Shopping Cart recommendations

[Solaron]

I have been checking out shopping carts that will take credit cards, paypal and have inventory control plus order tracking, shipping etc. Who has the best? I am leaning towards a product called ASPDOTNETSTORE 3.1 Is there anyone using this and can offer good/negative comments on this product? Also if there are better carts out there than the ASP platform. I see alot of PHP and CGI carts. Which platform might be taking the current shopping carts into the future?

Thanks,

Peter

[Corey Bryant]

I won't get into the PHP / ASP debate. Some developers prefer PHP while some prefer ASP. And then you also bring in .NET :)

It first depends on what you are selling. I have not used the ASP.NET Store myself - we usually use ASP. Most of the carts we build are to our customer's specs.

Make sure that you can change some of the coding on the pre-made carts. Some will not allow you. Another one you might take a look at is www.vpasp.com

[brandblast]

Solaron,

All the features you described are available from osCommerce Shooping Cart, it has thousands of users and huge development community, it is PHP based.

It will take credit cards, paypal and have inventory control plus order tracking, shipping etc.

For more information on osCommerce go to http://brandblast.com/web-hosting/hosting-oscommerce-shopping-cart.html or http://oscommerce.com

[121merchantaccount]

I like the Miva Shopping cart as it offers multiple payment processing options, multiple tax options, multiple shipping options, multiple categories, sub categories, multiple stores, point and click image uploading, searchable data base, and has a world of modules to add on as your business grows.

(mod edit: no self-promotion, please) just visit Miva.com.

I'm not just hyping this cart. I use it my self.

Good luck.

[Aleppo]

MIVA is an excellent shopping cart

[brandblast]

Miva is indeed a good shopping cart...with a hefty license price attached to it, it's fine when some hosts give it away for free, but there's always a possibility you will eventually get hit with some type of licensing fee, that's the reason why osCommerce is a better choice, it's free and you can move it from host to host so you're not bound to any one service provider. In addition, osCommerce has the same exact features mentioned above as Miva, really a win win situation for anyone looking into e-commerce.

[Marc Bowker]

I'm looking for an easy-to-use, all-in-one ecommerce package for someone with very basic html skills. I checked out oscommerce and, frankly, I felt lost. I need something that can handle 300+ inventory items, works in conjunction with a .csv database, has flexible shipping & payment options, and looks good. Oh yeah, and it can't be too pricey. I'm currently using Microsoft's bcentral shopping cart option. Any suggestions?

[Corey Bryant]

I'm looking for an easy-to-use, all-in-one ecommerce package for someone with very basic html skills. I checked out oscommerce and, frankly, I felt lost. I need something that can handle 300+ inventory items, works in conjunction with a .csv database, has flexible shipping & payment options, and looks good. Oh yeah, and it can't be too pricey. I'm currently using Microsoft's bcentral shopping cart option. Any suggestions?
Are you wanting a hosting solution possibly? You can check out www.linkpointcart.com for one. Or did you want an ASP if you are on a windows server? I do have a basic cart in ASP if you are interested (free).

[Marc Bowker]

Corey,

I'm happy with my current host. I know that I'm going to sound like a complete moron here, but what is ASP? Is it like HTML? Can I use Frontpage or Dreamweaver with it?

[Corey Bryant]

ASP is one language to basically speak with a database, usually MS Access. It is ran on a Windows server. You also have PHP, usually to speak with an MySQL database & usually ran on a Linux server. You might check with your hosting company to see what they can offer if you are not familiar at all with it or consider a hosted solution with an e-commerce company. And when I say this, I mean the shopping cart would only be hosted there not your web site.

[ursulab2]

I just want to throw in my comments about OScommerce. IT'S THE BEST SHOPPING CART I'VE EVER USED!!! Ok... I love oscommerce. I refer it to everyone I know. Not only does it come with many many features, there are literally hundreds of add-ons for it. And who can beat the price? It's FREE. If you haven't used OScommerce before I'd give it a shot. I have used many many shopping carts in my years as a web designer specializing in ecommerce solutions. Nothing really touches OS in my opinion.

Good Luck to you!

[Blooming]

I use candypress and couldn't be happier--Great product and price and the support is handle via a board and responded to within hours. Might be worth a look . . .

