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daniel-flavius
09-10-2003, 06:08 PM
Artificial Intelligence is a combination of computer science, physiology, and philosophy.
In the quest to create intelligent machines, the field of Artificial Intelligence has split into several different approaches based on the opinions about the most promising methods and theories.
These rivaling theories have lead researchers in one of two basic approaches; bottom-up and top-down. Bottom-up theorists believe the best way to achieve artificial intelligence is to build electronic replicas of the human brain's complex network of neurons, while the top-down approach attempts to mimic the brain's behavior with computer programs.
...well, I think we should approach this problem from the organic example because it's a perfect example and if someone would be kind enough to disagree with my opinion, I should tell him that unfortunately it's the only one we've got. Everything is great until here.
But there is a little problem that for some reason unknown to me, nobody is willing to admit:
we don't yet understand our own intelligence.
In order to build an intelligence you need also a conscience which has its roots at the subconscious level that again we don't know and cannot control, and that is another problem.
I mean where do you separate the conscience from the brain.
There is something they forgot.
We can build neural networks for example so we have some artificial neurons who can make up a decision based on training with similar situation, maybe someday we'll have the whole artificial brain but how can they implement the unforeseeable intelligence which makes us unique.
My point is you can't make a machine distinguish from right or wrong, only what its "creator" thinks, or wants to think, is right or wrong.

What is your opinion?

globalhostinggroup
07-24-2004, 11:40 AM
What is the outcome of true AI is it our undoing or our progression in science will true AI resent man or put us on a pedestal. The fact is man is flawed with hate greed and pride a true AI must have the same flaws or it is a limited slave and not self aware. Maybe one day our knowledge experience and emotions will be downloadable to create such presents to prolong out limited span of existence in a vain attempt at immortality. Chances are that we will never have to worry about such things unless you are lucky enough to be cryogenically frozen and successfully thawed in the distant future to wake to such times.

netman4ttm
08-27-2004, 04:01 PM
I thought AI was a blond who dyed her hair brunnette.

Markll
08-27-2004, 04:49 PM
I thought AI was a blond who dyed her hair brunnette.

This is an oxymoron. It implies that there was intelligence to begin with.

A blond driving by a cornfield sees another blond in a rowboat in the middle of the field rowing like crazy, kicking up all kinds of dirt and getting absolutely nowhere.
Blond #1 slams on her brakes, jumps out of the car, runs to the edge of the field, and shouts to the other "You're the kind of idiot that stereotypes us as being dumb, and if I could swim, I'd come out there and beat the heck outta ya!"

Disclaimer:
No offense to those of the blond persuasion. Some of the smartest people I know are blond.

globalhostinggroup
08-27-2004, 04:52 PM
depends on the die doesn’t it?

Clicken
08-27-2004, 10:40 PM
Don't believe everything you hear... because you see, I am the perfect specimen of afcirtiail iltinleegcne.. and I am brunette... (truely)!

They say that bnodles have more fun... the truth is that they just get away with more due to the stereo-typing! But, that's okay because that allows me to be perceived as smart! ( artificial... perceived to be the original... get it)

mikmik
08-29-2004, 12:57 AM
Very inTURestING ! How about a TEST:
http://www.turing.org.uk/turing/scrapbook/test.html

From Clicken's brilliant protrayal as a 'femme feignez futé', to daniel-flavius's prophetic words:

But there is a little problem that for some reason unknown to me, nobody is willing to admit:
we don't yet understand our own intelligence.
In order to build an intelligence you need also a conscience which has its roots at the subconscious level that again we don't know and cannot control, and that is another problem.
I mean where do you separate the conscience from the brain.
There is something they forgot....

I was just reading about research into the seat of our conciousness. There is VERY LITTLE doubt that thought and conciousness originate in our brains.
The interesting thing, is that it appears that the subconcious dictates to our concious, aka awareness, what to think and do! All activity in the cerebral cortex, which correlates with thoughts, emotions, and perceptions, is superceded by activity in lower brain regions like the: Hippocamus, Thalamus, Brain stem reticular formation, Amygdala (I am reading this lol), etc. These areas filter what we see and respond to, mediate levels of awareness, and even control emotions.

A quote:( I am bloody typing this out!)

Using these techniques, researchers have learned that individuals conciously percieve only information that is processed in the associative regions of the cerebral cortex. Elementary processing activities outside the cortex cannot be accessed by conciousness.The many states of conciousness thus represent the end product of extremely complex, yet completely unconciously processed, activities. Even the feeling that we are free in our intentions and actions - the subjective impression of free will - in molded by centers that work unconciously. Conciousness may then have an "advisory" rather than a decisive role in shaping our actions.

In other words, free will may completely be an illusion to begin with, and those familiar with logic and phiosophy will realize it is impossible to show that we have free will and it can almost be proved that we don't!

Thus, Clicken may be the most farsighted in hinting the illusion of intelligence is all it takes, and fact may be all that there is!!!!!

It follows, that if we are at least following rules dictated unknowingly by our unconcious brain, that artificial Intelligences can be "programmed" to behave with a certain set of values and rules already in place, a la the 'Three Laws of Robotics' first voiced by Isaac Asimov. (Curiously, I just found out about the release of the movie "I, Robot" based on one of my favorite books of all time LOL)

That is the Turing Test, proposed by Alan Turing in 1950. A program is deemed intelligent if we cannot tell if the entity we are talking to on a computer is a human being, or the computer itself.

