All CSS Designed Sites? [Archive]

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outatime

02-22-2006, 05:58 PM

ADAM Web Design

02-22-2006, 07:23 PM

First of all, PHP and CSS are not conflicting technologies. PHP is a server-side processing language, and CSS merely styles the output. So PHP and CSS can play nicely.

Having said that, I think your friend's thinking is the way forward. CSS greatly reduces the amount of HTML code, which affects load time. It also leads to fewer design errors as a result.

There are other SEO benefits too.

JuniorOnline

02-23-2006, 07:46 AM

if you know how to use CSS in the text - spend an hour or 2 reading the CSS tutorials..and you will know how easy it all can be!

Nothing difficult about CSS, its the same as HTML, but use external file and use classes and Id's.

in terms of tables, all you need to do in CSS is create a container (which works like a box) and then you decide where to position it on the page.. far more simpler than tables I think. I always found tables confusing ;)

Good luck though...hope you become the BEST CSS expert sooooooooooooon :)

KeithO

02-23-2006, 09:34 AM

Hello all

Newbie to SEO here to be gentle. I have a friend at work who designs websites and he has started to design all his sites in CSS, I don't just mean text he now does tables and everything in CSS its fully CSS driven.

Unfortunitly I don't use CSS like he does, I can use basic CSS for text and other items.

My sites are made in php using sql database, I use a header and a footer and the content goes in the middle and I use CSS.

My question is will his site gain much in terms of SEO over my php/sql driven site? Is my co-workers design the way forward?

Thank you all, great forum.

James
Don't worry about the server side coding of the site. the search engines only read the client side. I am currently taking a client's web site from being inline styled and minimal CSS to better coded and higher CSS usage to reduce the code levels. I have made it so far to where it is using 1/3rd of the amount of code with the same look to a visitor.

WebMasterKrames

02-23-2006, 02:23 PM

I know how to do both, and I still use html like you do. All CSS sites don't do very well at all on older browsers.

HTML = will always work

CSS = NOT backwards compatible

Using it for text formating is ok, it'll just default back to the default format. On ancient browsers your dropdown menus may not work with CSS so I usually put links at the bottom just incase.

my $.02

KeithO

02-23-2006, 02:56 PM

CSS in its basic form hasn't changed mutch. Its not CSS issues, its IE issues in their selective interpretation of W3C standards. very rarely do you see anyone using anything older than IE5 so why care about anything prior to that?

richkoi

02-23-2006, 05:26 PM

One of my favorite links for starting a CSS layout:

http://csscreator.com/version2/pagelayout.php

southplatte

02-23-2006, 07:55 PM

CSS is very forward thinking - is plays nicely with PHP and other server-side languages.

The only problem is cross-browser friendliness - but that is due to browser issues NOT css issues. Furthermore cross-browser issues originated in the mid-90s and have existed ever since and it is nothing new to a seasoned designer/developer to create cross-browser html/css/code.

I have started making all my sites 100% pure css - and it has made maintenance much faster, easier and it makes changes on a dynamic site even that much more simple.

As far as SEO, you can style any HTML tag to appear how you want, so for those that put more weight on an H1 tag, you can style it exactly how you want to.

Also, when going with XHTML and other newer standards you find the need to use CSS because many pages will no longer validate due to fonts being specified or colors etc.

OLYMPOS

02-24-2006, 02:11 PM

Hi there,

i have recently redesigned our website, using now CSS for tables, colors, sizes and else. I am very satisfied with the results.

I agree with the posting from ADAM Web Design:

"CSS greatly reduces the amount of HTML code, which affects load time."

********
About outatime questions:

"Is my co-workers design the way forward?"

YES sure.

"My question is will his site gain much in terms of SEO over my php/sql driven site"

Not at all. I have since about one month both online html code and CSS, please see as examples:

English, new with CSS for tables, colors and else
http://www.olymposyachting.com/en/yacht/ruth_alessandro.asp

French, still old version:
http://www.olymposyachting.com/fr/yacht/ruth_alessandro.asp

It makes a big difference for people using a modem (loading speed).

I am not using button-gifs and design gifs, all internal links are textlinks in tables (...There are other SEO benefits too).

freehits

02-24-2006, 03:16 PM

One of my favorite links for starting a CSS layout:

http://csscreator.com/version2/pagelayout.php
Love that link, what a finger saving tool.
Very nice.

glinted

02-27-2006, 11:06 AM

I think you need more than 2 hours to really grasp css but whatever time it takes it well worth it. I'm in the process of moving all our sites over to css. You can still use tables as well for certain things.

