No Follow links for the Internal Pages

[subhzash]

Hi,

Here iam implementing the new method for my website promotion. My site has the page rank of 4 and we have
back links around 100. But google is showing only internal pages as back links.

So i want to use the nofollow links for the internal pages with that Google or any other search engine can show only backs which are coming from other sites.

Please tell me is this good one. But iam sure this will work out






Regards
Subhash
subhzash@gmail.com

[thindenim]

I don't understand why you want to do this... internal links are a good thing. If you nofollow all the internal links that google is counting you will potentially orphan your pages and lose your rankings.

Don't worry about what google shows in a link:domain.com search, it's just a random sample. Webmaster Central gives you a more accurate indication of your back links, or alternatively use Yahoo Site Explorer.

[alhefner]

Thindenim is right on target! Your internal links tell the search engines what else in on your site other than the index page.

I would nofollow some links if they exist such as a login link or a view cart link. Those pages don't add much if any value to the content of your site as far as search is concerned. I try to keep search engines out of almost all "admin" areas of a site mostly to keep the clutter down in what a SE indexes.

[incrediblehelp]

This post is a good example of how people may not understand why or how other so called industry experts are using the nofollow thread. Please see these threads for more information on nofollow.

http://www.webproworld.com/search-engine-optimization-forum/67474-does-page-ranking-sculpting-work.html
What Is PR Scuplting And Does It Work? - Search Marketing & SEO Blog from Cincinnati, Ohio (http://www.jaankanellis.com/what-is-pr-scuplting-and-does-it-work/)

[subhzash]

This post is a good example of how people may not understand why or how other so called industry experts are using the nofollow thread. Please see these threads for more information on nofollow.

http://www.webproworld.com/search-engine-optimization-forum/67474-does-page-ranking-sculpting-work.html
What Is PR Scuplting And Does It Work? - Search Marketing & SEO Blog from Cincinnati, Ohio (http://www.jaankanellis.com/what-is-pr-scuplting-and-does-it-work/)


U mean i am wrong??

[subhzash]

I don't understand why you want to do this... internal links are a good thing. If you nofollow all the internal links that google is counting you will potentially orphan your pages and lose your rankings.

Don't worry about what google shows in a link:domain.com search, it's just a random sample. Webmaster Central gives you a more accurate indication of your back links, or alternatively use Yahoo Site Explorer.

Thanks for your reply. Most of the search engines read the whole website links by using the sitemap. I never kept nofollow for the sitemap links.

I hope sitemap is more than enough for any search engine to index the site

[thindenim]

Your pages may get indexed from the sitemap, but they are likely to end up in the supplimental index. You should interlink your pages as much as possible, both through navigation and contextual links (in content) where possible.

[subhzash]

Your pages may get indexed from the sitemap, but they are likely to end up in the supplimental index. You should interlink your pages as much as possible, both through navigation and contextual links (in content) where possible.

I dont this what you have suggested is quality method. How can you say that through the sitemap only supplemental index is possible.

Actual method of search engine indexing takes place from the sitemap only. Once if any page indexed in search engines can not change if it indexed many times through the navigations links or contextual links.




Regards
Subhash
subhzash@gmail.com

[inertia]

I dont this what you have suggested is quality method. How can you say that through the sitemap only supplemental index is possible.

Actual method of search engine indexing takes place from the sitemap only. Once if any page indexed in search engines can not change if it indexed many times through the navigations links or contextual links.


Internal linking is one of the most important SEO factors.

Every internal link (text or navigation) to a page tells the search engine something about that page, whether it is the link text or the amount of links. You should link heavily to your best content in an effort to "push" the bots in a certain direction and effectively tell them what you consider to be the most important pages. You should also use keyword rich text links with each pages in bound links following its own keyword theme. Less important content requires less links and links to pages such as login or view cart can have no follow attributes because they are completely irrelevant to SEO practices.

What Thindenim is trying to say is that by adding the no follow attribute to your internal links and only leaving the site map with standard links you are actually cancelling out all the benefits of an internal link hierarchy. Am i right thin?

[Webnauts]

U mean i am wrong??
Incrediblehelp is absolutely right. Stay away from that bloody attribute.
There is a forum member here who was advised to implement it in his/her online shop and because he/she was relying on organic search results, ran out of business.

So be careful.