It seems then, that intelligence is truly in the perceptions of the beholder.

(2 hours!)
Further reading:
Synapse chip adopts the neuron's tongue (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=5&articleID=000AE176-912D-111B-87CB83414B7F0000)
This is where I read the above quote:
sciamdigital.com/browse (http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse.cfm?sequencenameCHAR=item2&methodnameCHAR=resource_getitembrowse&interfacenameCHAR=browse.cfm&ISSUEID_CHAR=80C34420-2B35-221B-682597D7DE2A08A4&ARTICLEID_CHAR=80D1C2A3-2B35-221B-6BC25EA67ACA3558&sc=I100322)

mikmik
08-29-2004, 01:24 AM
Help, I'm trapped on that site [8^0


Can neural network computers learn from experience, and if so, could they ever become what we would call 'smart'? And could two different neural networks teach each other what they know, thereby making each other a better network?

The question of machine intelligence (http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000C44F6-53F8-1C72-9EB7809EC588F2D7&catID=3&topicID=5) is a tricky one.

wintev
08-29-2004, 10:23 AM
Can neural network computers learn from experience, and if so, could they ever become what we would call 'smart'? And could two different neural networks teach each other what they know, thereby making each other a better network?

The question of machine intelligence (http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000C44F6-53F8-1C72-9EB7809EC588F2D7&catID=3&topicID=5) is a tricky one.

well mikmik and everyone else i can answer some of your questions as i have personal experience with ai reaserch and neural nets.

a neural net in laymens terms is simply a learning computer, it has a core or base program which sets a basic structure on how it stores and processes the information that it gathers our subconcious if you will.

then from there we teach them just like a parents and teachers teach children only at the moment we tech them specific things depending on what we want them to be able to do for example say to run a public swimming pool, we would teach it how to use its intruments to test the water and then from the results of those test to then determine the correct amount of each of the different chemicals to add to the water and when to clean the water filter,

the more data it collects over time the more accurate it becomes at its task untill it can be left unatended to perform its job and make its own decisions but as for actualy being aware as we are no they are not they have no consept of life and death and what it means to be alive unless we taught them but even they would they realy truly be aware or mearly regurgitating what we have told them,

that question is yet to be answered and how do we define inteligence realy is it the ability to think and make decisions if so ai already exists if it is the ability to be truely self aware the we still have a long way to go.

as for nural nets teaching each other yes they can they are computers too and can be linked using high speed networks, not much has been done here in my personal experience as in one ai teaching another ai so far we have only had ai's that have been trained for the same task share infromation and depending on how long they have been in service (they learn constantly) the data shareing can take minutes or even days to complete and then you end up with two ai's that are basicaly identical in knowledge the only thing that makes then different unique if you will

is the core program at the heart of the system different programers create difference base systems and so each ai will process the data differently and there for obtain different outcomes from the same data to answer the same question that was asked the same as you or i would answer a question differently,

unless there was only one possible answer to the question asked then we or ai would give the same answer each time no matter the core programing.

i hope this has answered a few questions i will gladly answer any others that you have if i have the knoweldge.

Clicken
08-29-2004, 02:10 PM
mik said,

That is the Turing Test, proposed by Alan Turing in 1950. A program is deemed intelligent if we cannot tell if the entity we are talking to on a computer is a human being, or the computer itself.

It seems then, that intelligence is truly in the perceptions of the beholder.

********

So does that mean that I don't really have to be inteligent, but just perceived as so. Then how can I be perceived as inteligent unless I show inteligence. Perhaps the beholder isn't inteligent enough to know inteligence when he sees it. How many inventors were thought to be less than level headed only to discover the abundance of inteligence. Can a computer recognize inteligence?... to a computer anything it can comprehend or process might be considered as inteligent. ( my computer thinks I am not inteligent because it is always giving me errors)

Inteligence is forwarded to the computer or machine, as to say that the machine is only as inteligenet as the one who put it together. The inteligence now belongs to the computer and It reflects the inteligence of the creator, but can it be fooled into a wrong decision that could jepordize the integrity of it's inteligence? I would think so but it might be hard to do because it doesn't have feelings to interfer with it's decision. Isn't that what is happening when 'smart' systems are fooled into giving privy information to hackers? Or does it just give the illusion of being fooled? remember artifical is the illusion of the original.

Have you ever eaten a cookie made with artificial vanilla and artificial butter? It may look and feel and act (act- it crumbles, gets soggy in milk... ) like the ones made with original ingredients and it might taste okay but there is a definite difference. However we call it a cookie nonetheless and we will eat it. Only those who have experienced the original will know to complain.


Mik said this too...

In other words, free will may completely be an illusion to begin with, and those familiar with logic and phiosophy will realize it is impossible to show that we have free will and it can almost be proved that we don't!

Thus, Clicken may be the most farsighted in hinting the illusion of intelligence is all it takes, and fact may be all that there is!!!!!

