Search Analysts Predict Coming Google Shift

[Garrett]

Jim Hedger and Ross Dunn of Stepforth (http://www.stepforth.com) released their predictions today that Google rankings will undergo another change in the coming week.

"We are predicting another massive change to listings over the next week, based on our analysis of how Google is looking at incoming links and its recent behaviour patterns."

As proof they offered that, "Google has, in the past 24-hours, radically upped the link-count on most of our clients' sites."

Yesterday Google only recognized 105 of the more than 1000 actual links to Stepforth's site. Today Google shows 220.

This enormous change in the number of Google-recognized links to the Stepforth site indicates a change in what the Google algorithm perceives as a valid link.

The rise in links also indicates that Stepforth's site, along with all the other sites in Google's index, may soon rank differently.

Have you noticed a change in the number of links to your site? What do you think this indicates?

[seafoam]

This enormous change in the number of Google-recognized links to the Stepforth site indicates a change in what the Google algorithm perceives as a valid link.

I haven't noticed anything, but I haven't been watching too closely either.

One thing I would say though, is that it seems to be listing some very odd sites for one of my sites. One is an off-topic bulletin board where I made several posts and included my url. What is really odd is that it only has PR2/10. The other page is a huge list of members who joined SetiAtHome the same day as I did.

Now, if Google thinks those links are important or relevant, they have got problems!

Derek
Seafoam Woodturning Studio

[cbp]

Yesterday Google only recognized 105 of the more than 1000 actual links to Stepforth's site. Today Google shows 220.

This enormous change in the number of Google-recognized links to the Stepforth site indicates a change in what the Google algorithm perceives as a valid link.


There is some very flawed logic in this. Google have never shown all links to a site, but if it knows about a link and can crawl it, Google counts it towards PR. These people are claiming that Google are now recognising more links to their site as they now are showing them as a backlink. Google would have been recognising them without showing them.

For eg ... find a site that has PR and no Google backlinks showing - there are plenty of them. Check the backlinks at alltheweb - the number usually match the PR (roughly) --> Google must be counting the backlinks towards PR, but not showing them as a backlink.

CBP

[cbp]

I may have to retract that last message - something big appears to be happening on Google - not sure of its another update.

CBP

[cbp]

Google appears to be dancing.

CBP

[Garrett]

if this IS a full blown update, what should we name it?

Brittany suggested the Valentine's update :)

[minstrel]

The Valentine's Day Massacre?

Actually, I think it has to be a city or state -- how about "Kentucky"? or "Kentucky-of-all-places"?

Either way, "this calls for immediate discussion". We may not have much time - Google waits for no (wo-)man.

[Unclefussy]

The Valentine's Day Massacre is good for me.
I had better then 15 links now it shows 3.
???????????????????????????

[webhoster]

hate to burst your bubble but update or no update, a change in backlinks means nothing. is not an indicater of anything. google is notoriously and historically known to pick up and drop links on a web site from month to month. this is nothing new, depends on crawling activity and other factors including changes google makes.

[minstrel]

a change in backlinks means nothing. is not an indicater of anything. google is notoriously and historically known to pick up and drop links on a web site from month to month.
it's not really that Google is dropping and picking up links - it's more in what Google chooses to report when you query backlinks, with the link:www.website.com being the weakest...

you will see more of your backlinks using allinurl:www.website.com or +"www.website.com"...

[karkfump]

You are quite right minstrel about the other queries, such as +"www.domainname.com" being more relevant. Google only shows 4 backlinks to my site using the link:www.alaskahunts.net approach and 1 link is from ODP, 1 from Google's own directory and 2 from an outdoors directory. I used the same query in Alta Vista and came up with four pages of results including most of the actual business sites where my company is listed. The allinurl:www.alaskahunts.net query only produces 2 results on Google fro my company and these are 2 pages from my own site. As far as an another "update" goes, if it has happened it hasn't effected me at all. I still don't appear in the results for "alaska hunts" where I reigned in the top 5 for the past year or more.

[ojo4max]

FYI, I have 2 domains with same content. As an experiment, I haven't touched one in the last year and optimized the other with various Google recommendations. Well, the one I did not touch stayed at number one with the "discount marine supplies" keywords while the other one moved up an down from #4 to nowhere in sight. I thought that was interesting...

[webhoster]

nonetheless minstrel, a change in backlinks is hardly a justification for predicting a major shift in google aglo's. it will only lead to a thread with not very useful information for all and historically it's very hard for anybody to predict what google is doing. even those self-proclamining themselves experts in the field. especially since google has now they have taken most of their datacenters off line so nobody can see what is going on behind the scenes.

so, i just question the applicability of the term "search analyst" if predictions are being made on information such as a change in backlink activity, or is the post just to generate forum activity?

you'll have to parden me, but i am new to this forum but not google watching, and the truth is there are no good predictors of google that i have seen on any google forum or read. google is very good at keeping it's doing secret from most. and those that are entrusted with this information seem to be very good at not leaking it for the most part.

it is much better to generate discourse when google has in fact made a change in ranking that is evident and lasting and people than can share information on what they think the change might have been.

