Linking TO websites [Archive]

SusieG

08-12-2003, 08:40 AM

fathom

08-12-2003, 09:18 AM

Hello

I am curious to know whether linking to similar websites will help my pr.

I know links pointing to you help alot but I have read an article stating that if you link to similar and related sites that this will help.

Any views?

Susie

The short of it -- yes!

Some will disagree.

However - if for example:

1. You are listed in DMOZ.org, and

2. The "linked to site" is in DMOZ, and

3. They link to DMOZ, or one site they link to, link to DMOZ, etc.

Your passed PageRank will return to you.

The math is the same for all links, PageRank flows continuously -- people just can't follow millions of link paths thus many say "don't do it" if you don't get a link in return.

They would be wrong -- most of the time.

SusieG

08-12-2003, 11:32 AM

Interesting. Yes I do agree. Really what I want is Google to know what my site is about and I reckon linking to good quality, related content sites can certainly do no harm. If anything, it will help the 'linked to' sites and then in the future if/when they reciprocate the link...it will pay off. :)

I think I'll go for it and see what happens.

Thanks again
Susie

fathom

08-12-2003, 11:46 AM

Agree - will never hurt.

a related thread Outbound Links to Authority Sites (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=1789)

slimboy

08-12-2003, 12:51 PM

I agree.

Linking to good, quality sites won't hurt and will probably help your case provided that you also have a good number of incoming links (not necessarily from the same site).

This si an awesome question and I look forward to seeing the barage of disagreement that is probably forthcoming. ;)

Steven Glover

08-12-2003, 12:54 PM

I disagree you people are crazy! Whats wrong with you? HMMMMMMMMMMM?! Just kidding. Actually I have always believed that this will help.

Tenyque

08-12-2003, 12:55 PM

It's nice to see the big picture view of PageRank put out there. KarmaPR vs PageLeak eh?

kjohnson5576

08-12-2003, 01:22 PM

I hate to say this, but I hate to link. It takes a lot of time and effort to keep the link pages current, but I do it. I am a member of most of the linking services like GoTop, LinkDirectory, LinkPartners, etc. I get about 35 requests to link each week from these services plus other people who like my site want to link also. I've seen Google over time recognize a lot of the links and I've gained Page Rank improvement because of it. I've always demanded a reciprical link to keep the status quo of incoming to outgoing fairly even. A plus is, People do look at link pages and I always receive at least a couple of hits from a reciprical link and some of my reciprical links have brought in dozens of hits over a few months period of time.

So I can only complain about the time it takes me to put up links, but not the results.

Lando

08-12-2003, 01:31 PM

Ditto to all the above, but just wanted to say for those that are not that familiar with linking (SusieG sounds like having a good understanding of it), stay away from FFA's (Free For All's). My experience is that they are just a means of harvesting email addresses (spemmed me to death when I did it years ago!!) and 'link farms', a legitimate site, but may have literally hundreds if not thousands of links.

PLEASE, anybody, correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that Google and some other SE's frown heavily on 'link farms' and you may even be penalized for linking to them. If someone out there knows different, please say so! But this is my understanding. I myself would like to have that 'opinion' either validated or refuted from the SE gurus out there :) tanks!

Lando

SusieG

08-12-2003, 01:31 PM

SusieG

08-12-2003, 01:43 PM

Lando, I am no guru but I can safely say that link farms and such like are a huge NO NO.

I've been reading up quite a lot on this topic, I am essentially a 'newbie' but once you dig and dig through the many contradictions that are out there; stay away from link farms unless you would like to compare the prices of viagra in your email inbox EVERYDAY from many pro-spam, email harvesting sources.

I have also learned that getting links from sites totally non-related to your content is a huge waste of time and if anything will hurt your pr.

fathom

08-12-2003, 02:25 PM

Fathom, thanks again for your input. I have read the associated thread you linked to on your last message. It has however left me a little confused.

I'll give a straight forward situation and see what comes of it.

My site is all about jobs, recruitment, work etc... I have accidently managed to get listed in the the first page of Google for a particular keyword relating to recruitment. Accidently meaning I hadn't gotten around to optimising that page yet :) (doing something right!) Obviously I want to capitalise on this and work for a better ranking.

Basically I am going to offer a resume distribution service and link to all the recruitment agencies. I am curious as to whether a well organised link structure to these agencies will help my site. Given that my page content and theme is very similar to theirs. Bearing in mind that these are not 'authority sites' and few will reciprocate the link.

This page is linked from my homepage pr5 and currently has pr0. All my tags and content relates to jobs, recruitment, work etc...

Glad you posted your industry niche... I'll get back to you later with a few links that will help quite a bit.

To address any confusion, authority sites are not just any old on-topic site. They tend to be leaders in an industry, governance agencies, and/or associations.

In your particular area I would assume any place concerned about "unemployment" - chamber of commerce, city and state government sites, most industry associations - IT, Tourism and Hospitality, etc.

Links out to these sites add visible integrity to your site plus the theme potential of ranking and PageRank.

The "theme" is important is this case because the chances of existing links pointing to you are directly affected by the boost you provide to the authority -- and by proxy a boost to your own site.

In addition, you are more likely -- because of the "community service" you provide (more jobs) you are more likely to actually get a link from these websites (which is a bonus - not a requirement).

I'll pm you later on a few others.

Good luck.

kjohnson5576

08-12-2003, 02:28 PM

fathom

08-12-2003, 03:13 PM

I think we need to qualify what a "Link Farm" is? I've seen many sites that only offer Links as their content. Is this a Link Farm? I agree then, nobody really looks at a Link Site when you have Search Engines that can tell you what you want in an instant.