[thindenim]

you're bang on inertia, well structured internal linking is becoming more and more the key to good rankings.

[subhzash]

Incrediblehelp is absolutely right. Stay away from that bloody attribute.
There is a forum member here who was advised to implement it in his/her online shop and because he/she was relying on organic search results, ran out of business.

So be careful.

You are completely wrong. Here Iam talking about the quality link backs which search engines can recognize. Why search engines are showing internal pages in case of link backs.

Do you consider internal pages as link backs.??

If search engine really giving more important of link backs why cant you show the real link backs of your website. Whats wrong in this??

Remember search engines need guidance from each link to another one. If your are providing through the sitemap then why do you worry about the index.??


Regards
Subhash
subhzash@gmail.com

[Webnauts]

You are completely wrong. Here Iam talking about the quality link backs which search engines can recognize. Why search engines are showing internal pages in case of link backs.

Do you consider internal pages as link backs.??

If search engine really giving more important of link backs why cant you show the real link backs of your website. Whats wrong in this??

Remember search engines need guidance from each link to another one. If your are providing through the sitemap then why do you worry about the index.??


Regards
Subhash
subhzash@gmail.com

Incrediblehelp did you hear that? The SEO Guru said that we are wrong man! We better get out of here... :rolleyes:

[subhzash]

This post is a good example of how people may not understand why or how other so called industry experts are using the nofollow thread. Please see these threads for more information on nofollow.

http://www.webproworld.com/search-engine-optimization-forum/67474-does-page-ranking-sculpting-work.html
What Is PR Scuplting And Does It Work? - Search Marketing & SEO Blog from Cincinnati, Ohio (http://www.jaankanellis.com/what-is-pr-scuplting-and-does-it-work/)

You are completely wrong. Here Iam talking about the quality link backs which search engines can recognize. Why search engines are showing internal pages in case of link backs.

Do you consider internal pages as link backs.??

If search engine really giving more important of link backs why cant you show the real link backs of your website. Whats wrong in this??

Remember search engines need guidance from each link to another one. If your are providing through the sitemap then why do you worry about the indexing.??

[inertia]

To be honest subhzash, with no disrespect, your broken English is confusing me a little. Are you asking whether internal site links are considered in the same way as in bound links from other sites?

Just because an in bound link comes from a page on the same URL doesn't mean it isn't counted as a link. How do you think a bot navigates through a site?!

[subhzash]

To be honest subhzash, with no disrespect, your broken English is confusing me a little. Are you asking whether internal site links are considered in the same way as in bound links from other sites?

Just because an in bound link comes from a page on the same URL doesn't mean it isn't counted as a link. How do you think a bot navigates through a site?!

Here Iam talking about the quality link backs which search engines can recognize. Why search engines are showing internal pages in case of link backs.

Do you consider internal pages as link backs.??

If search engine really giving more important of link backs why cant you show the real link backs of your website. Whats wrong in this??

Remember search engines need guidance from each link to another one. If your are providing through the sitemap then why do you worry about the indexing.??


Regards
Subhash
subhzash@gmail.com

[inertia]

Here Iam talking about the quality link backs which search engines can recognize. Why search engines are showing internal pages in case of link backs.

Do you consider internal pages as link backs.??

If search engine really giving more important of link backs why cant you show the real link backs of your website. Whats wrong in this??

Remember search engines need guidance from each link to another one. If your are providing through the sitemap then why do you worry about the indexing.??


Regards
Subhash
subhzash@gmail.com

Has anyone else here seen Groundhog day?

[subhzash]

Has anyone else here seen Groundhog day?

what do you mean by this "Has anyone else here seen Groundhog day?" ??

[subhzash]

yeah its comedy movie

[Webnauts]

You are completely wrong. Here Iam talking about the quality link backs which search engines can recognize. Why search engines are showing internal pages in case of link backs.

Do you consider internal pages as link backs.??

If search engine really giving more important of link backs why cant you show the real link backs of your website. Whats wrong in this??

Remember search engines need guidance from each link to another one. If your are providing through the sitemap then why do you worry about the indexing.??
Incrediblehelp you better delete your article in your blog before you loose your reputation brother. :lol:

[Webnauts]

Has anyone else here seen Groundhog day?
You mean the movie we are watching now? :lol:

[inertia]

yeah its comedy movie

My point is that copying and pasting the same reply to our questions/comments is essentially going round in circles, like groundhog day! I think this shall be my last post on this thread.

