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firesidebks
09-17-2003, 02:53 PM
Help! I have used IE for some time...ever since netscape made theirs so graphic intensive that it slowed everything down (I think it was the next one after Netscape 4). Now since installing the latest IE6 and their bright idea of swamping the user with popups, I am about to tear my hair out...even with the free google pop up blocker, they still sneak through...at the most inopportune times. I think I'm clicking on something I want to click on and suddenly...I'm clicking on a pop-up!
So, it's time to change! I would like some opinions as to what is the best browser out there. I do have a 56k dial up, if that makes a difference.
(if this is the wrong forum, I apologize...I couldn't quite figure out where to go with this!)

paulhiles
09-17-2003, 04:24 PM
Hi firesidebks

Have you had a look at this topic in the Site Design forum? should we still support older browsers (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=5554)
This gives you a lot of information regarding current browser usage, and the current state of play regards Internet Explorer and potential rivals to its No.1 slot.

Maybe you might want to consider carbonize's comments?
I've gone off Opera in favour of Mozilla Firebird as it's free, has better Dom and DHTML support, and renders the page faster than it downloads it. Well it seems that way to me. Also Firebird has an excellent extension for it for web developers that lets you mark a pages block elements, tables, remove images, and so forth.

If you're using a 56k dial-up connection, clearly a stripped down sleek browser is what you're looking for.. so Firebird maybe the way to go. As a web developer, I need to have all major browsers at hand by default.. and so far I've not witnessed any serious pretenders to IE's position so far... but they're certainly catching up, and while development of IE is temporarily halted, this is certainly an opportune moment for the competition to overhaul the leader!

Look forward to hearing other points of view

Paul

flood6
09-18-2003, 12:36 PM
Whad do you mean about the popup thing? As far as I know IE doesn't come preloaded with popups just to piss you off. I know some places will add in their own software to make it do other things, but I use IE6 and get zero popups. I also have Norton Intenet Security which has a really good popup blocker and what it misses the google bar gets. You may have some spyware on your system. If you haven't done so check out AdAware6 (http://www.lavasoft.de/software/adaware/). The basic version is free and will scrub all the crappy programs that accumulate on your computer after internet use. I use it about once every two weeks, and everytime it finds something. If anybody doesn't have AdAware, do yourself a favor and get it.

AdAware may not be the answer to your problem, but like I said, I am not having the popup issues you seem to be dealing with.

Good luck.

bitwise
09-18-2003, 01:24 PM
I LOVE this thing! Hope you enjoy!

http://avantbrowser.com/

It's free, has a popup stoppers, tabbed browsing and much, much more!!

klunk42
09-18-2003, 01:32 PM
I had the same experience about popups and it drove me crazy. Then I got some virus and I bought norton internet security with anti-virus and bingo! popups are gone and no viruses. Excellent move. Good Luck! I really like this site. lots of help out there. Mike

jasidog
09-18-2003, 01:38 PM
I fail to understand what makes anyone think IE is a good browser. Don't get me wrong it works and this is not just a Microsoft bash.

I use plenty of Microsoft products. However in the case of IE, i only use it for checking compatability with any design i make.

Opera, Mozilla and Mozilla Firebird all have better features as standard.

They all block popups, they all support tabbed browsing. And there is so much more. Especialy in the case of Firebird and Mozilla where very small downloads will add extensions (extra features).

Try any of these, but don't just try them use them for an extended period, to give yourself a chance to like the differant ways in which they work.

Many of us have used IE exclusively for years and don't make the effort to apreciate alternative browsers. If it doesn't feel like IE we just chuck it.

There is absolutely no reason not to use another browser. There was a time when many sites didn't render well in them, but i find that is rarely an issue these days.

What's more it tends to be the site developers fault for using agent specific code instead of standards compliant mark up.

It's true that both mozilla and opera can seem a bit overloaded with features upon first usage. However, just spend some time customising, turning on or off the parts you do or don't need. You can remove buttons/links and whole toorbar if necisary.

My default browser is now Firebird, which though in beta still seems very stable. With addons such as the developers extension and one for increased function of the tabbed system, i find it invaluable,fast and functional.

I should also note firebird is only a 6mb download and mozilla it's self and Opera i had no difficulties running with on dial up.

