Google Haters Unite! [Archive]

incrediblehelp

06-12-2006, 10:58 PM

I know I have created a few article based threads today, but here is another. I found good one for all those Google bashers out there. If your a true Google hater you saw the Motley Fool article last week, Friday.

How Google Is Killing the Internet By Seth Jayson (http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2006/commentary06060927.htm?ref=foolwatch)

I am little late on some of this news because I let my inbox got out of control last week, but I am caching up tonight and finding some good stuff.

Anyways the recently posted on my blog (http://www.jaankanellis.com/wow-google-insiders-say-i-want-cash-now/) about enormous insider selling at Google of late. Seth starts the article by pointing this out:

insiders are continuing to drop shares on the public at a rate that boggles the mind. Here's just a brief peek at the latest tallies.

I bring it up only because I occasionally entertain the thought that Google has, in fact, destroyed the Internet. Well, not the physical Internet, mind you. Just the whole "looking for data" part of it that's key to Google's (alleged) information-based mission. The part that's held the key (so far) to its financial success.

It is so good to hear more traditional press learning of the pain we all feel with the SERPs at Google, Yahoo and MSN. I am not singling out Google here at all, it is obvious that you don't have to look to far to find examples of crap SERP's on all three and those that think one SE SERPS are better than the other have no rational way to prove it. Depending on the business your in, you SPAM findings will vary, but the fact is it is out there for all three.

Whether or not you believe that the junk sites out there peddling AdSense ads are honest commerce or capitalizing on large-scale click fraud, there's little doubt in my mind that we've got Google to thank for it.

Well no sh*t Sherlock. Why doesn't Google take a stronger stance on who actually uses AdSense on their websites is by far the biggest question I have. Doing this would eliminate so many issues that have cropped up in the past 3 years it is ridiculous.

So why doesn't Google do more to put the brakes on this problem? Interesting question, because it makes a couple of assumptions that I find faulty.

The first is that Google can stop it. I don't buy that. I think when you pit a few hundred Google Smarty Pantses -- who are getting fat on stock options and gourmet meals at the Big Goo campus -- against many thousand enterprising schemers on the Internet, the battle will go to those hungry schemers every time.

LOL, of course and Google gives schemers the key to success. Take away this key now!. Audit AdSense members/users NOW! Sure they say they do and I have even had one of my websites get a "request to remove AdSense" from Google and I did, but this is not happening enough.

That's not much of a concern for the press out there, which is blissfully unaware of its prime position as Most Likely to Be Head Dupe in Google's hype machine. All the newsroom knows is that Google is prime headline fodder, and more importantly, it's not Microsoft, so everything it does must be worthy of ink.

And this is problem. Your guess is good as mine as to why other search engines don't attack the integrity of AdSense more.

greeneagle

06-13-2006, 04:09 AM

Good article, Jaan.

Nice catch.

That is some awfully heavy insider trading.

Ken

pemburung

06-13-2006, 10:34 AM

I've been amused for quite a while that G (and others) tell us that they are pushed for space (or not, depends on who you decide to believe at G), and we read justifications on forums for not indexing everything due to this, when some decent percentage of the pages that cause the overload are crappy rubbish serving only to generate adsense and similar revenue. Get rid of them and there'd probably be room for all the real pages currently being dropped.

incrediblehelp

06-13-2006, 10:34 AM

Speaking of comparing search relevancy Aaron at SEObook (http://www.seobook.com/relevancy/) has great article on it everyone should check out.

NameCritic

06-13-2006, 06:10 PM

due to sucking at link analysis they place too much weight on the page content

Author was talking about MSN there. Uh, what's wrong with looking at the page's content? I would think google needs more of that.

Talking about google,
heavily biases search results toward informational resources

He forgot to mention heavily focused on websites that have 0 content and adsense ads and a search box.

pavelhlavsa

06-13-2006, 07:19 PM

Google is about money, any money any way. Google became a vehement, bit like Microsoft and it has to serve itself to stay alive. No matter what the methods are. It will do its best to stay within the law, but just to satisfy the law. No care for fairness and justice. Like they say; power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Now let’s have a look, did we make Google what it is today? I think so. We all guilty of been googlists. Happy googling guys.
Paul

A. Smith

06-13-2006, 11:14 PM

Paul,
That's so funny, the whole time I was reading this thread, I was thinking of Microsoft! Same problem! I'd love to run Linux, but then so many things are for Windows platform (especially the kids' games), that you're kind of stuck with it.

jackson992

06-14-2006, 02:54 AM

ctabuk

06-14-2006, 05:21 AM

Speaking of comparing search relevancy Aaron at SEObook (http://www.seobook.com/relevancy/) has great article on it everyone should check out.

Many, many thanks Jaan

Grokodile

06-14-2006, 04:30 PM

I was actually blathering about a similar issue on a blog of mine.

I suspect the problem is that with the ability to monetize traffic so readily apparent, and so easy, we have millions of people worldwide that are producing what I'm calling faux content.

These people don't care about the reader, they don't care about the content, they care only about one thing. Free traffic on SERPs. With that free traffic they can turn a buck by pushing users into Adsense ads.

Of course, since we all know how the search engines work, and they've published most of their algorithms, the hordes of money grubbing, lazy, no-content producing, crappy article republishing scam site owners have mushroomed.

If the current dinosaurs don't figure it out, some upstart will come along with much better and harder to fake quality metrics that will again gather the interest of the most users, stealing traffic from Google, MSN and Yahoo.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, but hey, we all get to have one. By the way, I'm in no way a Google hater, but I do see some worrying trends in the Internet industry.