[janeth]

This is from Googleguy

I'm not sure if you'd call it an update exactly (different algorithms play more of a role than different data). But I'm guessing the change will probably roll out over the course of the weekend.


There also calling it Brandy and you can see whats going on here http://64.233.161.99 and
http://64.233.161.104

[cbp]

Its definitly an update ... but we need to revisit terminology. The updates that Google used to do were the addition of new data and addition of spam and other filters. The most recent so-called 'updates' (Florida, Austin, Brandy) have really been changes to the ranking algorithm - which is what GG is alluding to in the quote Janeth posted.

I still think the logic in the first post is flawed. Google update the publically available/change PR and backlinks on a different schedule (looks monthly lately) - the original message said that soon after Google does this, there is a major update -- I just think this is a BIG coincidence (and they will claim credit for prediciting this update).

CBP

[janeth]

Hi webhoster,

Welcome to the forum the above information I just posted was from Google.

[rambodog]

I have not seen link changes on about 50 sites I maintain. Would be nice to see all legitimate links recognized however.

Also, based on results pages on very competitive terms, if there is not a commerical site penalizer there is certainly a truely odd algorithm for site rankings.

[janeth]

Hi CBP,

Here is what Googleguy also had to say not sure if it helps what your saying or not I could be lost but I think this is what your saying.


Googleguy
"I believe that for the time being the visible PR and backlinks changes happen at a slightly different frequency."

[StepForth_Jim]

Hi. We're not sure about the use of the word UPDATE but we are pretty sure about changes in the SERPs coming next week.

It's not about how many backlinks (incoming links) Google shows when you type "link:www.YOURURL.com", it's about how Google treats or recognizes these links. At any rate, whenever there is a jump in the number of links Google perceives, you can bet there will be changes to the SERPs following quickly thereafter. At least with the "new" Google.

[marysprayers]

If Google does it to us all again, I know what I would call it, but for public record I call it junk.

I joined today not being an official web professional, but becoming hooked on messing with it all through having a commercial website. I have done a great deal of "optimizing" on my site with help from a professional, and a bit of my own work, and have seen it come up from #585 to presently (like this minute and not the next) #16 on a highly competitive keyword. Now I have dropping to 585 to look forward to again I guess.

The problem with it all is that there IS no apparent reason to the whole thing. One can pack content onto their site. Nothing. One can build links galore. Nothing. One can jump through all the hoops one is told to jump through and STILL nothing. Then one does nothing, like the gentleman above with two domain names, and Voila! Number one in the ranks.

I have scoured many a "view source" page in order to try to help myself learn, and I see no string of reasonably linked thoughts or page structures to understand why one site is #1 and the other is #585.

I've enjoyed reading these forums, and have learned a fair amount through them, but I have a feeling this is akin to the Emperor's New Clothes. I don't think anybody really has any idea of what goes on in Google. The one guy who apparently does, is not allowed out of the Google room, food and water being passed through a hole in the bottom of the door.

What am I missing?

[cbp]

Jim:

we are pretty sure about changes in the SERPs coming next week.

Why next week? What would you call it thats happening right now.

Mary:

If Google does it to us all again, I know what I would call it, but for public record I call it junk

I just had a quick look at a number of other forums about this update - the consensus is thats it pretty good for most posters - there are a few disgruntled ones, but nothing close to the anger caused by the last two updates.

CBP

[HomeStar]

It’s a role of the dice to really know what’s going to happen after the update. You can only optimize your site so much.

Then it’s in googles hands. :)

[cbp]

Homestar

This is off the theme of the thread, so mods may move it - you raised interesting point:

Then it’s in googles hands

In the past it was reasonably easy to get a good Google ranking (it was more in our hands) - just pick a reasonably non-competitive keyword(s), do the on page optimization (eg keyword in title, H1, keyword density etc), get some links, especially with the keywords as anchor text, get a couple of directory links .... doing this it was easy to get to the first page of results, regardless of is you deserved it or not

Now with all the different theories surrounding the ranking changes at Google (see this thread: http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10802), things are now more in Google's hands, which in all honestly should be the case. We can no longer manipulate results like we used do ... damn you Google, all the fun has gone :-)

CBP

[luvdavy]

If Google does it to us all again, I know what I would call it, but for public record I call it junk.



The problem with it all is that there IS no apparent reason to the whole thing. One can pack content onto their site. Nothing. One can build links galore. Nothing. One can jump through all the hoops one is told to jump through and STILL nothing. Then one does nothing, like the gentleman above with two domain names, and Voila! Number one in the ranks.

I have scoured many a "view source" page in order to try to help myself learn, and I see no string of reasonably linked thoughts or page structures to understand why one site is #1 and the other is #585.


What am I missing?

Hi Marysprayers,
From what I've seen in the last six weeks, if you have packed content, and you have gotten links galore,(we're talking about several hundred, and on well ranked links pages in theme) then you probably just need to tweak the key phrases. I have been able to jump back and forth from #2 to #5 just by the way the words are on the homepage. Seems like you can increase the count on one and it will knock the other back a step or two. I'm not talking about the site I have in my sig below...it's a much bigger one than that...but messing with the words does seem to make a big difference. And using parts of the phrase always separately makes an even bigger one.
If your phrase is Ohio brick layers, then use Ohio by itself alot, and brick(s) by itself, etc. If you use the exact phrase more than once or twice, the filter seems to kick in.

