopping cart version (you are currently viewing the Paypal Flash Shopping Cart version) (shop/)
</div>


followed by instructions for downloading Flash or clicking on a link to an html-only page:


<div id="flashrequired" style="position:absolute; width:499px; height:325px; z-index:8; left: 0px; top: 0px; visibility: visible;">
<div class="flashrequired">


</p>


You computer is not capable of viewing Macromedia Flash pages so...


images/MIILogoSmall.jpg (/shop)

Please Click Here to enter the Maine Island Illusions HTML site (/shop)


or download the latest flash player below.</p>


</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>


Maine Island Illusions requires Flash Player 6 or 7

If the site does not begin loading please <a href="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/triggerpages_mmcom/flash.html" target="_blank">download
the player free from Macromedia</a>
If you see a download dialog box it means that your computer does not
have the latest version. Click on Accept and you will be ready to visit the site.

The download takes approximately 9 seconds on a dialup modem.

</p>
</div>
</div>


I don't use Flash and I don't pretend to be an expert on Flash but isn't all this embedded in Flash code? Will Google ever see this?

[mm99]

"I've got a new strategy of looking up what pages think to our competitors using the Alexa toolbar" - yes, that's a great idea and that's what it's for.

Minstrel copied the source code that does have a lot of text for the ses to see. One thing I do quite often is use a utility called a spider simulator. You can find it in the lower part of the middle column under "what the SE sees" at:

http://www.usnet.tk/

I won't put it all here. Just check it out. This gives me a real good idea of changes that I might want to make, if I can see what the ses see. You have a real good chunk of text for the engines to spider.

I would think you would do ok. Have you REALLY done a lot of submissions? To Dirs? What have you done so far?

peace...Paul

[minstrel]

One thing I do quite often is use a utility called a spider simulator. You can find it in the lower part of the middle column under "what the SE sees" at: http://www.usnet.tk/

I just tried Paul's suggestion and indeed according to the Spider Sim it sees all that text and your links... try it yourself here:

http://www.searchengineworld.com/cgi-bin/sim_spider.cgi

[minstrel]

Someone in a different thread
(see http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=33200#33200)
has suggested that spider sims may be generic and therefore what the spider sim says may not be what a specific spider (e.g., Google bot) will retrieve...

Any thoughts on this, Paul?

[GooMoo]

another member suggested this tool, i really like it http://gritechnologies.com/tools/spider.go

there's a little trick with div's to put some text in a mainly graphic or flash site that will up your keyword density as well, view source my site, you won't miss it. moving that div to the top of the body also means it's first in the data stream, so it's the first thing google see's as text.

also, links to relevant sites increase ranking. if you put "link:www.urlhere.com" into google, you can see how many sites are linking to your competitors. i looked at the two sites you mentioned, they had 40 and 49 sites linking to the respectively.

a plain html site might be a good idea too, with each home link pointing to the domain itself rather than the relatively placed home file. though most people will like the flash site better, the plain html with corresponding links will up your ranking a little bit too. hope this helps!

PS: isn't maine beautiful? i grew up in augusta!

[minstrel]

Isn't Maine beautiful? I grew up in Augusta!

There's an Augusta in Maine? I thought it was in Georgia....

I love the New England states, though... Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire... gorgeous, especially this time of year...

[minstrel]

Another member suggested this tool, I really like it: http://gritechnologies.com/tools/spider.go


Wow! That is tres cool!!! :-)


If you put "link:www.urlhere.com" into google, you can see how many sites are linking to your competitors.

Actually, that won't show ALL sites linking to you in Google...
(see http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html)

However, you can use the same technique in AltaVista and some other search engines...

[jvanv8]

Yup, it's nice this time of year - leaves are at their peak right now (maybe a few days past) - Broke out the ice scraper for the first time this morning. And yes minstrel, there is an Augusta, Maine... its the, um, state capital :) I played a lot of ice hockey down at KIA. We're about 1.5 hours up the coast from there.

Anyway, I am positive the spiders see the text. Its valid HTML contained in a div, dynamically placed by an external CSS file so that it's underneith the flash layer. If the person does not have the plug-in, they see the text and the link to the HTML version (which we do have). Its also great for text readers.

The HTML site (same domain, different directory) wasn't previously linking to the main flash site but I recently changed that so every page now contains a link back to default (flash) homepage. I think this will help the next time we get indexed.