Tubby

06-15-2006, 05:41 AM

Grokodile; Quote
'Of course, since we all know how the search engines work, and they've published most of their algorithms, the hordes of money grubbing, lazy, no-content producing, crappy article republishing scam site owners have mushroomed.'

I liked that sentence Grokodile, I highlighted the bit I liked most.
I use adsense, But I feel I mix good content with money grabbing and do try to get the right balance.. Although I do try to look after my users.
I am not realy a google hater, I am just someone who sees google more as a pay per click site lately.
I see an opening gap between sites that are concentrating on getting traffic, and sites that "Sell" a product. . I have noted a number of site placed well down below the 5th page results outselling the high flyers for incoming traffic.
Buyers are not silly, the ability to make the consumer part with a hard earned $ is more than just getting oodles of traffic. There are a growing number of searchers that do eventually find what they are looking for. . A growing percentage of these are not very pleased at the indirect route. they find themselves travelling.

The part that interest me most is that we all tend to "Copy" the most successful . . The TRAP is,we tend to copy the traffic producers, the sites at no 1. This is fine. .. But the site at no 1 is often not the site selling the most. . We get very few statistics on the sites that sell the most, so immitation is restricted to those getting traffic.

I think A good question for a new thread should be are we immitating the wrong web sites?
and then blaming Google?

greeneagle

06-15-2006, 06:02 AM

I have hesitated for 2 days, bringing up the fact that www.jux2.com is IMO one of the best metasearch tools on the net for comparative analsys between the top 3 SEs.

Some people do not like them because there are slight discrepancies with where the SEs actually rank at any given "Now". That is because they lag just a little behind, since the major SEs don't usually provide "real time" data to the secondary's a great deal of the time.

This has another advantage though. If you squint your eyes just right, you can observe and do a recent trend analysis on the fly.

It's also an invaluable quick assessment tool for competitive analyses.

Ken

ctabuk

06-15-2006, 06:13 AM

Ken, but even that as interesting as it is, has a hidden agenda - it carries Google PPC results.

greeneagle

06-15-2006, 06:15 AM

ctabuk,

and GOOG doesn't even supply them with "real time" data. But then, is that even possible, considering the enormity of the task? I believe that is one of the defining lines between what we call "Primary" and "Secondary" SEs.

You can click the PPC on any SE Site, if you want, I usually don't. That doesn't negate jux2's usefulness for the purposes I mentiond though.

Ken

Tubby

06-15-2006, 08:19 AM

www.jux2.com - Wow that is one confusing set of results- I just searched for chevrolet parts california
and I got three seperate pages in two results

com/chevy/ #3 on google
com/chevy/ #6 on Yahoo!,
#4 on MSN]

com/california/chev-parts.html #10 on google
com/california/chev-parts.html #4 on Yahoo!]
com/california/ #5 on Yahoo!]

Now nobody needs three(4)results on Yahoo for the same search. So I did a direct search at Yahoo for
chevrolet parts california.

It seems I am in the top ten results 4 times. This does ablolutely nothing for me. I only need one result - Placing the same site (different pages)4 times in the top ten is clearly a boo boo - how hard would it be to just select the most likely page from any given site.

If this result was someone elses site I would not be happy if my site came in a no 15.
Persomally I do not mind this result. But If I were fair minded I think it shows up some serious problems in the whole search business.

Thats a good comparison site Ken. (I just wasted half an hour there) but it does supply a quick comparison. . very handy. .

I did not do the search in google - but the above suggests 2 results. (it is a bit silly not realy getting a good cross selection between them are they)

greeneagle

06-15-2006, 08:32 AM

Tubby,

They list quite differently in SERP order than most of are used to. It's a combinatorial thing. If you list in the top 10 SERP on all 3 top SEs at data time you excell!

A top 2 SE listing in top 3 SEs, even if one is GOOG @#1, you find yourself in near appropriate place down the list.

That makes perfect sense to me!

Ken

Tubby

06-15-2006, 08:50 AM

Ken, Yes. . but!

My users would like it. . It tells them I am working hard to find their parts. But I think it shows up the restricted thinking of the current searches. Its a bit like going to the fairground and finding that all the barrels had the same prizes in them. . Not good.

P.S. and when I do a search on behalf of a user to find a part. I keep bumping into myself. . When I realy want that site that is not getting found
.
A couple of years ago you could type in a part # and find an obscure message on a forum, , or somewhere. All gone Ken. . just primary sites. . it is a big loss..

greeneagle

06-15-2006, 09:02 AM

Tubby,

In all seriousness (this wasn't a frigment of my imagination):

I just rcvd a phone call from a friend down the road. He informed me that he had purchased $20 in Ice Cream products from the "Swan" delivery truck that comes by every 2 weeks or so.

I didn't even know something like that was still available in this day and time... LOL

I told him to make sure that next time around, call me and send him down here. My wife's grandkids could use a little corruption and misguided influence when they come by. That's pretty often, since they live around the corner! OHHHH, I am so looking forward to spoiling some meals and making mom (stepdaughter) mad!!!

Another advantage of living away from "civilization" I guess?

Hope we didn't lose anyone here! (I get castrated for esoteric posts sometimes, but it is a true story on more than one front. Strange how that happens sometimes.)

WOW! - They take credit cards right out of the truck, too!

LOL

Ken

Tubby

06-15-2006, 09:10 AM

Ahh... The milkman, the coalman, and the breadman all had horses when I was a kid. If any other kid in the street scored the droppings. I got a hiding.
Every kid in the neighbourhood was scared of me.

