Using IE 7 and IE6

[grillsgt]

I've read through much of the Web Site Accessibility and Usability topic (and used the site search for the rest of the topics) and haven't seen this addressed. How have other designers addressed the need or want to preview sites under development in both IE6 and IE7? If it's been addressed, I apologize for wasting people's time. Just point me in the right direction.

I keep getting a message from Windows that "updates are ready for your computer. Click here to install these updates." Well, the updates are actually one; update to IE7. I've been reluctant to do so for a couple of reasons. Last time I upgraded Windows Media Player I ended up in a reboot loop and had to reinstall my operating system. I'm also reluctant because it appears that there are still many unresolved issues with IE7 and I don't care to act as a Microsoft tester (not that I don't know how... I'm a test manager at major slot machine manufacturing company). Finally, you cannot upgrade to IE7 without overwriting IE6.

I have a variety of browsers installed on my computer: Opera, Firefox, Netscape, SeaMonkey, Avant and IE. I'd like to be able to use IE6 as well as IE7 to preview sites in both, but it's not possible in the normal sense. I've been informed by someone at MS that I can install a virtual PC and use IE6 that way.

I'm not adverse to upgrading, but more than 50% of my visitors use IE6 (as opposed to approcimately 25% that use IE7), so I want to make sure that the experience is pleasant.

[DaveSawers]

Get a cheap second hand computer and use that for IE6 testing?

[kgun]

Last time I upgraded Windows Media Player I ended up in a reboot loop and had to reinstall my operating system.


Do you not use system restore points? System normally restored in about 10 minutes.

I write for the future, so I do not have time to write for every one browser, but it is very important for eCommerce sites etc.

So I have not tried this, but is it not possible to

Install IE 6.0 in a non default folder or
Create a new user account and install it there or
Use multi boot?

[hoggy]

IE7 works fine, and many of your site visitors will have upgraded (some without realising) so you need to!

Download this tiny standalone version of IE6 which requires no installation:

http://browsers.evolt.org/download.php?/ie/32bit/standalone/ie6eolas_nt.zip

Seems to work well, but IIS sessions don't seem to persist for us.

[chrisJumbo]

For most people IE7 works fine. Although, I do know people that have had trouble with it and switched to firefox.

IE7 doesn't seem to like the external javascript for our menus, but other than that the page looks fine.

Options are: Don't convert all of your computers, virtual machine route (I know nothing about this), or get a cheap one to keep IE6 on.

[le_gber]

as hoggy mentioned you can run IE6 and IE7 at the same time (I have 4, 5, 5.5, 6 and 7 running here).

try Google for standalone internet explorer and you should get more that your share of solution ;)

[Chris]

the Internet Explorer blog has a post (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/11/30/ie6-and-ie7-running-on-a-single-machine.aspx) discussing this very topic.

[minorgod]

You can either install the standalone version of IE7 or you can upgrade to IE7 and then install the standalone version of IE6. Personally, I prefer to install the standalone version if IE7 and keep IE6 for now. Here's a link to the standalone IE7 page at TredoSoft...

http://tredosoft.com/IE7_standalone

Also, that blog post mentioned by a previous postser is good reading if you want to go the VM route. Some minor features of IE7 down't work in standalone mode, but it's good enough for my testing purposes. Enjoy.

[eyerhyme]

"Last time I upgraded Windows Media Player I ended up in a reboot loop and had to reinstall my operating system."

You have got to be kidding me? Not to start a MAC/PC flame here but COME ON! If I had to reinstall OS X because of upgrading Quicktime I would throw the whole damn thing out the window. It amazes me what PC guys will do to make things work when there is a BETTER option. Plus isn't IE just a big security hassle? If the car is nothing but a mechanic headache day after day, time to move on to something that works RELIABLY! Quit being M$ guinea pigs and beta testers. Leopard is coming soon and will ROCK!

[bj]

The standalones and virtuals have a history of being somewhat problematical, and won't read conditional comments correctly if you use them. I've also heard of people having registry issues with the standalones.

Since I need to have solid uptime I found it much less worrying to just have a separate test machine for IE7 (which happens to be my notebook 'puter I use for travelling.)

