Just HOW expert is your SEO expert? [Archive]

EdRust

10-01-2003, 01:41 PM

As a database designer and software support specialist, I felt that I should turn to an expert for some SEO service. I originally developed our site on my own but was not positioning well on any of the search engines. After paying a so called expert about $2500 to re-design our site, I was not happy with the results. The expert who worked on our site has now quit her job (where she was working when she worked on our site) and works for one of our major competitors! So I began the task of attempting to learn SEO on my own. And I am beating her on some engines (mainly MSN). But not yet beating them on some others. Oh and before you guess that it was her work not mine that improved our rankings, I waited over 3 months for some results. I guess my main point here is do plenty of research into an experts previous results, especially if you are in a competative market, before you sign-up for an "experts" service.

Black Knight

10-01-2003, 07:04 PM

As with all too many online businesses (especially services) there are a lot of rather amatuer 'professionals'. Always ask for references and always check them.

Look to have telephone contact details for any 'references' that are not well-known companies. There have been SEO companies who pretended that their own 'pet project' sites and affiliate sites were customers.

An ideal set of references will include at least one client they began working for within the last six months and at least one that they finished working with a year or so ago. That way you get to check that their results are stable, and are capable of repetition.

Price should never be a concern. A good SEO is like a good accountant - their services may cost a bit, but you make much more back from their services than they cost you.

janeth

10-01-2003, 07:50 PM

Hi Black Knight,
I do agree you need to check out the company that you are going to be working with. But there are also some small companies that are just getting started and can do just as good of a job as the big ones.
My site is only 7 months old. I read and learn something new everyday. I'm in Colombia S.A and because it would be almost impossible to design websites locally I knew my business had to come from on line. I started reading and learning about search engines the same day we started our business. We got ranked in the top 20 of the search engines almost the first month. I worked 20 hours a day then and still do know. I never planed to do SEO work but it seemed I was helping a lot of people on there sites for free. The only way to stop this was to start giving prices for it because it is hard to get business for your own site when your trying to help everyone else with there's.
We now offer SEO work. If I can not get a site in the top 20 I will give you a 100% refund. Also because I have been doing this for only about one month in order to get customers we have to do it a lot cheaper then I would like. Until we get several customers to the top of the search engines. Then we will charge what everyone else charges.
I would never risk my reputation or business by not taking care of the customer.
So in reality it is also a good deal for the business owner that I work with because I'm a new business and do not have the customer I can show him from 6 months or a year ago.
I think it is important to find out how much and how hard a business is willing to work for you.

Mel

10-02-2003, 01:05 AM

janeth

10-02-2003, 01:24 AM

EdRust

10-02-2003, 10:13 AM

Black Knight, Janeth, and Mel
Thanks for your replies! I know I have a lot more to learn about optimizing my site for the engines esp. google, but I think for now I am just going to keep plugging away at it on my own. However if any of you feel like offering your opinion, I would welcome any suggestions! the site is www.BuyAccountingSoftware.com

thanks again, Ed

Mel

10-03-2003, 12:50 AM

I agree Mel,
You can tell a lot about a web design or SEO by there web site or the words there ranked for. You also have to keep in mind that if someone worked with a site a year ago and stopped that site is most likely not going to still be ranked in the top of the search engines.

Whether a sites needs to be continually tweaked to continue ranking depends on how the site was optimized in the first place and to some degree the business they are in.

I have clients who consistently rank #1 in Google but their sites have not been changed in the past year.

janeth

10-03-2003, 05:12 AM

Hi Mel,
I agree that sometimes that may happen but it is unlikely for a very popular key word.

simonm

10-03-2003, 08:40 AM

I manage web presence for a number of companies and long ago reached the point of 'if you want it done right, do it yourself'. I admit that for graphics I outsource, also databases etc. But for web design and SEO I now do it myself and since bringing this in house we have gone from 10s of site visitors per month to 10's of thousands - 85% through search engines!