However, having multiple pages of links on your site that link to a variety of different sites with real content, I don't think hurts and actually helps.

About FFA's...Stay away! Your link only last about 5 minutes on their page and they reserve the right to send you two emails touting the latest and greatest MLM super get rich "business" with no effort at all, as well as all kind of offers to become more "well endowed"... if you know what I mean.

There is a distinction between a directory (of links) which is also considered a "hub" or a site built on an aggregation of similiar topical sites by category, and a "link farm".

The basic idea of a link farm is a pyramid scheme.

I link to you - you link to me.

Garrett joins and he links to both of us and we both link to him.

Brittany joins and we all link to her and she links to all of us.

Jackie joins and we all link to her and she links to all of us.

John Paul joins and we all link to him and he links to all of us.

... I'll stop here but you get the picture.

In a directory -- it is one way linking only or one to one link reciprcal linking only.

bangitup

08-12-2003, 07:24 PM

From a BANGitUP.com (Building and Construction Industry Portal) point of view there's no question about how links add value to your visitor experience.

At BANGitUP we've seen a huge increase in customers since we launched our directory. The key point is always content relevance to your target customer/ visitor.

In terms of managing your links then there are great tools available. We opted for Arelis

http://www.Axandra.com/go.to/maxys

We haven't had much to do with Link Exchanges at this point but considering how well our links directory has worked may look at this in the future.

The other point is that - it does take a lot of time - you're building relationships and like any relationship (on-line or off) thats an investment.

Is it the best way to invest your time? Well that depends.

Hope that helps

IndiTech

08-13-2003, 02:35 AM

It can certainly help with search engine ratings

fathom

08-13-2003, 03:13 AM

In terms of managing your links then there are great tools available. We opted for Arelis

http://www.Axandra.com/go.to/maxys

We haven't had much to do with Link Exchanges at this point but considering how well our links directory has worked may look at this in the future.

Just one thing to be mindful of. Arelis is a decent software program to help find "related sites". What it can't do is tell if the sites it does find is appealing to your market and link exchange program.

A manual "look see" is highly advisable - never allow a program to make a management decision.

Case in point: a client (before being a client) sells "pearl jewellery" and using Zeus (a similar program) provided a good list of related sites and he let the software decide what was worth a link request for his various keywords one of which (his selling items) most popular was "pearl necklace".

He got tons of responses, reciprocal links and added them to his jewellery site (unfortunately mostly from adult sites).

It was a potential customer that harshly pointed out the error of his ways.

Never let software run your business.

MtraX

08-13-2003, 03:15 AM

Hi.

I bought SubmitWolf Pro software on behalf of my one client and keep on submitting each month, yet Google seemed to have penalized me - probably all the FFA linking (I can only find the site when typing in the actual name in Goole!), but how can I use the software without submitting to these sites? And how can I now improve the ranking after the damage have been done?

MtraX

08-14-2003, 08:46 AM

I have found that Google really hates SEO auto-software........and have seen other sites get penalized for it......
Slowly but surely I'm learning that conttent rich sites (using a more "organic" SEO) become Google friendly sites ....where the content outweighs (%) html
,,,,,then Googlebot will index your site providing your header-meta-title supports your text-----no cloaking--

Although Google may indeed hate auto software... link pointing to you can't hurt you... if they did I would guarantee near every competitor would use such software daily to get the competition penalized.

Something else cause this.

MtraX

08-14-2003, 09:16 AM

I'll keep that in mind. If not submitting every month, how do you ensure constant good ranking and hits from lots of search engines? PAY the search engines?!

MtraX

kjohnson5576

08-14-2003, 11:11 AM

I have a campaign in Google Adwords. I paused the campaign for about 3 weeks and I noticed that my Page rank also decreased in select catagories. Despite what they say, I think using their advertising services does increase your page rank in Google.

Here is another bit of experience. I pay a service (someone cold called me and I bought)to submit my site to search engines on a paid basis...so it's not spamming the SE. They submit by feed every two days to the minors and once per week to Google. I was kind of dubious about this ($39.99/month) and did not see any real results until about the third month. My percentage of Search Engine to WebSite hits as figured in my Extreme Tracking program has risen from 17% to over 20% and seems to be getting better as time goes by. I'll stick with them for another month or two and see how far up the results can go.

Anyway, I think you have to pay somthing along with good content and optimization to get good results.

Another hint. Stay away from FFA's. Nothing but spam factories.

PhilC

08-16-2003, 09:46 AM

fathom

08-16-2003, 05:31 PM

The straight answer to the orginal question, "whether linking to similar websites will help my PR", is an emphatic NO. Linking out of the site to anywhere will leak PR from the site. The idea that it will be returned to the site nnnnnn number of links down the road is garbage. It may return, and it may not return, there's no way for anybody to know. One thing that everybody does know is that linking out of the site removes PR from the site.

That's the answer to the question. As to whether or not linking to related sites is helpful for other ranking factors is open to debate. Some people are sure it is, but I've no evidence one way or the other.

This is a very narrow vision.

If we say for the moment PhilC is correct and that all outbound links "leak" PageRank ONLY then it really baffles me how any hub like DMOZ could retain any PageRank at all. With nearly 4 million holes they "must" be leaking so bad we could reenact the Titantic sinking.