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

(mod edit: no self-promotion, please)

I'm writing a book on shopping carts, due out in September '04. Yes, osCommerce will be discussed. Designers like it because it doesn't take them long to import their simple designs. As for site owners attempting to manage their stores, the system is not recommended by me on my radio show.

Yes, there are many developers that contribute to the osCommerce system, but there is a lack of support. I've only found two sites that actually offer support for the system. osCommerce is a package that many people have put their fingers into and typically, if something isn't working right you have to find the person that developed that piece.

I realize the osCommerce fans will disagree, but I'm not here to argue. Let's just agree to disagree. The person asked for opinions and I gave mine just as you gave yours. Respect that and don't flame.

I hope this helps site owners determine what they want to use and not get led into a system where support is lacking.

[Lee Dev of PSC e-c for m2]

Lee Roberts
Has the date of adding more info into your book closed?
I would like the opportunity to talk to about the next generations of shopping carts that allows via web service to do automatic bids in portals for not only catalog parts but also made to specification parts. I have the stand alone for m2specs available today with details at www.psc4.biz. I will be soon be release the portal with web services at www.quotes4.biz .

[shersleather]

Try http://www.AgoraCart.com. It's Free!

Sher

[attitudenz]

Given his response I am not sure how carefully the WebDoctor has looked at osCommerce. True to his prediction I will disagree - I think this may be useful for someone seriously looking at osCommerce.



Designers like it because it doesn't take them long to import their simple designs. As for site owners attempting to manage their stores, the system is not recommended by me on my radio show.


In relation to modifying how the cart looks I would say designers don't like it. Since PHP and HTML markup are side by side in the main application files, a developer without knowledge of PHP will get lost pretty quick. A template driven system would be more useful for someone like this. This is supposedly on the way with osCommerce 2.2MS3. If you or your developer are comfortable with PHP you should have no problems changing how the site looks. Just be prepared for a decent amount of time if the design you are implementing is complicated.



Yes, there are many developers that contribute to the osCommerce system, but there is a lack of support. I've only found two sites that actually offer support for the system. osCommerce is a package that many people have put their fingers into and typically, if something isn't working right you have to find the person that developed that piece.


This is partly innacurate. One of the complaints about osCommerce is how the small group of core developers regulate changes to the code - some say it is not an open enough open source project. "If something isn't working right" typically the bug will be identified quickly and fixed. In my opinion the Milestone releases of osCommerce are stable and have been tested and reliably used on a huge numbers of sites.

If you are installing contributions/modifications, this is a potential problem as there are not the same testing of code and bug tracking that is in place with the core code.

The support issue, is not as serious as the documentation issue. Free support is available in the osCommerce forums. Getting a good response there relies on a clearly stating your problem and showing you have done some research first. Paid support is a google search or forum post away. As a siteowner you often have to prepared to dig to find out what a particular configuration setting does, as the documentation and FAQ's out there don't always explain everything in a simple way.

[brucet]

Your choice should be guided not just by the features you need, but also by your level of technical expertise, your budget and how you want to pay, and how much control you want to retain.

OSCommerce is free and very flexible, but it takes a lot of technical knowledge to set up. Being open source, if you need any support you are reliant on the goodwill of other users who read and post on their forum. Miva is also good, and the entry cost is low; the down side is that you are tied to them for the life of your store, you pay a montly rental, and it has to be hosted on one of their servers.

If you buy a packaged desktop solution, the up-front cost will be higher, but the ongoing costs will be lower. You should be able host it whereever you choose, and easily relocate it you have any problems with the hosting. It will also be fully supported.

If this is the kind of approach you are looking for, you have a number of options. If you search on Google for 'ecommerce software', I'm sure you will find something that will do what you want.

[barneyp]

Hi Solaron,

Just to throw another software into the mix. I have been using EROL for the last two years and I have found it the most flexible piece of software I ever laid my fingers on.

You build your store offline (it is fully functional offline as well as online) and then the job of publishing to the web and managing your orders is all done by EROL. It doesn't use PHP or ASP, just good HTML, very search engine friendly and easy to host.

The web address for these guys is www.erolonline.co.uk.

Barney

[Corey Bryant]

Actually for LinkPoint cart, you do not change your hosts. Another place, check out www.mals-e.com. They are based in Europe. I do not know if that might pose a problem for you.