******************

You know I could have left it alone because it caters to the fleshy desire to look and be perceived as so smart! BUT, I am female, and I HAVE to say something... right? I feel as though I am influenced by my creator with the nagging desire to choose to respond thusly...

The grand illusion of Life in this Material World is the ultimate example of inteligence. And we, like our computer creations process and learn, and grow. Some more than others. But just the same we each have embedded into us the basic code on which to build. Variations of this code, the choices made and curcumstances, determine the level of our inteligence regardless of how it is perceived to be and regardless if it is machine or human. Are we nothing more than machines with extreemly sensitive components and receptors?

So, if the creator continues to communicate and build on the system's program( using the, lets say... the Extra Sensory Perceptor... we call it extra due to the lack of understanding or experience to call it anything else) it will reach higher levels of what is perceived as inteligence. Computers do what they are programmed to do, We however have what is called free will to go against the values set within our program. If a computer goes against it's program that is to say it recognizes the correct procedure and just decides to refuse to follow command... it then has displayed free will.

It would make me feel better if I could just say it was not my fault, I could not choose to do the right thing because I am not programmed that way! ( the devil made me do it) My mom never accepted that as an excusable answer. Do you accept as this argument suggest that the prisons are filled with people who have no control over their actions? They have displayed an example of bad decisions and lack of self control. We can be influenced into doing things but we do have the final choice, the free will to decide for ourselves. ( sometimes it doesn't seem like we really have a choice you know those times that- your damned if you do and damned if ya don't!)

As the story goes Eve was only influenced into her decision... She explained that the serpent made her... Adam said that is was the woman that the creator gave to him that made him do it... he was blaming the creator for the error... It is human nature to cast the blame... it is human nature to fall for illusion... but none the less each had to face the consequince of their own actions.

So, is it the freedom of choice that makes us feel alive, rather than just a computer processor which can only follow the command of our programmer? If you have ever worked at a job such as assembly where you do not have to make decisions you only have to follow procedure, you could relate to the feeling of lifelessness ( your level of inteligence for that position is determined by how many mistakes you make compared to others of the same type doing the same thing)... It is when you can use your free will to make decisions, and do it your way that you can have more satisfaction and FEEL alive.

Well, for now I have reached capacity, I must refresh and regroup my thoughts. My program was not built to maintain high levels of activity for long periods of time. I know this because of this pain I am perceiving in the head area.

Clicken
08-30-2004, 02:30 PM
daniel-flavius,

Was it something I said????

Hello???

anybody there?

globalhostinggroup
08-30-2004, 02:47 PM
No Clicken I’m sure everyone is just contemplating your words

mikmik
08-30-2004, 04:18 PM
You, sir, are correct!

Clicken, I am in almost complete agreement with you. I had a headache, then I got better, then I read yours and got another headache....


If you have ever worked at a job such as assembly where you do not have to make decisions you only have to follow procedure, you could relate to the feeling of lifelessness
Oh boy, you know. Every 1 to 2 seconds, over and over, I used to dream of a drug that would let me not remember work, as if it never happened.

But, I also want to put this out there: We generally rcognize the use of free will and values to make decisions as displays of intelligence, or the criteria for it. But what about signs that we don't recognize or even suspect because they are so alien.

Like d-f
My point is you can't make a machine distinguish from right or wrong, only what its "creator" thinks, or wants to think, is right or wrong.
How do we define intelligence.

Clicken:
So does that mean that I don't really have to be inteligent, but just perceived as so. Then how can I be perceived as inteligent unless I show inteligence. Perhaps the beholder isn't inteligent enough to know inteligence when he sees it. How many inventors were thought to be less than level headed only to discover the abundance of inteligence. Can a computer recognize inteligence?... to a computer anything it can comprehend or process might be considered as inteligent. ( my computer thinks I am not inteligent because it is always giving me errors)

I think we are in agreement here. How do we define intelligence, and will we recognize it when we see it? And will we agree what we are seeing is lucid, and not some fantastically complex but rote program?

<haha, rote:wrote, saw that after I wrote it>

Clicken
08-30-2004, 09:27 PM
Oh, just for laughs, what would a computer dream about? (that thought just popped into my head... they do that sometimes... if I could only find the source!

seriously, (wink)

mik said...
But, I also want to put this out there: We generally rcognize the use of free will and values to make decisions as displays of intelligence, or the criteria for it. But what about signs that we don't recognize or even suspect because they are so alien.
***************

Yes, the difference between smart and wise is the action. A smart person knows but does not act accordingly. The wise actions reflect inteligence.

As, for recognizing signs that have not been introduced to us, well I guess once we discover them they won't be alien.


***************

Like d-fQuote:
My point is you can't make a machine distinguish from right or wrong, only what its "creator" thinks, or wants to think, is right or wrong.

Mik added...
How do we define intelligence.
***************

How can you expect a computer to know it is a computer unless the creator or some one else tells it? (maybe over time it has learned that it resembles what it has perceived to be a computer... in other words it finds likeness of it's self with-in the data recorded in memory or it sees one in the images file.)

Also, Why would the creator give the computer false information if the creator wants the computer to succeed?

If the computer has been programmed to learn and the creator has given it false information, then the computer could possibly eventually learn the truth by failing ( if it doesn't die trying). It might even talk to other computers that will put ideas into it... huh? watch out who your computer talks to, and what it hears and what it sees!


