An Open Letter to Mike

[urknighterrent]

I am very distressed about your reaction to the reputation threads:

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=74365&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Locked? YOU don't like that a tiny minority don't like your grand scheme to Googleize the forums so you're going to lock the threads?

Now personally I'm against it. I'm a cantancerous opinionated old man who believe's as I've said before, that a gentleman who doesn't know a spade from a shovel is a moron and should be told so to his face. I am a genuinly unlikable guy. I don't think I'm going to score so well on your new reputation, but that's not why I'm against it. I've already given my opinion on that subject in the LOCKED thread shown above if anybody cares.

While I'm against it, I'm certainly not so upset by it that I was thinking of leaving the community.

Censorship, on the other hand... Silencing the voices of the minority when they dissent?

That's another matter entirely. Now I'm not so sure this is the place for me any more.

[mike]

Thread was locked because there really wasn't much else to be said. There are some folks that feel, obviously, that it's the worst idea ever.

Understood. Message received. Objection noted.

However, there is obviously another contingent -the majority actually (based on the results of the poll) that see the concept as interesting or that don't have a strong opinion either way.

I wasn't at any point seeking public opinion of whether or not we make changes and what changes we were going to make. I asked people what kinds of labels they thought would be interesting in conjunction with an upcoming change.

As far as censorship... I didn't edit, remove or censor anybody's opinion. I didn't edit, remove or otherwise disable a poll. I simply drew a line at a point when I felt nothing further constructive was going to materialize.

Why? Several reasons, for example, the poll was not exactly neck and neck. The interpretation of the results by opponents of the scoring system was basically that foul play was responsible (which was preposterous).

There was nothing new being said in the thread accompanying the poll. A couple of folks felt like a reputation system was a negative. They had outlined their ideas -predominantly centered around corruption, collusion, intimidation and running everyone away from the forum. I read their positions, I considered their points and in the end, I simply do not agree.

I didn't censor anyone or anything at any time.

I locked the thread because it served no further purpose. Simply put, I am not changing my mind on the issue. If the system goes in and has a negative impact then I will look at it again. I do not foresee or agree that these supposed dire consequences are anything like an inevitability however.

I haven't finalized, much less released, any of the details surrounding the reputation system and as such, criticism of the system is based strictly on conjecture. Your reference to the reputation system as an effort to "Googleize" the forum just further serves to illustrate that fact. It is simply not the case. To be blunt, you don't even know what you're arguing against.

Beyond that, the locked thread was on the verge of spiraling into a flame fest. Already the Moderators were being accused of brown nosing for not agreeing with the anti-change crowd. The tone of the posts were becoming increasingly personal and there wasn't any indication to me that any larger purpose was being served.

So locking that thread, is hardly censorship. Censorship is keeping people from expressing their thoughts and opinions. Thoughts and opinions were expressed untouched and unmitigated. How exactly were "voices silenced"? How was the "minority unable to dissent"? Voices were heard and the minority was allowed to make their case. Then I locked the thread because it was, in my opinion, degrading into flame bait.

[weslinda]

All this over rankings? Too many people get their panties in a bunch when they feel "slighted". In reviewing the thread, it looks like everyone got to speak, and it was simply getting counterproductive.

Why are we all so hypersensitive these days? We all want free speach, but we can't say anthing that might offend anyone. Oxymoron isn't it?

Anywho, good luck with the ratings system and I hope I become an all star.

[carol]

Boy, here I am again, late to the party. My only negative comment is - I'm sorry you didn't run the poll a little longer. One day, even if it appeared pretty one-sided, is not long enough IMHO to get valid results. It's not like Election Day in the US, where everyone knows in advance what the issues are and when is the polling date.

Regarding the implementation of a Reputation System, I think you as forum owners have the right to implement whatever systems you choose. Personally, I subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy. And in doing so, I'm often hesitant to try something new. Sometimes I lose out because of this!

This forum has always been a fantastic resource for me. People have offered me some great advice (and perhaps some not so great advice, but I have to feel their intent was good). I've tried to contribute when I felt I had something to say, that wasn't already said.

I would hate for the community to deteriorate over a ranking system, and I think that is what all of the dissenters are afraid of. However, the only constant is, nothing will remain the same forever. We can only hope that as WPW changes, the change will be for the better.

And the sun will come up tomorrow!
~ Carol

[Dinghus]

So many discussion forums have ranking systems nowdays that this is no big deal. Admittedly most are just for fun and have strange names.

Some people just need to lighten up. Take a chill pill. Be koooool, fooooool.

[incrediblehelp]

So many discussion forums have ranking systems nowdays that this is no big deal. Admittedly most are just for fun and have strange names.

Some people just need to lighten up. Take a chill pill. Be koooool, fooooool.

Agreed.

[urknighterrent]

LMAO: I really didn't mean to restart the debate. I got my say on that already.

Thank's for replying so quickly, but I'm not buying what you're selling, Mike.

When I was living in vermont I attended a forum on racism. People were telling horrible stories about police harrasment, housing discrimination, public degradation, you know, very real stuff.