[dark one]

I have been checking out shopping carts that will take credit cards, paypal and have inventory control plus order tracking, shipping etc. Who has the best? I am leaning towards a product called ASPDOTNETSTORE 3.1 Is there anyone using this and can offer good/negative comments on this product? Also if there are better carts out there than the ASP platform. I see alot of PHP and CGI carts. Which platform might be taking the current shopping carts into the future?

Thanks,

Peter

i consider php is most of now and the future. every day i see it becoming more popular.
i've built several ecommerce project with http://x-cart.com/ . every time it was a success. and they have even more than you need.
not objective am i? yes. it's a goot addition in your "to look at" list anyway.

have a look and tell me what you think.

[tabletpcs.net]

Hello,
I’m looking for an e-commerce solution for B2B. Something like a regular store but it should be easier to place large orders. Instead showing the items with the pictures I want just a list of products and only if you want the client could go to a more detailed page of that product.
It should also support user accounts and different level of discounts for different type of customers that in our case are other businesses reselling our products.
Is anything like that out there?

Thank you

[Corey Bryant]

What language are you looking for PHP or ASP? You might check out osCommerce & its contributions out if it is PHP. For ASP, it would be pretty easy to customize a cart for you.

[tabletpcs.net]

I'm looking fo a php cart.

[Corey Bryant]

Definitely check out www.oscommerce.com - they have a number of contributions as well to help you out.

[davebarnes]

Marc,

You asked: "I'm looking for an easy-to-use, all-in-one ecommerce package for someone with very basic html skills."

Take a look at www.litecommerce.com

,dave

[John Glube]

I'm looking for an easy-to-use, all-in-one ecommerce package for someone with very basic html skills. I checked out oscommerce and, frankly, I felt lost. I need something that can handle 300+ inventory items, works in conjunction with a .csv database, has flexible shipping & payment options, and looks good. Oh yeah, and it can't be too pricey. I'm currently using Microsoft's bcentral shopping cart option. Any suggestions?

Marc,

Microsoft does offer good service and support.

There are at least two firms on the market offering a reasonably priced "easy-to-use all-in-one ecommerce package for someone with very basic html skills."

In no particular order:

* Ultimate Marketers Resource (http://www.goldbar.net/go.php?id=4914&c=840&ac=webpro)

The suite of online tools you can access as a member includes a shopping cart (up to 10,000 items), set up and run affiliate programs, unlimited auto-responders, list servers, ad co-ops, surveys, polls, security certificate with contact center and just about every other tool you need to run an online business.

(I use this particular service myself.)

* 1 Shopping Cart (http://www.1shoppingcart.com/)

The suite of online tools includes a shopping cart (up to 10,000 items I believe), auto-responders/list server, track affiliates and a few other bells and whistles.

(I don't use their service - UMR competes with I shopping cart for your [people in your situation)]business.)

Trusting this information is helpful.

Kind regards,

John Glube
Toronto, Canada

[dark one]

Hello,
I’m looking for an e-commerce solution for B2B. Something like a regular store but it should be easier to place large orders. Instead showing the items with the pictures I want just a list of products and only if you want the client could go to a more detailed page of that product.
It should also support user accounts and different level of discounts for different type of customers that in our case are other businesses reselling our products.
Is anything like that out there?

Thank you

i've looked at www.litecommerce.com and think it might be the cart you need. If you would use it, let us know what you think. i might use it as well.

thanx

[Karenl]

I'm looking for an UK php shopping cart. I'm not keen on oscommerce because I don't like the layout of it.

Karen

[dark one]

I'm looking for an UK php shopping cart. I'm not keen on oscommerce because I don't like the layout of it.

Karen

have a look at
http://forum.x-cart.com/images/ranks/XX5.gif (www.x-cart.com)
they had something about UK.

[Karenl]

Thank Dark One, off to have a look.

What do you think of this cart http://www.clickcartpro.co.uk/html/index.htm Is it in cgi?

How secure is cgi? Would it be a good cart. Sorry for the million questions.