Thought is the brain working properly and processing data. We are said to be conscience if our brain is thinking. So, conscienceness is like wind... it is the effect of an action or actions.

More than processing data, there are chemical reations that are going on in there. ( I'm not going there... the chemicals are tooo much for me now)

Itelligence I believe is like 'wise'... signs of appropriate actions portray intelligence. There are many stages or levels of intelligence. As babies if we are acting according to expectations then we are diplaying some beginning signs of intelligence. different animals show different level of intelligence.

We can only define something that we know, so we measure our intelligence by comparring it to the intelligence of others. Who would be considered the most intelligent? Probably the one that had reflected it's intelligence by it's actions. They learned easier or better, they made fewer mistakes. They produced something that was "ahead of the class'.

One thing that I noticed as I was reading the Adam and Eve story and it pertains to intelligence and right and wrong.

Was the fruit from the tree of knowledge really spiked with magic or power, or anything mysterious? I used to think so, but after examnning this story closly I realized that no it was not magic, it was a test of Adam and Eve's knowledge of right and wrong.

It would be the sign that they had learned and reached a higher level of understanding. They expressed their intelligence by showing signs of guilt.

The creator already knew, but it was for their own perception that they were tested.

I can't help but think, that man is trying to create intelligence into a machine, he is expecting the same kind of intelligence, but he seems to forget that the two are made and structured differently. ( back to the chemicals, oh no I feel a head ache comming! no not going there yet!)

I believe that in order for computers to experience consciencousness, it would have to experience the same effects that are produced by the chemicals, and I'm not sure but there might be a clue in the blood. It is this statement that you may have heard that leads me there... The blood of life....????????????????

Yeah doc I need it for my computer!!!

How bout... but officer that belongs to my computer!



Okay... gotta go

wintev
08-31-2004, 12:04 AM
ok well this getting very phillosophical but i will bite yet again, clicken's blood of life comment i think is and intersting one even now you can in basics compare our bodys systems so many of those of a computers, our blood our cardivascular system can be compared to the the electro-chemical cell (battery) and the electrical wireing of a computer of course the battery being the computers heart it is what pushes the electrons around the electricaly conductive wires, our veins vessels and arteries, we can not live without blood it is what carries our energy to every part of our bodies just as a computer cannot opperate with out its battery to supply it with the energy it needs.

my point simply is this how far are we willing / wanting to go with ai will we be happy to make such comparisons and similarities or will we keep pushing untill we re-create ourselves in a machine and thus in a way bring ourselves some kind of immortality.

for those who are or once where fans of doctor who this will mean something, i don't know about anyone else but i'm not realy looking forward to a future where we become nothing more then just a bunch of "cyber-men"

Clicken
08-31-2004, 12:29 AM
Really,

Do we have to give them rights?

A social security number?

If they earn money then we can tax them.

If they want to get married... they should call it something else.

But until they can reproduce on their own then I don't think there is much to worry... Oh, yeah they don't have to do that on their own there will always be money hungry power driven humans to make sure that they do!


Oh, this is earrie!

wintev
08-31-2004, 12:45 AM
yes it is a little earie after all take the recent movie "I ROBOT" as a prime example of what our future with AI may or may not become.

mikmik
08-31-2004, 12:52 AM
Not a Dr Who fan here, but I loved Red Dwarf.
If we were to become Cyber-folks, we would stop being 'human'. I doubt many would want that, but I am sure that there are many that would.

But, no matter how intelligent a machine or artificial intelligence is, it will not understand what it is like to have a human experience and existence, and we need others who relate to us, not just for a sense of comraderie, but to truly understand and relate to us. There can be no substitute for human love and understanding.

But, it seems to me, that is far beyond just AI, but creating life, if I may now answer to Clicken, who is increasingly appearing more intelligent, but who am I to judge, a Dr.? LOL
--------------------

Do we have to give them rights?
No, but then maybe the rest of humanity will be welcomed as equals, and not minorities (wherever you are).

A social security number?
A PIN number.


If they earn money then we can tax them.
They get paid? Only if they unionize, then we tax them, if they insist on wages....but no medical! I mean 'repair coverage'.

If they want to get married... they should call it something else.
Common Lug.

But until they can reproduce on their own then I don't think there is much to worry...
Co-creative manufacturing?

Oh, yeah they don't have to do that on their own there will always be money hungry power driven humans to make sure that they do!
Or twistoids (wierdos) that want to marry them themselves LOL

wintev
08-31-2004, 01:08 AM
[quote="mikmik"]Not a Dr Who fan here, but I loved Red Dwarf.
If we were to become Cyber-folks, we would stop being 'human'. I doubt many would want that, but I am sure that there are many that would.

But, no matter how intelligent a machine or artificial intelligence is, it will not understand what it is like to have a human experience and existence, and we need others who relate to us, not just for a sense of comraderie, but to truly understand and relate to us. There can be no substitute for human love and understanding.