I have been sumitting to a lot of "Submit Your Link" pages by just following the leads from the links Alexa shows for our competitors. Is any link a good link? Some require a receprical link. Is this ok?

Is it worth $300 to get into a Yahoo directory? I think its a bit steep for our little site but if it saves me all this SEO time...

Aside from the links, if SEO really is a science and a skill, then I would think that analyzing the raw statistics on a keyword from site A vs. site B would show why one site is ranked higher than another. Otherwise, it must have to do with incoming links, right?

GooMoo, that site you suggested is GREAT!
I also agree with you on placing things in DIV's. The first HTML site I made uses only DIV's and CSS - no tables. I think it helps with SEO since you can place teh main titles and content right close to the body tag and stick all the nonimportant stuff (ads, banners, graphics, disclaimers, copyrights) down at the bottom near the /BODY tag.

Cheers
John

[minstrel]

And yes minstrel, there is an Augusta, Maine... its the, um, state capital :)

And, as you may know, Canadians love to make fun of Americans for not knowing anything about Canada... then again, other than ice hockey, our only real hobbies are electing lousy political leaders and looking down on the U.S. :-)

Oh well... I only came close to failing two subjects in my academic career: Geography and Economics... I can still get lost in a parking lot, I have been know to drive right past my own house, and my banker can attest to the fact that I haven't got any better at economics with age...

[apisdesign]

Get more sites related to 'wreaths' to link to you. This is the single biggest factor in Google's ranking decision.

Your response to this is probably 'duh', but I thought I had to write it.


Cheers.

[mm99]

Minstrel you wrote this earlier:

"Someone in a different thread
(see http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=33200#33200)
has suggested that spider sims may be generic and therefore what the spider sim says may not be what a specific spider (e.g., Google bot) will retrieve...

Any thoughts on this, Paul?"

That link lead to my response to the question about the sim being generic. All the sims do is strip away the stuff the ses don't read, so if it spiders, you'll get a good pic of what adjustments you might want to make to your site. I've seen some real doozies in my day. It just gives you a good clear pic of things.

Just to ad to the comments about the awful #2 site. Click the link to the designers in the lower right. Click their portfolio link at the bottom of their homepage.

When you get there click the yellow dodad in the middle of the page. Yep, that's where their wonderful portfolio is located. A new window will open with thumbnail shots of 15 other sites they have "designed".

I was absolutely floored when I saw this. This is the most amazing collection of trash I've ever seen in one place on the net. Believe me, you WILL fall of you're chair reviewing their designs. I even saw the bear drinking honey and moose nodding once again.

It's been a long time since I've seen anything this amusing on the net, a LONG time.

peace...Paul

[jvanv8]

Thanks for the tip Paul - what a great resource of laughs. I particularly liked the quote from the designerz website that said
Our web sites can be correctly viewed with Internet Explorer only.I doubt I could get away with that! But it's also good to know that they do consulations for $100 an hour. I'll definately take advantage of that bargin.

I've been finding where our competitors have links and submitting our link if the page has a "Add URL" feature. Alexa still says that no pages link to our site however - perhaps it just takes a few months for that to get updated.

This is more than getting a high ranking, this is about saving the general public from being subject to really, really bad "designz" :)

- John

[mm99]

I saw the all important Internet Explorer note to. Wonder what this would look like on a mac. Eech! Here in Phoenix I can get 4 hookers for $100/hr. I guess it depends on what you want. A website like that, or...

Look under the trading links area of this forum for possible links. I have a couple of things there my self and will place you in a couple of places. One of the posts is for a help page that is a freebie and is great. Just look for it under mm99.

Just use that toolbar you mentioned. I have never used their software but I have read the complete documentation for it. Pretty much what it does is automate finding link partners. You look at the competition and their link situation and proceed from there.

What have you done as far as submissions go? Let's see what we can do about this goog wreath problem. I support the effort 100%. "I'm on a mission from God", Blues Brothers...

peace...Paul

[minstrel]

Here in Phoenix I can get 4 hookers for $100/hr.

Hmmm.... and no doubt they're worth every penny...

Not even going to ASK how you came by this piece of information...