At least it works in the real estate and vacation categories that way. Or should I just say it works for ME....LOL

Jan

[luvdavy]

And PS...our links DROPPED dramatically...from over 200 to 105. We've been dancing up and down for about 36 hours now...but not dropping off. Just going from 2 to 5 to 8 back to 2. Page rank hasn't changed, though.

Jan

[luvdavy]

And PS...our links DROPPED dramatically...from over 200 to 105. We've been dancing up and down for about 36 hours now...but not dropping off. Just going from 2 to 5 to 8 back to 2. Page rank hasn't changed, though.

Jan

PPS!! Is this ever a hoot. Our links just came back, and however temporarily, we just went to number one on all 6 or 7 of the most highly prized phrases for Myrtle Beach. Boy, I'm going to sit and
just stare at this to try and remember my fleeting moment of fame and glory...hahahah...

Jan

[cbp]

The reason for the bouncing all over the place is that when you search www.google.com, you could end up at anyone of the data centers. It takes time to propagate the changes.

The new index is at this data center:
http://64.233.161.99

CBP

PS Mods - this thread getting off-topic

[Don Lee]

Dear Janeth,

Youe earlier post of 2 urls for Google, what so they represent?

[dviney]

Agree with luvdavy that rankings are just moving up and down like crazy. In terms of net changes, I seem to be up on some word search combinations (e.g. intranet governance) and down on others (e.g. intranet business case).

Overall, too early to tell (although content does appear to be the loser from what I can see... which can't be good surely)

[red]

First...thanks Janeth for the very useful links. I needed to be better informed than I was.

define:Imminent>> Hanging threateningly over one's head

I suffered a HUGE hit when "Austin" hit a few weeks back.
Though there are a couple of hundred extremely relative links coming into one of my sites only 6 continued to show up on Google. Last week that number increased to 12 and today (thus far) we're at 35. Even though I have nearly 20 more recognized (by Google) links than any of my closest competitors my keyword phrases that ranked in the top 5 for months can no longer be found.
I can't explain it and wish I knew what I was doing wrong so I could fix it before next week!
Anyhow, that's my story!

Happy Valentines Day all (-;

[red]

First...thanks Janeth for the very useful links. I needed to be better informed than I was.

define:Imminent Hanging threateningly over one's head

I suffered a HUGE hit when "Austin" hit a few weeks back.
Though there are a couple of hundred extremely relative links coming into one of my sites only 6 continued to show up on Google. Last week that number increased to 12 and today (thus far) we're at 35. Even though I have nearly 20 more recognized (by Google) links than any of my closest competitors my keyword phrases that ranked in the top 5 for months can no longer be found.
I can't explain it and wish I knew what I was doing wrong so I could fix it before next week!
Anyhow, that's my story!

Happy Valentines Day all (-;

[janeth]

Hi Don Lee,

You may have already seen CBP's answer right above you post.

If not here it is again

The new index is at this data center:
http://64.233.161.99

You can go there and see where you will be ending up when it is all over at the end of the weekend.

[DeYo]

Is this an update or Google is going back to the old algo??? After their last update my site was completly gone and now it's back again. Now when I search for one of my keywords I'm back at #1 and my competitors are back too ... I see exactly the same results the way they were before the last update!

[cbp]

Even though I have nearly 20 more recognized (by Google) links than any of my closest competitors my keyword phrases that ranked in the top 5 for months can no longer be found.


Check the links:
1. Is the keyword(s) in the anchor text?
2. Are the links from what could be considered authority/expert sites or just from a links page?
3. Are the keyword(s) or theme of the page that the links are from match the keyword(s) or theme of the page on your site that they point to?

CBP

[cbp]

Is this an update or Google is going back to the old algo???

Its a another change to the algorithm or a "turning of the knobs" on the algorithm (not really an "update" like that we used to see in the past).

CBP

[minstrel]

nonetheless minstrel, a change in backlinks is hardly a justification for predicting a major shift in google aglo's.
Actually, I wasn't the one who said that - my comment was simply that the conclusion that Google was recognizing fewer backlinks or "dropping links" wasn't warranted.


i just question the applicability of the term "search analyst" if predictions are being made on information such as a change in backlink activity, or is the post just to generate forum activity?... it is much better to generate discourse when google has in fact made a change in ranking that is evident and lasting and people than can share information on what they think the change might have been.
I agree that no one but Google really knows what Google does... On the other hand, if you are suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed or encouraged to discuss thoughts, opinions, or hypotheses about what may be going on and where Google is headed, I have to disagree.

[red]

CBP wrote:

Check the links:
1. Is the keyword(s) in the anchor text?

>>Yes- 3 KW phrases on index page- all in body text and anchor text, density good.

2. Are the links from what could be considered authority/expert sites or just from a links page?

>>authority/expert sites

Most of the missing links are from authorities- this has me scratching my head. A few still exist. Here's another twist...my keyword phrases that ranked in the top 5 for months can no longer be found BUT our own links page still has very high rankings for some of the same phrases though it has no content to speak of. All it has are links to (mostly) related sites, only 3 or so. Perhaps it's because this particular page doesn't sit on the same server?