This type of thinking is for those that refuse to do homework - they don't to any link research, they read a bit and make conclusions on spectulation and assumption and never prove or dispove anything (As PhilC conceeds in his own comments "It may return, and it may not return, there's no way for anybody to know" and "but I've no evidence one way or the other."... sorry PhilC there is a way to know, but you do have to do some homework if you don't want to take someones word on it).

If you are a legitimate business in a legitimate industry that has legitimate authorities then linking out "helps".

DMOZ (and others) are getting PageRank from somewhere thus you can be reasonable certain many do not follow PhilC's advice.

I will conceed that just linking out to just any site will not likely produce any results. e.g. I wouldn't link to PhilC - #1 not an authority in his field, #2 too narrow of topic thus limited change of capturing a back stream, and #3 hordes (if and when known should be avoided).

REASONABLE OUTBOUND LINKING TO TRUSTED INDUSTRY AND MARKET RESOURCES IN YOUR BUSINESS AREA WILL PRODUCE RESULTS.

PhilC

08-16-2003, 06:29 PM

This is a very narrow vision.
It's a mathematical vision - based on the published mathematics and not on imagination, however reasonable it may sound. Mathematics are narrow - and accurate.

REASONABLE OUTBOUND LINKING TO TRUSTED INDUSTRY AND MARKET RESOURCES IN YOUR BUSINESS AREA WILL PRODUCE RESULTS.
Maybe it will, but that wasn't the question. The question was will it help PR. And the answer to that is no.

This type of thinking is for those that refuse to do homework - they don't to any link research, they read a bit and make conclusions on spectulation and assumption and never prove or dispove anything
Er...nope. I think you'll find that nothing here (http://www.webworkshop.net/pagerank.html) could be described as "conclusions on speculation and assumption". I didn't "read [it] a bit" - I wrote it.

I will conceed that just linking out to just any site will not likely produce any results.
Why not be more accurate and say that it will leak PR? You know that it will.

You say, PhilC:-

#1 not an authority in his field
Which field would that be? PageRank? Google seems to to think I'm an authority on that if you do a search on it. If you don't agree, who is an authority on PageRank? SEO, maybe? I've been described as among the top 10 in the world though, personally, I would disagree. Still, I'm considered as something of an SEO expert by many people.

#2 too narrow of topic thus limited change of capturing a back stream
Huh?

#3 hordes (if and when known should be avoided)
You mean I choose not to leak too much PR? Right :)

Now then Fathom. Let's see your evidence that linking out of a site does not leak PR from the site. Don't use generalizations like you did above; let's see the sums. I've shown you my sums (if you haven't seen them, they are in the link above). My sums were produced by Google. Now you show me yours.

fathom

08-16-2003, 07:29 PM

Now then Fathom. Let's see your evidence that linking out of a site does not leak PR from the site. Don't use generalizations like you did above; let's see the sums. I've shown you my sums (if you haven't seen them, they are in the link above). My sums were produced by Google. Now you show me yours.

The question isn't "leak" the question is "does it help".

You say no.

I say yes -- it does help and have dicussed this in length to which you say is garbage, but refused to prove it's garbage.

Admittedly, the wrong subject is in discussion, again "PageRank Leak" is not the issue will it help is.

Help what? I do not mean to say -- linking out helps stop PageRank Leak. I never implied this (you are stuck on the premise "PageRank Leak".

Will linking out help improve rankings (regardless of how much less PageRank you think you have)... most certainly yes.

Here is an easy way to understand this.

The gas in your cars allow you to get from point A to point B (Gas=PageRank)

Gas a home costs $1 a gallon, at the destination it costs $0.50 a gallon.

You want that $0.50 a gallon but to get it you need to spent a $1.00 a gallon.

If you get that $0.50 a gallon gas it pays for the trip back home plus the next trip down, plus you get to do something there (at the distination).

You could stay at home (and avoid PageRank Leakage -it does not cost a penny in gas) but then you don't get the experience of the destination either.

So while you are worried about "spending" (PageRank Leak), others are enjoying the destination (better Ranks) and getting a cheaper chance to enjoy the detination "again" (more PageRank in return that they didn't expect!). ;)

PhilC

08-16-2003, 08:57 PM

Quote:
The question isn't "leak" the question is "does it help".

Nope. The question was does it help PR. I already said that there may be ranking factors that make linking to relative sites beneficial. I don't know one way or the other, but helping wasn't the question. Helping PR was the question, and linking outside the site definitely leaks PR.

Quote:
Admittedly, the wrong subject is in discussion, again "PageRank Leak" is not the issue will it help is.

If you check the original question, you'll see that it is about PR and not about helping a site in general. I've only addressed the original question.

Your gas analogy may sound fine, but it's not the same as PageRank. With the gas scenario, you know that if you spend a little you'll gain more and, therefore, make a profit. But PR is not like that. You can certainly spend a little PR but you've no way of knowing whether or not you'll get any back. One thing you do know for an absolute certainty is that, if you spend a little PR, you'll have less than you had before you spent it. Brin and Page told us that, and GoogleGuy confirmed it in a recent WMW post when he saw an SEO taking half of his clients' PR by placing a link to his (the SEO) site on each of the clients' pages. GG thought it was an unscrupulous thing to do - and I agree.

Quote:
So while you are worried about "spending" (PageRank Leak), others are enjoying the destination (better Ranks) and getting a cheaper chance to enjoy the detination "again" (more PageRank in return that they didn't expect!).