Karen

[dark one]

Karen,

that's what forums are, right?

i've looked at them. quite pretty cart, but i didn't like it. my reasons:
1. perl. the scripting language used for the cart. it grows no more. at least less than before. quite possible this project will stagnate due to this reason
2. i got used to more pretty things. just personal opinion.
3. functionality did not impress me. x-cart can more. btw i've talked to one guy from UK on forum at x-cart. he was not complaining ;)
4. i don't think they cost these money
5. have you seen url to their demo? it's
http://www.clickcartpro.co.uk/demo/ccp51/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi
now exclude "demo". still not pretty huh?

perhaps it would be a good cart, but i would choose something different.

the security point is not a scripting language chosen. it's little more complexed. the basic thing is the code. i know nothing about it and these folks not telling you: none talk of own faults. the second thing is the server configuration. site security depends on this combination.

[Karenl]

dark one,

I've chosen to go with the x-cart. I agree. The look of the clickpro is not so nice. Also there's five steps to checkout. Very long and tedious. As for the programming. I don't have a clue, lol :) I have found a web designer to help incorporate the cart. X-cart doesn't have UK real time shipping like the clickpro. They said they hope to add that feature in the future. Maybe :)

X-cart is allot prettier.

Thanks for the advise,

Karen

[dark one]

Karen,

I've worked with them around some progects. All have been successful. Hope they'll help you as well.

[coriander]

EROL3 does not require a database. You can create a CD direct from your website and you do not need HTML knowledge to build and maintain your shopping cart. Get a demo at http://www.erolonline.co.uk

[jrwrestling]

I agree with attitudenz about osC. WebDoc, I understand your point of view, to a certain degree.

However, think of it this way:

Most packages of e-commerce software available fail in comparision to osC. With the remainder of the few very pricy shopping carts that do hold similar characteristics, they do not have daily contributions. The contributions they do have are often sold again.

Now I am NOT one to pinch a penny, if a product is worth it, Ill pay. My problem with paying comes into play when a free item has superior flexibility when you KNOW how to edit/write/use php. The few problems I have noticed from osC are easily fixed with just some minor php knowledge.

You have to pay a price one way or another:

Either pay money for a dumbed down (micro$oft type) product, or pay the price learning something (php) and get yourself a much more useful product...

[wt4kp]

I agree with jrwrestling. You have to pay one way or another. It's matter of you value time or save some money in the long run.

If you choose to use osC, now these day many of the hosting company already had it installed; hence, it save you some time to install it yourslef. Instead you can concentrate to customize the look and product section.

lifetimewebhosting.com and lunarpages.com both already had oSC install and it's free if you want to have any add-on.

On the other hand, you can choose to have a host that bind with all the ecommerce solution for you, such as essentialwebsolution.com, check the feature page. In this case, you are paying for more delicate service and support.

Again, it's all up to your budget, time and support you need.

[dark one]

there's one thing you seem forget except the time loss.
choosing osc you'd need to deal with a platform requiring MUCH custom work, so you'd deal with lots of your own bugs and of cource you'd be fixing most of them on the live store, if you don't have a staff of beta testers. i'd call it needless headache (personal opinion).
every shopping cart at the beginning was started by just couple programmers. was it good at that time? no. what should you expect from somethig you've built big part of alone? nothing better i suppose. unless you're absolute genius of course :)
so my point is to build a good product you need either good platform or good technology. i don't mean tchnologically advanced developer, i mean a solid technology to develop good software. very few of us can say they have it. so i choose a good platform and i don't think osc is strong enough.

that's what i think about it

[asimegusta]

You asked for opinions about shopping carts and this is mine. Please no need to jump on me if you like a different cart. As we say in French (translated)"You can't argue about personal tastes and color preferences."

I am happy using a shopping cart systems called http://www.king-cart.com. It works for my heavy option product line, has responsive-mail support and moderate fees.

Cordially,
asimegusta
www.valencia-linens-outlet.com

[dark one]

You asked for opinions about shopping carts and this is mine. Please no need to jump on me if you like a different cart. As we say in French (translated)"You can't argue about personal tastes and color preferences."


no one is going to jump on you - don't worry. we are here to exchange opinions and find what cart and development strategy is the best for building online store.
well, not bad cart i must say. i didn't like only 3 things:
1. cgi. don't think best platform for a cart - personal opinion
2. design. looked at dozen of stores. perhaps something pretty can be done with that, but i didn't find it there
3. speed. it's too slow in my opinion. all the stores i looked through were slow.

[mhalloran]

One item no-one has discussed is living with your choice. I personally chose OSCommerce, I'm a programmer (but _NOT_ a web designer - not artsy enough) - so the .php didn't bother me. I have two big points for OSC, one good, one bad.