3. Are the keyword(s) or theme of the page that the links are from match the keyword(s) or theme of the page on your site that they point to?

>>Absolutely; anything less is suicidal...like it matters at this point! (-: All tags are designed individually for a specific product or category, info page etc.

Pagerank has not been affected at all; it's the only constant these past weeks. PR of 5 on index, sitemap and links page, 4 on many interior product pages.

Thanks for trying to help me sort this out. I appreciate it.

[fathom]

if this IS a full blown update, what should we name it?

Brittany suggested the Valentine's update :)

Frankly this is a WebmasterWorld tradition - and think that it should remain as such.

Note: you know you are doing something right - when others start to mimic you. WebProWorld needs it own niche.

[tonebase]

Bah! Humbug.

What do you expect. I am English.

I dont care, I dont see any change.

Lets forget links, links dont realy count for everything anymore.

We are all at the mercy of google, the moving target. Not everyone can be number 1.

I look forward to reviewing the forum over the next few days and deciding if it worth my time.

With regards to the naming of these updates? Again, perhaps time could be better spent?

Regards,

Tonebase

[dviney]

One interesting aspect of the change is that Google Directory results appear to have lost prominence:

Some of the pages on my personal site are in Open Directory (so get a decent pagerank as a result due to the traditional "back door" link to Google Directory).

However, on http://64.233.161.99/ Data Centre (where the change is brewing) the Directory results have dropped away.

For example, if you search on "David Viney Centrica" in Google, http://www.viney.com/DV/Mobile/mobile.html appears as second result - but (post change) this result has vanished altogether.

In fact, if you try searching for anything in the Google Directory on http://64.233.161.99/ you'll get navigational errors.

Is this just a normal "quirk" of such data centres, or is something going on with the Directory?

I must say, I hope so (as Open Directory's lack of progress over the last two years has been somewhat depressing - esp. when compared to Zeal/Looksmart)

[cbp]

Open Directory's lack of progress over the last two years has been somewhat depressing - esp. when compared to Zeal/Looksmart

? The ODP have added substantially more sites than Zeal in the last year or so. ODP is growing at a rate of 1000-4000 sites a day. Last I heard was that Zeal was a fraction of that amount.

CBP

[greeneagle]

No changes in SERP's or PR's for ourselves or clients! They are starting to run behind in PR updates. Doesn't even look like an update to us!
Ken

[aventvoy]

Hello everybody,
At the times of the "Florida update", lots of us in this forum cried out loud for seeing their PR and results having dramatically dropped.
I was much exited at that time to see both PR & resutls go up for 2 websites I take care of (results showing #1 for different keywords, and PR go to 5 & 6). The amount of visitors had also noticeably increased.
Now, since yesterday Friday, aaarrghh!!! PR=from 4 down to 0 for one site, and from PR6 to PR4 for the other one, and results for the same search terms dropped from #1 to #5 - #8. Not too bad, still, but I hope it's going to stop falling...
What would be interesting is to have someone able to enter the room where the "googleguy" is secluded and question him for good...
So far, nobody has really been able to let us know exactly what was going on... what Google was considering "relevant" as a link back, or if a page holding tenth of relevant links was considered as nothing because of too many links on the same page....
Thanks to you all professionals to keep digging for us!
Have a nice week end,
Alain
http://www.aventurevoyages.com
http://wwww.sgvenglish.com

[teleconnect]

Been a long 10 weeks or so after being wiped off the index under florida fiasco...I'm ranked number 4 and 3 under our search terms. Was there for 3+ years prior to florida.

Marty Screeton
http://www.teleconect.com

[mtbot]

If your phrase is Ohio brick layers, then use Ohio by itself alot, and brick(s) by itself, etc. If you use the exact phrase more than once or twice, the filter seems to kick in.

Jan, my best guess is that this is very good advice. I have felt for the last week that Google was filtering me for SEO. With nothing to lose, I am taking your suggestion and running with it.

If I understand your theory, by breaking down keyword phrases on the page in question, this will prevent a possible over-optimization filter from kicking in.

[cbp]

If I understand your theory, by breaking down keyword phrases on the page in question, this will prevent a possible over-optimization filter from kicking in.

Whooooa...hang on a minute... I do not think that there is an over optimisation filter. Where did that come from?

Before you rush and do this - read EVERYTHING in this thread,
http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10802

...especially ALL the articles linked in the thread - do not jump to conclusions and take potentially bad advice before considering all the possibilities.

CBP

[minstrel]

To expand on what cbp has said, I think the last thing anyone should be doing these days is running off to make wholesale changes to their websites based on fears and rumours.

To date, the best evidence we have, in my opinion, tells us that, with the exception of those webmasters and SEO experts who have been using promotiuon techniques that have always been clearly frowned upon by Google and all other search engines, most site owners should simply wait it out - the experience of the past few months I think tells us that in the short run the changes Google is making produce somewhat eccentric results, but in the longer term the search results actually are becoming cleaner and more relevant. In sectors where that is not yet apparent, expect more changes as Google continues the process of tweaking and moving toward that goal.