[Chris]

"Last time I upgraded Windows Media Player I ended up in a reboot loop and had to reinstall my operating system."

You have got to be kidding me? Not to start a MAC/PC flame here but COME ON! If I had to reinstall OS X because of upgrading Quicktime I would throw the whole damn thing out the window. It amazes me what PC guys will do to make things work when there is a BETTER option. Plus isn't IE just a big security hassle? If the car is nothing but a mechanic headache day after day, time to move on to something that works RELIABLY! Quit being M$ guinea pigs and beta testers. Leopard is coming soon and will ROCK!

too bad i'm a gamer...

[jnoneiliv1]

BE CAREFUL WITH MULTIPLE VERSIONS

I allowed two of my machines to automatically update to IE7 along with all the security patches. No problems and I stay on the bleading edge of the security patches and do not run virus protection as part of my defense strategy.

But, I uninstalled IE7 with plans to re-install IE6, (I did not look hard into installing a stand alone version of IE6), and on both my laptop and my desktop, both systems became unstable after using MSofts Software uninstall tool. I had to repair the XP install from the XP SP1 CD to get the systems running.

I have a hunch that SP2 and IE and the OS (explorer) are mutually dependent in ways that make uninstall unreliable.

I think your strategy to "freeze" your system until you're ready for IE7 is a good strategy.

I found very few rendering differences between Firefox and IE7 in strict mode. IE6 on the other hand is still a problem for my crude skills, so after I got my laptop working again, I installed IE6.

The virtual PC option is very good from what I have heard from sys admins, but I have not personal experience.

Good luck.

James

[koalaroo64]

I've also used the standalone browsers available at:
http://browsers.evolt.org/ but, as bj said, I've encountered a few issues. With the standalone IE6 browser, it generally works for me to show visible layout, but I've seen problems with javascript.

Another option, if you are willing to pay, is to use http://www.browsercam.com

This service provides access to a multitude of browsers on many platforms (Win98/XP/Vista, Mac OSX, Linux.) You can submit urls and specify browsers and OSs and they'll produce snapshot images. Alternatively, you can run one of their machines virtually in 30 minute sessions. I think the price is a little steep, but it has recently helped me out with a client using Mac (I'm on PC.)

[bj]

koalaroo64, it's been mentioned on css-discuss that people are allowed to "pool" their membership in browsercam, if I remember correctly. So if a membership is split amongst a few people it becomes more cost effective.

There is one unacceptable problem with depending on screenshots, and the reason I decided to go with a separate test machine-- in some layouts if there's overlap of some weird sort, things can LOOK right in the screenshot but the links won't work, since they're on the lower layer that's covered by the transparent upper layer. This is something a browsercam won't reveal.

Might I make a suggestion? If you're not doing a LOT of testing, you might find a "buddy" who has one browser installed, and if you have the other, you can test for each other. Two machines, two IE versions, less problems. If you are testing a lot, consider a separate machine. Ebay is a wonder that way.

[iany]

It is possible to set up IE6 standalone to recognise IE conditionals. I have both running on this computer and IE6 and IE5 standalone on another. You need to change some registry stuff but it is not that difficult.

I don't have the link sorry. But it is Googleable.

Ian

[smolam]

Hi,

There is a much easier way of doing it that give you way more flexibility you could get the recently released version of Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=04D26402-3199-48A3-AFA2-2DC0B40A73B6&displaylang=en) (free) and then you can download the preactivated Windows XP SP2 with IE6 Virtual PC image (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=21EABB90-958F-4B64-B5F1-73D0A413C8EF&displaylang=en)(also free) which you can load into Virtual PC 2007.

That way you can install your windows updates on your main PC and then do your IE6 testing in Virtual PC. I also use this to test other Windows based browsers.

This is all as recommended by the IE development team: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/11/30/ie6-and-ie7-running-on-a-single-machine.aspx

Hope that helps someone.

Sean

EDIT: sorry I didn't see tht you didn't want to use Virtual PC... well I hope the links help anyone who does want to use this way....

[koalaroo64]

bj, you're definitely right about the limitations of screenshots. Another limitation is that you have to specify before hand how many 'page downs' you want before the snapshot is taken - you can only see one 'screen' at a time. With the testing I needed to do on Mac, I actually ended up using the remote access which allowed me to login and operate the Mac box remotely. With that setup I was able to test everything, including a CSS photo gallery.