I have discovered that the vast majority of companies with web sites:
Don't monitor web site statistics.
Have no idea where they stand on search engines.
Have 'vanity' web sites to satisfy the boss
Are routinely taken for a ride by web designers
Equally, web designers cater for this vanity kick by making over complex - 'wonderful' websites.
Have no understanding of search engines
Design sites with the next job in mind - ie they want something that will sell their design skills not something that will sell product for the customer!

Sorry to be so cynical and certainly this criticism would be unfairly aimed at contributors to this forum (otherwise they wouldn't be on it!).

Another criticism - comapanies that pester for results from the web but won't supply up to date content! My experience: fresh informative content = increased likelihood of web site visitor making contact and doing business!
(Its good to end on a positive note)

janeth

10-03-2003, 09:00 AM

Hi simonm,
Love your site.
I agree 100% with what your saying.
It is more important to sell the product not the site. I see 1,000's of sites that will never sell one thing for the customers. I would say the problem lies in both the customer and the designer. The customer should do the necessary research to find out what will work on line and the designer should help the customer in finding the right approach.
A lot of web designers want everyone to see what they can do can could care less if it will work for the customers. You have a splash page then a couple of really neat looking little tricks and ten pages later your at the product.
I can understand the customer not having the time to do the design work or seo for a site but they should still know how to read the stats, know what it takes to get ranked good and know what is in a good design.
If I'm running a business I may not have time to do it all myself but if I'm going to put it online I should understand how it all works.

10e20web

10-03-2003, 11:39 AM

You all make some very good points.

The most important thing for a small to mid-sized business is that they get exposure on the web and that there website allow people to easily order from them (whether they are selling products or services). I would say that the vast majority of website design companies just do not have the first clue about how to make this happen - which leads to a lot of unsatisified clients.

When we first deal with clients - we make sure that we understand their goals (many times helping them to define them) and then lay out a comprehensive plan to accomplish them.

The most important thing for website design or SEO companies it to make the client feel comfortable and confident that they will get the results they deserve!

kodedjay

10-03-2003, 11:52 AM

As with any online business it is a good idea to check out carefully ANY SEO firm you intend to do business with.

My favorite check is to view their rankings for the keywords in their homepage title.

If they can't get rankings for themselves after being in business for sometime, they are suspect IMO.

A fair assessment Mel, but not totally correct. We, the same as Janeth give our customers back 100% of thier money if we fail with our gurantee. However as for our own website, we only really appear for localised key phrases, as apposed to our customers who we generate top 10-20 positions for, no matter whether its a competitive National or Globally targetted key phrase - the simple fact of the matter is, we dont get time to optimise our own site due the fact that we are always optimising someone else's :) - If a potential client asks us for references or indeed results, this is not a problem as we can supply this information --- one of our optimised websites fluctuates between position 4 and 7 in Google for a *single word* with over (currently) 200,000,000 websites. (please note: the competition for the single word fluctuates between 90 and 200 million competing websites) - so as you can see, checking the results of an SEO is not always the best way to find out whether they are any good or not -

Note to potential SEO users:
-----------------------------
I recommend that the only safe to choose an SEO is to make sure it's written into the job contract that you receive the money back if an SEO fails to meet their targets guaranteed in the original proposal or, you ask for references and results from recent work (if you ask for results make sure the SEO supplies you with a list of key phrases that are competive)

excell

10-03-2003, 11:54 AM

Price should never be a concern. A good SEO is like a good accountant - their services may cost a bit, but you make much more back from their services than they cost you.
AMEN Black Knight! well said there.

DMeeks

10-03-2003, 12:12 PM

I suggested to my daughter that she go into the business of promoting web sites. She became an EMT instead! <smile>

I think it's great that some of you return money if you don't get the client listed in the top 20, but I think that will bite you some day. Being "ranked" is a moving target and being listed high today does not mean you will be tomorrow. I hope your agreement defines a time period.