[janeth]

I would agree with Minstrel and CBP at this time no one knows what Google is looking at and they also seem to change every month.

The best thing to do is add good content, work on links, and keep optimization your pages.

It looks a lot like pre fla. to me right now.

[BackintheSwim]

hey ya'll
all I know is I like what I get here
http://64.233.161.99
way better than what I get here
http://www.google.com
no where near what I had before, but it's getting better.

[janeth]

Here is what Google Guy saod about it.

"Has Google applied some sort of OOP or filter to the algorithm since the Florida update or was the drastic change in SERPs purely the result of new ranking criteria?"

It's the second one. People post around here about filters, blocking, penalties, etc. etc. A far better explanation is "things which used to work before don't receive the same amount of credit now." It's natural for people who are way out there with their linking strategies or their page-building strategies to think of a drop as an over-optimization penalty, but it's more realistic to conclude that Google is weighting criteria differently so that over-optimized sites just aren't doing as well now.

[vjm1]

Hello all, this is my first post so bare with me please.

I have been in the SEO business for 4 years now and still have been unable to get a handle on these updates. I have been doing the same things for years, building good content, links and optimizing the pages with great success, I have several thousand listings in the top 20 on google, or should I say had.

The thing I see most often is that the sites that have been optimized with state names, or companies who's names are also their keywords, are the ones most affected.

If you search for any item with a full state name you often get garbage results, even on this ip we are looking at. Many of my clients are Realtors and Mortgage companies and they have vaporized. Others though that are not in that industry are fine.

I am leaning twords taking the optimized terms out of the title tags but that will ruin their top rankings on other engines.

To me this is not pre Florida but a continuation of the Florida update to more areas. I am finding that regional results are almost all changed. At least for the New England states.

Thanks for letting me vent.

[cbp]

The thing I see most often is that the sites that have been optimized with state names, or companies who's names are also their keywords, are the ones most affected.


This is why real estate and hotels sites were hard hit. My undertsanding is that this has something to do with the semantics type changes that Google may have implemented. This looks for relationships between words to see what a page means. A first glance, the semantic relationship between "city name" and "real estate" is maybe not clear. Towards the end of this thread:
http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10802

is a link to a discussion on Latent Semantic Indexing which may explain it better than I can ... if it does not put you to sleep.

CBP

[on line artisan]

Regarding the topic of Google And-Improved algorithm.

If someone out there could explain/suggest to me Why my E-Biz no longer shows up even when you type the entire title tag into the search window, but just about every one of the affiliates I'm with comes up.

And to add insult to injury I'm paying for Google AdWords.

[minstrel]

If you type in "Gifts, Cards, Prints, Fountains at Online Artisan Web Store Page" without the quotation marks, you are instructing to Google to search for those words in any order. Those are all pretty common words to be searching for...

If you include the quotation marks, you are requesting those words in the specified order: and doing this, Google gives only one result, which says --


Gifts, Cards, Prints, Fountains at Online Artisan Web Store Page
Home. ...
onlineartisan.com/ - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

What are the keywords for which your site has ranked best in the past? Have you seen a change in those rankings recently, and if so, how recently? How long has your site been online?

Google shows about 300 links to your site page if I request a search for the text of your URL (+"www.onlineartisan.com") but only about 22, all from your own site, when I request a search for the URL itself in URLs pointing to you (allinurl:www.onlineartisan.com). That makes me wonder about the quality of the other links... in fact, when I clicked on a couple of the pages returned in the text search, I couldn't find you listed -- link farms?

You only have a PageRank = 0... again, it makes me wonder if there really are any links out there still pointing to you other than those on your own website.

Also, most of the text on your home page has to do with stress and relaxation and such, which seems quite different from the words in your title. What keywords and phrases do you think people are going to type into the search box if they are looking for the products you sell? Answer that question and then revise the text as necessary to optimize for those words...

[Chatmaster]

I must agree with minstrel. Your backlinks looks very suspisious. You must also know that your page titles are important but not the only onpage factor affecting the rankings. Also I believe you are attempting to target to many keywords on EVERY PAGE in your website. That is shooting you in the foot. Focus each page in your website on specific kw's making use of "Title" corresponding "H1" Bold tags and onpage link and links text.

Good luck I really hope you sort out this problem.

[on line artisan]

I will take your ideas and advice to the site and in a day or so I may ask you to see if I got it right.

I hope this isn't to much to ask.

I look forward to your feed back should you have any other suggestions on improving the site and it's ranking.

Thank you again,

[on line artisan]

Minstrel and Chatmaster:

Please forgive me.

As you may have guested I'm a bit new to the ins-and-outs of forums.

Though both of you used the phrase suspicious and Minstrel used the phrase “link farm”.

I can a sure you both or any one that may checks out the site that until Minstrel brought this to my attention I was blissfully unaware that the site could be viewed/read as being “suspicious or as a link farm”.

The site went on line Oct. of 03 and the links coming and going have been in truth few and hopefully relevant to the site and its content.