The "Verechio Man" came around with Ice cream on a barttery powered (walk in front) cart. . AHH I loved that Ice cream.

Tubby

06-15-2006, 09:16 AM

we also lost a hell of a lot of small dedicated forums - all in the name of SEO for all the traffic - they just faded away into the mist.

I want Ice cream now Ken! . . The nearest I can find in my cupboard is custard????

greeneagle

06-15-2006, 09:21 AM

Tubby:

If any other kid in the street scored the droppings. I got a hiding.

My chickens and turkeys do a pretty good job of fertilizing my yard since they "free-range".

Last year some long term friends visited a circus and went to the effort to collect elephant dung and bring it to us for our compost bin.

It's a shame we don't seem to know where to look for value much of the time, these days, it seems.

Everybody wants their "ice cream" now. That's at the core of the problem.

Got plenty of ice and rock salt? That's the question... I know you do!

Ken

Tubby

06-15-2006, 09:34 AM

Yes Well, Its late here Ken and I am off to bed. . I am in one of those - I wish the net could have gone the way I thought it would go when I first heard about it. But thats the way things are, survival of the fittest. But now and then when I look at the tree outside my veranda. I see a good few different species of birds throughout the day all picking out what they need. Yes I do get the odd Sulpher Crested Cockatoo. . But just because he is bigger and smarter than the little finches, he doesn't want all the pickings. . Just his fair share.

If Google were sharing out the pickings. there would only be one breed of bird in my tree ...

greeneagle

06-15-2006, 09:38 AM

For me, that would be a boring world, I have 5 breeds of parrots on my front porch and at least 10 breeds of chickens and turkeys.

There's got to be something to live for!

I really do understand the GOOGs current problems and how they extend to public search in general. In a capitalistic reality though....

Ken

Tubby

06-15-2006, 09:53 AM

I am about 55% capitalist Ken. . that my problem
I still dream, wish, regret. . Until of course I am threatened. . then its just a "jump to the right"

G'night Ken

greeneagle

06-15-2006, 10:04 AM

For me, this thread is all about; building blocks, value and time as opposed to buying "potted meat" of the shelf.

Microsoft has built their reputation on tools that have proven time and again to advance "productivity" to the point that I would think that they have had a real influence on US GNP for many years. That's a solid position to go after! In fact it's a damn fortress that no one else has been able to break into. In other terms; Google may be frivolously playing in games where they really don't understand the rules. Surely Microsoft being a more mature company welcomes the demonstrated waste of resources over there!

Capitalism demands that hunters shoot at the moving target of value provision.

If they fail in their position, they get "culled".

Sometimes you have to look for value, though.

My old hens don't lay eggs anymore and they are too old to eat, but they keep fertilizing the yard.

Google could fall into "Old Hen" status if at any time they misjudge the competitive hurdle. But that really goes without saying, right?

It does seem time for the GOOG to make fewer "stumbles" along the path.

Ken

freehits

06-15-2006, 07:36 PM

This thread reads like a MAD LIBS book

"free-range
compost bin
Ice cream
rock salt
Sulpher Crested Cockatoo
breeds of parrots
potted meat
Old Hen
chickens and turkeys
elephant dung
custard
The milkman
the coalman
the breadman
Swan delivery truck"

06-16-2006, 01:35 AM

I did get kinda lost there for a few minutes freehits...lol...good one!

Jaan - I believe Google would write AdSense code to put on the your backside if they could figure out how to do it. It makes me angry to find backlinks with nothing on them but a paragraph of text (related to my search terms) and plastered with paid Adwords - everywhere! Some poor "no ranking Joe" is paying for that crap (in most cases)!

One pagers - on up to one I found which was a true labyrinth. Rows and rows of paid Ads (glad I don't use AdWords) with more rows of links. Hmmm...I wondered how they were allowed to put that many on a single page - so reluctantly (I don't click webmsater's ads for the heck of it) I clicked one of the links and found myself on another page like the first one with a different keyword and (repeats and reapeats.....) Only God knows how many thousand pages of links and AdSense ads (looked identical to the other links) there may have been strung out over 1000's of keywords.

I don't have the ability to really express what I was seeing but you guys certainly know what I mean.

I'm a Google lover because they send more traffic and it converts very well - but a HATER - because I've been chasing them for 5 yrs and I'm getting kinda tired of it. In fact I'm exhausted with them.

Ken wrote:

"Microsoft has built their reputation on tools that have proven time and again to advance "productivity" to the point that I would think that they have had a real influence on US GNP for many years. That's a solid position to go after! In fact it's a damn fortress that no one else has been able to break into. In other terms; Google may be frivolously playing in games where they really don't understand the rules. Surely Microsoft being a more mature company welcomes the demonstrated waste of resources over there!"

Maybe they'll get "culled" and I can optimize for MSN and get some rest.

Tubby

06-16-2006, 02:47 AM

Quote;
This thread reads like a MAD LIBS book

"free-range
compost bin
Ice cream
rock salt
Sulpher Crested Cockatoo
breeds of parrots
potted meat
Old Hen
chickens and turkeys
elephant dung
custard
The milkman
the coalman
the breadman
Swan delivery truck"

I like it.
Maybe one of us should place this message on a web page with some adsense adverts on it.
If we all link to it. we might be able to buy a few bottles of "juice' for Christmas.