How would you know that? In the last few minutes I added an addendum to one of my articles (this one (http://www.webworkshop.net/ethical_search_engine_optimization.html)) because I found somebody's article which said this:-

"THE proven method of ranking well in your desired search phrases is simply to provide great content with appropriate page architecture in a category that is not already dominated by cheaters doing keyword stuffing and using other unethical techniques to gain top positions".

Notice that this SEO's "proven method" is to avoid competitive categories. If a site's subject is in a competitive category, that SEO, and all the other so-called 'ethical' SEOs, can't succeed. On the other hand, I have clients in some very competitive categories (casino, printer cartridges, very big city hotels, etc.) and I do succeed. So what makes you think that I am sitting here worried about spending PageRank while others are getting better rankings? Heck, I get SEOs wanting me to do search engine optimization for terms they can't succeed with themselves. Read that article of mine - it's quite an eye-opener about SEOs, including one very prominent SEO ;)

fathom

08-16-2003, 10:28 PM

Nope. The question was does it help PR. I already said that there may be ranking factors that make linking to relative sites beneficial. I don't know one way or the other, but helping wasn't the question. Helping PR was the question, and linking outside the site definitely leaks PR.

Sure thing... if no one linked out or everyone used JavaScript... were would you be?

Nothing more here, time to move on.

PhilC

08-18-2003, 11:17 AM

This thread was locked by Fathom immediately after getting the last word in above. It was re-opened by and administrator.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure thing... if no one linked out or everyone used JavaScript... were would you be?
Back to having all the ranking factors within the site. But websites do link out without javascript, and SEOs and webmasters can take advantage of it - nice, huh?

One thing that didn't get mentioned is the type of site that is trying to push itself up the rankings. Some sites are link magnets (forums, seo sites, etc.) and, for those, PR will come in whether or not links are going out. But most sites do not naturally attract links and too much linking out may seriously hurt them. Certainly they'll lose PR, and it will stay lost.

Nothing more here, time to move on.
As you wish ;)

fathom

08-18-2003, 07:28 PM

Moderators Comments

I locked this thread after re-reading all previous posts. The topic was debated; amplified, debated some more, many resources brought to add weight to the discussion, and debated yet again but running over the same ground.

It has subsequentlty been brought to my attention that may have slammed a fellow member. I will continue to wholeheartedly stand by my comments but expand on such comments so that all can appreciate why such comments were made.

PhilC - #1 not an authority in his field

When information is "taken out of context" of the topic and thread... you can read many things into it. However, if you read the whole thread and digest all posted information and supporting link resources you may find credible reasoning to my comments. To help members out I will try to explain.

An "Authority" (in terms of links and web status) is not simply a matter of professionalism... it is a matter of "link constructs" or the way a specific web site is linked to and from other specific websites.

An "Authority" has a vast array of links pointing to it and by default usually a PR10 (although lesser PageRank of 9 and 8 do exist).

My comments were non-reflective of PhilC as a person or a professional in a specific field, (I cannot physical link to PhilC himself, I could, if so desired, link to PhilC's website). His professionalism and integrity was never an issue.

His advice is however, misleading and based on a premise noting on his website http://www.webworkshop.net/pagerank.html#outbound_links where all outgoing links must be JavaScript (if not reciprated) so not to lose PageRank to other sites and as such -- no PageRank is transferred (no leak).

This however, does not represent a method consistent with PageRank development (this is PageRank retention). As PhilC is a credible author of Internet related information, PhilC is in a position to influence other member’s knowledge development and, assist in all future developments of the World Wide Web.

As such, this means that we must always question the information provided and engage in open debate as in this forum. I will not question PhilC professionalism, motives, or integrity – just the information that he provides to members and hope others do the same for me. God knows none of us knows it all.

PhilC in a member in many forum, and from forums members are normally allowed to add links to their websites and the more a member posts the more links (or more PageRank) that are passed to PhilC's website. We all do.

PhilC also links to these forums but through JavaScript – since Google cannot crawl a JavaScript link – no link credit is provided or PageRank passed (thus as he indicates he saves himself from the dreaded "PageRank Leak").

In addition to this – PhilC limits his own website from gaining higher status – and demonstrates to members that they should/must do the same to develop their website.

I interjected that Authority websites are good to link to and by definition have "inter-connectiveness" and you should as a matter of principle link to them.

They are the center of a community of websites not just because many websites link to them – but also because the authority site links to other sites the have similar status and accordingly adds more of a unique community to its own community. This practice happens at many levels - government run websites (all levels), non-profit websites, industry association information, and informative portals. These type sites are "authorities".

PhilC's website does not have the link constuct to be distinguished as an authority.

Many websites within each unique community are in many communities – thus an Authority linking to another authority increases the second authority PageRank. Should any authority link to another site that, subsequently links to you, an increase in PageRank occurs and more so, since PageRank does not choose which paths to follow, it follows all paths. In the inter-connectiveness of the web, this can be (and often) multiple increases.

In addition, Authorities commonly link to hubs and hubs are primarily outbound linking to sites, which if you listed you gain your own PageRank.

PhilC's advice - JavaScript outbound links if no reciprocal link is provide.

1. PhilC does receive links from forums but JavaScripts all backlinks because of the PageRank drain. This is a contradiction of his previous advice (a reciprocal link is provided),

2. In fact – if the JavaScript was removed he would receive some extra PageRank in return from his own posts while the rest flowed naturally through the connectiveness of the forum passes through all subsequent links (note: other members of a forum have a website that link to your site, and some PageRank returns here, and so on out of the forum and to other websites – some that also link to you,

3. Where PageRank leak is really apparent is PhilC client’s websites that sport a design by PhilC (his business – and not JavaScript ) yet PhilC does not link back (two contradictions of his previous advice (a reciprocal link is provided and if not JavaScript it -- based on his own document advice), and

4. Authority websites are not/were not built with PageRank in mind, and JavaScript was never introduced in any credible research papers (or study) as a method to "develop PageRank" thus my comment about "not an Authority". If your website is not inter-connected you will never gain authority status no matter how much PageRank you retain.