I had not heard of pooling browsercam memberships...that's a great idea too! I also have multiple boxes for testing, but had not acquired a Mac, so browsercam worked for that situation. I agree, if you have the space and time to keep them all running (and can get them all on your network so you can easily move test code back and forth) then having multiple test machines is probably the best solution.

thanks for the suggestions!

[eyerhyme]

"Last time I upgraded Windows Media Player I ended up in a reboot loop and had to reinstall my operating system."

You have got to be kidding me? Not to start a MAC/PC flame here but COME ON! If I had to reinstall OS X because of upgrading Quicktime I would throw the whole damn thing out the window. It amazes me what PC guys will do to make things work when there is a BETTER option. Plus isn't IE just a big security hassle? If the car is nothing but a mechanic headache day after day, time to move on to something that works RELIABLY! Quit being M$ guinea pigs and beta testers. Leopard is coming soon and will ROCK!

too bad i'm a gamer...

Buy an Xbox or Playstation,,, oh yeah... Macs do Windows now with Boot Camp and Parallels if you need a game fix. Prices are down and no other system lets you run windows, OS X, Linux, etc. on the same machine.

[RegDCP]

eyerhyme,
The Mac is just not mainstream enough to be worth the investment.
As a webmaster I am continually using different programs that will just not install on a mac.

grillsgt,
You could always setup a dual boot system.
One for IE7 and one for 6.

Reg

[bj]

As a webmaster I am continually using different programs that will just not install on a mac.

With Bootcamp you can run xp and install all your windows programs and run on either XP or OSX, so that's not true. And I think with Parallels it's even easier to switch back and forth between the two on one machine. I'm probably headed in that direction for my next purchase.

But now we've wandered far afield . . .

[operagost]

"Last time I upgraded Windows Media Player I ended up in a reboot loop and had to reinstall my operating system."

You have got to be kidding me? Not to start a MAC/PC flame here but COME ON! If I had to reinstall OS X because of upgrading Quicktime I would throw the whole damn thing out the window. It amazes me what PC guys will do to make things work when there is a BETTER option. Plus isn't IE just a big security hassle? If the car is nothing but a mechanic headache day after day, time to move on to something that works RELIABLY! Quit being M$ guinea pigs and beta testers. Leopard is coming soon and will ROCK!

too bad i'm a gamer...

Come on! Macs have lots of games. Like Breakout... Super Breakout... and Photoshop!

[grillsgt]

Thank you everyone for the terrific ideas. There are several that are feasible. I do have a spare computer that currently running 98. I was thinking about putting XP on it and using it as additional network storage and a print server. So maybe that's the route I'll go provided the hardware will support XP. The Virtual PC idea is also intriguing.

And for the record regarding the boot loop I got after upgrading Media Player. I could have used the restore option. However, I had another annoying problem on my compter that I could not find a solution for so I was already planing to reinstall my operating system. The boot loop just made me do it sooner.

Thanks again for all of the fantastic ideas. You've all been a great help!

[trancehead]

I use Multiple IE's (http://tredosoft.com/Multiple_IE). Install seperate, standalone IE's from IE 4 to IE 6.

Would be lost without it :)

[PollyX]

For a quick verification of rendering differences in Internet Explorer 7, 6 and 5.5 you may take a look at the free IE Netrenderer (http://ipinfo.info/netrenderer/). There is also an interesting difference viewer that reveals all too common positioning problems.

[edhan]

Some people ugraded by downloading do encountered problems with the IE7. I suspect that during the downloading, something has occurred without their knowledge and create the problems. As for me, I upgraded using the Microsoft IE7 CD I got from the distributor. IE7 works fine!

[hommealone]

Just putting in another vote for Tredosoft Multiple IEs. Works very well for me and has given me no problems, though I'm just testing layout and not cookies.

Makes you ask: how much effort is worthwhile to fix minor appearance problems in IE5.x ?

[bj]

Makes you ask: how much effort is worthwhile to fix minor appearance problems in IE5.x ?