I already checked. . Google will "Be in it"

We could 'clean up' there is enough 'content' on the post page to satisfy google guidelines. Not putting adsense on it would be tantamount to stupid...

incrediblehelp

06-18-2006, 11:26 AM

For those who really know how bad spam has been in Google, check out this great post at ThreadWatch.org (http://www.threadwatch.org/node/6999). Even the spammer himself responds.

NameCritic

06-18-2006, 02:28 PM

When I first came on and commented on the junk adnonsense websites, some posters kept saying this was just a few black hat websites sliding in under the radar.

I said some companies are spending a lot of money to game the adsense system. I hope the doubters realize that this is what is happening.

The next thing that I am saying is that google is a willing participant.

You cannot have a website that suddenly gets that many adsense clicks without raising a flag at google.

I know people who have had their accounts suspended for just that very reason. And I know these webmasters did not click their own links or break the tos in any way. Google wouldn't even give them a reason for blocking them.

Yet these websites that get a ton of hits from paid traffic and top google listings are not suspended. And anyone can say google is not a willing participant and say it with a straight face?

Tubby

06-18-2006, 02:33 PM

I think that is so funny, I always did like slapstick humour, I like the silliness of someone getting a pie in the face.
This is slapstick ! A massive pie . . right in the smacker . . . SPLAAAT!

Just a shame that the pie was stolen!

greeneagle

06-19-2006, 07:45 AM

In that light the GOOG looks broken almost beyond repair! That might persuade them to back off their "deaf ear" position conveyed in Matt's Blog. I don't see any other logical recourse there.

There has been a long absense there, since; May 26, 2006 @ 8:08 pm.

How's that Insider Transaction (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/it?s=GOOG) List Looking?

Ken

ctabuk

06-19-2006, 08:05 AM

GOOGLESPLAT

Lets look back at this day, with humour!! Nice One Tubby

greeneagle

06-19-2006, 08:12 AM

7,645,870 Insider Shares Sold and 0 Insider Purchases listed in the last 6 months.

That is a staggering $2,987,241,409 USD (Billions) as of this morning's listed stock price.

Does anyone read and understand "obscene" financial graffiti anymore?

Ken

My opinions are just opinions. They do not represent a reccomendation to buy or sell a stock.

Tubby

06-19-2006, 08:24 AM

david, if you jump into your car early in the morning and find it has a flat tyre. That is agravating. If you get halfway to work and the radiator blows it's top it a bloody nuisance, you could be late for work. . It cost money. If you ring the boss and tell him you will be half an hour late, and then the battery goes flat and your light dim - Then you start to wonder if you are driving the right car.

But if you go to get into your car and as you put the key in the lock it just crumble around you - all the wheels fall of, and the roof falls in. . . you simply have to laugh. is a joke! I saw the wheels fall of google.

O.K. I might be a teeensy weensy overstating it
but I am still laughing. . .

greeneagle

06-19-2006, 08:38 AM

Does a 68.54 P/E Ratio mean anything at all?

"Tulipomania" from: http://www.americanmeadows.com/Wildflower-Articles/DaffodilTulipHistory.cfm

Tulipomania. The famous rise and fall of the “great tulip craze.” Once a few bulbs got beyond the protective grasp of Clusius, they were considered very precious rarities. As a trade in the bulbs began, the prices began to rise. Through the early 1600’s the prices skyrocked as an actual trading market developed. As the hybrids became more and more glamorous, the limited supply of certain bulbs became highly prized by the rich, who ultimately, were willing to pay almost any price. By 1624, one tulip type, with only 12 bulbs available, was selling for 3000 guilders per bulb, the equivalent ot about $1500 today. (Imagine..and you can have a very similar “Rembrandt” tulip bulb now for about 50 cents!) Just a short time later, one famous sale is recorded for a single bulb going for the equivalent of $2250 plus a horse and carriage! It was an incredible bubble, and it was about to burst.

During the 1630s, the frenzy continued as notarized bills of sale were being issued for bulbs, fraud and speculation were rampant, and what always happens with financial “bubbles” happened. The crash came in 1637. Many rich traders became paupers overnight, and the prices finally settled at a much more practical level...

IMO - Investors should study history... It does indeed repeat itself!

LOL

Ken

My opinions are just opinions. They do not represent a reccomendation to buy or sell a stock.

kgun

06-19-2006, 09:02 AM

He forgot to mention heavily focused on websites that have 0 content and adsense ads and a search box.

Yes, look in my signature, can you tell me that my site with the highest pagerank DigitalPunkt, is exactly that. It got PR 4 after a few month with no sandbox effect etc. Has Google now become so big that Google is not compatible with itself? Some of the other sites that you find in the links on that page had pagerank 4, but now 0. They are all on the same IP address with minimalistic content.

crankydave

06-19-2006, 09:20 AM

For those who really know how bad spam has been in Google, check out this great post at ThreadWatch.org (http://www.threadwatch.org/node/6999). Even the spammer himself responds.

Hard to miss threads and blogs about this one. At least one of the sites has/is being delisted. Not sure if it was you or someone else wondering when the mainsteam media would start to catch on to the problems. I suspect the front page of Digg.com got a few folks attention at the plex.

It came as no real surprise to me this was bound to happe. In this thread (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=63921) I posted about the problems Big Daddy was having with subdomains about a mont ago.

If I were a betting man, I'd wager Google has de-indexed the site being talked about in the link you posted, by hand and has not addressed the deficiencies in Big Daddy that allows this to happen in the first place. I be looking for more of the same at least in the near future.

