Css and Validation WC3 pages for SEO

[Simon Young]

Hi everyone,

What are your thoughts on the importance of having valid html pages in the search engines? Currently I have lots of first page positions for my chosen keywords in google but very little of my site will validate in WC3 checking with many errors... this is the case also for alot of my competitors.

I have just begun the long and teedious task of eliminating all these errors and making my site compliant and valid while also converting it to a css driven site - do you think this is going to give me much benefit or am I wasting my time??

Does this importance weight more in some search engines over others? We do well in google at the moment and have a site that has been around for over 8 years but we do very badly in MSN for example...

All comments would be appreciated.

[danlefree]

WC3 ..?

MSN does associate some level of site quality (and, conversely, relevance) with lightweight + valid HTML or XHTML markup.

[innominds]

If your site is WC3 validated then it will definitely give an upper hand over your competitor sites. Leave about SERPs, it will definitely make browser friendly. So your site will be clear without any errors.

[zephyrireland]

Does is have to be 100% valid and also what level of validation do you require. Do you have to be strict?
I haven't noticed too much difference - but will perhaps validate one section of the site to see if it makes a difference.

[iandoc]

Hi everyone,

do you think this is going to give me much benefit or am I wasting my time??


In my view, it would be a colossal waste of your time. Use it more wisely by carrying out other, worthwhile website marketing activities.

[Big Juice]

It matter not

[incrediblehelp]

I would advise you look through WPW for dozens of threads already fully covering this topic:

http://www.webproworld.com/search-engine-optimization-forum/70340-w3c-validation-how-important.html

http://www.webproworld.com/accessibility-usability-forum/60033-validator-w3-org.html

[meadrose]

Every little bit helps.

Your MSN may be lagging if your Yahoo is lagging since one depends on the other.

There things to pay attention to:
Do you have:
a compliant site map?
a robots.txt file?

Are you using a strictly xhtml compliant css-based editor? (It would save a lot of trouble if you were).

Have you considered taking advantage of php-based xml such as joomla or drupal? They have a tremendous advantage over straight html since they can be syndicated.

[bj]

Though it doesn't make a DIRECT difference now, since the google webmaster guidelines suggest that your code be clean, it may make a difference in the future. Now, what did I mean by "direct difference"? Certain errors will make the spiders stumble and fall, and hurt your chances of getting good rankings. And unless you know exactly which errors cause spider problems, it would be wise to clean them all up.

Also, a validating site with an xhtml/css layout will show better in mobile phones and other devices.

[advancedmerchant]

Content is KING. If your site validates in WC3 great, if it does not, and it views well in IE, and has no problems to the robots/spiders, than all validation gets you is..... well, you get to feel validated.

Make your site for your customers, and fill it with relevant content, and you will beat a validated site with less relevant content every time (but you already know that!)

[geotex]

Ditto to what Advanced Merchant said. If your pages list well, what's the difference? We use carts that will usually fail even html4 checking, but my customers still have #1 listing for many of their important keywords, in many cases listing higher than the manufacturer of the item they are selling.

[Terry Van Horne]

Validation is a complete waste of time for SEO. Done it in the past and figured out it didn't make a lick of difference to SE's or browsers if you do or don't. It's impossible to say that validated code is a benefit on any engine including MSN. There are so many factors going into an algo that IMO, no one can says for sure that something like validated code is helpful in ranking it is impossible to isolate and determine a benefit. Therefore IMO, it is at best a guess to say validated code helps rankings. See the article below I discuss it there

[iany]

Although, I believe that validation is important for new sites, older sites that have already made their way up the Google ladder, can have all sorts of errors in their html and it doesn't seem to harm their rankings

However, it is surprising how many large company sites don't work in newer browsers - including IE7.

My thoughts for what they are worth, if current sites work across browser land, and already enjoy good rankings, why bother to change the existing code just to make compliant. On the other hand, once you decide to redesign or build new site, then make sure all is compliant.

[Simon Young]

One benefit I am getting from going down the CSS route is my page sizes are about a third of what they were and obviously this loads more quickly, I have already seen a jump in the number of orders because people are viewing more pages.

As for the spiders will this help me, I have kept all my content the same as we already have good rankings - but now that I am using the CSS and making the pages validate then as they load quicker it is all good so far. IMHO I would think that more weight will be given to this in the future so I am going ahead and if I get some serious changes for pages that are currently nowhere then I will update you guys with some evidence (or not) as the case may be!

[1dmf]

Well another forum I am a member of (HR), will tell you it's completely and utterly irrelivant having valid code for SEO purposes.

However , I could argue against this philosophy till I'm blue in the face, it seems I'm a minority.

But to me it's obvious, missing Title tag is invalid code, I think it would harm your rankings not having it in don't you! 1st prime example blows any other train of thought out the window!

But again it comes down to severity of errors as to the potential harm it could do to rankings , not to mention not displaying correctly on a range of browsers.