[mm99]

I googled it. Google does not lie!

peace...Paul

[minstrel]

I googled it. Google does not lie!
peace...Paul

As a female Crown Attorney said to me recently, after I'd made a comment during "expert testimony about differences between men and women, and then tried to correct the inadvertenjt negative implication that she pointed out, "Nice recovery!" :-)

A few minutes later, as I tried to reassure her that I had not meant to imply what she thought, the judge, also a woman, remarked gently, "Perhaps you should just stop there...".

[jackson992]

Google sucks! I cannot see why links to your site should have more weight than good SEO

[cbp]

Google sucks! I cannot see why links to your site should have more weight than good SEO

Google's logic is that what you do on your site is under your control (regardless of if its good SEO or spam). What goes on other sites is not under your control or less under your control (eg anchor text of incoming links), so is less likely be the result of spam. Whether this means Google sucks or not is a moot point - its the way of the world (for now) and good SEO takes it into account.

CBP

[jackson992]

ahhh but it has nothing to do with good SEO:P

[jvanv8]

ok, so SEO no longer applies to getting on top of search engines... so lets change focus. What is a "good link" in the eyes of a spider. I got our link on some sites but our PageRank which was 4 (with 0 links according to Alexa) now has a PageRank of 3. PageRank probably doesn't matter but you'd think with some incoming links that I would at least see a boost in our ranking for some of our keywords...

- John

[jackson992]

I think you misunderstood. PR IMO has nothing to do with search rankuing or if so a very small part.

[jvanv8]

I agree. That's what I was saying. PR probably doesn't have much to do with it.
PageRank probably doesn't matter but you'd think with some incoming links that I would at least see a boost in our ranking for some of our keywords...

So if PR has no effect. And webpage SEO has no effect. Then it must be incoming links right?

- John

[william3]

jvanv8

I don't understand.
It's quite obvious why this guy ranks #1.

I can already hear all the SEO experts telling me to get lost.

Content, Content, Content.

Incoming links? Ahh the new SEO fad.

Important Sad But True:
Often you'll have to give up a bit on a pretty website for content.
Content has been king since 1994 and will always be.

Rather than asking why this guy is first. Have a nice long look at his source code. And very soon it should be obvious.

Learn from the ranking Websites

Maybe check on some new tools:
You'll have to dig through some affiliate links
But some top recommendations exsist for getting back to the basics.
Dxhtml.com (http://dxhtml.com/wolf.html)

Fact is people use google the most, (right now that is.) Some of my sites have No Link Popularity, but I have first page ranking on all.


Stay hard at work on studying this guys content.
Then simply mimick it.

Basic but true.

[DrTandem1]

First off, I agree that those two top sites suck. Especially the one with the banner ads. I'll tell you why that one is number one:

With a page rank of 5, it must have a lot of links pointing towards it. Hence, all the reciprocal banner ads. Another reason, and this is a big one with Google, the URL has the keyword in it. Their title tag also uses the keyword twice. The title tag is also a huge hitter with Google.

God, that site is bad! It's proof that Google doesn't care about quality.

Anyway, you can't control that site nor Google's ranking of it. So, let's look at what is wrong with your site:

You use a splash page. Not only that, but it's made up entirely of flash. If a human can't copy-and-paste text from the actual page, consider that it is not there for the search engines.

Your URL has nothing to do with wreaths. I would have guessed that your site had something to do with magic. Wreaths would never have crossed my mind. Although, it's not critical that the domain name has a keyword, it sure helps. Not only with Google, but with your human visitors as well.

Further more, since we already know the URL to get there, why does the splash page repeat the domain name? If you're going to use a splash page, why not just have a nice headline (real text) saying "Wreaths"? Or a graphic with a picture of a wreath with an alt text that says "wreath"?

Next, how the heck do I enter your site? Okay, there's a tiny link for HTML version going to "/shop" hidden at the bottom of the page. Maybe I'm missing something? To be honest, I don't think it would matter, if you were number one in all of the search engines for wreaths. You would probably get very little business from it. A visitor needs to be able to get into the site! Lose the splash page and make the "shop" page your index file.

You need to stop worrying about the search engines and start focusing on the visitors. Things like "Site Requirements" followed by a list of screen resolutions and plug-ins are a no-no. Why not just say, "Viewed best on my computer, using my plug-ins, on my monitor, at my favorite resolution, on my connection in my house?" An e-commerce site needs to be very compatible across a wide variety of connections, operating systems and monitors.