Truthfully, I don't test in that browser. I will say this though. If you build your layout divs the way you want, and don't put any inner padding on them, then put "padder divs" inside them, with no width specified, that have either the horizontal margins or padding on them (instead of putting that stuff on the main structurals) you'll avoid 99% of the problems with IE5's broken box model (as well as some of the IE needing extra room thing that happens in the other versions.) Yes, it's a few more divs, but at least if there is someone using the site with an old version, they'll most likely be able to use the site.

[hommealone]

Thanks bj.

I'll play around a little bit with your div suggestion to see how it effects some of the problems I see with IE5.x

Looking at some of the statistics available on line - though they clearly vary wildly from one source to the next - it does appear that use of IE5 is probably as low as Safari use now, so as long as I don't see major problems showing up, I'm not bothering much with it. I can live with a few minor misalignments, etc. People using IE5 must be used to them by now anyway...

But differences between IE6 and IE7 seem significant and the Multiple IE solution does help me with that.

[kgun]

I've read through much of the Web Site Accessibility and Usability topic (and used the site search for the rest of the topics) and haven't seen this addressed. How have other designers addressed the need or want to preview sites under development in both IE6 and IE7? If it's been addressed, I apologize for wasting people's time. Just point me in the right direction.

Why is this post posted in the acessibility and usability forum?

Compare I.E 7.0 and Opera 9.1 and you know what I mean.

[rickbkis]

Have to whole-heartedly endorse the virtual OS method.

That's how I test almost all of the various browsers (and xPlatform software development, as well.)

Either Parallels or vmWare work great. Parallels is cheaper, newer, and quickly improving. vmWare is pricier, very stable, but just getting into Mac support.

Currently, I'm use Parallels on Mac, vmWare on windows.

I run XP, Server 2003, W2K, FreeBSD, and Linux in VMs, with the various browsers in those environments. You need to max out your RAM to use these.

Also: If you install W2K in a VM, you won't have the automatic upgrade problem from IE6, since IE7 doesn't work on W2K. Just let the W2K and IE6 autos come through.

rickb

[cppgenius]

IE6+7 certainly causes a lot of frustration for web developers, certain bugs in IE7 causes problems in IE6 when fixed and vice versa, so I no longer waste my time on fixing these minor issues, I simply state that Firefox renders my sites the best and displays it like it should be. It would be great if we can get all IE6 users on IE7 or even better, Firefox. That will make our work as web designers much easier.

My sites are not like Firefox-only sites (like the those IE-Only sites), you can view them with IE and I do my best to resolve all the issues in IE that are possible, but I'm not going to waste my time with issues that can't be solved or cannot be worked around, just to cater for people using a crippled browser, if they want to see my site like it should be, then they should use a browser that is more compliant with web standards.

[kgun]

Why did not anybody comment my point?

To those who only use FireFox. Would you reccomend FireFox to a disabled person?
To those who has the latest versions of the three major browsers. Have you seriously compared accesibility and usability? What is your conclusion?

This was a factual questions and not ad.

Please, answer and do not mislead the disabled user.

The subject is not moved from the accessibility and uasability forum.

[Chris]

well, k, he is talking about checking the usability of his site thru IE... perhaps this should've been moved, but i don't think it's that misleading.

[Peter (IMC)]

IE7 works fine, and many of your site visitors will have upgraded (some without realising) so you need to!
Unlikely,. :) IE7 is more a copy of FF than of IE6.

My experience with changing to IE7 is that IE7 doesn't do everything exactly the same as IE6. Some sites get some small distortions. Which basically just means we had to go check all sites we´re responsible for to make sure they´re all fine.

Upgrades are generally a good thing, but I really hope they won't redo the lay-out of the buttons again. The one thing I completely hate is that I have to actively search for buttons now. The reload button, the home button, etc. etc. they´re all in different places now. I was so used to the locations they were in before that it's taking weeks to get used to it and I still am going to the old places when I am really concentrating on some jobs. (which is a great way to lose your concentration by the way. If you'd put a dollar value on the time lost because of these things, this would be one of the most expensive updates ever. It could be considered a natural disaster!)

[kgun]

well, k, he is talking about checking the usability of his site thru IE... perhaps this should've been moved, but i don't think it's that misleading.