Any suggestions on how this image problem could be cured would be more than greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

[bebarrett]

One of my sites, which is big with a one-word, high demand keyword (usually in the top 5 of over 3,000,000) as well as big with other key-phrases, has seen referrals from google drop to almost nothing in the past 48 hours.

Strangely though, the number of referals from other search engines has risen dramatically. Still, the past 48 hours is only 50% of the traffic I usually see.

[muckboots]

Do the Google changes really matter anymore?

I'm convinced that concentrated SEO effort is not worth the effort now. My site dropped from a Google rank of 6 on the main keyword search to between 70 and 80. So to did all the other sites that had been my peers and competitors in the top ten.

Working SEO is not something to bet traffic on. Pay per click and strategic linking and cross marketing is the only way to generate traffic.

I for one am not complaining. It's liberating and I see it as an opportunity and goal to better my marketing efforts rather than conforming a site to Google's whims.

Building content to satisfy Google was bad business. It caused stagnation in the content of the site. For nearly 6 months my content remained constant. Sale items or new products where added to the index page as graphics instead of text so as to not upset the Google cart. Good bye to that, it's time concentrate on real marketing instead of displaying content for spiders to read - they're not customers anyway. Let's get back to business, any good marketing ideas out there?

[janeth]

Hi muckboots,

Google is the #1 place for free traffic. That makes it worth the time but I would never change my site or taylor for the search engines and not the customers.

Google likes for you to change the information on your page not keep it the same.

I would never put all my eggs in one basket, but done right Google can make a really nice basket.

[minstrel]

Though both of you used the phrase suspicious and Minstrel used the phrase “link farm”. I can a sure you both or any one that may checks out the site that until Minstrel brought this to my attention I was blissfully unaware that the site could be viewed/read as being “suspicious or as a link farm”.

The site went on line Oct. of 03 and the links coming and going have been in truth few and hopefully relevant to the site and its content.

Any suggestions on how this image problem could be cured would be more than greatly appreciated.
It's not so much that you have to correct an image - it seemed to me you maye have been submitting your site to directories that rotate links, so although your link is there for a while, new submissions knock if off the link in anywhere from a few hours to a few days. The point is that while I didn't do an extensive or comprehensive check, the couple of backlinks reported by Google that I checked on didn't seem to still have you listed. That may mean you were listed and dropped, or maybe something else. Either way, they are not helping the ranking of your site at all now.

What you need to do, apart from the suggestions above about choosing some keyphrases and optimizing your pages individually for those phrases, is to establish some links to your site from other RELATED sites (e.g., gift sites or directories) - usually you do this by requesting reciprocal links with other sites like yours or submirtting to specific directories in your category.

[emersonworldwide]

Could you tell me how to check to see how many links Google has for my site? Thanks.

[minstrel]

These three methods will yield different results and in all likelihood none will reveal ALL the links to your site that Google knows about - enter the following in the Google search box:

link:www.yoursite.com (or just link:yoursite.com)
allinurl:www.yoursite.com
+"www.yoursite.com"

You may also find more links to your site by going to alltheweb.com and trying those methods there - this may give you more backlinks that the Google results, although it is at least theoretcially possible that some of the additional ones are not in Google's database.

[on line artisan]

Minstrel:

I appreciate your efforts to assist me with my site and it's dilemma.

Know that I am working on those suggestions we've covered.

Thanks again,

[AussieWebmaster]

FYI, I have 2 domains with same content. As an experiment, I haven't touched one in the last year and optimized the other with various Google recommendations. Well, the one I did not touch stayed at number one with the "discount marine supplies" keywords while the other one moved up an down from #4 to nowhere in sight. I thought that was interesting...

Question is what did you do for that first site 12 months ago... was it optimized in a certain style.

[AussieWebmaster]

Yeah we lost some links.... dropped from 1200 to 800!!!

[cbp]

Yeah we lost some links.... dropped from 1200 to 800!!!

How do you know you lost them? Google is probably still counting them, it is just getting stingy with the number of links it returns in the sample of backlinks it chooses to show.

CBP

[PCPerformanceparts]

I've been watching google closely for months now and I've noticed as long as you do not cheat and you follow their guidelines you end up on top no matter what -- design a good website with rich content and no one will top you.

My two cents.

[seafoam]

link:www.yoursite.com (or just link:yoursite.com)
allinurl:www.yoursite.com
+"www.yoursite.com"

Hi Minstrel,
I don't understand why you would recommend using allinurl to find backlinks. According to Google it will "restrict the results to those with all of the query words in the url ". This I wouold expect to only show pages from one's own site. Having said that I tried it on one of my sites and a few with my url embedded in a query string, and this really strange page:
www.sunrisewoodcrafts.ns.ca.addressinfo.sytes.net/ spurtles.html

Anyone any idea what that is about?

I did like your suggestion to use +"www.yoursite.com". At first I thought very few would actually link to a site with url as text. I was truly amazed to find so many that did! Thanks

derek
www.seafoamwoodturning.com

[WebMetro]

I have about 50 clients that are on a monthly SEO retainer, which gives me an excellent sample size of data to work with when an update occurs.