PageRank is "intangible" – if you do not link to sites, that link to sites, that continue to develop PageRank paths and link corridors all the links pointing to you are "less" than they could be. (If you have no links to your site, in theory you have no PageRank and not indexed in Google - thus links connot hurt at all - only help other see a visitor - and a possible link back. Now you have PageRank).

PhilC wrote: Back to having all the ranking factors within the site. But websites do link out without JavaScript, and SEOs and webmasters can take advantage of it - nice, huh?

One thing that didn't get mentioned is the type of site that is trying to push itself up the rankings. Some sites are link magnets (forums, seo sites, etc.) and, for those, PR will come in whether or not links are going out. But most sites do not naturally attract links and too much linking out may seriously hurt them. Certainly they'll lose PR, and it will stay lost.

I am very dismayed by these comments – a backlink check of PhilC's website shows client websites linking to his website and a check on these client sites shows no JavaScript link – would this not be PageRank Leak?

I have no problem with varying opinions, however, these websites you imply -- "do not naturally attract links and too much linking out may seriously hurt them. Certainly they'll lose PR, and it will stay lost".

Would they or would they not benefit from a link out by their SEO, and in return would you not get something back in return?

Are you not taking advantage of your own clients, or at least not following your own advice that you wish to pass on to forum members?

Rhetorical questions – no need to reply.

Admittedly, this discussion is probably far more advanced than many members can comprehend, and rather than continuing this misguided debate, I locked the thread.

Since this time the thread was locked.

I believe the SEO industry has a big black eye and educating business owners into the many issues involved is a testament that SEO is a competitive advantage.

Notwithstanding, the World Wide Web was built on inter-connectiveness... you cannot have inter-connectiveness if the linkage is only one-way and members need to appreciate this.

I practice what I preach on my sites, on client's websites, here, and many forums.

I link out! - I link to gain a competitive advantage.

PhilC

08-18-2003, 08:56 PM

And I thought this thread was finished :) I do enjoy a good debate so...

a backlink check of PhilC's website shows client websites linking to his website and a check on these client sites shows no JavaScript link would this not be PageRank Leak?
I couldn't wait to get to this bit so I put it first :) Which of my client's websites are you refering to? I can tell you now that you don't know any of my clients or their sites, but please tell us which sites you are refering to.

I'm not going to publically discuss the pros and cons of locking this thread, but I'll say that, as long as people are discussing things in a reasonable fashion, I personally see no reason to lock a thread. If and when people get fed up of writing the posts, they'll stop and the thread will fade naturally into history. Also, whether or not a discussion is far more advanced than many members can comprehend doesn't matter. If the people having the discussion understand it, it's fine. Of course it would be better if everyone understands it (as I'm sure most people do) but it's also fine of only the debators understand it.

To keep the post size down, I won't use any more quotes if I can help it.

The "authority" comments in your last post are fine. The first time you mentioned the word, it sounded like you were saying that I am not an authority in my field. "PhilC - #1 not an authority in his field" - it does say that!!! However, Alltheweb has about 3500 inbound links to my site but I don't believe that any of them are PR8, 9 or 10. With your new explanation of the word, "authority", I accept your conclusions.

On my apparently unfair linking practises

Correct me if I'm wrong but my article doesn't say that all unreciprocated outbound links must be javascript. It suggests hiding them, and that javascript is one means of doing it. I know....I'm being picky ;)

The nature of my links to forums are my own business. I don't place links to my site in forums for PR purposes. I place them when and where I think they will be useful or helpful for the topic in hand. If I wanted to use links from forums to my gain, I would certainly use some decent link text in my sig line. Also, it is very simple for forums to hide the links in posts - I simply don't look. I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree with that particular evidence, my friend.

In addition to this PhilC limits his own website from gaining higher status and demonstrates to members that they should/must do the same to develop their website.
I had to quote that bit. You are mistaken fathom. You will need to explain what you mean by "status" in this instance but I will assume you mean either higher PR or higher "authority". Reducing PR loss does not prevent a site from gaining PR or from gaining high PR inbound links.

There are quite a number of inaccuracies in your post, especially concerning my website and linkages, which never should have entered the debate at all. Although you said you didn't intend to have a go at me personally (my paraphrase), you went on to paint me in a bad light by making false accusations about my practises concerning links to and from my clients' sites and forums. I'll assume that you made an honest mistake.

But I'm not going to pick the inaccuracies off one-by-one because it would create a much larger post and would be terribly boring. Instead let's respond to one of the things you said:-

You mentioned that this thread had gone round the houses a bit (my paraphrase), and you are right. So let's cut the side issues out and get back to the original question from the first post. Either linking out of a site helps PR or it doesn't. Which of those is correct does matter to people so it is a good debate to have as long as we stick to the topic. One of our opinions is correct and the other isn't. Let's debate it. I want you to explain your reasoning in no uncertain terms, and show how the PR within a site is increased by linking out of it. Please leave anything personal out of it. What I do is my business and should have no part in this debate. If you really want to discuss something that I do or write, please start a new thread to ask or challenge me about it. If you do, you'll need to send me a message so I know that it's there. Unless it's too personal, I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

Just one extra thing that I ask...please tell us which of my clients' sites I have placed links to my site on. I consider your comments about it to be quite serious and I'd like it cleared up.