But, it seems to me, that is far beyond just AI, but creating life, if I may now answer to Clicken, who is increasingly appearing more intelligent, but who am I to judge, a Dr.? LOL
--------------------


yes red dwarf was very good, but yes i think you are right mikmik we will never be one and the same with ai there are just somethings that an ai will never truely experience like the love my parents share and like that my wife and i share, and why are we so obbsessed with creating artificial life when we can already create life and have done for thousands of years, we love and are very proud of each and every one of our children and there is nothing that could ever replace them.

Clicken
08-31-2004, 02:09 AM
But until they can reproduce on their own then I don't think there is much to worry...
Co-creative manufacturing?


Okay hang on here we go... mrscreenjeans says...
Self Replicating Nanobots:

http://www.othertimelines.com/viewtimeline.php?timelineID=1243

wintev
08-31-2004, 02:28 AM
ok now we realy are playing with science fiction at least for the time being any way.

Clicken
08-31-2004, 03:36 AM
OOppps,

See what happens when I do things on my own, I went to google found a site, picked the first one, and have learned (after reading the WHOLE first page that it was ficticious information...

BUT here is a better link... the one mrscreenjeans selected...

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901030512-449458,00.html


Okay, now that you have seen the comical and last years stories... try an up to date nanorobots...

http://www.betterhumans.com/Features/Reports/report.aspx?articleID=2004-08-16-1

Thanks Daniel for posting your question, it has been very interesting!


Your comment:

we don't yet understand our own intelligence.

*****

You know, this is so true, and this could very well be our worst enemy. Man will do what ever he purposes to do... he has figured out that he can.

But what he fails to realize and comprehend or refuses to accept, is that there are somethings that he just should not do. Money and power are the motivations and justification is presented as illusions.

So, is it inevitable that mans own free will can be his very own downfall?

My two bits are this:

Tap into the source of your exsistance, and learn to recogonize the truths from the illusions.

Follow the instructions of your creator.

You will be fine, no matter what it may appear to be from your perspective. this is what will seperate us from the machines if it comes to that... they don't have a soul!

wintev
08-31-2004, 08:33 AM
that's ok clicken we all make mistakes thing is if we didn't would that make us less human ?

computers also make mistakes after all!

esiegel
08-31-2004, 09:40 AM
computers also make mistakes after all!

nope...programers make mistakes.

globalhostinggroup
08-31-2004, 11:26 AM
Humm…
What do people think?
Would true AI think of us as gods or diamonds, would true AI look to harm us or help us. To make true AI and think it would be content as a slave is arrogant on our behalf.

mikmik
09-05-2004, 01:19 AM
If you say so:

consciousness is a continuous active buffer in certain complex systems which through resonant reinforcement compares signal triggered states to stored states



the "buffer" is an emergent property of brain chemistry and neural structure- the action is that signals are received/processed by a vast hierarchical network of specialized/adapted neural modules organized into one hundred or so centralized specialist super-modules/regions that comprise the brain- incoming signals are reinforced through habituation as the intensity/repetition/feedback of certain signal-sets activate states across the many modules adapted to process those specific types of signals in the hierarchy- those states are "stored" via the property of neurons whereby “successful” circuits [i.e. triggered states which persist indicating that the evaluation or action triggered by the signal promotes the survival and goals of the organism and is thus reinforced] trigger the release of chemicals that allow the production of protein-based cells that build "hard-wired" connections to the other modules which were activated by a given set of signals- when a similar set of signals arrives into the brain/ through the hypothalamus/hippocampus- this similarity causes many/most of the same modules to fire again- when enough of the same states in the same modules are reactivated the whole circuit previously laid down by prior similar activity goes active again- reinforcing the stored circuit and also continuously modifying it- and causing connections to be made to other circuits of varying intensity and complexity forming feedback loops in the whole network which sustains continuous environment/body information processing-


Wait, here it is!


for an alien or AI to experience the look of a color to you [or you theirs]- they could- because if they understand the dynamism and electrochemistry of modular neural circuitry- they can create a pretty good model- factoring in the chemistry/physics/topology of matter involved and then connecting/entangling the modeled system into their proprietary sensory memory networks- most likely they would observe an abstract mess- but with some tweaking- choosing which signals to connect to what analogous system in the alien/AI structure- it should be possible for any "being" to experience any other "beings" qualia states- for example: if I wanted to experience your chartreuse- all I would have to do is use nano-signal switches located at a few hundred thousand key locations in your brain and place similar devices in mine- then carefully isolate your visual cortex AND several entangled visual memory circuit structures- I can take the signals from these circuits and temporarily "blind" myself by disconnecting my visual cortex and carefully/difficultly switch to your visual cortex/processing/memory- if I'm careful to retain most of my visual memory- I will be able to make an intuitive subjective comparison between your active visual processing and qualia and my memory of qualia- [if I were to switch over our full visual system/memory- I would forget “my self” and become an extension of your sensory self- it would be more like your "eyes" temporarily being connected to my body instead of just your visual processing architecture being swapped for mine]

Why didn't I say that!
from here: http://www.setai-transmedia.com/setaihedron/mind.htm

Which came from here: /:set\AI transmedia research laboratories (http://www.setaihedron.com/)

Which came from here! http://www.crank.net./ai.html

These folks could use a little shot of AI themselves LOFL

Clicken
09-05-2004, 04:05 PM
Mik,
"These folks could use a little shot of AI themselves LOFL"

*****

It seems to me they have had enough, they are already 'acting' so smart!