Take your heads out the sand there are very good alternatives out there.

JayDrake
09-18-2003, 01:40 PM
You've said alot of things that I can hopefully help you out with. To start with, I second the motion to use Phoenix and I'll talk about that some further on as I address several things you've said in your post.


Help! I have used IE for some time...ever since netscape made theirs so graphic intensive that it slowed everything down (I think it was the next one after Netscape 4).


Okay, there are several reasons for IE running faster than Netscape. To start with, when you load netscape you are loading the browser, the email client, the newsreader and all the other trappings of an internet suite rather than just a browser. This is an awful waste of resources if all you want to do is browse the internet. Netscape is based on Mozilla, which has recently changed their model to seperate it's suite into a few components which includes the Firebird web browser. A few great things about Firebird include built-in popup blocking, better w3c standards support and proper rendering of transparent png's, which IE still can't seem to handle appropriately.

Now, another reason that IE 'works more quickly' than netscape is that it is always loaded into the windows memory as it uses the same engine that deals with your windows explorer so it will start faster than other browsers. I've noticed that netscape also renders pages slower than IE, but Firebird tends to render pages as quickly to me. (Haven't scientifically tested that, so I may be wrong entirely!)


Now since installing the latest IE6 and their bright idea of swamping the user with popups, I am about to tear my hair out...even with the free google pop up blocker, they still sneak through...at the most inopportune times. I think I'm clicking on something I want to click on and suddenly...I'm clicking on a pop-up!


The popups are not a product of IE. More than likely you have some form of spyware or adware on your machine that you received either by receiving an activeX loaded executable in mail or while browsing or by loading a program that additionally loads similar software. Programs that do this include some surfbars and file sharing applications. I recommend checking out adaware by lavasoft and removing pretty much anything it finds. Now, if you have any program that loaded one of these on when you loaded the program then it likely checks for the existence of the adware/spyware and won't run without it, so you might want to be careful there, but I prefer to lose almost any application rather than deal with evil popups.

webmasta
09-18-2003, 01:45 PM
Norton Intenet Security which has a really good popup blockerDoes such a good job that it blocks legitimate popups that are user initiated.. which is totally inappropriate.

NIS injects a code snippet into the page before it even reaches the browser..this causes blanket stopping of all popups.. what happens if your site uses popup windows to convey relative info? Like shopping cart or checkout etc..

Zone alarm does the same thing but its far more "intelligent" to allow popups from clicked links and stop unwanted ones.

Norton should NOT be allowed to tamper with our pages just to enhance the features of their software. It program must work independent of our pages.

Jane Wilson
09-18-2003, 01:47 PM
Give Opera a try - renders very fast, useful 'additional' information, and it helps break the IE monopoly :). Good luck.

arvana
09-18-2003, 01:51 PM
If you're checking out anti-spyware software, try SpyBot - http://www.safer-networking.org/. It's free and works very well.

sschwarz
09-18-2003, 02:25 PM
I've developed websites for over 10 years, and IE consistently outperforms Netscape when interpreting HTML and DHTML code. just my $0.02. [/b]

flood6
09-18-2003, 02:49 PM
Norton Intenet Security which has a really good popup blockerDoes such a good job that it blocks legitimate popups that are user initiated.. which is totally inappropriate.

NIS injects a code snippet into the page before it even reaches the browser..this causes blanket stopping of all popups.. what happens if your site uses popup windows to convey relative info? Like shopping cart or checkout etc..

Zone alarm does the same thing but its far more "intelligent" to allow popups from clicked links and stop unwanted ones.

Norton should NOT be allowed to tamper with our pages just to enhance the features of their software. It program must work independent of our pages.

POPUP LOVING WEBMASTERS UNITE!!! Come on, I can tell when a popup should have happened, kill the pupup blocker, then reload the page. I fully admit that this procedure may not be easy to explain to my gradmother, but most average users can grasp that there will be some trade off when all the popups are kicked off your computer. A friend of mine uses zone alrm and loves it too, but I don't think it works nearly as well as Norton, and virus definition updates are relesed less frequently than NIS, too. Webmasters can design better popup scripts for functionality purposes. http://www.darkjade.com/advanced_search.php I can click on the "Search Help" halfway up the page and the info pops up, despite the EVIL code alterning NIS. Or the "Enlarge Image" links on the product discription pages, works like a champ.