WebMasterKrames

02-27-2006, 12:07 PM

Its not CSS issues, its IE issues in their selective interpretation of W3C standards. very rarely do you see anyone using anything older than IE5 so why care about anything prior to that?

Because your goal as a web designer should be to make your web sites as compatible as possible for everyone. Not to try and push your philosophies on what browser is best for people. I believe in W3C, I really do, but as a professional I'm going to put asside other causes, and make a site that looks good for as many people as possible.

southplatte

02-28-2006, 02:59 AM

Let's be honest though, the web would be a safer and more secure place if people would update their browsers as they should - this would then lead to beter compatibility in many areas as well.

The only way some people will upgrade is if they have one or more sites that they cannot use that they really want to - most likely at the suggestion of a friend, family member or collegue.

Do not get me wrong, I think it should be for as many browsers as possible, but with Web 2.0, ajax and so many dynamic, creative processes available to designers why cut (in some cases) a multi-million dollar company down to looking old and outdated just to maintain compatibility with the minority of ancient browsers?

You REALLY have to know your target market and make the web site to THAT market - not ALL markets as is implied by the idea of making it work in 4.x browsers and forward - most sites I see that are created for that do no employ much in dynamics, fluid design, or anything that makes it just snap the viewers brainwaves in tune with the company and shows a market leader status.

CSS allows styling for XHTML based sites, and if some older browsers cannot render CSS properly, that means you must use older code - or not validate properly -which then, even though the site will work in many browsers, will not validate for html, xhtml, css and then in that case many times for accessbility (508) standards.

CSS has the ability to be scaled for accessibility, as well as for on-screen readers because it takes the formatting out of the html and cleans the pages up tremendously - that cannot be ignored here. It is much like writing a database enabled web site - you put all your DB and site functions in separate files so you can pull them into any page on the site - you keep the logic separate from the presentation, and the presentation separate from the logic. Same is with CSS and html/xhtml you keep the presentation separate from the logic.

WebMasterKrames

02-28-2006, 01:41 PM

I agree southplatte. Know your target audience, mine is over 50 so I stay away from extremely fancy stuff most of the time. You're right though, if your target is middle aged and younger, you're probably pretty safe.

Faglork

02-28-2006, 04:04 PM

IMO you can kick 4th/3rd/2nd generation browsers.

See
http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat_trends.htm

Since last year I don't feed the 4.xx browsers any styles - they get a plain, but usable, fully functional text version. Much like Lynx.

My pages are usable with Mosaic ... they just don't look that pretty. But hey, we have 2006. I prefer to put time & energy into accessibility issues, but not into serving pretty pages to obsolete browsers with a market share of 0.5% and still sinking.

An additional thought. Serving pretty pages to 4/3/2.xx Browsers costs money. Now, the "market share" of people with disabilities is definitely higher, AFAIR about 20% of all surfers do have a minor or major problem with their eyesight (don't nail me with these numbers, they should be almost accurate. I can't give a source right now. I have to look.).

Given these numbers, how do you justify for your client the extra effort which goes into nice formatting for 4/3/2.xx?

Given these numbers, how do you spend the time/money allocated to a project? "Accessibility issues" should get about 40 times as much as "nice formatting for 4/3/2.xx".

What is your opinion? How do you handle this?

Cheers,
faglork

southplatte

02-28-2006, 07:12 PM

I agree with you faglork - I forgot that many times the older browsers will display a page just like lynx - and if you do your css properly and content properly, the web site should still be very usable from that point as well.

I agree on the budget issue as well, especially when talking about the still occuring trend of minimalistic IT budgets. This is what we need, and this is what we get scenarios.

Agreed accessibility is, for a larger percentage of web sites, more importantly emphasized than back-compatibility with older browsers. CSS and properly validated html/xhtml can help this accessibility factor tremendously, IMO.

WMK- Good point - it is just like a music related site I created some years ago - some people told me that it was too much flash, too much sound, to visually active and took to long to load - but for the client and their target audience it was what worked and fit their niche.

ozzie_jim

03-05-2006, 10:30 PM

For me the biggest benefit is the ease of building multiple pages using a template page. If you're not using a dynamically generated site then trying to remember which <td> <tr> holds which item can be tedious.

I have just completed my first site using css:
Vending Machines (http://www.vending-machines.com.au) and I like the simplicity. I think we'll all end up only using css for layout.

Hope your site goes well,

Jim.
Vending Machines (http://www.vending-machines.com.au/note-acceptors.htm)