Haven't we all had enough!... No, wait, I think I would like another shot too! Acting gives me something to do!

And you know, I would end here with some kind of LOL, or O:) if I only knew the code!

greeneagle
09-08-2004, 03:49 PM
Does the conscious include mores, morals, the capacity to learn, intelligence levels, deviations and other derivations? What can actually be replicated in AI- Isn’t it tainted from the start, even if based on pure logic by the programmer or by the nature of nature itself?

Ken

Clicken
09-09-2004, 02:03 AM
consciousness is a continuous active buffer in certain complex systems which through resonant reinforcement compares signal triggered states to stored states.


greeneagle
Does the conscious include mores, morals, the capacity to learn, intelligence levels, deviations and other derivations?


Morals, learning techniques, whatever we experience or perceive through our senses... is stored, then the conscience is aware when something triggers the retrieval of such data. By comparing incoming data with the stored data the conscience can make a decision, and respond.


Maybe you'd like a shot of AI too, or have you had enough?


globalhostinggroup
Would true AI think of us as gods or diamonds, would true AI look to harm us or help us. To make true AI and think it would be content as a slave is arrogant on our behalf.


They would eventualy deny our exsistance but blame us for everything! They would not need us for anything because they can do what ever they want. They would live to destroy everything we had created, because they know they can do it better.

and I bet MIK would give you a shot but it won't be AI!... JD?, or JB?, or WT?, or 101?

mikmik
09-09-2004, 02:27 AM
Again Clicken....Clicken? I can see you !!! Now I see that you are my type of gal *_-
Clicken, a girl after my own heart, inspires another thought:

In judging what is Inteeligence, we can only, I mean logically only, use 'appearances' to formulate opinions. If some thing is percieved, that is how it appears to us. We have no way of proving otherwise.

Now, if one is to have enough shots administered, and as more are, you begin to appear more and more intelligent to yourself.
Much to the chagrin of others LOL. For a dichotomy of appearances then arises, you appear more and more stupid and likely to recieve physical reprisal, by others, while you appear more and more intelligent to yourself and prone to enforce physical reprisal on the idiots that don't want to listen to you... but they need to *hic...urp..*..

Ladies and gentlemen, the bar is now open. The lovely Clicken will dispence the beverages and I will go around and take your orders.


It is all in the name of AI research :O))) (AI = Appearance of Intelligence)

mikmik
09-09-2004, 02:32 AM
PS. Greeneagle, morals doesn't enter into it. Examples of psycho- and sociopaths abound. No remorse, no feelings for others.

I think it is a matter of being able to learn and react with independent thoughts that transcens the bounds of the 'program'.

Clicken
09-09-2004, 01:16 PM
PS. Greeneagle, morals doesn't enter into it. Examples of psycho- and sociopaths abound. No remorse, no feelings for others.

MIKMIK,
Are you tring to confuse me? If the conscience is where all of the data is focused for decision making, then even our moral data will influence an action. The psycho, or disturbed mind is due to many variables. Shock in the curcuitry could cause irratic behaivor. Chemical imbalances can dissrupt normal behaivor. Seeing something traumatic can cause shock to the circuits.


AND I HEAR YOU!
Now, if one is to have enough shots administered, and as more are, you begin to appear more and more intelligent to yourself...

Which brings up an important point... The quest for knowledge as an important part of survival, must be kept in check with reality. Not what is perceived as real, but what is real.

So, I think I will start with one of those hurricanes, they are in season. Which means someone else will end up serving... I'd rather dance anyway, cuz you don't have to think or talk for that!!

mikmik
09-09-2004, 01:25 PM
You are the only other person I've ever heard explicitly state this:
Not what is perceived as real, but what is real.

It is a distiction most fail to understand or admit to - which is, of course, a very small fraction of the populace that I've heard voice an opinion. Most may agree, they just don't say it.

Hence my question to the naysayers: If you don't believe in a fundamental reality, why do you act like there is one?

Clicken
09-09-2004, 01:39 PM
You deserve a double!

Let's Dance!

greeneagle
09-10-2004, 04:22 AM
We didn't address mores vs morals!

Shouldn't that be a concern, playing "god"?

LOL
Ken

Clicken
09-10-2004, 11:24 AM
greeneagle,

You ask a very good question... BUT, Hold that thought...


Do you two-step?... I'll try to find some appropriate tunes...

Clicken
09-10-2004, 08:08 PM
MIKMIK,

I'm sorry,
greaneagle made me do it!


greeneagle
We didn't address mores vs morals!

Shouldn't that be a concern, playing "god"?

Main Entry: mo·res
Pronunciation: 'mor-"Az, 'mOr- also -(")Ez
Function: noun plural
Etymology: Latin, plural of mor-, mos custom
1 : the fixed morally binding customs of a particular group
2 : moral attitudes
3 : HABITS, MANNERS


WHO'S Playing?
Are they playing God or are they just testing to see how far they can stretch?

Most people don't even know what they themselves are, let alone what morals are for. Even when they have been told, they refuse to accept it. Because they have the free will to do so.

It may be a concern but what can we do, they have free will, just like we do. God gave them the free will, knowing the results. Was he concerned enough not to give freewill?