I've thought about trying my hand at that business, but I'm just not sure you charge what the service is worth. To do it right, you'd have to stay on top of it every month. Each site could require 10-12 hours a month which you would need to bill at least $30 an hour. Will any small business see the value and be willing to pay $300-$400 a month? Then, to make a living you'd need to have at least 20-30 customers and work 70 hours a week. And, if they slip in the rating, you'd give a refund. <smile>

I don't mean to belittle the idea. I think it's great. It just seems like you'd have to find a few clients who really appreciated the value.

Any comments?

Thanks...Dan

kodedjay

10-03-2003, 12:16 PM

I think it's great that some of you return money if you don't get the client listed in the top 20, but I think that will bite you some day. Being "ranked" is a moving target and being listed high today does not mean you will be tomorrow. I hope your agreement defines a time period.

Of course, this would only apply during the course of the campaign - to keep results listed in the top 20 is an ongoing job :)

kodedjay

10-03-2003, 12:19 PM

I've thought about trying my hand at that business, but I'm just not sure you charge what the service is worth. To do it right, you'd have to stay on top of it every month. Each site could require 10-12 hours a month which you would need to bill at least $30 an hour. Will any small business see the value and be willing to pay $300-$400 a month? Then, to make a living you'd need to have at least 20-30 customers and work 70 hours a week. And, if they slip in the rating, you'd give a refund. <smile>

That's why you need a mix of smaller clients (to keep you ticking over) and larger clients (to help with the profit) -- its an ongoing task to keep everyone happy, but with the right systems, process and of course... staff it can be done :)

excell

10-03-2003, 12:24 PM

Dan, I have being what I do for 4 years now and have consistently landed businesses in the top 10 rankings for their relevant search terms, often in rather competitive markets.

I see little need to charge maintenance fees because if the site is well optimised in the first place their is little else to do and their presence snowballs and grows and becomes stronger as time goes on.

I'm not talking about techniques that are tricky at best and would need continual tweaking to stay ahead of the algos.. I am talking about on-site optimisation intended for long term positioning.. maybe there is a difference in what is offered and what is meant by "seo"? :)

Bizwala

10-03-2003, 12:37 PM

I just read over a lot of excellent points...

We have a small number of clients who have had similar experiences, after which they sought out our services. It's no fun picking up afterwards. :\

I prefer to speak one on one with our clients on their marketing goals prior to web design (should the client be a full service client). As the SEO/Online Marketing VP I want to make sure that the client understands, that design is second most to marketing goals. I never take on clients who have no intent on making changes to a current website or website idea based on marketing advice. If they are unwilling to make some changes, then their goals are unrealistic and I can't fulfill them.

With this type of expert advice and consulting up front, the client is also given several current client contacts to speak with regarding our services. It's very important for me to have my clients speak out for our services. Afterall, they know our services best.

What this results in, are clients that are dependent on our services. As one of our clients state "... If you die or disappear, I would have to close up business..."

Our up front honesty really helps with the battle for dollars in the industry. What you experienced, isn't new in our industry, thousands of nameless web designers are out there offering SEO and promise of delivery by an Expert. My advice, if you don't do your homework, you get what you deserve.

Lani Castro
VP of Marketing
Bizwala Web & Graphic Design
Las Vegas, Nevada

Orion

10-03-2003, 01:31 PM

Ask for references...

When you do get the domain name and the keywords it was optimized for and verity the search engine(s) it's optimized and positioned in.

We offer a list of up to 100 clients we can prove we've ranked in the top 10 and anyone is welcome to call them and speak with them.

Any SEO firm that can't give you at least 5 clients they've helped rank and position well in the last year you probably shouldn't use.

Careful going back beyond that as positioning is an ongoing thing and many clients may only want the one time service (meaning they may have slipped to page two if they didn't opt to continue).

All the best,

Bizwala

10-03-2003, 02:18 PM

positioning is important, but if what you are positioning for isn't creating results, then why bother with that reference?

I would prefer to give references on conversion + positioning that = results...

If all an SEO cares about is getting your site to the Top 10 then you should bypass that company and move on to a result oriented expert.