This is what I have seen:

Clients with networks of sites interlinked - Bad Update
Duplicate content issues - Bad Update
Lots of incoming links with strong anchor text - Good Update
Large website with thousands of pages - Good Update

It seems anchor text is much stronger in this update, but people who relied on dozens of websites interlinking will continue to suffer with this update. One way to recover, build other links besides your own internal link structure. Quality content will always beat the demon, but incoming links seem to be making the Google Gods happy with this update.

[anuj_pandit1]

Hello this Google Update will put lot of things infront of US.

We can not say any thing right now.......
But Internal Linking and PR playing good role.


Regards
Alok KUmar Upadhyay
http://www.brickred.com

[BlueEarl]

Thanks to all of you who have posted your comments to this sight and those who make this website possible.

Do any of you think Google is blocking certain keywords from the top of the search list in order to scare businesses into paying them for top placement?
All of the local real estate websites I work with that had been at the top of Google for years have suddenly disappeared, all at the same time. As a matter of fact ALL local real estate websites have disappeared for Louisville, Ky. I think Google is doing this because the new "corporate" leaders the inventors of Google brought in to get the company ready for the stock offering are solely focused on cranking up profits. The original idea the Google boys had for creating the Earth's most complete, free knowledge database is being corrupted by corporate greed. I also think the Google inventors are watching people search in vain for the information they need and can tell that people are going away empty handed. Since MSN.com has refused (so far) to follow the Google "corporate corruption" path, they will be where people will go to for their future searches.

[cbp]

Do any of you think Google is blocking certain keywords from the top of the search list in order to scare businesses into paying them for top placement?

No.


All of the local real estate websites I work with that had been at the top of Google for years have suddenly disappeared, all at the same time. As a matter of fact ALL local real estate websites have disappeared for Louisville, Ky. I think Google is doing this because the new "corporate" leaders the inventors of Google brought in to get the company ready for the stock offering are solely focused on cranking up profits

You are jumping to the wrong conclusion ...most real estate and hotel sites (ie sites associated with a location/city) were most affected because of the nature of the change to the search algorithm (eg maybe Latent Semantic Indexing), not to drive people to Adwords - only those who beleive in conspiracy theories seem to believe this - we have discussed this in several threads over the last few months.

With changes to the ranking formula location based sites were initially most affected because of the 'semantics' - rather than me explain it follow this thread and all the articles linked to in that thread: http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10802

Your logic that Google did this to crank up profits is flawed - Google needs lots of visitors to come along, some of which will click on the adwords. They only get lots of visitors if the results are of quality (debatable for some keywords).

CBP

[karkfump]

I've been watching google closely for months now and I've noticed as long as you do not cheat and you follow their guidelines you end up on top no matter what -- design a good website with rich content and no one will top you.

Well I don't mean to disagree, but I have been watching my website sit at the top five or ten results for over a year for the search term "alaska hunts" and I didn't even know how to cheat, and this hasn't prevented my site from dropping completely out of the listings for that search term. My site is full of content, updated often, and follows the rules as far as I can tell of anyone trying to keep a good business site alive.

the fourth site listed under the search phrase now is:
Education World ® - Lesson Planning: Explore Alaska: Three ...
Education World celebrates Alaska's 40th anniversary with scavenger hunts
for students across the grades. ... Explore Alaska: Three Scavenger Hunts. ...
www.education-world.com/a_lesson/lesson095.shtml - 31k - Feb 15, 2004

This is obviously a ludicrous return for the search phrase, yet it ranks #4. On top of this, I now find anti-hunting websites get a ranking, when my legitimate business site www.alaskahunts.net doesn't make the grade at all. Funny thing is, I laughed at the infamous austin update, because I wasn't effected, and apparently some folks still haven't felt the knife across the jugular yet, but if anyone thinks Google has some intelligence behind this ridiculous shifting of results they are kidding their self.

[cbp]

search term "alaska hunts"

Same issues that I responded to above re real estate. Given the "expert" semantics that Google is maybe possibly using - its all to do with the semantic link between alaska and hunts (ie there is not an obvious one).
Have careful read of this thread and links to articles: http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10802
...especially the bits about city/town/state (ie location) sites.

CBP

[karkfump]

cbp,

I have started on the article, but I must say it is way over my head. This algorithm stuff is a little like nuclear physics to me. It appears to me that a search engine should be able to determine by the very usage of a two word phrase (e.g. alaska hunts), that the person searching is linking those two words together in expectation of results that are somewhat meaningful. The thing I find difficult to understand is why I come up #5 when I enclose this term "alaska hunts" in the quotation marks, but I am not listed at all without them. In some of those new server deals I am listed #49 without the "", but my site is still listed #1 for Dall sheep hunts. this is what I really don't understand, if my site is so full of content (the content is actually quite balanced) to get the #1 rank for "dall sheep hunts" how is it that it has fallen so far for the other phrase it once ranked so high for? Sorry that I don't quite understand the math behind this folks, but Alta Vista sure seems to give me more intelligent search results.

[hawkwind dave]

I understand that the 2 http address below are 'google data centers' showing the most recent result in the SERP's.

http://64.233.161.99
http://64.233.161.104

I assume that the latter address (.104) more up-to-date than the first of the two (.99)?