Whatever, this is off topic and I'm not a Norton zealot anyways, I can't imagine any software that will be loved by all. I just found the "Call to Arms" tone in the quoted post funny.

rocky1
09-18-2003, 02:58 PM
Is it just me or are there others herein that find it interesting how numerous folks in this forum talk about the other browsers being superior to Internet Explorer in one breath, and then in turn suggest that because Microsoft is holding up development on IE while other more interesting Microsoft specific design languages are delevoped, the others are afforded time to catch up and surpass Microsoft? HMMMMMMMM!

As for the pop-ups try the Pop-Up Stopper download at www.panicware.com. Just don't be surprised when it stops everything that tries to pop-up, it's simply doing it's job. They have installed a manual override for user activated pop-ups.


Rocky
www.rtfi.us

brettgodfrey
09-18-2003, 03:03 PM
Until recently I always used IE as it was there.

Whilst developing a accessible site I downloaded Mozilla, Netscape and Avant to see how the site looked on as many browsers as possible.

Of the four I prefer Avant. Good pop-up blocker AND flash blocker. It also has some extra mouse functions.

ONE QUESTION THOUGH.....Microsoft are constantly implementing security fixes for IE. What about the rest?? Am I at risk with the others or is IE just badly written??

I agree with the other comments re pop-ups, this is not a MS function ;)

NORWOOD
09-18-2003, 03:05 PM
I have used Mozilla since release 1.0 and as I type I am using 1.4. It is very stable and I have become so used to it that I dread when I have to fire-up I.E. (Which I only do to check for web design compatability.) I really love Mozilla's tab pages, it saves a lot of time and space

One note, don't use Outlook (any flavor) because There are known security holes and there are more more comming every day. Outlook is the best way for trouble to find you.

HillsCap
09-18-2003, 03:11 PM
I'm almost 100% sure you've got ad-ware on your system. I just helped a friend out who was being swamped by popups, and she had 27 ad-ware programs on her computer! Of course, she was dumb enough to believe that free software comes with no strings attached (no spy-ware, ad-ware).

So, don't ditch IE, it's the most used browser out there for a very good reason... it works, it allows web authors to do things that are near-to-impossible with the other browsers (believe me, I ran up against so many limitations in Mozilla/Opera/NS that I gave up trying to support them... they are just not ready for DHTML.) For simple web pages, any other browser is fine, but for advanced pages, IE is the clear leader. An analogy is... if you only drive 20 MPH all the time, then any old car will do, but if you want your car to go fast, have a heads-up windshield display, voice-activated features, GPS position mapping, etc., you don't go out and buy a Yugo.

To prevent this ad-ware/spy-ware/mal-ware from even being installed in the future, you might want to check out a free program called Spyware Blaster. It sets the CSLID 'kill-bit' for all known spy-ware/ad-ware/mal-ware, and prevents it from even being able to be run. Also use Spyware Blaster to disable Flash, unless you really need it (Flash has introduced a wide-open hole through which malicious programmers can introduce spy/ad/mal-ware/virii to your system, that conventional AV can't catch in time to prevent it's installation).

Then, run the real-time mal-ware checker from Wilders Security. It's like real-time antivirus checking for spy-ware/ad-ware/mal-ware. It's called Spyware Guard.

And get SpyBot Search & Destroy, and Ad-Aware as added measures, and run them once a week. Be sure to install the Spybot HOSTS file (it redirects known malicious websites to 127.0.0.1 so the website can't even load into the browser), and use the Spybot real-time BHO (Browser Helper Object) that is an additional measure of protection against malicious websites.

Of course, I shouldn't have to tell you that you should be running a firewall. I recommend ZoneAlarm, unless you are running a program that creates a high number of simultaneous connections, which will crash ZoneAlarm after some time. In that case, try the Norton solution. Also, if you're running WinXP, set up ICF (Internet Connection Firewall)... it's the most robust stateful packet inspection firewall I've seen (I've thrown 100 connections/second at it, and it's taken it and kept going). It doesn't have program access control like ZoneAlarm, but it helps to keep hackers out of your computer. Right now, I'm trying to convince the developers of ZoneAlarm to have a function in ZoneAlarm for WinXP users in which they can turn off the ZoneAlarm firewall function, but keep the program access control running... the best of ZoneAlarm and ICF, without the ZoneAlarm crashes under high simultaneous connections.