How many other clever spammers do you suppose have been doing the same thing? My guess is a lot for then the 6-7 sites mentioned in the forums and on the blogs now.

Dave

Tubby

06-19-2006, 09:52 AM

greeneagle

06-19-2006, 10:09 AM

I believe that kgun and ctabuk both have considerable experience on the financial investment side also.

Ken

kgun

06-19-2006, 11:06 AM

My Father was a mathematician, he worked in aircraft.
Math works well on conceptual realities like money, time, distance, things that have been allocated a fixed value. but math can be exclusively silly when each number is a variable that is unknown - and working in the millions.

Nevertheless, there are world trade models with millons of equations. They are used to give meaningful predictions on economic magnitudes. If you have a better model in your head, I am impressed.

"PageRank or PR(A) can be calculated using a simple iterative algorithm, and corresponds to the principal eigenvector of the normalized link matrix of the web. Also, a PageRank for 26 million web pages can be computed in a few hours on a medium size workstation. There are many other details which are beyond the scope of this paper."
Cite: http://www-db.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html

Silly creatures mathematicians!

P.S. if kgun is a mathematician then I mean "Some are'

That is correct, I am en economist specialising in mathematical finance.

Mathematics or finance? (http://salah.math.siu.edu/workshop2.html)

These partial differential equations are used to calculate the fair price of exotic options (http://www.in-the-money.com/).

The actual price that is determined by supply and demand should not be too far from the fair price. Then it could be an advantage to be able use Rubinsteins Options Calculator (http://www.in-the-money.com/pages/roc.html).

"Actually, "contextual" indexing and retrieval has been part of the algo at the "theme-based" engines (Google, Alltheweb and Lycos) for a couple years now at least. Some of the components are Latent Symantic Indexing and Term Vectoring. If you've got the patience and time, Study those subjects. My Clients and I have been prospering from knowledge of how this works for almost two years now. And I agree that this area is the most interesting and where many of the coolest innovations of search marketing are and will be appearing".
Source: http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=236820&sid=3127bf1cdd5ee61c566f31dadf7ab806

Down to earth.

1. Do we need figures?
2. Do we need bokkeping?
3. Do we need mathematical models?
4. Do we over (mis) use mathematics? Should it be used more?

Tubby

06-19-2006, 07:08 PM

kgun;
'1. Do we need figures?
2. Do we need bokkeping?
3. Do we need mathematical models?
4. Do we over (mis) use mathematics? Should it be used more?'

what we need kgun is to simply spend more time getting a "value" right, before we including it.

I think that in recent times there is a trend towards handing the mathematician - or the computer.
a list of value that are virtualy 'Picked out of the air' figures that are arrived at from an emotional source. or presumptions, and then expecting the resulting calculations to 'Prove' the original input.

Math is an extremely clean Animal. Why feed it scraps that have fallen out of the bin?.

pemburung

06-19-2006, 07:21 PM

Tubby, we'll all understand what you mean if you stay true to yourself and say "maths" instead of "math."

Mathematics may be pure, or close to it. But mathematical modeling is like any other modeling - GIGO.

Tubby

06-19-2006, 07:27 PM

Every time Google changer their algo . . it is a test. The result of the final output must be giving them some extremely interesting figures, and I expect this information is of very high value to them..

But it is a bit like going through the remains of a crashed aircraft to find out the cause.

Tubby

06-19-2006, 08:02 PM

pemburung' I have trouble with words that end in 'S' where I do not immediately see "plural" . I have problems with double LL's. and silly as it may seem I have trouble with saterday (saturday).
There are a lot of words I will never get right.
There are a lot of things I will never get right.

I realy do expect the reader to disregard [b]ALL[/b my errors, misconceptions, mistakes, and often blatant stupidity. I always offer my own personal perspective knowing that I have an itelligent reader, who may well take my input and lever from it something that might lighten some part of the whole picture. (one of them blokes that will not shut up)

kgun

06-19-2006, 08:29 PM

Now I am more confused but on a higher level. But confusion is a great opportunity for marketing. I have met Australian Ad people and they are harder than cowboys from Texas like Ken :-)

NameCritic

06-19-2006, 08:50 PM

Now I am more confused but on a higher level. But confusion is a great opportunity for marketing. I have met Australian Ad people and they are harder than cowboys from Texas like Ken :-)

There are a few more Texas cowboys around than you think. lol.

greeneagle

06-19-2006, 08:58 PM

Hey now, I only presented simple, elementary, factual, relevant, on topic math in this thread!
;O

Ken

Tubby

06-19-2006, 09:03 PM

kgun. I suspect that you would be one of the last people to get confused about anything.
Although I have noted you can be 'stumped' sometimes with the variety of english language.
How many languages do you speak? ( I am getting better at my own native language every day)

Kgun, I worked out this phrase a few years ago, and I still like it.
Confusion is; when conflicting 'truths' collide.
I use this explanation regularly whenever I feel an impending confusion approach. not all 'truths' are compatible. I constanty disregard truths of various value for the sake of clarity. Of course Clarity to me might well be a fog for someone else.

Tubby

06-19-2006, 09:33 PM

The word 'cowboy' in Australia is quite often used to describe someone who doec not know what he is doing. for example a plumber might well be called a 'cowboy' if he is unlicenced and does the odd plumbing job on the weekend, and your pipes could well ending up with a leak.

I have refered to 'Google as a bunch of cowboys' at least once in recent months.

I should note have never refered to Ken as a Cowboy.

pemburung

06-19-2006, 10:12 PM

Tubby, no offence meant - just referring to the fact that in Australia mathematics is abbreviated to maths, not math like here in the US.