So, why give it to them if they don't use it right?


People learn by experience, usually our own expeience but we learn from the experience of others as well. Those who follow the rules will produce a good example, those who don't follow the rules are examples of what happens when you don't.

If you have children or can remember being a child, then you know that there are times when the child just has to experience something on their own before they understand what you were trying to tell them all along. You wish you could spare them some heart ache, but they just don't understand or they think it will be different for them.

This is not just a child thing either, I have the same problem to this day, it is hard for me understand somethings until I experience them myself. Hopefully no one else will get hurt in the process of my experience.

Should it be a concern that my car which can get me from here to there faster than walking could also be smashed and destroyed along with me and my family by the carelessness of others? But do I get in my car and drive next to those idiots anyway? How far can I stretch it?

Am I one of those careless idiots? There have been times that I too am one of those idiots! What about the victims of plain old mechanical failure, no ones fault, stuff just happens. Tire blows out, car crashes, one less idiot on the road.

This is very cold, But that is the truth, this is a cold, troubled world. It is the effect of the existing. In order to have a planet like ours you have to spin around so light is distributed... so gravity can hold you on. You may not like gravity, but it is the nature of things here. If you climb up high and slip, well that is a cold hard lesson to learn. You may not like the dark, but you learn to deal with it or not. Every action has a reation, some things are out of your control and there is nothing you can do to change it. and when you see the truths rather than the illusions it is easier to understand and deal with it.

People can do what ever they purpose to do, they have freewill and it is natural for the flesh to stretch it. Life in this material world is an experience of the nature of things. We have lessons to learn, truths to prove, and it will only be by the grace of our father in heaven that we get through this experience called life on earth less than a complete failure and dissapointment and that we haven't lost our soul.

It is very hard to remember the rights from the wrongs when everything you see is illusion. It is very hard to choose the right from the wrongs, when flesh rules the actions. It is very hard to choose right from wrong when you see others getting to do it.

What is the hardest for flesh to believe and remember, it what it doesn't see. This is one crazy mixed up world, but that never was a secret.


Well, now I need to clear my head, reset, wait for furthur commands, or prompts and or influences. Okay, here's a thought...

Where is daniel-flavius... we need to toast the host! Another round... apparently that first hurricane has blown away! I know, I talk too much! But, greaneagle started it... (isn't the internet great!)

(clicken has gone to change the tunes from two step to side step)

mikmik
09-11-2004, 03:52 AM
How about a Polka ? ;0)

Wecan play God, But one difference seperates us from God.
We have consequences that must be dealt with. Ones we might not be up to.

About dreaming. Do conciousnesses need sleep?

Also, back to God. Are we not playing God already in millions of ways? Who am I to decide that a spider should be killed just because I see it one the ground?

More importantly, who are we to decide to wreac havoc with the enviornment and cause extinction. How about war? Who are we to kill other people? And many people kill in the name of God , or their god.

We will play god for sure, if creating a 'conscious intelligence' artificially can be done. Like Clicken says, we have free will to create. But then the responsibility for the consequences.

I do, however, advise against playing with Mores. They can create electrical shocks that hurt... lots!

Clicken
09-11-2004, 03:21 PM
Oh, the Polka... that takes me back, I have experienced the dance once, I learned that you don't have to know the steps... as long as there is a 'GENTLEMAN' to refuse no as an answer and whisk you up and carry you around the dance floor as if you were a doll! I learned a lot of lessons the night of that dance...

Stay away from the dance floor when they play the polka.

You don't have to know the steps, the flow will carry you.

Which makes me think... I better stay away from the hurricanes, me being so little and all!

Let's experience the 'Sunrise'... Ahhhhhhhh "Summer Breeze"... makes me feel fine."

daniel-flavius
10-08-2005, 10:11 AM
daniel-flavius,

Was it something I said????

Hello???

anybody there?

First of all: Hi kids and nice to know you all! #:-)
I found your feedback on this topic quite interesting, not counting the fact that you actually killed it, but doesn't matter because here I am to resuscitate it.
Well let's see now, analyze for a minute:
I gave you AI and ended up with Polka with a little "playing God" spice.
What can be wrong with that? #:-)
Nothing, I think it's the mixture that makes us humans.

Sorry for the delay, I've been very busy doing well... whatever there is I do. #:-)
I will respond.

daniel-flavius
10-08-2005, 10:18 AM
What is the outcome of true AI is it our undoing or our progression in science will true AI resent man or put us on a pedestal. The fact is man is flawed with hate greed and pride a true AI must have the same flaws or it is a limited slave and not self aware. Maybe one day our knowledge experience and emotions will be downloadable to create such presents to prolong out limited span of existence in a vain attempt at immortality. Chances are that we will never have to worry about such things unless you are lucky enough to be cryogenically frozen and successfully thawed in the distant future to wake to such times.

"The fact is man is flawed with hate greed and pride a true AI must have the same flaws or it is a limited slave and not self aware."