And, of course, you HAVE TO run antivirus software. That should be a given. I recommend Norton AV 2003.

There are also several services in WinXP you SHOULD NOT BE RUNNING UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! Go to BlackViper.com to figure out which you should/should not be running.

Disable NetBIOS, disable DCOM (go to grc.com to get a program called the DCOMbobulator), disable Full Raw Sockets (go to grc.com to get a program called Socket Lock), disable CPUID in your BIOS, disable File and Print sharing unless you REALLY need it, disable any communication protocols you don't need (usually IPX/SPX, NetBEUI).

Unregister MS Messenger (unless you use it) to prevent it from opening one TCP port and one UDP port, even if you've set it so it can't run. (Search the 'net for the keywords "unregister MS Messenger").

Use Norton AV to scan your email for malicious attachments (the most common source of picking up spy/mal/ad-ware). If you're using Outlook, set it so it's running in the Restricted Zone (look at Outlook's settings to do this) so attachments can't automatically launch. And set your Internet Connection Settings 'Restricted Zone' to DISABLE EVERYTHING!

Get a program called SpySites (it adds all known malicious websites into the Restricted Zone, so they can't do anything if you surf them.)

Use the Google Toolbar's popup blocker (be informed that if you install some of the advanced features of the Google Toolbar, it WILL track you as you surf the internet. If you don't like this, disable the advanced features.)

Don't surf known malicious websites, and don't download or install software without knowing whether they contain spy/ad/mal-ware. Before any software installation, scan the files in question with your AV. After any software installation, run Ad-Aware and Spybot Search & Destroy and your AV.

That should have your computer locked up tighter than a drum. I haven't had a single pop-up in over 6 months.

As an added benefit, our computers are practically hack-proof (we had a DDOS attack a while back that was hitting us with over 300 requests per second to our DNS server (Simple DNS Plus). Of course, I have Simple DNS Plus set up to block such attempts, so it didn't even affect us except that our bandwidth was maxed during the attack. And we've had several concerted efforts at break-ins to our computers (one guy tried over 10000 times over the course of a few days to find any open port, but couldn't. All our ports are stealthed.))

USALUG
09-18-2003, 03:21 PM
Personal favorites include Opera, Mozilla, Firebird. Since I run Linux, I don't use IE anymore at all. (Except to test the look of web pages)

As far as other browsers "catiching up" to IE that's a joke in my opinion. IE doesn't even have tabbed browsing last I checked. M$ has a virtual monopoly on the browser dept. simply because of their OS dominance on the desktop..... ( although I'm trying to change that :) ). IE is NOT the most standards compliant browser either, I believe that would be Opera or Mozilla. IE also sticks in tags that only windows supports, and basically snubs their nose at the w3c. IE is also only faster, because it's so tightly integrated into the OS. Great if you can't wait 5 seconds for your browser to start, the downside is when your browser crashes you probably get the honor of rebooting to fix things again. Not to mention all the security problems IE has had.

I code to look good on mozilla and opera, and things usually look the same on cross platforms and different browsers, even IE.

rlrouse
09-18-2003, 03:39 PM
bitwise:

Thanks for the Avant Browser recommendation. I downloaded and installed it and all I can say is awesome!

JayDrake
09-18-2003, 04:01 PM
I've developed websites for over 10 years, and IE consistently outperforms Netscape when interpreting HTML and DHTML code. just my $0.02. [/b]

Actually, valid HTML/XHTML renders correctly in current versions of mozilla and mozilla based browsers such as Netscape and Firebird. IE, on the other hand, has some minor issues with CSS compliance still, as well as issues with transparent png's as I mentioned earlier and cheerfully supports bad practices by gracefully dealing with incorrectly designed pages. (One of the best examples being how it deals with tables where closing tags are forgotten or otherwise mangled by the site designer.)

Now, it is surely nicer to see bad code in IE than in a properly compliant browser, but the fact is that the web designer shouldn't be releasing bad HTML/XHTML.