Once you've gone with OSC, you'll certainly end up modifying it, adding contributions, etc... Well, you've pretty much made the decision to stay with the base revision of code for a while - upgrading is subject to applying every single modification you've already made (this is the negative).

On the up side, I had the pleasant opportunity of having to change ISPs (old host was having up-time & responsiveness problems...). I am happy to report that I had my entire site, catalog and all moved and up-and-running within two hours - Having seen others move much simpler sites - seeing the problems that one can have, this was spectacular. One nice thing about being common tools based...

Cheers,

Mark

[wen_laat]

Hi,

This one has been mentioned before, but I want to recommend it again. www.mals-e.com I've been using this one for quite some time now, because it is so easy to use, and I didn't want to get involved with php. The basic account is free, which means you get to do just about anything, but you can't use a 3rd party gateway payment like 2checkout, you'll have to upgrade to a premium account, which is $6 per month. We still use Paypal (I know) and that is available through the basic shoppingcart.

You just place links for the products on your webpage, and you'll have your own personal payment screen, with your own banner, own colours, everything really.

Their support forums are great, and if you have a question specifically for Mal, you'll get an answer within 2 working days.

I really recommend them!

Wendy

[Solaron]

I have had a chance to look into some of these programs. I currently use ECBuilder Pro($200USD) and the program is ok but, the work window is too small and you have to load the whole site (my site is 50+ megs)every time you make changes. I like the copy and paste of product to add items then change the stock number. It needs upgrading.

The web pages optimize ok but the pics don't compress on the category pages (long loads with 56k).

I'm looking at Shop factory($395USD). But, they are out of Australia. Anybody use this? How is support?

Maybe x-cart?

Ecbuilder is in Canada and support is costly! that's why i'm changing.

I just want the best, easiest, search engine friendly, paypal ready, CC accepting, data import/exporting, no monthly fee cart in the U.S.

Is that too hard to find?

please steer me in the right direction before summer so I can get this site ready for the Christmas season.

Thanks,

Peter

[sadcox66]

Yes, there are many developers that contribute to the osCommerce system, but there is a lack of support. I've only found two sites that actually offer support for the system. osCommerce is a package that many people have put their fingers into and typically, if something isn't working right you have to find the person that developed that piece.


Support is a vital item to consider when selecting a shopping cart.

To elaborate, a shopping cart interfaces with external website such as payment processors (paypal,2checkout,merchant ...) and shipping processors (ups,fedex, others)., currency conversion etc., every now and then they change their interface API and if your on your own you may not realize you need the code fixed. So you need someone who keeps track of these changes in industry as well.

Support also is needed when your web hosting company upgrades to a new version of PHP/MySql databases for security reasons or additional features. It is also important for you to be aware of what libraries are installed because certain contributions/modules depending on them may not work with the newer versions and you may need to upgrade your contribution/module.

Typical external factors like the above can easily affect your business so it is important to a make partnership with people who keep aware of the changes that may affect you. Hopefully they will also be able to provide solutions to these changes to minimize the business downtime.

In the case of osCommerce there are a lot of people using this shopping cart and there is easy information availability if you know where to look.

There are many companies that make it their business to know what the coming changes are by monitoring the forums and the contribution upgrades to make sure their customers have the least downtime in their business.

[bythevineyard]

Just my 2 cents.

Have worked with many shopping carts and systems that charged outrageous prices.

I just discovered osCommerce last month and it is without a doubt the best shopping cart package I have come across.

Highly recommended and you get the source code so you can change it in any way you wish.

As far as support, you have the input of thousands of other users who have gone through or are in the process of going through the same thing as you.

It is simply outstanding.

Dave

http://bythevineyard.com
[/url]

[Chris W.P.]

Hi everyone. As a new member of this forum and having read right through this thread, I thought that I might just add my 2p worth to the discussion on Shopping Carts.

For the past 18 months, we have used Mals eCommerce shopping cart and had absolutely NO problems whatsoever. Very easy to instal and add new products to the website + shopping cart. Whilst we use the service, which is hosted, for our static HTML pages (some 800 pages so far, but covering over 1,100 products), the service can be used for dynamic websites as well (but no experience of that side). The service costs only US$72 per year for the Premium Service (well worth it), as it gives far more flexibility to customise pages, features, etc. in a very easy to use control panel. I believe they have over 61,000 users of the Premium Service, with over 84,000 users counting the *Free* service. Email support we have found to be excellent and responses can be over-night, or at the most 36 hours.