And, does anywhere know where in the known universe this thread's topic is right now?

greeneagle

06-19-2006, 10:31 PM

LOL pemburung:

And, does anywhere know where in the known universe this thread's topic is right now?

A topic like "Google Haters Unite" doesn't fit on anyone's "page format". It's wide open.

I do find it odd though, with the current reported Insider Trading Numbers (last 6 months), PE Ratio, Problematic Operating Issues and so on that no one wants to address fundamentals, especially with the investor expertise represented here!

I want to know what a $2500 Tulip Bulb tastes like as long as I don't have to pay for it myself.

Yes sir we are going for $450-$500!

No, I am not in any way a "Google Hater", In fact they obviously have to this point commanded market share through their demonstrated prowess.

However, something seems to have gone real wrong with "BigDaddy", and frankly I am not sure they can retract in the public's eye, from webmaster distain or complacency, from investors positions or even their own empire if they continue to demonstrate a 100% Insider Sell-Off stance over the coming months.

I have objectively looked at the issues through multiple threads, the technicals presented, the financials, SERP Quality, Adword and Adsense issues and other parameters and I keep turning up "dark clouds"..... Some of you know I am hard to convince.

I would say that; I hope Google understands the seriousness of their position at this time, but judging by the YAHOO financial reporting linked in my earlier post, "Insiders" know where they are at.

Every Google spokesman is being hammered right now. Granted, Public Relations has never been a particular strong point at the GooglePlex but they seem to be in full retreat right now from every indicator I see.

Again, My comments are my own and do not represent WPW or any other measure of "reality" for anyone. They should not be misconstrued as recommendations to buy or sell or not buy or sell any stock.

If I had a position there I would reference the Motley Fools pretty often, they seem to stay on top of current events (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13300045/) pretty well.

Ken

NameCritic

06-19-2006, 11:11 PM

In the states cowboy is used a lot of different ways. Like you described, a rogue, a rebel, not doing things the way everyone else would, etc.

Cowboy is also described as a "loose cannon", someone who may do the unexpected, not easily controlled.

Not all Texans are real cowboys either. I grew up on a ranch, raised horses and cattle, and enjoy the term cowboy as intended.

greeneagle

06-19-2006, 11:39 PM

NameCritic
Since we want to dwell on the "Off-Topic" subject of "Cowboys" for the time... I'll take a moment to put it to rest, I hope.

Not all Texans are real cowboys either. I grew up on a ranch, raised horses and cattle, and enjoy the term cowboy as intended.

My "corn fed" "dairy raised" wife WPW member "armchairvet" drug me out of the city where I would walk out into a drug deal going down at 3:00am trying to relax after a 20hr workday in this sub-existance we call a "Webmaster".

But on the other side, I can name multiple reasons why I prefer living away from the city garbage dump. Let's just start with a few:

1) Cleaner Air
2) No Drive By Shootings
3) Many More Degrees of freedom

I can list at least 30 reasons to go beyond Suburban Flight! (Not even including no "Soccer Moms" and "Stepford Wives" for Neighbors) For me it's all about being able to work from anywhere you want to live.

Companies have to get a grip and embrace "Telecommuters" or die. Our Economy has been mandating it for some time!

My wife and I put 6000 miles a year on 2 vehicles. Gas prices are someone else's problem, not mine!

Oh! - The lower property taxes!

I was a hard case to convince!

I have met quite a few "Cowboys" after moving out here... Guess what?, it's not Hollywood "Brokeback" BS...What an injustice perped by the unknowing!

Most live off the land, have businesses and will definetely better survive any "Bird Flue" Pandemic than any city rat can imagine...

LMAOROTF

By the way, I hope everyone here is up on current events enough to know that the first case of "Bird Flue" in North America (Canada) was reported today.

I am not even going to post a link. If you haven't seen it, Google it, maybe you will find it!

Tubby,

I was fortunate enough to have toured Australia for almost 2 weeks in my Engineering/Marketing position with a Fortune 500 company... There's no other place I'd rather live.

You are quite lucky there!

Surely city folks there don't make fun of those living in the "Outback" to their face.

If we want to discuss the numerous advantages of being a "Cowboy" over a "City Rat", someone open up a new topic in the Breakroom and drop it there.

In the mean time I really would appreciate anyone that invests or has investment knowledge replying to the market fundamentals I have posted.

Thanks,

Ken

Tubby

06-20-2006, 12:01 AM

Ken;
"Surely city folks there don't make fun of those living in the "Outback" to their face."

YES!

Ken, once you leave the City. most Australians will call someone they know well a 'Dickhead' to their face If they are acting like one. We like to feedback negative comments to our freinds. . Why tell a stranger. . he can live his whole life being a dick head for all we care. Friends deserve better.
An Insult from an Australian, should always be accepted in good faith.

greeneagle

06-20-2006, 12:04 AM

Jealousy, I presume.

You have to live it, to know it.

Some of my best friends have been Australians.

The best parties I have been to were hosted by Australians.

Of all the countries I have visited, I enjoyed Australia the most... Norway runs close behind, in a different way. My perception there; "Intellectuals that like to drink!" Sorry guys it's light-hearted, no offense meant!

GEES! - What do you talk about in a GOOGLE Thread when they are in full retreat? By the way, that is why most "Webmaster Forums" are down in traffic, at the moment.

Tubby - Some people would trade with you in a heartbeat to live in a more intelligently governed country, but most cannot afford it by your immigration law. Imagine that America!