The other issue with IE is that they tend to toss out their own little non-standard items which inexperienced designers get hold of and use only to find out that a properly standards compliant browser doesn't load their site. The reason isn't that the browser is broke, though usually that is what these people will say in their whining about Mozilla, Netscape, et al. The problem rather is that designers should design within appropriate standards.

pcwebdesign
09-18-2003, 06:11 PM
I think Crazy Browser found at http://www.crazybrowser.com/ is really great.

It has a popup stopper, tabbed browsing, easy clearing of history and numerous other features.

minstrel
09-18-2003, 07:22 PM
Now since installing the latest IE6 and their bright idea of swamping the user with popups, I am about to tear my hair out...even with the free google pop up blocker, they still sneak through...at the most inopportune times. I think I'm clicking on something I want to click on and suddenly...I'm clicking on a pop-up!

I hate popups with a passion and I'm also on 56k dial-up because nothing else is available out here in rural Ontario. But you don't need a new browser -- what you DO need is a more efficient popup killer and (along with EVERYONE else these days) you definitely ALSO NEED a firewall (preferably one a bit more capable than the native Windows XP one) and the good news is that you can get both in one: Norton Personal Firewall -- I haven't seen a popup in so long that until I see a post like this one I forget how angry I used to get at them. There is one site where I have explicitly instructed the firewall to allow popups because I need them there, but otherwise I just don't see them at all :-)

(I WAS tempted to add some more SENTENCES with all-caps words in them but decided that the hate-mail I might get wasn't worth it)

firesidebks
09-18-2003, 08:20 PM
Thanks for all of the info. I've been using Norton AV and Spybot. I will try out some of the other things mentioned. As someone mentioned...there is always a risk with downloading "free" ware and unless it's recommended, I steer clear of it. Since I'm not a web designer by profession...just have to keep up with mine, my folks' and my writer's group...the subtleties of IE vs the others in that area may not matter (in other words, "20mph" is probably ok for me, lol). I've downloaded Firebird and the new Mozilla...was a little confused as to whether I needed both?? I'm going to also check out some of the others. I wanted to have a couple different browsers on my computer anyway to check out how my site looks on them.
Thanks for all of the info...I'm going to stash a copy of it for future reference...a lot to absorb all at once.

jestersi
09-26-2003, 07:19 PM
Personally Mozilla is the best browser, it can stop popups on it's own and has at least a little more control over javascript than IE. It also has tab browsing, not to mention it's cross platform as well.

I find it more stable than IE but when somthing goes wrong in mozilla it just crashes unlike IE where it'll just display a really messed up screen.

And mozilla is updated and built daily, you can't beat the response time on bugs compared to IE.

p.s. it's free and it didn't come from bill.

okcitykid
10-11-2003, 04:09 PM
I use Netscpae 7.1. It blocks all popups and I find it to be faster. But some things require a plugin and I can't find it so I ignore it. And every once in awhile I get this stupid error message box about a million times and it locks everything up. Two to three times a week. But I still think its better than IE.

Lightenex
10-15-2003, 12:01 PM
Well, It is depends very much on how many customers use IE and how many customers use Netscape or other browsers. What do we develop a web site for???
In China, IE is almost 100%!!! So, we can only test our programs on IE, that's enough. But in other country, Linux, UNIX has a large userbase, so Netscape and other browsers's testing seems very important. So, if you have NC customers or IE customers, write better scripts![/b]

redcircle
10-16-2003, 09:45 PM
What is IE, never heard of it before. Oh yeah.. that's because I'm running linux..

My preferred browser is Firebird. I love the extensions. I have had problems with some of them on my windows box though. the google bar doesn't search properly all the time. I have had some problems lately with it doing wierd things in linux. I have to keep Mozilla 1.5 and Firebird open just in case firebird messes up.

One thing I will give to IE is the ability to install plugins without having to restart the browser.

paulhiles
10-16-2003, 10:10 PM
Hi redcircle,

I'd go along with your choice of Firebird.. ever since carbonize started singing its praises.. I've been trying it out bit by bit... and it's certainly winning me over. The developer extension set alone is... (to use an American phrase) awesome! :c)
I think there's still a lot of work to be done on supporting all the latest DHTML and CSS technologies, but they're rapidly eclipsing poor old IE!