In today's market, if someone says they can create results, they best be ready to prove conversion results and not just show you where you are ranking on keywords that are not effective to your marketing goals.

SEO Experts should know the difference between random positioning and converted positioning. If all you want are numbers, anyone can do that. If you want to increase your sales, that's a different chapter and whole new SEO experience.

excell

10-03-2003, 03:11 PM

It's quite beyond "SEO" and much more into marketing and monitoring your ROI. As in any field. Quite logical really.. there is no mumbo jumbo.

thusmann

10-03-2003, 04:02 PM

Though I have not implemented this yet, I recently came across a great model for SEO's. Instead of charging hourly, or per service, or even monthly, the SEO charges per unique visitor to your site.

To protect the SEO's investment of time, they would use a domain name that they own, and to protect the consumer, they would use a reporting software that can be viewed and monitored 24/7. A monthly budget is set by the consumer, however the customer has to agree to pay for any overages as well.

This is the best way to choose pricing because all keywords are not created equally. For instance, the term web design or website design has bids ranging in the $1.50-$5 per click range. It would take a very diligent campaign lasting as long as a year to get top 10 placement for these keywords, however both the customer and the SEO are rewarded once the site is placed. This also protects the SEo's time by taking into account all of the word of mouth that is generated as a result of the search positioning and protects the consumers investment by charging only for results!

If any of you are interested in this type of arrangement, let me know. I am looking to take on up to 5 websites as full time SEO projects.

I will require a $50 refundable deposit, and a reasonable monthly budget for the paid clicks.

Contact me directly at support @ ibuilt . net if you have any questions.

DanThies

10-03-2003, 09:33 PM

I have a couple of resources to suggest for anyone thinking of hiring an SEO/SEM consultant:

1. SeoPros.org, which has a tool to help you create a "request for proposals."
2. SEOConsultants.com, which is a directory of SEO consultants that doesn't list "just anybody."

rlrouse

10-03-2003, 10:14 PM

What I'm about to say isn't aimed at EdRust or anyone else in particular, but at anyone that may be considering hiring an SEO...

All of the advice given so far is right on the money. References are a must. I also strongly advocate learning the basics of SEO yourself before hiring one. It isn't that difficult at all. Just spend a few hours reading the SEO related threads in this forum and you'll know the basics. You don't have to become an expert by any means, but you do need to know enough to be able to make an informed decision (and know when you're being fed a line of BS).

At a minimum you need to:

1 - Know which techniques will incur the wrath of the search engines (especially Google) and cause your site to be penalized or banned. It does little good to be in the top 10 for 3 weeks only to be relegated to the cellar after the SEs get wise to how you got that great ranking. An ethical and competent SEO will never use a technique that leaves your site and your income at risk. Knowing what these shady techniques are will allow you to avoid them. Next...

2 - Know which techniques provide the most "bang for the buck". By this I mean know which techniques will provide the best results in the shortest amount of time yet set your site up for long-term success as well. The latest SEO "fads" may get you to the top quickly, but what will happen next month or next year if the search engine changes the algorithm?

3 - After you verify the references and narrow the candidates to 2 or three, ask for a proposal in writing outlining the techniques that they do intend to use. They don't have to go into detail, just a broad outline is fine. If you see something on the list that you don't understand or you're unsure about, ask for clarification. If you still aren't satisfied, come here or to one of the other great SEO forums and ask the "local" experts. You're sure to get some great advice.

4 - Pick one technique that you know to be frowned upon by the search engines, such as hidden links (or take your pick). Tell each of the candidates that you heard somewhere that this technique will really help your SE rankings and you really want them to use it. An ethical and competent SEO will not only try to talk you out of using that technique, but he/she will simply refuse to do it, even if it means losing your business. If he/she agrees to do it, run, not walk, away from that SEO.

These suggestions will go a long way towards helping you make an informed decision when selecting a good SEO.

excell

10-04-2003, 12:58 AM

excellent post there rlrouse :)

One more point I would like to make on hiring is to be sure that you can establish a good rapport with them as it could be a long term relationship.