Also valid code isn't just about not having 'syntax' errors, missing end tags etc.. it's also about semantics, the right tool for the job, thus the right tag for the content, the whole concept of CSS and no longer using a table for layout purposes.

Now it's all agreed 'I beleive' , that H# tags help in SEO , well if you knew nothing about SEO, but looked at your content and semantically marked it up correctly wrapping content in their correct tags, including title's , well having just written valid / semantic code has just improved your ranking chances without you even knowing it!

Of course you might not be targeting the keywords you'd like correctly, but hey this example was about someone knowing nothing about SEO and just writing valid markup!

There is also the argument that some SE's do like valid mark up , makes it easier to parse along with quicker page load times can mean more pages get re-indexed more often.

Then there is the basic 'professionalism' argument, if an SEO touched my code and it wasn't valid, W3C compliant, semantic markup, they'd be fired in an instant and get an invoice for the time it took to correct their bad code.

If your a professional SEO offering professional SEO services, then the code changes you leave behind need to be valid markup inline with current industry acceptable, professional standards.

I know SEO's find that concept strange because there are no such thing as SEO standards, but I'm all for there being such a thing, and anyways, just because one sector of IT doesn't seem to have standards, doesn't mean that profession can go around messing up other areas of IT who do work to specific standards, such as Webmasters!

So up to you whether you think valid code affects ranking, but if you are going to beleive those who don't think it matters, by that statement, it means it doesn't do any harm, so what would your excuse be for not making it valid?

Can't be arsed? , Not capable?, Haven't got the time? , Not professional enough to care?

Go on, do the right thing, make it valid :-P

[dreras]

Like a few others have said...

If you have errors on your page, then there's a good chance that a bot will find the error too. If by chance the error makes the bot leave your site because it gets confused, then errors can hurt your website.

Depending on how poor the development and how many errors you have would determine the chances of bots leaving your site.

I don't think it's a make or break issue. I personally look at validation more as bragging rights, or quality craftsmanship.

Validation does take time and knowledge and some people got the skills while most don't.

[flhu]

As far as one search engine, run a validation check on Google's main page.

The last time I did this, there were over 50 errors for a page with 5 links and an input box.

So, I don't think Google would care.

[Flyinjs]

MrYang,

You can also go to: http://validator.w3...org and use their "Tidy Html" program to clean up your html. It at least gives you an idea of what is going on.


John Slater
Largest source of reliable time tested foreign Mexican Canadian Asian online pharmacies (http://www.endlessmeds.com)

[1dmf]

Don't forget they has a CSS validator tool as well as RSS & ATOM ;-)

[iany]

I think a whole bunch of later posts have missed the point, here.

The original question was whether valid html affects page rankings. mryang's existing sites are doing very nicely as they are thank you. I have old sites that had horrible html but ranked very highly in their markets. When I decided to rebuild with fresh design, naturally I used CSS and valid html. Actually didn't make a lot of difference to their ranking (above the fold page 1 is difficult to improve on!!).

There is no doubt that new sites will benefit from having the best html code and allowing the search engines to see the text more quickly. However, as the most effective search engine is human, if a site is already doing well and is something that folks want to use or buy from, then whether it is valid or not is irrelevant.

Although I am a great champion of valid html, it is only a tool and not an end in itself, and in spite of what many might say, it isn't that difficult to achieve and is nothing to do with craftmanship. Hey Dreamweaver will build a valid site if you let it so it cannot be that difficult. There is no excuse for new sites to have large number of coding errors but existing old ones that are doing well. Leave alone!

[MeanSEO]

Trying to eliminate tables for CSS is a waste of time however making the code valid and clean and while doing so checking all of your content carefully will be well worth the time.

You will be amazed how much obsolete junk you will find and places to improve a site will occur and as a result better rankings and better conversions.

There is no reason that any site does not validate except if there is others code in your pages such as Google's Adsense.

[scouseflip]

Can't be arsed? , Not capable?, Haven't got the time? , Not professional enough to care?

Go on, do the right thing, make it valid :-P

lol - still fighting the good fight 1dmf!

[venividi]

I think validation is important in SEO. Why? Because correct html can be easily detected by a spider. Since this usually means attention to detail, which is an important ingredient of quality, if I were a SE I wouldn't renounce using this easy and flexible tool now and then.

[iany]

I think validation is important in SEO. Why? Because correct html can be easily detected by a spider. Since this usually means attention to detail, which is an important ingredient of quality, if I were a SE I wouldn't renounce using this easy and flexible tool now and then.

Totally agree, but will it improve already good rankings? Proabably not. Spend the time more usefully! I have wated a lot of time changing client sites from table to CSS and valid XHTML when I may have been better to spend time builidng IBLs. Sites look great, work across all browsers and have really reduced page sizes. However, no of hits is name of game really.

[1dmf]

of course scouseflip!, gotta try and educate these cowboys now haven't we - lol ;)

some would sell their grandma if it got them to no.1 in G! and their whole family for a bunch of IBL's. kids , wife and all!

I'm sure some would even sell their country down the river if it got them good click throughs, conversion rates and ROI!