PhilC

08-20-2003, 12:02 PM

It seems that fathom doesn't want to continue this debate. It's a pity because whether or not linking out of a site loses PageRank is something that everyone who is trying to promote a site in the engines needs to know, and an undistracted debate on it would have been useful.

It also seems that he doesn't want to tell us which of my clients' sites I am supposed to have put links to my site on, and that's a shame.

... a backlink check of PhilC's website shows client websites linking to his website and a check on these client sites shows no JavaScript link - would this not be PageRank Leak?
This is public accusation which I take quite seriously. He says that I place links on my clients' sites, without hiding them with JavaScript, and therefore leaking PageRank from my clients' sites to mine. That would, of course be unscrupulous. So, to set the record straight:-

None of my clients' sites have ever had a link to any of my sites on them - neither a normal link, nor a hidden (JavaScript or any other method) link. There is not now, and never has been, any way for anyone or any spider to arrive at any of my sites via any kind of link on any of my clients' sites.

Earlier in this thread, fathom virtually accused me of making statements without doing enough research. He was mistaken, if course. It's ironic, therefore, that he made the quoted statement above without doing enough research himself. There are a great many sites that link to mine without the links being hidden. The links were, and continue to be, placed on most of those sites because the webmaster wants to put them there - they just do it. There are other sites that show up in the backlinks that also link to mine without the links being hidden - I own those sites! I am quite sure that these are the sites that fathom found, but he jumped to the wrong conclusion and failed to do any further research. The simple research of checking the Contact details on each of the sites would have revealed all.

It's a shame when people won't accept responsibility for what they say. In the last post I asked fathom to tell us which sites he was referring to because his public statement (accusation) was serious. He has chosen to ignore the request - it's a shame.

janeth

01-29-2004, 12:39 PM

You get to playing around you never know what you can find.

Here is my question for both Phil C and Fathom do you feel from when this post was first made anything has changed from then to the way you think now?

I did not read everything but Phil C how do you feel about link exchanges from one web site to the next?

PhilC

01-29-2004, 01:04 PM

Hi Janeth,

Nope. I don't think anything has changed concerning the the original question in this thread. Linking out still leaks PageRank, and links into a site still increase PageRank.

One thing has changed though. Previously, I prefered not to show disagreement with too much that fathom said, or the posts would have been incredibly long, so I accepted his idea of what an "authority" is. One of his own criteria (nobody else's criteria) is that an authority page/site has "by default" a PR10 page, or a very high PR page, linking to it. Of course, that's not correct.

Link exchanges are fine. With the new 'themes' theory, started in this forum, link exchanges with on-topic sites would help a lot. I don't think that the themes theory is correct though, but that's another matter.

fathom

01-29-2004, 02:34 PM

...Here is my question for both Phil C and Fathom do you feel from when this post was first made anything has changed from then to the way you think now?...

Nope.

Mel

01-29-2004, 07:15 PM

...I have also learned that getting links from sites totally non-related to your content is a huge waste of time and if anything will hurt your pr.

Hi Susie.

PageRank takes into account only the PR of the page the link is from and the number of outbound links on the page where the link is found and will calculate the same PR from a related or non related site if the other two factors are equal.

It may be that your ranking will improve if you link from related sites, but ranking and PageRank are two different animals.

Mel

01-29-2004, 07:47 PM

Hello

I am curious to know whether linking to similar websites will help my pr.

I know links pointing to you help alot but I have read an article stating that if you link to similar and related sites that this will help.

Any views?

Susie

I do love a Good discussion on Pagerank.

This is the original question and the strict answer to that question is that there is no factor in the PageRank equation that takes into account anything but inbound links. So IMO answer to that question IMO is "no, not directly".

PhilC has said it may result in a lower PageRank of certain pages in your site but IMO this only applies in the context of not distributing the PR in your site in the most efficient manner. In otherwords the outbound links mean that the PR that page transfers to the other pages of your site will be less, and they in turn will pass less back to the original page. It does not mean that if this is a standalone page (few and far between those) the PR of the page will decrease.

Fathom on the other hand says that linking out will benefit the pages you link to and that in turn will benefit the entire spectrum of web pages in the internet and some of that will return to your site and help your PR increase.

No doubt that is true in the strict sense, but thats kind of analgous to saying that if you give generously to homeless on the street you will be putting more money into the economy so the economy will get better and eventually you will get paid better, thus reaching the conclusion that giving generously to the homeless will increase the money in your pocket. It may indeed, but you will have to wait a long time to see the effects and when you get to the Grocery store later that evening you will not see more money in your pocket but less.

One more point if I may.

Moderators are the backbone of any forum, but they have to use thier authority responsibly. If a moderator is actively involved in a discussion that is being conducted without flames and anger, then the locking of that thread by the moderator would be suspect IMO.

And as for the arguement that the discussion is above the head of those reading it, I say speak for yourself.
I never learned much in University if there were not things I did not know in the course. How else is one to learn if not by being exposed to new ideas?

PhilC

01-29-2004, 09:03 PM

Very well put, Mel. The earlier discussion went a bit off the rails when the focus was turned onto me personally. It's a typical ploy to detract from a debate when it isn't going the way that's desired. But because of the detraction, an interesting proof was never raised....