Usability, may be. But when it comes to accessibility, I can not see that MS has done a single thing for the disabled user as it stands in february 2007 with default options and default toolbars.

If you have not done it already, compare the three browsers on a lot of different pages:

IE7. I do not find a single option on the view menu. Am I missing something? If so, excuse me MS.
FireFox 2.0.0.1: View + Page Style. Only if there are more than one style sheet is there an option.
Opera 9.1: In order of priority:
[list:4f27c5cad3]
View + Style + User mode (the user's browser settings overrides the author's settings).
View + Style + Author mode (the author's style settings take precedence).
View + Style + Accessibility layout.
View + Style + Emulate text browser.
View + Atyle + High contrast white on black.

[/list:u:4f27c5cad3]

Test page: Footbag freaks (http://www.kjellbleivik.com/Books/CSS/chapter10/web_site_files/06_zoom_layout/fixedwidth.html)

That page has two (CSS) stylesheets:

Default lauout.
Zoom layout.


Try both if you have time, and you should have time, since this is a so important accessibility and usability issue.

May be after that testing you share my

Conclusion:
Without installing external toolbars and software components, the Opera 9.1 browser sets a standard. If you know people with disabilities, you should urge them to download and use Opera 9.1. Then a lot of accessibility problems will be eliminated. Opera is also in the front on mobile surfing and last but not leat on security.

"Opera is indeed the safest browser in the world. You have no way of convincing Opera 8.5 to allow JavaScript code to access a different server than the one it is loaded from".
Source: Brinzarea, Bucica, Darie and Chereches-Tosa (2006) "AJAX and PHP" page 84.

from the thread:
Modern webbrowsers, accessibility and usability (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=72049).

My private conclusion so long in this thread.

It is meaningless to talk about accessibility in IE 7.0. There are simply no accessibility options in the browser. The same conclusion is partly valid for FireFox, but in FireFox there have to be separate stylesheets made by the author. In Opera, you have a lot of usability and accessibility options built into the browser, spcifically aimed at users with different disabilities. The auther may design differnet style sheets, but in most cases it is not needed, since there are so many options for users with disabilities.

And as an economist, I should add an important economic efficiency aspect:
The way most modern browsers have implemented usability and accessibility options, are a huge vaste of resources.

Economic loss for surfers, especially disabled persons.
Economic loss for webmasters and companies, increased costs and decreased sales, in the end reduced cash flow.
Economic loss for the global economy. The solutions / options given by most modern browsers in february 2007 is far from Pareto and Welfare maximal.


Note: Pareto optimality is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for welfare maximum. Pareto optimality takes the economic system as given.

[texxs]

I beg to differ with the people who say "For most people IE 7 works fine"

Not that I have a huge knowledge base here but the only three people I know that have fallen victim to the forced "upgrade" have had nothing but problems.

I hear IE is fairly easy to roll back, this time

[JohneeMac]

I use Multiple IE's (http://tredosoft.com/Multiple_IE). Install seperate, standalone IE's from IE 4 to IE 6.

Would be lost without it :)

WHS

[HighSierraCamp]

An easy and free alternative to installing multiple versions of IE is to use http://browsershots.org/. This is an open-source online service where you upload the page you want to test to your server and then enter the url address at BrowserShots.org. It will allow you to select the various IE versions as well as other browsers and return a screen shot so that you can see what your page looks like.

[JohneeMac]

Personally would much rather have IE's installed instead of waiting for screenshots, a much faster process.

Ok maybe if you have tiny tweaks to do but when you are constantly updating pages you need something more efficient imo.

Edit: LOL, i take you have never even tried the browsershot website!!! Its doesnt support IE on Win or Mac. It also is taking forever to load. Its mostly Linux browsers with something like a 2%? market share. Benefits: if you dont have a Mac you can get a Safari output, but iv already waited 5 minutes and no screenshots whatsoever. Better going through and checking on my own Mac, much quicker.

I dont recommend this link to anyone, and is posted by what looks like a spammer.

[HighSierraCamp]

No, I'm not a spammer. I tried it once and while it was a bit slow, I thought it was a much easier alternative than installing multiple versions on your computer. It seemed to work on the page I was testing.