[thindenim]

DJ No. 1 All right, campers, rise and shine! — and don't forget your booties 'cause it's cooooooold out there today.
DJ No. 2: It's cold out there everyday. What is this, Miami Beach?
DJ No. 1: Not hardly!

[Webnauts]

My point is that copying and pasting the same reply to our questions/comments is essentially going round in circles, like groundhog day! I think this shall be my last post on this thread.
We call that in software engineering "Infinite Loop". :lol:

[incrediblehelp]

Yes not sure how we can MAKE him understand that internal linking is important and it should not be nofollowed.

[davidweb]

I don't understand why you want to do this... internal links are a good thing. If you nofollow all the internal links that google is counting you will potentially orphan your pages and lose your rankings.

Don't worry about what google shows in a link:domain.com search, it's just a random sample. Webmaster Central gives you a more accurate indication of your back links, or alternatively use Yahoo Site Explorer.

Google deliberately hides several important parameters while doing link:domain.com search.

These days Google prefers to remain aloof, playing hide-and-seek with Matt Cutts ;)

[subhzash]

You mean the movie we are watching now? :lol:

What do u mean by this?? You should not insult anyone like this...Iam a SEO from last 4 year i have very big profile...Dont think you know everything...As all we are learning






Regards
Subhash

[Webnauts]

What do u mean by this?? You should not insult anyone like this...Iam a SEO from last 4 year i have very big profile...Dont think you know everything...As all we are learning
Regards
Subhash
First I do not understand what are YOU feeling offended about. Oh and by the way, where can I see your profile? Just curious.
Since you are 4 years in SEO with a big profile, you might would like to support my new thread: http://www.webproworld.com/google-discussion-forum/67593-first-date-googlebot-headers-compression.html :)

Regards,
John

[alhefner]

WOW! This thread is incredible.

1. Internal links on the pages of your site are VITAL to proper indexing of your site. A sitemap is nice to have but IS NOT the main "roadmap" that the search engines use. The main roadmap is your own internal links.

2. Backlinks are good also but are just one additional component to the overall picture.

3. If you are unable to grasp this concept, you are unable to perform effective optimization (not the same as marketing) and stating that you have been following ineffective practices for a number of years means that you have been ineffective, or not as effective as you could be, for that many years.

nuff sed

[incrediblehelp]

Iam a SEO from last 4 year i have very big profile..

Well that is great and all, but consider your comments in this thread I would believe much is to be learned by you on how internal navigation works for ranking purposes. Here is a good thread by Andy beard you may want to read since your so excited to nofollow pages:

Site Structure - SEOs Going Fishing Without Any Bait | Andy Beard - Niche Marketing (http://andybeard.eu/2008/03/site-structure.html)

[subhzash]

WOW! This thread is incredible.

1. Internal links on the pages of your site are VITAL to proper indexing of your site. A sitemap is nice to have but IS NOT the main "roadmap" that the search engines use. The main roadmap is your own internal links.

2. Backlinks are good also but are just one additional component to the overall picture.

3. If you are unable to grasp this concept, you are unable to perform effective optimization (not the same as marketing) and stating that you have been following ineffective practices for a number of years means that you have been ineffective, or not as effective as you could be, for that many years.

nuff sed

I agree that sitemap is not only the road way for indexing. I know the importance of internal links. But the internal links should not repeated. If internal links are repeated then i use the "nofollow" link for them specially in case of contextual links.

The purpose of contextual links is to provide the complete information to the visitor.

What do you know about my effective practices?? Remember here we are suppose to discuss about the new methods of web promotion.

I hope no one in this forum can differentiate what would be effective and ineffective??


Regards
Subhash

[Webnauts]

I agree that sitemap is not only the road way for indexing.
I agree.


But the internal links should not repeated.
If so, please explain why.


What do you know about my effective practices??
As far we have no evidence from you, and from what we are reading, we cannot believe that your practices are effective. If we are wrong, show us some examples.


Remember here we are suppose to discuss about the new methods of web promotion.
I agree.


I hope no one in this forum can differentiate what would be effective and ineffective??
Well you must hope very long, since we are many who can differentiate what can be effective and ineffective. Others more and others less.[/quote]

Peace.