If this is the case, how often does the http address change? Does the final number simply increase by 1 every day/week?

I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, just after a bit of clarification :-)

[Rninja]

I am just curious about a good example of complete SEO strategy when it comes to google. I've read articles, tried software, and even implimented many link exchanges, but I don't ever see good "ranking" occuring despite the effort put into SEO.

Maybe one you know of some good examples or advice for an actual effort that pays off...

[cbp]

Maybe one you know of some good examples or advice for an actual effort that pays off...

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10802

CBP

[larryc47]

If Google does it to us all again, I know what I would call it, but for public record I call it junk..........I don't think anybody really has any idea of what goes on in Google.
What am I missing?

DITTO....I agree with you 1000%..I just checked my keword phrases on all of the "new" google locations that I found posted in this forum and guess what..None of them come up in the same position on those newly listed IP addresses where you can view the new Google.."Gah-Gah" as I prefer to call it. I cleared my browser cache and history prior to each search too. There are so many people [and some pretty darn smart people at that] trying to get a handle on the logic used by the Google. When it comes right down to it, it's like a blind man throwing darts at noises.

larryc
http://www.genuineaustralianproducts.com

[minstrel]

I understand that the 2 http address below are 'google data centers' showing the most recent result in the SERP's.

http://64.233.161.99
http://64.233.161.104

I assume that the latter address (.104) more up-to-date than the first of the two (.99)?
No... they are just IP addresses... not correlated with how recent or old the "results" are...

[hawkwind dave]

Hi Minstrel, thanks for the reply,

What I am now wondering is why are the results in these two IP addresses different to the results in goog.com/.co.uk ?

http://64.233.161.99
http://64.233.161.104

My company is on page one in com/co.uk, and on page two in the above addresses.

Any ideas why?

[minstrel]

When Google makes changes to its ranking or indexing procedures (aka algorithm), they first test it out in one or two databanks, tweak it as necessary, and only when it is working the way they want it to is it transferred (propagated) to the other main databanks. So what you are seeing are test results not meant for the public eye which may or may not end up in the normal databanks.

[Genesistom]

Hello all. I have read many articles on here and found them to be very insightful. Through my limited experience, and through watching my competitors - while before the Austin update - our website was #1 for many keywords, but following the Austin update, I found that my competitors had many "internal" links that were counted as links that linked to them. I have noticed that my website: www.genesisglobalinc.com doesn't have any of the internal links that show up in Google's "pages that link to you".

My question is: Does anyone know how to get your internal links to get picked up by Google's Bot/Spider? I have over 260 pages of good content for my site but before Austin, they were picked up and post-Austin & Brandy, they have been dropped...???

Thank you in advance!

Tom
tom_griffin@genesisglobalinc.com

[minstrel]

before the Austin update - our website was #1 for many keywords, but following the Austin update, I found that my competitors had many "internal" links that were counted as links that linked to them. I have noticed that my website: www.genesisglobalinc.com doesn't have any of the internal links that show up in Google's "pages that link to you".

My question is: Does anyone know how to get your internal links to get picked up by Google's Bot/Spider? I have over 260 pages of good content for my site but before Austin, they were picked up and post-Austin & Brandy, they have been dropped...???
They probably haven't been dropped, per se. In fact, do a search on Goole using this:

+"www.genesisglobalinc.com" (include the quotes)

Click where it says "[ More results from www.genesisglobalinc.com ] " at the bottom of the second (sub) entry in the list - this reveals a number of your internal pages. Don't be dismayed by the fact that all of them show up because in Google they never will - you get a sample of pages only but it doesn't mean that Google doesn't know about the rest.

[Genesistom]

Thanks Minstrel. I appreciate your help.

Now, my question would be: Do you know of good ways to get an incoming link campaign going? I have purchased both Arelis and Zeus 2 days ago.....to help with incoming links.

I also was going to pay for incoming links on some of the link farms....and I will be buying today WebCEO 4.2 to help with the overall web marketing...

Any other thoughts on how to improve my incoming links?

Thanks again,

Tom
tom_griffin@genesisglobalinc.com

[Genesistom]

Minstrel & everyone,

Thanks for your previous help. My website www.genesisglobalinc.com I have followed the guidelines set forth by Brett Tabke and also read the book "Google Hacks" by Tara Calishain & Rael Dornfest (which after the recent updates, the book is probably out of date), optimized my website, have some incoming links but not many.

Is there anything else that you guys can tell me that I am doing wrong - for my PR to fall off the face of the planet?

Thanks in advance! I really appreciate it.

Tom
tom_griffin@genesisglobalinc.com

[minstrel]

Your PR hasn't fallen off the face of the planet - my Google toolbar says your PR=4. Getting more incoming links is the best way to boost that - a quick look at your home page doesn't indicate anything that should hinder your SE listings but depending on the keywords you may be in a highly competitive market - run some phrases through Google and look at the number of sites it comes up with - think about narrowing down that field of competition by highlighting a state or city name in your optimization strategies.

I'm not sure what you mean by "link farms" but the way most people use that term it's not a good investment - it will hurt more than help you.