Then Snow White stands up and starts with the platitudes, "Stand up together and walk hand and hand into the future..." blah blah blah freakin blah. You know... all the stuff us white folks tell oursellves to make ourselves feel like we're a part of the solution without having to actually do anything.

God I wanted to throw a rock at that woman.

About 15 minutes into her white-bread diatribe the rest of the audience was clearly feeling the same way.

Finally the moderator asks her to stop. He has a volunteer take her name and number so they can contact her to help. She is escorted from the room.

A freind of mine, a reporter, mentions this. He doesn't use the word censorship. He just mentions that a white woman was interrupted in the middle of speaking and asked to stop.

All hell broke loose. Every black leader in town (most of whom hadn't even attended the meeting, btw) were screaming fo his head. A week later he was fired.

He sued. And Won. And the judge was not so gentle. He DID use the word "censorship". The moderator WAS out of line. Even us idiots have the right to express ourselves.

You say you didn't actutually delete anything. Granted. All you did was shut down the debate. That's censorship, too.

You say the debate didn't matter because the decision was made. Granted. Does it logically follow then that those of us who think it was a bad decision should just shut up and fall in with the party line? It doen't necessarilly follow that the discussion serves "No useful purpose". I'm a part of this community and I'm not cvomfortable with it. How do you know someone smarter than me isn't going to come along and smooth my ruffled feathers? I think our advertisers would agree that's a "useful purpose", yes?

You say that people were being preposterous about the poll results. Granted. No "But". That's just dumb.

You say the thread was about to spiral into a flamefest. Can't argue with that one, either. I'll just have to cede to your psychic precognition. My ability to foresee future events disappeared about the same time I stopped doing acid.

You know not everybody lives in here. I myself have been away for weeks at a time.

How exactly were "voices silenced"? How was the "minority unable to dissent"?

By shutting down the thread before everybody saw it or had a chnce to respond. I didn't even see the poll until about an hour before you shut it down.

I think you shut that thread down because you made a decision and worked hard to impliment it and when you presented it a lot of people responded negatively. I think that pissed you off and you just didn't want to hear it.

Mike, as admin of this forum, you are a decision maker. One of the ugly truths of being a decision maker is that not every decision you make is going to popular, and EVERY decision you make is going to have detractors. And you know what? Sometimes those detractors are going to be right. As admin of this forum it is your responsibility to LISTEN, even if you want to throw a rock at us.

I gotta go. I've used up all my breaks on this post.

:)

By the way, that means I still care.

[mike]

Oh I listen.

Really.

I just don't agree. At all.

So... that's kinda that. It's not that I don't want to be a good sport, and it's not that I don't care what people want to see in the forum.

That said, when people start flipping out and flying into hysterics over something that they have absolutely no idea about because exactly none of the details of the program have been released... then yes, it does get frustrating.

But that's cool. I don't really mind. In the end, I'm going to do what I'm going to do. If it works, great, if it doesn't... I'll change it.

I'm no stranger to criticism and I am not exactly what you would call thin skinned. That said, when folks take their foolishness to the extent of insulting the volunteer mods or just fly so far off into left field that any further discourse will obviously be nothing more than an exercise in futility... then yeah, I have a line.

Arguing over the merits of a system with completely no idea about any details of said system is... well... I'm not even gonna say it. Let's just say I don't consider it to be the most enlightened approach to the situation. It's like me trying to argue about what NASA ought to be doing with a mission to Mars.

If the poll thread had been going on in a civil fashion it would still be open. If the original thread had ANYTHING to do with what the topic of the original thread was supposed to be... it would still be open too.

I didn't close anything because I am afraid of opinions or criticism. I have been married for 10 years and have 2 daughters. Opinions and criticisms are 2nd nature to me. There's nothing here that can scare me at this point.

[weslinda]

Honestly...who cares? If you aren't here on a daily basis, and gone weeks at a time, then you might not realize that most posts in this forum are really only active for 1-3 days. That's it. Not the weeks you'd like to see something up.

This site and the actions of Mike, are far from censorship. As someone who read the post but didn't get involved, it is plainly obvious that the post was going downhill quickly.

Very threads get to three pages in this forum, and for someone to complain that others were censored simply sounds like an oversensitive individual seeking some reason to complain.

Honestly...in the words of Rodney King "can't we all just get along?"

[urknighterrent]

Well obviously I cared. Or I wouldn't have said anything.

Don't Patronize me young lady. I've been monitoring these forums a lot longer than you have, and just because I don't talk much or just because RL drags me away from the commuunity from time time doesn't invalidate me as a part of it.

You're right. Most posts last about three days and fade out without ever being locked. These were at three pages and were still going strong when they were locked. The discussion was clearly not yet over, in fact it was likely the hottest topic on the forum at that time. A lot of people were clearly upset, some even a bit irrational, but there was no flaming going on.

This thread did not die the kind of natural death you are talking about. It was put up against a wall and shot because someone in power found it to be an annoyance.

Call that whatever you want, Wes. I call it censorship.

Assuming the white-bread platitude was a clever dig allow me to counter with a more activist cliche:
"No justice, No peace."