[subhzash]

I agree.


If so, please explain why.


As far we have no evidence from you, and from what we are reading, we cannot believe that your practices are effective. If we are wrong, show us some examples.


I agree.


Well you must hope very long, since we are many who can differentiate what can be effective and ineffective. Others more and others less.

Peace.[/QUOTE]

Internal links are not repeated without having nofollow link because with that your making search engine spiders to fall in loop. We can repeat the internal links by using nofollow tags.

If you think search engines never fall into the loop by repeating internal links then repeat internal links one or two times without nofollow tag.

Is this not sufficient??



Regards
Subhash

[monfis]

U mean i am wrong??

Hi, yes you are really wrong. If you add nofollow to your internal links, this pages will not pass PR anymore to the other pages of your site and may cause a mayor desaster for your search engine positions.

[incrediblehelp]

Internal links are not repeated without having nofollow link because with that your making search engine spiders to fall in loop. We can repeat the internal links by using nofollow tags.

This is not true at all. Where did you hear this?

[Webnauts]

Internal links are not repeated without having nofollow link because with that your making search engine spiders to fall in loop. We can repeat the internal links by using nofollow tags.

If you think search engines never fall into the loop by repeating internal links then repeat internal links one or two times without nofollow tag.

Is this not sufficient??



Regards
Subhash


Who the hell told you that? Whats going on here people? I am really missing something? :lol:

- Did you ever hear about the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines?
- Did you ever here that if you use in your .htaccess file two similar rules, the second one will be taken?

If that was true, I would better add in my .htaccess file the following:

RewriteCond %{ENV:REDIRECT_STATUS} 200
RewriteRule .* - [L]

Any further questions? How many years are you doing SEO? I forgot that one.

[incrediblehelp]

I am adding this to my mental robots.txt:

# go away
User-agent: subhzash
Disallow: /

[Webnauts]

I am adding this to my mental robots.txt:

# go away
User-agent: subhzash
Disallow: /

:lol: :lol: :lol: He is talking about two same links on one page, pointing to one page.

Anyway, he is fully against accessibility and usability standards.
So at this point I just have to give up the discussion here. That is too advanced for me. :lol:

And by the way, even if you disallow access to a file through the robots.txt, PageRank juice still passes.

[Webnauts]

I am adding this to my mental robots.txt:

# go away
User-agent: subhzash
Disallow: /

Man, I gave you a rep point for that. Cool stuff! :lol:

[incrediblehelp]

Yeah pretty awful way to look at internal linking.

[Webnauts]

Yeah pretty awful way to look at internal linking.
Well, that might have some to do with someone who has 4 years SEO experience with a very big profile. :lol:

[crankydave]

I don't know if it's being done this way or intended, but it is an "interesting" way to preserve PR being passed internally on a smallish site. If preserving PR is the intent.

Link to only the most important pages, including a good sitemap, from the homepage. Nofollow redundant internal links except the homepage. Keep the links on the sitemap live.

ETA... If I remember correctly, I think Andy Beard has discussed something similar to this he refers to as a "spider circle". Whereas the spiders are forced only to the the sitemap from the homepage and then only to the homepage from the individual link pages.

Dave

[subhzash]

:lol: :lol: :lol: He is talking about two same links on one page, pointing to one page.

Anyway, he is fully against accessibility and usability standards.
So at this point I just have to give up the discussion here. That is too advanced for me. :lol:

And by the way, even if you disallow access to a file through the robots.txt, PageRank juice still passes.


Iam never against to accessibility and usability standards. Nofollow is nothing to do with those accessibility guidelines and usability standards

Accessibility and Usability standards are made by keeping the visitors in mind. And Nofollow link is nothing to do with visitors


Regards
Subhash

[Webnauts]

Iam never against to accessibility and usability standards. Nofollow is nothing to do with those accessibility guidelines and usability standards

Accessibility and Usability standards are made by keeping the visitors in mind. And Nofollow link is nothing to do with visitors


Regards
Subhash
You know what? You are too advanced in accessibility, usability and SEO to hang around with you.
Its clear that I do not have such of profile like you. But I do not want to become so big like you.
I prefer to keep my profile small as it is: XING - John Britsios (http://www.xing.com/profile/John_Britsios) :lol:

Oh, by the way, can I see your profile too? I am very curious. ;)

[subhzash]

You know what? You are too advanced in accessibility, usability and SEO to hang around with you.
Its clear that I do not have such of profile like you. But I do not want to become so big like you.
I prefer to keep my profile small as it is: XING - John Britsios (http://www.xing.com/profile/John_Britsios) :lol:

Oh, by the way, can I see your profile too? I am very curious. ;)

I never say Iam Big. But i worked on so many websites. Iam working as seo from 2004. I can not show my profile because i had signed NDA (Non Discloser Agreement). If your really interested then send me test mail from your mail id to subhzash@gmail.com then i can send you list of websites which i promoted in top positions of the major search engines



Regards
Subhash
subhzash@gmail.com

[kevsta]

lol. funniest thread of the week...

[Webnauts]

lol. funniest thread of the week...
I thought it was the funniest thread of the year, or did I miss something? :lol:

[kevsta]

well yea maybe havent been around much.

[Peter (IMC)]

Relax Webnauts (and some others), the guy doesn't speak the best english and has trouble expressing him self properly. He's not the only one with this problem. :rolleyes:


subhzash,

You're looking at SEO in individual factors and aren't putting them all together to have them enforce each other. A sitemap for example can help search engines find all the pages, but that doesn't mean that the other links are then no longer of use to search engines.

Search engines like to understand the hiarchy of the website. The links are used to figure out the hiarchy. If you nofollow all your links and just use the sitemap, you will make it more difficult for the search engines. You make the site look like the home page followed by the sitemap, and then all pages linked from the sitemap. That means that you will have 3 levels in your website:

Home page >> Sitemap >> All other pages

That's what it will look like to a search engine. But to a visitor there will be a menu, categories, subcategories and the deepest product/information pages. That hiarchy is important because it helps a visitor find easily what he's looking for. The same applies to search engines: If they can understand the hiarchy, they will know what's more important and hence rank those pages higher. You'll kill your positions with nofollowing everything but 1 link to each page.

[subhzash]

Thanks a lot for understanding me (Peter IMC). Actually some of the people in this forum think they are the best in search engine optimization. They are trying to make fun of someones intension. I dont like the statements some people posted that this thread is funny and funniest thread of the year.

My exact phenomena is Home page >> Navigation to all pages and nofollow link for the contextual links. There is nothing wrong in using the contextual links but if we use nofollow links for the contextual links and repeating internal links then search engine can show the exact back links

If you dont use the nofollow links for the contextual links then search engine spiders may fall into the loop. By using many internal links (which are repeated) without nofollow links we are creating cyclic path for the spiders which is not the best practice.

I hope when search engine spiders may fall into the cyclic path then spiders immediately get out from the site. In this process they are unable to recognize the real back links.


Regards
Subhzash

[subhzash]

I thought it was the funniest thread of the year, or did I miss something? :lol:

Its up to you. And your answer is most funniest ever seen in this forum

[subhzash]

lol. funniest thread of the week...

Is it?? why do you think so?? I hope your here to make fun...thanks

[Peter (IMC)]

My exact phenomena is Home page >> Navigation to all pages and nofollow link for the contextual links. There is nothing wrong in using the contextual links but if we use nofollow links for the contextual links and repeating internal links then search engine can show the exact back links

If you dont use the nofollow links for the contextual links then search engine spiders may fall into the loop. By using many internal links (which are repeated) without nofollow links we are creating cyclic path for the spiders which is not the best practice.

I hope when search engine spiders may fall into the cyclic path then spiders immediately get out from the site. In this process they are unable to recognize the real back links.

You´re confusing 2 different things. The spider trap (loop) you´re talking about happens in dynamic websites where the URL of the same page is different depending on the path you took to reach a page. It is better to change the programming of a dynamic website so that this doesn't happen. Using nofollows to prevent this problem isn't a good solution and might not even work that good.

If the URL's don't change, loops in the site because of links are no worry because the spider already knows it visited a page before.

You shouldn't care which pages a search engine shows in a backlink search. It's more important to have your pages show up when people search for your keywords, isn't it.. :)

[subhzash]

You´re confusing 2 different things. The spider trap (loop) you´re talking about happens in dynamic websites where the URL of the same page is different depending on the path you took to reach a page. It is better to change the programming of a dynamic website so that this doesn't happen. Using nofollows to prevent this problem isn't a good solution and might not even work that good.