Paul

HillsCap
10-27-2003, 09:29 PM
JayDrake wrote:
The problem rather is that designers should design within appropriate standards.

Well, our site uses DHTML to allow only certain parts of the page to be dynamically updated from external HTML (not HTML that's already in the code that's been loaded in).

The W3C has deprecated Frames (for good reason), and IFrames (again, for good reason), but have left web developers no alternative that would allow, say, a page header with a market price quotes ticker, and a RealPlayer object showing video market news to stay loaded as the user surfed the rest of the site, without having to reload the entire page each time a link was clicked.

When I contacted the W3C about this and asked for suggestions, they said I should load in all the pages I wanted right at the start, loading them into separate DIV containers, then manipulating the visibility of those DIV containers to simulate new pages loading in.

Say what?! Yeah, load in dozens of pages right off the bat... and my 56Kbps users wouldn't complain a bit... right.

The REASON Microsoft includes proprietary tags is because the W3C isn't listening to the web developers and figuring out what they need to get the job done... they keep coming up with new technologies, but not once have they stopped to ask the web developers if it's something they'd need or want or use.

That's EXACTLY why IE is so popular... because it uses proprietary tags that allow web developers to do what can't be done in NS, Mozilla, Opera, etc. Gecko based browsers only support the W3C-standard tags (with the exception of NS supporting innerHTML, which they only added due to popular demand because IE was kicking their butt because of it).

Because they only support W3C-standard tags, the browsers can't do what IE can do... hence, IE makes it easier for web developers to make better web pages, and those better web pages attract more users to IE.

I guarantee that the day that NS, Mozilla, Opera, etc. have support for true DHTML (the ability to dynamically change parts of the web page from external HTML code, while keeping the rest of the page loaded), I'll code for them... until then, they just can't do what I need our website to do.

When I asked the W3C why they didn't just give the DIV container a SRC attribute, they said that it had been originally planned that way, but that they had inadvertantly left that part of the standard out, and it was too late to go back and fix it now.

Imagine being able to change the contents of a DIV container via Javascript (just change the SRC attribute) as easily as you can change an IMG SRC via Javascript... THAT is true DHTML.

ranjan
10-29-2003, 03:49 AM
IE, on the other hand, has some minor issues with CSS compliance still

An understatement. IE 5 has over 150 CSS bugs. Its is the next Netscape 4!

Bugs List

http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/ie5.html

starrwriter
10-30-2003, 02:55 AM
IE is the best browser, but all of them have their own peculiar problems.

matauri
10-30-2003, 03:05 AM
Because I am a multi-tasker junkie, I am always on the lookout for good browsers. I have found the more that the browsers compete with each other the more they burden themselves with features that slow them down. I have gone from slow, to fast, back to slow, now back to fast internet connections. So how a browser performs in the speed department has always been important to me. When Opera brought out its first browsers I thought they were the best on the market. It was fast & multi-tasking was a breeze. Then as it developed the slower it got.

Paul & Carbonize convinced me to try Firebird. A good browser, though on initial start up it loads a bit slow. Netscape/Mozilla require a pack lunch by the time they load. IE while demonized, is still the faster loading program.

If browsers want to compete or supply a superior product, I feel they have to direct their energies better. Are they going to be a good browser? Or are they going to be browsers that compete with all the bells & whistles? A browser's main functionality should be to be browse the internet. Concentrate on reading the pages accurately. Not be a great email program or whatever. Develop those separately if they must.

And I still use my old Opera when I want to browse & multi-task quickly.

My 5 cents worth (we dont have 2 cents) :-)

dealercrm
11-08-2003, 04:18 PM
I use all the browsers to test my developed sites to make certain that they are compliant with all of the intricate behaviours of the various browsers.

Overall I see a higher trend of IE used by my visitors.

I personally use IE and Opera... IE crashes ... Opera doesn't.... Opera is faster at rendering some pages while IE is faster at others.

I can create more advanced GUI's by utilizing IE if developing a backend application.

HillsCap
11-11-2003, 04:46 PM
Plus, I remember reading a while back about Opera 'phoning home'... keeping track of where people were surfing. I'll try to dig out the URL when I get the time.

AlexBel
11-11-2003, 05:55 PM
Just look at statistics:
Internet Explorer, Mozilla and Opera...