LOL

Ken

Tubby

06-20-2006, 12:36 AM

I like Google, When I made the comparison earlier to a crashed plane, and metal fatige, I was rather thinking of the value of what google might be learning.
The stock price of Google might hesitate.... but if google learns something akin to the rules that govern metal fatigue - then the newer version of google could well fly longer and higher.

Google is collecting data, and big mistakes collect BIG DATA.

I would prefer to see some older heads in the bacground of the Google scene, a bit more wisdom capable of observing a more holistic view. Google far too Gung-Ho for my liking.

greeneagle

06-20-2006, 01:01 AM

Surely, they won't risk stumbling out of the chute again. The current "Full Retreat" position is well accepted from my view.

That would be beyond "Forbearance" in many eyes. As a "Runaway" leader, there would normally be no reason to rush any changes to market, but in this case some repair seems to be mandated ASAP.

If the prior prespice called on "webmaster" as opposed to "public" input, we can hope they got the message, but then there is that "general public" surfer monster looming out there.

How influencial are webmasters anyway?

Hope no one is lost in the "flapjacks" here.

Ken

incrediblehelp

06-20-2006, 01:05 AM

Hope no one is lost in the "flapjacks" here.

I am and I don't even have any maple syrup to eat my way out.

NameCritic

06-20-2006, 01:26 AM

This is on my wishlist.

Google drops some of their lead and the other players get a little more market share.

It is a wish list.

Tubby

06-20-2006, 01:27 AM

pemburung. math is the USA spelling?
AAAHH, this might be the cause of my confusion, I seem to work a lot in US dollars, If I use a spell check it seems change a few words that I knew were correct.

Is USA English corrupting me?

greeneagle

06-20-2006, 01:34 AM

greeneagle

06-20-2006, 04:10 AM

IMO Incredible,

The best Maple Syrup comes from Canada. You gotta work a deal there. That's almost worth bartering for a Website or some SEO.

This is how it's done (total sarcasm) : When a site owner that bought into a "database for sale game", for example many Event Ticket Sales Site owners; simply review their Site for a few minutes, let them know there is absolutely no hope besides PPC since you can't even access the site for SEO and charge them $100 payable in Canadian Maple Syrup at a discount.

It's totally honest, because if they don't know that, the $100 is worth it's weight in gold against someone dishonest, "jacking" them!

Do you see that? The new GOOG makes SEO/SEM very easy in some cases!

LOL

Ken

(sarcasm aside this was intended as an educational post)

P.S. - Someone needs to add; "flapjacks", "Australia", "Cowboy", "Outback", "Canadian Maple Syrup" and a few other keywords to that Google Spam List for this thread above and repost! That was at the top of page 2. My god we are getting behind on this playground!

scanmonkey

06-20-2006, 11:18 PM

What's up with the "Off-Topic" subject of "Cowboys" In New York we have urban cowboys. I heard about the movie "Brokeback". Those kind of cowboys hang in the village or live in Queens.

kgun

06-21-2006, 02:06 PM

We all have those problems, this is an International Forum: The Ausies, The Americans and The Brits...

The Canadians are not such a problem, however the French Language influence gets in the way, once in a while.

How dare you go there when the GOOG can't even get a grip?

Ken

<confusion starts>
And add the world Tulip Bulb mania. It has been said. If it had not been for the Tulip Bulb mania, the language of Wall Street had been Dutch. I am not an expert in US history, but did not the French help USA in the war of independence?

"Saratoga is often regarded as the turning point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_War_of_Independence) of the war. Revolutionary confidence and determination, suffering from Howe's successful occupation of Philadelphia, was renewed. More importantly, the victory encouraged France to enter the war against Great Britain. For the British, the war had now become much more complicated".

So may be you should thank France for not speaking British :-)
</confusion ends>

My preferred SE is still Google. May be I am naive.

scanmonkey

06-21-2006, 08:52 PM

Actually, Google would be in Norwegian if Leif Eiriksson made it back to Norway to report his discovery of the New World.

howboutdat

06-23-2006, 12:44 AM

Money makes the world go round...like a soccer ball to the cranium.CTABUK Edit, spam content - link removed - poster warned

greeneagle

06-23-2006, 06:20 AM

crankydave

06-23-2006, 07:15 AM

Let's try and crawl back on topic here.

In all reality the GOOG has to experiment with different tools and products to find those that will take off and provide more fuel to power their leading position.

We have slammed them for a number of recent "stumbles" on that path, however that process in a competitive environment is a tried and true method in the development world for finding and administering "wedgies" to your competition.

They really can't be faulted for that methodical approach.

Ken

Sure they can. Thats what Beta and developement is for. You work out your "blunders" BEFORE going live.

How about we apply Google's "methodical approach" to aereonautics, the drug industry, automobile mfg's, to name a few, and see what happens.

Dave

greeneagle

06-23-2006, 07:20 AM

Dave,

Has anyone shown that engaging multiple new GOOG tools doesn't help the more spammy topics?

In a relaunch I am working on right now, I have switched from "MapQuest" to "Google Maps" and linked on all pages.

I'll let you know if it helps in their GOOGmire.

Note: Obviously you completely adulterate your site with non-valid code using either!

Ken

ctabuk

06-23-2006, 08:02 AM

The only thing 'methodical' about google is how much money can it make by diverting natural search to ppc, adwords, adsense.

I hope they follow the Ozlam Bird on it's ever decreasing circle flight.