After you make a site that is user (human) friendly, then go after the robots. Don't forget link popularity. A quick check found less than 25 links to your site. I don't even know, if they were all external to your own site.

One last thing, why should a visitor log-in or register at your site? Another obstacle to kill a sale.

[DrTandem1]

One other thing about that "top" wreath site with all of the banner ads. I went to the link for "Maine Web Dezign" and their portfolio consists of sites that belong to them. It's like they created a site for each thing they sell.

Of course, each of these "separate" sites has links to all of the other sites. So there's your answer. Simply create a dozen or so sites and have them all link to each other.

I really found it funny that they state that they only design their own web sites.

[minstrel]

Some excellent comments here by DrTandem1...


God, that site is bad! It's proof that Google doesn't care about quality.

That's true - What Google "knows" about your site is information gathered by the Googlebot - and Googlebot doesn't even see quality, if you mean visual design, etc. - those aren't added for bots but for human visitors.


You need to stop worrying about the search engines and start focusing on the visitors. Things like "Site Requirements" followed by a list of screen resolutions and plug-ins are a no-no. Why not just say, "Viewed best on my computer, using my plug-ins, on my monitor, at my favorite resolution, on my connection in my house?" An e-commerce site needs to be very compatible across a wide variety of connections, operating systems and monitors.

Again, a good point, although I would say one does have to be aware of the principle of diminishing returns - especially true for small businesses or one-man operations. It's important to try to use features that are as cross-browser compatible as possible. However, in my case, 95% of my visitors are MS Internet Explorer - with limited time and resources, I finally settled on a strategy of making it look good in IE and making it readable and "navigatable" in other browsers. A note at the bottom says it may appear somewhat different in browsers other than IE but I sure don't want a Netscape or Opera user arriving and discovering that they can't use the site at all.


One last thing, why should a visitor log-in or register at your site? Another obstacle to kill a sale.

Again, excellent question - with all the email-harvesting operations and other privacy-invasion strategies out there, unless you give me a very good reason for supplying you with information about me, even my email address, I'll go to one of your competitors. If I buy something from you, I would expect you to need that sort of information - because then I am choosing to identify myself to you - until then, I expect to be anonymous.

[rlrouse]

...What Google "knows" about your site is information gathered by the Googlebot - and Googlebot doesn't even see quality, if you mean visual design, etc. - those aren't added for bots but for human visitors.

This is very true. The only "quality" that Googlebot can recognize is how well optimized the pages are for search engine rankings.

"Quality" in the sense referred to above is extremely subjective, the level of which will vary widely from person to person. A page that I consider to be of high-quality may well be a piece of garbage to others, and vice versa.

A bot cannot (and should not) determine the quality of a page's content, rather the "quality" of the page in "search engine friendliness" terms (optimization).

In short, I believe we're all better served by letting the bots determine "relevance" and "search engine friendliness" and leave the opinions on "quality" to the website's human visitors.

The robots have enough of a challenge just deciding on relevancy. Do we really want them trying to decide whether our pages look good and the content is worth reading?

[jvanv8]

Just to comment on some of the things DrTandem said...
We don't have a "splash page", we use a preloader to load a flash site. We have a Flash site which requires the flash plug-in. Splash pages are usually pretty pointless IMO. 93%+ of users have it so I don't want to get into a "nobody has flash" thing. The HTML version of the site "/shop" is if you don't have the plugin. Plus, the HTML version allows us to be included on Froogle. Please let me know what browser and flash player you are using so I can try to fix the problem to better serve users with your configuration.

Also, we do use the keyword in the url for our wreaths page which ends with "wreath.html"

If content is king, then those first two sites shouldn't be at the top. Check out the stats again, there is very little if any content.

On the HTML site, you don't have to register to browse or to purchase an item. It's just for return customers don't want to re-enter their billing and shipping information every time they make a purchase.

Cheers,
John

[carol]

Ok, going back Paul's post about the #2 site's designer. If you look further at the "portfolio" (you have to click on the awful graphics) you will see that there are 3 wreath sites (and 2 Maine bait sites and some other Maine-oriented sites) and all of them are inter-linked. Maybe this contributes to their ranking. -carol

[jvanv8]

there are 3 wreath sites (and 2 Maine bait sites
That reminds me of "National Lampoons Christmas Vacation". Wasn't Eddie in "the live bait business"? I wonder what the cumulative sales on online live bait is? Maybe these guys are on to something...