After all, in view of the King verdict, the answer is "No. We Can't."
_________________
Why is it that the people who talk the most seem to have the least to say?

[weslinda]

1. I'm a guy, and if you were around these forums at all, you'd know that.

2. You have no understanding how long I've been coming to this forum, you simply know how long this current user name has been in this forum, so please don't try and assume you know anything about me.

3. The thread had went bad, as has this one, and off topic to say the least.

4. Find something to truly rant about, a real injustice to get upset about, not a thread on using various levels of reputation in a forum. I'll give you a few ideas you can run with and hopefully they will distract you from the highly aggregious "rankings" that WebProWorld is putting in place.

> World Hunger
> Racial Violence
> Spousal Abuse
> Breast Cancer
> Prostate Cancer
> Heart Disease
> Slavery
> and the list goes on...

Really...find something of value to rant about, I simply am amazed this is what drives you.

[urknighterrent]

OK. I'm Done in here, Young Fella. Sorry. You're right. I always considered name-hopping a bit dishonest, but I've been locked out of an email account or two in my day so I can see how it's sometimes neccessary. For all I know you've been here since the forum went up.

Now... as to "the highly aggregious "rankings" that WebProWorld is putting in place."

Stop being patronizing.

That's not what this thread was about and you darn well know it. It's about censorship. If you want to rag on me for my position on the reputation system why don't you just hop on that thread and do it.

Oh yeah... That's right... You can't.

It's locked.

[mike]

Oh good grief.

My 6 year old is a drama queen too.

[urknighterrent]

Now who's being a troll?

That sir, is a blatent flame.

I'm sorry I said anything. Clearly the management here has a different set of rules. I'm gone.

[weslinda]

Awww...name hopping eh? I went from my business name, to my personal name...oh the horror!

Really, you have nothing better to do than scream censorship in a web site forum discussing ratings, when you actually had a chance to speak your mind?

Come on, no one here comes close to believing what you are writing. No one else see's your travesty, no one else agrees that this forum is killing your freedom of speach.

Get over it, stop insulting people, and you won't get attacked. Everyone in here is open to ideas, but when a rant begin, the only thing people will do is roll their eyes at you, then make pure fun of you.

Finally, don't you try and censor me old man, I can be as patronizing as I want, free speach still reigns these days and as much as you hate to admit it, it reigns even here. I don't care if you like or dislike the ranking system. You clearly don't see that isn't the issue here, it's your claim to be being "censored" that is laughable at best.

Get a life, find a cause, volunteer at your local soup kitchen or something. Find something truly worth being angry about, and so you know, a ranking system on a web bulletin board isn't it.

[urknighterrent]

LOL
Look who's talking. Now who's all bent out of shape?

And your right. You do have free speech. As long as you're on Mike's side. If you're not he'll just lock your thread.

:)

That's that pesy censorship thing again.


Flame:
A searing e-mail or newsgroup message in which the writer attacks another participant in overly harsh, and often personal, terms. Flames are an unfortunate, but inevitable, element of unmoderated (Urk Edit: or badly moderated) conferences.

I think calling someone a "drama queen" qualifies.

As for insulting people, I give back what I get. No more, no less.

And now who's making presumptions? Or do you know what I do with my spare time?

I tell you what.. I got my fill of the soup kitchen doing my Community Service.

But I have found other ways to help.

[weslinda]

Out of 150+ posts on here and I'm assuming more than one thread, how many threads have you been locked out of?

Seriously, this just isn't worth it, and no one really cares. He didn't flame you, he mentioned his 6 year old kid as a drama queen as well, you took it as he was talking about you.

Then you called him a troll, I'm not sure which I'd rather be, a troll or a drama queen. Now I'll ponder that question while eating my lucky charms...thanks SEM, now I have to go to the store and get some lucky charms, this is all your fault Knight!

[urknighterrent]

You're being Patronizing again.

Never been locked out of a thread. Ever. On any forum.

As for the rest, it's all posted. I'll just let Mike's post stand on it's own merit. Personally I think he was digging at me. If you don't see that, well I guess I'm just oversensitive. Us drama queens can be like that.

And by the way...

For someone who doesn't care you're spending a lot of time on my thread. Don't they need you down at the soup kitchen?

[weslinda]

Nope, today is my day off from the soup kitchen.

[urknighterrent]

See? If you dig hard enough you always find common ground. :)

[Ne0]

Time to go to your respective corners...

I skimmed most of the posts...


Rep systems on a board this size is almost a necessity as you have people signing up (wolves in sheep's clothing) pretending to be a valuable poster... then just spamming... the rep system allows other users to call BS! then you don't waste time reading crud that you don't need to :)

it's a time saver... not meant for flame wars... it's a way to say thank you to people for insightful posts... and tell others... that you don't want spam around your home!

Need anything else really be said?

.02

[urknighterrent]

I understand that Neo. Honestly, that's not why I posted this thread. I am happy to call that a lost cause. I just dissaproved of the way the thread was shut down.

[weslinda]

My corner? Which is my corner...I'm so dizzy...fainting...someone call for help...

[mike]

Oh I was definitely digging at you. I thought you were 'gone' like... half a page ago?