If the URL's don't change, loops in the site because of links are no worry because the spider already knows it visited a page before.

You shouldn't care which pages a search engine shows in a backlink search. It's more important to have your pages show up when people search for your keywords, isn't it.. :)

Yeah i agree with your answer. This is right answer. But some people failed to understand my intension and made funny comments.

Thanks once again Peter

[cz]

This may be funnier than anything posted but here goes....

I read a free pdf download from a fellow and it was talking about no following your links to avoid sending PR to non-important pages on your site, that visitors should see but that didn't need all of the PR flowing to them. (at least that's my understanding was)

I have about 100 item pages that were all indexed and had PR3. My Index page was PR4, Sections PR4 and item pages PR3. Many items were landing pages too. These items had to reference the "fitting guides" to see if the item was recommended for their equipment. Every page needing this fitting info (about 100 items) have a bulleted list of features.

On the last bulleted feature entry I had some text like Be sure to check our "fitting guides" (internal link to guides) to be sure of a perfect fit.

I decided that my fitting guides didn't need all of those internal links (for spiders) and put "no follow" attribute on each link to the fitting guides. Maybe or not, this was followed about 30 - 45 days after, by a a toolbar update and my home page stayed at PR4 and the sections dropped to PR3 and items to PR1 or PR0 or dropped "no cache" when requested through the toolbar. I also lost my dozens of 1 & 2 (doubles) for the niche's SERPS, they were dropped to 3 & 4's under my competitor..arrrgh.

I took off all of the no follows and have seen in the past 2 weeks, that I've reclaimed some of them back to 1 and 2 position but only about 1/3 of the losses. Oh well, many would be happy to have double 3 & 4 search listings for their terms but not after you've had 1 & 2 for years. I think it had to do with the no follows. Now I don't have that important link to the fitting guides on the item pages anymore either - don't know what to do about that?

If Incrediblehelp reads this - it isn't the site I PM'ed you about. This is my money maker and dropping former landing pages (PR0 or Gray) and reduced PR has hurt, not badly but surely a noticeable amount.

BOO - to "no follow"! I should have kept my hands in my pockets instead of writing 100 no follow internal links!

Or, it could have been something else - but nothing changed for years (in regard to internal linking) in my site's architecture.

Just an experience I thought I'd share. :confused:

cz

[incrediblehelp]

CZ check out this thread:

Why your nofollow testing sucks (http://seo-theory.com/wordpress/2008/03/26/why-your-nofollow-testing-sucks/)

[cz]

Thanks Incrediblehelp,

Wow that's a lot of info! The last 4 things stand out.

I am re-inserting my former links to the fitting guides and wait. That will eliminate #1 "what I've changed". The competitor did make a YouTube video of measuring an item with a tailor's tape measure, which wouldn't work for my products which don't come in generic - small, medium and large.

I have a Google alert on them and they're getting a lot of links from it. Affiliates?? Not sure who's using it and linking back to them for it. That would be #2 "what they've changed."

Thanks for now! Please re-post if anyone disagrees with replacing these internal links (described in earlier post) as they are critical to conversions but they are duplicate links about 90 - 100 item pages to the fitting guides.

BTW, the 2nd name in that thread is where I downloaded the pdf ebook (edited his name out of my first post) on using "no follow" in my site and was supposed to be really "insider info".

Oh well - lesson learned - they're going back up tonight. :D

[Webnauts]

CZ check out this thread:

Why your nofollow testing sucks (http://seo-theory.com/wordpress/2008/03/26/why-your-nofollow-testing-sucks/)
I fully agree. I use 302 redirects implementing additionally X-Robots "nofollow" in my .htaccess file.
No link condoms, like rel="nofollow".

Even if Google at some point will cancel the "nofollow" thingy, I will never be affected.

[cz]

I put my links back up last night - wheww - took awhile. I pre-made 5 different wordings of the anchor text and let it fly - alternating every couple of pages.

I discovered another large section that still had them in there after I'd thought they were all out along time ago...doooh!

Now let's see if conversions increase by arming my customers with better navigation and no guesswork.

cz

[Webnauts]

I mentioned more about my above redirect technique, which you might would like to read about it here:
http://www.webproworld.com/368246-post158.html