The problem that we have now encountered is that we wish to migrate to more advanced analytical software, but being a hosted service, understandably Mal Stewart cannot allow people like us attaching tags, cookies etc, to all the pages in the Shopping Cart, as the core of the service is used by so many other users. The service does not allow us to join any Affiliate Marketing Program either (except CJ), because of the inability to tag relevant pages.

Consequently, albeit sadly, we are looking to migrate to another SC and the one 'in the frame' at the moment (though not mentioned by anyone in this thread) is WA eCart, from WebAssist. It seems very professional, costs US$130 approx. and is the Extension which is Macromedia Approved. However, I have no facts on how easy it might be to instal, but as we use Dreamweaver to build our pages (another 400+ on their way), we are inclined to lean towards a product that is approved by someone as established as Macromedia.

Incidentally, WebAssist have a number of other products in their 'stable' which are also Macromedia Approved, one of which we may also buy - WA Universal Email (cost: US$100 approx.).

Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of WebAssist products that they can share, please?

[BazaarBuilder]

Have a look at http://www.bazaarbuilder.com .

Why are BazaarBuilder shopping cart solutions so much better than competitor products?

BazaarBuilder is provided as a complete ready-to-use e-commerce software package so that you don't have to purchase additional services separately.

Easy to use shopping cart solution-there's no programming or database configuration required
Comprehensive Order Processing tools for managing your online store's orders

Works with Dreamweaver, Frontpage and any other such design tool to provide a seamless fit into your website's design

Powerful Stock control feature that allows you to control what you sell through your website

Free support by email or telephone-our customer support is the best in the industry

Offer free customisation of the shopping cart software to match your website's own design to save you time and money

[hotwheel]

Please excuse me for being a bit forward on my first post at this forum, but since when was 'free' better?

I often hear the praises of osCommerce and the glory it holds for all who deploy. It is simply not the case.

Anyone who has a physical store operation knows that making an infrastructure decision has so much more involved than upfront cost.

Try integrating osC with an enterprise level system such as PeopleSoft. Better yet, what happens if you have to handle high loads of traffic if your business is successful? Can you upgrade to a more enterprise level database? Can you load balance across multiple servers easily and correctly? Are you content being confined to pre-determined business logic?

Are there any other folks here who do NOT sing the praises of osCommerce?

[anablake]

I'm looking at Shop factory($395USD). But, they are out of Australia. Anybody use this? How is support?

Thanks,

Peter

We are currently using Shop Factory and I'm in this forum looking for another shopping cart program. It has many limitations. Definitely not search engine friendly and is not easy to customize, in my opinion.

The numbering of the individual products (numbered as you add each one) becomes the name of the page i.e. p_2384.html and the "departments" are all numbered in their creation in the same fashion i.e. dept_148.html. Very difficult to cross reference your actual product ID to the webpage unless you do it through the shop factory program. There is no way to change this although I did at least get the titles of the pages to match the products for the sake of SEO.

The templates for the site appearance are also not that easy to change and customize.

Hence, I'm "shopping around" for new shopping cart software.

Hope that helps :)

[sadcox66]

Try integrating osC with an enterprise level system such as PeopleSoft. Better yet, what happens if you have to handle high loads of traffic if your business is successful? Can you upgrade to a more enterprise level database? Can you load balance across multiple servers easily and correctly? Are you content being confined to pre-determined business logic?


I have integrated osCommerce to PeopleSoft and it works and have taken care of load balancing accross multiple platforms with traffic considerations.

I took each problem as an entity in itself and discovered that the shortcomings you mention are not related to the shopping cart or one particular piece of software or hardware.

To stress the the point the load balancing was not influcenced by the cart, any cart would have done and the load balancing worked separately.

The traffic issues were not influenced by the cart we setup a good set of application and tuned them to handle the traffic and the oscommerce shopping cart was one of them.

We also changed the backend to handle a larger number of products distributed over geographically distributed servers. The more I write this the more I realize you have not thought of the problem as a whole and are blaming a small part of the puzzle for the whole situation. I'am sorry it did not work out for you and your blaming it on osCommerce.