Black Knight

10-04-2003, 01:10 AM

4 - Pick one technique that you know to be frowned upon by the search engines, such as hidden links (or take your pick). Tell each of the candidates that you heard somewhere that this technique will really help your SE rankings and you really want them to use it. An ethical and competent SEO will not only try to talk you out of using that technique, but he/she will simply refuse to do it, even if it means losing your business. If he/she agrees to do it, run, not walk, away from that SEO.

I was right with you up until that last bit, point 4. Professional ethics are a tricky thing, and an 'ethical' SEO will certainly warn you of risks, and attempt to suggest better ways of doing things. However, a professional ethical SEO serves his customers/clients, not the search engines. Many SEOs will not refuse an honest request to perform honest labour simply because some people have made public their thoughts that a technique cannot be used properly.

Hidden links can be legitimate - see "Skip Navigation" links in properly compliant, usability oriented, web design. Zeldman and many other top expert web designers not only use hidden links in specific cases, but actively advocate their usage too.

This is the problem with attempting to catch people out who (hopefully) will know more about a subject than you do - your 'trick questions' etc may well be flawed, and have a perfect legitimacy. Their job is to know best. Trying to catch them out means you'll invariably end up hiring a pro who knows no more than you do.

Check references, consider carefully, and shop around. No tricks needed.

excell

10-04-2003, 01:23 AM

I think the point can be turned around - to check if they have the knowledge to advise you correctly of any risks of a questionable technique you may suggest, point out the pros & cons and offer better alternative solutions to achieve the same level of success.

bpjcenterprises

10-04-2003, 03:55 AM

To help your URL rank higher in the Search Engines use your Title, Description and Keywords more on your page by editing your Hyperlink Properties and adding them in the Screen Tip Text. Add the same text to your Images. This isn't going to make your page any longer with visible text and it does work. It takes practice and a lot of practice plus time but it will get better each day. Why pay all of these "geek" SEO clowns to do a simple thing like this when you can do it yourself!

excell

10-04-2003, 04:25 AM

Sure anyone can learn how to do it themselves, the fact is that not everyone has the time, not everyone is building their own website and their may be marketing or competitive issues that also need to be addressed :) Bringing in a professional is often the best and most time/cost effective solution.[/url][/code]

ry@DundasValley

10-05-2003, 08:23 AM

Good stuff on all the enlightment. I thought I knew a lot already; this really proved them wrong - old dogs can learn new tricks.

Cheers
ry
P/S Oh BTW, our page is ranked top on the following keywords "Software Development Australia"; all thanks to a good friend of mine. :-)

alsoran

10-05-2003, 10:06 AM

SEO isn't the only thing to promote your website. After all SEO is nothing but optimizing for certain keywords. And pray tell me, how many keywords you should optimize for. Even if you do, you'll constantly have to "watch over your shoulders".

That being said, I shall mention more resources to look for in addition to Dan Thies' suggestions, like SemList.Com, SearchGuild.Com, etc.

paulduffield

10-06-2003, 04:57 AM

ry
P/S Oh BTW, our page is ranked top on the following keywords "Software Development Australia"; all thanks to a good friend of mine. :-)

Ah but exactly what is worth a "top twenty" billing ? Earlier there was a post saying if I dont get my clients into the "top twenty" they get a full refund. Now we have a top twenty claim for "Software Development Australia"

Now no disrespect to the two persons posting as I am sure their intent and such like is admirable, but if we overlook things like this what chance do our clients stand on SEO ?

According to word tracker (a great tool - btw - I am a customer of theirs not with the company )which analyses millions of actual web searches and predicts future counts too.

When I enter on a simple search "Software Development Australia"

The following gets returned:

software development company Wollongong Australia count 2 predict 2

there have in fact only been two searches for anything like that key phrase in the last couple of months and nothing else even similar.

What good is that to anyone ! ?

Now if it was number one listing on "inkjet printers" or something that would be interesting of course.