Tubby

06-23-2006, 08:21 AM

crankydave; Quote
'How about we apply Google's "methodical approach" to aereonautics, the drug industry, automobile mfg's, to name a few, and see what happens.'

I am gad we got back to planes . . no real reason, I just like planes, I understand how they fly, but is always an amazement to me as they leave the ground.

Google on the other hand I do not understand, and I am rarely amazed when they crash. or a wheel falls off.

If google ever goes into the aviation business, I shall expect to see a plane that carries thousand of passengers, stops at every airport but lets nobody off, forces you to have coffee, tea, ovaltine, chocolate, beer, wine, whisky, rum, when you ask foe a sandwich. . Then you will need to click on parachute to get off, and end up nowhere near where you expected to be . . and of course there would not be an Airport near you, because Los-Angeles had over optimised and has 7,500 airports.

greeneagle

06-23-2006, 08:39 AM

You are treading dangerous waters there Tubby!

Is there really an "over-optimization penalty", or is that the excuse webmasters use for spamming the SE's at the other end of the scale from the sandbox's desolate grounds of inadequate marketing?

There are a lot of sharks out there!

Ken

Tubby

06-26-2006, 02:14 AM

just as long as the sharks do not gobble up all the other little fishes....

pemburung

06-26-2006, 10:43 PM

" I understand how they fly, but is always an amazement to me as they leave the ground."

Planes fly because there are a few more air molecules below the wing than above it (now, this is something really scary to think about next time you're sitting in 400 tons of metal and people 6 miles up in the sky without a parachute, but that's another story.)

The reason this is so is momentum - because they are already moving. Without momentum, they crash.

Google has momentum, and the air particles are responding accordingly. But if the momentum slows, the air particles will act differently. And if you run out of fuel, momentum will only take you so far.

Here endeth the parable.

Webnauts

06-26-2006, 10:47 PM

Maybe for a break you can read an article I found today and wanted to share with you: http://www.site-reference.com/articles/Search-Engines/What-Google-Said-When-You-Weren-t-Listening.html

scanmonkey

06-27-2006, 12:49 AM

The only thing 'methodical' about google is how much money can it make by diverting natural search to ppc, adwords, adsense.

It's really hard to focus on being the most relevant search engine when your #1 revenue source is ppc and your #2 revenue source is selling google shares. The 'relevant search' pitch was for the IPO

incrediblehelp

06-28-2006, 11:31 PM

At least they will finally tell us how Google search works (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9075-2247557,00.html).

Got this via TW (http://www.threadwatch.org/node/7133).

greeneagle

06-29-2006, 01:44 AM

Cracking up pemburung - That's a totally relevant "parable". Sure hope I haven't influenced you with my esoteric posts!

Maybe this is just a "sideways" thread.

LMAO - Good Post

Ken

greeneagle

06-29-2006, 01:53 AM

Webnauts, that's a good post, but the problem is: many don't want to listen, they want to be seen.

Let me name a couple representatives of our culture:

1) American Idol
2) So you Can dance?

Many of those that are entranced there surely have Alexa toolbars to help with surfing!

Ken

greeneagle

06-29-2006, 01:59 AM

Incredible,

Let me quote the opening "gigger" in that article:

"Google is pledging to demystify the hidden workings of its search engine as it returns to its founding business plan – to make all the world’s information searchable online."

It pretty much lost me there.

That's some of the most rank marketing fluff I have ever heard!

That and that and that won't happen, and those claims were never substantiated in the article.

In fact it is pretty scarey that an author can make those kind of unsubstantiated claims as bold-faced as they did and get published!

If there was something further down in the article worth reading, I just didn't get there, after that opening nonsense.

Besides, I just rcvd my "Friends of Google" newsletter from the compound yesterday and they are actively pushing the other products, harder than ever.

That article gets 2 thumbs down here!

Ken

Webnauts

06-29-2006, 03:13 AM

incrediblehelp

06-29-2006, 01:41 PM

That article gets 2 thumbs down here!

Oh it is crap all right. I didnt know I had to say it! :)

greeneagle

06-29-2006, 07:03 PM

The GOOG can not and will not ever reveal their proprietary secrets.

Any article that claims different, any communication that ever claims different in public or by private communications.... especially by any supposed SEO company should be immediate suspect!

I WANT ALL SITE OWNERS TO UNDERSTAND THIS RIGHT NOW, AND NEVER FORGET IT!

Ken

greeneagle

06-29-2006, 07:29 PM

Sorry, I got beside myself there, I don't yell very often. I think this is what Incredible was wanting to bring out here. You knew I would have to go there, didn't you Incredible? - LOL

I am wiping off the foam now.

Ken

langard

06-30-2006, 05:31 AM

Greeneagle, sometimes I think you're the guy that threw away his Citizen Band Radio and learned how to type from a Rainbow Coalition fugutive.

Other times, I think you must be just bored, stoned or perhaps drunk. Granted, you add some unsubstansiated comments to this forum once it awhile, like I do, but your posts are - more and more - becoming consistent divel.

Of course you understand that my estimation takes into account the fact that you are a Moderator - which means utter mediocrity - and have no option but to express yourself in a manner that defies comprehension...but give us a break.

I've never seen you quote a bona fide SE statistic, site comparison, special knowledge, expert advise or anything else of substance in the last three years.

Nonetheless I think that you are a valuable asset to this community and a wonderful prognosticator. More importantly, I should say something related to this particular thread in order for it to be published, I suppose.

My advise is: Don't sweat it. Tell your clients about the "long-term" plan and ride it out. No whining. No second-guessing. No pre-supposing. No Bull.