There is a fixed amount of PageRank that is shared between all the pages in Google's index. The total amount is equal to the number of pages in the index. I am not talking about the Toolbar numbers (TPR); I am talking about the actual raw PageRank. The amount is fixed; the only thing to determine is how it is distributed - how much of it to allocate to each page in the index.

For simplicity, let's assume that every link is equal, regardless of the linking page's PageRank.

If every page in the index contains one link to every other page in the index, the distribution would be entirely equal, and each page would have a PageRank value of 1. Similarly, if every page in the index contains TWO links to every other page in the index, the distribution would still be equal, and each page would have a PageRank value of 1.

Now let's say that one of the pages removes one of its two links to one of the other pages. That page would lose slightly less PageRank than the rest of the pages, and the page that didn't receive the removed link would gain slightly less than the rest of the pages. So the distribution would be equal for all the pages except those two. The PageRank hog would have a slightly higher share, and the other page would have a slightly lower share.

That's a very simplistic, but accurate view of how PageRank distribution works. In reality, the pages don't all link to each other, and the PageRanks of the linking pages are taken into account, so some pages end up with a much bigger share than other pages.

And now the point of this...

Fathom suggested that linking out of a site eventually gains PageRank for the site. I.e. somehow the leaked PageRank is increased down the line of links so that more of it eventually comes back to the site than was leaked.

But that can't be true. There is a fixed amount of PageRank that is shared between all pages. It cannot be increased. If it happens that more PageRank comes back to the site, then it *must* be that another site somewhere has lost some PageRank. But what if the losing site also linked out? How come it lost PageRank when, if Fathom's idea is correct, it should have gained.

For Fathom's idea to be correct, and if all sites link out as he suggests they should, then the total amount of PageRank must increase somehow for each site to make gains. That *cannot* happen. Bryn and Page stated that the average of all PageRanks is 1; i.e. the total PageRank, when the PageRanks of all pages are added together, is equal to the number of pages multiplied by 1. The total cannot be added to by the existing pages in the index no matter how they are linked.

This can be proved by using a PageRank calculator (see my sig line - there's a calculator in the site). Pretend that the entire web consists of just 10 pages, and use the calculator to link them in any way you like. The total amount of PageRank cannot exceed 10. Whether the web comprises 10 pages or 10 billion pages, it's just the same. The total PageRank is equal to the number of pages on the web (in Google's index), and that's all there is to share between all the pages. If one page gains, another page must lose. There is no way around that.

The only valid conclusion is that linking out of a site leaks PageRank, and links into a site gain PageRank for the site.

NOTE: the calculator uses Bryn and Page's (the Google founders) PageRank formula.

janeth

01-29-2004, 09:22 PM

Hi Phil C,

While you make it all sound good if you take a site build it to 1,000 pages and have no one linking to it what will your pr be?

So then you add a new page for exchanging links you get people linking to your home page and the only page linking out is your link page which is there only because of the links and it links back to your home page so you gain all around.

Now if you have a 500 page web site with a lot of links being exchanged both ways the pr will be higher for that site then your 1,000 page site that never exchanged links.

PhilC

01-29-2004, 09:58 PM

Hi Janeth,

The total PageRank in a 1000 page site, that has no inbound or outbound links is 1000. How it is distributed around the site's pages depends on the internal linkages.

If you add a links page, the total goes up to 1001 (it doesn't matter whether or not it links to the home page). If you add some links from the links page to other sites, the total PageRank within the site goes down. If you get links into the site from other sites, the total goes up by an amount which depends on the PageRanks of the pages that link to the site.

Now if you have a 500 page web site with a lot of links being exchanged both ways the pr will be higher for that site then your 1,000 page site that never exchanged links.
No. It could be if you get links from some higher PageRank pages than your own. But if you exchange links with lower PageRank pages than your own, the site will lose PageRank. The final total within the site depends on whether your link exchanges gain or lose PageRank.

Reminder: don't confuse TPR with PageRank.

janeth

01-29-2004, 10:31 PM

So your saying that for every page you add to your site you loose pr ?

Mel

01-30-2004, 12:03 AM

I don't think that is what Phil is saying Janeth.

IMO he is talking about the concept that the average PR (NOT TPR) of all web pages is ONE, so the total PageRank that a site has at its disposal (to either channel to its other internal pages or to external pages) is initially a function of the number of pages in the site, so a 1000 page site has 1000 (lets call them PR points) that it can initially channel around. If pages are added the total goes up, if oubound links are added the total goes down, if inbound links are added the total goes up.

We mostly tend to think about increasing the PR of our home page, and one of the effective ways to do that is to get inbound links to the page from pages with a High PR, but this works the same for any page, and you can use the internal linking structure of your site to decide where you want High PR pages and where you want low PR pages.

In general most sites tend to have several pages where we don't much care about the PR, such as the TOS, the contacts page, the sitemap, etc, so we can Maximize the PR of other pages by not chanelling PR to those pages.

jackson992

01-30-2004, 02:30 AM

ok now I am confused.

I thought TPR was the PR aka the same thing?

anuj_pandit1

01-30-2004, 02:56 AM

Hello Friend,
Link having twa ways....

1- Same Sector Websites
2- Other Sector Websites.

Same Sector website will help you to boost your rank with page rank.

Other sector website will help to increse your page rank.

I hope it will help you.

Regards
Alok KUmar Upadhyay

Mel

01-30-2004, 03:16 AM

ok now I am confused.

I thought TPR was the PR aka the same thing?

You're not the only one Jack.

Toolbar PR is the little green graphic on the Google toolbar which reports your TPR in terms of a tag from one to ten,and while the tag is numerered it is not a number and cannot be used in calculations like TPR 6 is twice as big as TPR 3.