To go back to the top twenty guarantee I would be surprised if Software Development Australia got anything but top billing and therefore it would be easy to gurantee a top twenty. So how many phrases and of what "quality" does one "guarantee" before a refund, for how long.

There are phrases and phrases if you know what I mean and the more competitive the market the more you have to do your research before hand based on your clients target market.

Sorry to be a bit of a devils advocate here but I think the point needs to be made. Once again apologies for singling out the two examples as I have done but I hope we can all learn from it.

Cheers for now,

janeth

10-06-2003, 09:15 AM

Hi paulduffield,
I agree with you 100% if it is not for a popular key word it does no good at all. I also see you do Web Marketing and Promotion I was wondering for which key words are you ranked on Google and at which number.
Thanks

scootertopia

10-06-2003, 12:25 PM

Hello All, Thanks for the sound advice. I have been reading everything that I can on SEO and trying to implement the same. I have also been looking for an affordable professional provider and am finding that the arena is swamped. Your advice is very helpful in finding a qualified and ethical company. One note: I have been trying to go to
http://www.ibuilt.net/
and get no response, you may want to check with your hsting company.
Thanks again,
Mike
www.scootertopia.com

red

10-07-2003, 01:31 PM

scootertopia

10-07-2003, 02:08 PM

Why pay all of these "geek" SEO clowns to do a simple thing like this when you can do it yourself!
No need for all of that. I learn something new here everyday, and am appreciative for all of the advice. Hats off to all of you who share your time and insight.
Thank you,
Mike
www.scootertopia.com

seofan

07-14-2004, 02:22 AM

I'm a happy geek clown since I make a living making my clients happy doing something they do not have the time or the expertise to do.

Just like I pay my doctor to do something I wouldn't have the guts (no pun intended) or the expertise to do.

If people can manage their online marketing successfully and satisfactorily, then that is great. If not, SEO experts are just an email away.

Like any other profession, there are good and bad (good/bad doctors; good/bad auto mechanics, etc.)There are good/bad SEO professionals.

As I mentioned, yes, you can do SEO yourself, but some people (companies) are better off letting professional SEO's handle their website marketing objectives.

fathom

07-14-2004, 05:02 AM

"After all SEO is nothing but optimizing for certain keywords."

"Why pay all of these "geek" SEO clowns to do a simple thing like this when you can do it yourself!"

>> I have found that there are a lot of folks that post to this forum that think that they are EXPERTS on everything because they build sites or have an ecommerce site of their own. It means you have EXPERIENCE, not EXPERTISE.
To make a very general comments like the one above is not only inaccurate, it is dangerous and shows a lot of naivete.
You may be be a gifted site designer or write code like no one else; it certainly doesn't mean that you are an expert on SEO.
There is a whole lot more to it than just optimizing for certain keywords.
Since the newbie that made the "geek" comment knows all, I guess I don't need to expound any further...
>Hey did you ever read "How to make Friends and Influence People"?

Dropping the word "expert" replace with "professional".

SEO is a profession... same as any other business area or industry segment.

Can you "do-it-yourself" - sure.

Can you develop as good or better results than professionals - sure... if you are dedicated to the task.

But you now must divide your attention between two completely different businesses, and if you are a one-man-show which business will get more dedication?

The greatest problem in SEO - it is easy to start learning, all you need to do is read.

Unfortuately, the enviroment changes monthly, weekly and even daily... and if you take time away from SEO to do your real business you often miss important developments - and you are now developing inappropriately.

No matter what - "you cannot take time off from SEO" someone need to be on top of the daily.

ferret77

07-14-2004, 08:38 AM

SEO is so simple you could train a monkey to do it.

If you are computer literate you can do it, of course you could also build your own house, fix your own car etc

but even you tell someone exactly how to do it they won't

becasue for competitive phrases its just takes too much dedication

I don't think SEO is about skill, its more about work ethic

Some people are dedicated and will do whatever takes to get rankings and some people will make excuses and come up with justfication on why they failed.

Its that simple