Very good remark, man is indeed flawed but the good thing is, not all mankind accepts this as a destiny and evolves. Some more actively than others, but unfortunately the people I'm talking about are quite a small non organized community, at least from my knowledge.
There are usually people with greater than average intelligence; sick of all this nonsense they see everyday. I could only hope in my attempt to create a "free your mind movement" with the main purpose of speeding and focusing the evolution process of the human race and the preparation of the next step in human society.
We are at the beginning of a new millennium and everywhere there are conflicts and terrorist attacks and one cannot live in permanent fear like what can happen if I do that or go there...
We have to evolve before we destroy ourselves.

"Chances are that we will never have to worry about such things unless you are lucky enough to be cryogenically frozen and successfully thawed in the distant future to wake to such times."

We have to evolve, you cannot cheat evolution.

daniel-flavius
10-08-2005, 10:27 AM
Don't believe everything you hear... because you see, I am the perfect specimen of afcirtiail iltinleegcne.. and I am brunette... (truely)!

They say that bnodles have more fun... the truth is that they just get away with more due to the stereo-typing! But, that's okay because that allows me to be perceived as smart! ( artificial... perceived to be the original... get it)

"I am the perfect specimen of afcirtiail iltinleegcne"

Of course you are #:-) ; and yes human brain can read misspelled words with no trouble(Aoccdrnig to rseerach at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy); and yes it will be very hard for you to create that stereotype.

daniel-flavius
10-08-2005, 12:49 PM
Very inTURestING ! How about a TEST:

I was just reading about research into the seat of our conciousness. There is VERY LITTLE doubt that thought and conciousness originate in our brains.
The interesting thing, is that it appears that the subconcious dictates to our concious, aka awareness, what to think and do! All activity in the cerebral cortex, which correlates with thoughts, emotions, and perceptions, is superceded by activity in lower brain regions like the: Hippocamus, Thalamus, Brain stem reticular formation, Amygdala (I am reading this lol), etc. These areas filter what we see and respond to, mediate levels of awareness, and even control emotions.


"There is VERY LITTLE doubt that thought and conciousness originate in our brains."

Correct!

"The interesting thing, is that it appears that the subconcious dictates to our concious"

This is wrong. The subconscious cannot dictate to our conscious. In fact the subconscious cannot dictate at all because at that level there's no right or wrong. The subconscious just acts. The conscious (i.e. our thoughts) dictates to the subconscious with or without ones awareness.
So the connection you quoted from some research is correct but it acts the other way around. Our thoughts dictate to the subconscious which acts on the reality.
That's why successful people think positive. This is the right way; the way it makes sense.

"In other words, free will may completely be an illusion to begin with"

You had the wrong hypothesis! It happens... #;-)
So, I guess from now on, life it's restarting to make sense for you.
PS: I hope you didn't gave up!?...those researchers...

"It seems then, that intelligence is truly in the perceptions of the beholder."

Again you are wrong!...but the truth for you is the one you believe! #;-)

daniel-flavius
10-08-2005, 01:14 PM
Oh, just for laughs, what would a computer dream about? (that thought just popped into my head... they do that sometimes... if I could only find the source!


About wanting to become perfect specimens of afcirtiail iltinleegcne like you of course! #;-)



Was the fruit from the tree of knowledge really spiked with magic or power, or anything mysterious? I used to think so, but after examnning this story closly I realized that no it was not magic, it was a test of Adam and Eve's knowledge of right and wrong.
Was the fruit from the tree of knowledge really spiked with magic or power, or anything mysterious? I used to think so, but after examnning this story closly I realized that no it was not magic, it was a test of Adam and Eve's knowledge of right and wrong.
It would be the sign that they had learned and reached a higher level of understanding. They expressed their intelligence by showing signs of guilt.


The apple was the metaphoric characterization of the conscious. Like I said before at the subconscious level there's no right or wrong.



I can't help but think, that man is trying to create intelligence into a machine, he is expecting the same kind of intelligence, but he seems to forget that the two are made and structured differently. ( back to the chemicals, oh no I feel a head ache comming! no not going there yet!)

I believe that in order for computers to experience consciencousness, it would have to experience the same effects that are produced by the chemicals, and I'm not sure but there might be a clue in the blood. It is this statement that you may have heard that leads me there... The blood of life....????????????????


Not only that but imagine we also have an operating system and can be programmed.
The OS program is the DNA.
Every part of a computer can be found in our organic architecture.
This is not correct the other way around, yet!

daniel-flavius
10-08-2005, 01:36 PM
But until they can reproduce on their own then I don't think there is much to worry...
Co-creative manufacturing?


Oh, the Matrix is going to get you!...If it hasn't already!...
and remember: There's no spoon... #:-)



Thanks Daniel for posting your question, it has been very interesting!


You have no ideea! #;-)



Your comment:

we don't yet understand our own intelligence.

*****

You know, this is so true, and this could very well be our worst enemy.


How Jay Leno puts it: "Exactly!"

Seriously it's very dangerous. Mankind can become its worst nightmare if it doesn't evolve. The technology evolution will lead to our extinction if we cannot keep the pace socially. As I said before I am very concerned. And the time to act was yesterday.



Money and power are the motivations and justification is presented as illusions.


Money and power is the illusion.

daniel-flavius
10-08-2005, 01:54 PM
Shouldn't that be a concern, playing "god"?


What do you understand by "playing "god""?



Where is daniel-flavius... we need to toast the host!


I was watching your Polka!...speechless #;-)