PR is the True PR which is a number and which google does use in its calculations and which has an average value of 1 by definition.

Given that there are billions of pages in the Google index (note that only the Google index is the reference point since PR is strictly a google phenomenon) the value of any page could range from 0 to perhaps many millions,but we don't know what the real numbers are, nor can we guess them by looking at TPR.

Diana Philips

01-30-2004, 03:45 AM

Hello,
Yes, it really helps if you link your website to similar and related sites which have content relating to the topic of your website. Actually search engines do give weightage to this factor also while giving page ranking for websites. If the crawler finds that you have linked to a totally unrelated website just for the sake of linking and thereby are creating a link farm your rankings are going to go down. Whereas if the crawler finds that you have related to sites really rich in content & which are a source of information for the visitors then it may really help in your page rankings.

fathom

01-30-2004, 05:29 AM

Hello

I am curious to know whether linking to similar websites will help my pr.

I know links pointing to you help alot but I have read an article stating that if you link to similar and related sites that this will help.

Any views?

Susie

To clear up a couple of things (after reading this thread again completely) - we view PageRank as an important ingredient to rank - not just to looking at a green bar moving higher.

As PageRank is one of 100 ingredients to develop good ranking and we all know the the "highest" PageRank doesn't necessary gain the highest rank -- we can conclude that the other 99 factors have something to do with good ranking.

Admittedly I do not sit and consider PageRank as something totally unrelated to everything else and as such there are tradeoffs when considering this question.

So -- for the record - If you receive links (and PageRank) and never link out - sure you gain everything (PageRank wise) and lose nothing (PageRank wise).

However as PageRank is universal and the "leakage" is universal if you send one and then you gain one and both were precisely at the same level the lose is equal to the gain (you lose at 85% divided by the number of links - and you gain at 85% divided by the number of links.

Unfortuately for us all we can't just "get" links without giving links - but the give isn't as bad as some would let you believe as "PageRank" IS not your end goal -- ranking is, and this is where that "outbound, so dreaded sinking like Titanic leakage really pays-off.

Linking to similar sites really pay-offs (to limited your lost leakage) as same industry segment sites tend to link to what supports them thus and if they do not link to you directly the likelihood that they link to someone that links to you and all the leakage just keeping following link paths many of which come right back to you.

Unfortunately sometimes those link paths end at sites that by design (whether intentional or unintentional Javascript all outbound links to stop the flow. That's the nature of the beast.

To reiterate - "leakage" is a tradeoff but it does help to rank better.

Also - a point that came up early in this discussion - forum and directories... both give tons of links and yet most thrive.

Regardless of the website purpose - all sites are made of pages and content and links... and all have the same PageRanking formula associated with their "outbound" linkage and leakage.

janeth

01-30-2004, 08:08 AM

As Fathom said there is no way ( unless you have a lot of money or a heck of a web site ) that your going to get links but never have to put out links.

But know I disagree

Fathom wrote

"Quote
However as PageRank is universal and the "leakage" is universal if you send one and then you gain one and both were precisely at the same level the lose is equal to the gain (you lose at 85% divided by the number of links - and you gain at 85% divided by the number of links.

The reason being is that when I link to your site I add something to your site which then puts you higher then me so then when you link back since you are now higher you bring me up higher.

PhilC

01-30-2004, 09:28 AM

Mel explained things in detail, but I'll give some 'nutshell' versions...

So your saying that for every page you add to your site you loose pr ?
Every page you add to a website increases the PageRank within the site by 1.

I thought TPR was the PR aka the same thing?
PR (PageRank) is the numerical value that is used in the PageRank calculations. Nobody know what the actual numbers are.

TPR is a label - not a numerical value, and can't be used in any calculations. The labels are usually referred to as PR5, PR6, etc. They are not numerical values.

PhilC

01-30-2004, 10:07 AM

Fathom: So -- for the record - If you receive links (and PageRank) and never link out - sure you gain everything (PageRank wise) and lose nothing (PageRank wise).
You know, I think we're finally coming together, Fathom. You've changed your earlier suggestion, and you now agree that linking out really does leak PageRank. That was the question that was asked:-

I am curious to know whether linking to similar websites will help my pr.

You are correct that most sites don't naturally attract links. Some types of site do (forums, information sites, etc.), but most don't, and so link exchanges are arranged. I never disagreed with exchanges - I've always recommended them and the slight PR loss/gain one way or the other is very acceptable.

Earlier in the thread you tried to make out that I suggest hiding all outlinks from spiders. That was never true. If you make a link exchange for PR/linkpop purposes, don't hide it from spiders. But if you link to another site just because you want to, and if you don't want to leak PR, hide it from spiders. I have always said that a site must have some spiderable links to other sites just in case Google decides to automatically spot PR hogs.

Some people say that linking to on-topic sites has a ranking benefit. Personally, I haven't seen any evidence for it, but I can't say that it isn't true. However, that isn't the subject of this thread. The subject is, will linking out of a site help the site's PR, and the answer is "no". The idea that PR will be helped because of the overall scheme of things (my paraphrase) wasn't correct.

PhilC

01-30-2004, 10:17 AM

Janeth: The reason being is that when I link to your site I add something to your site which then puts you higher then me so then when you link back since you are now higher you bring me up higher.

That's not quite right, Janeth. Exchanging a link with a page of identical PageRank (not TPR) will leave both pages with neither a loss nor a gain on that particular transaction. The PR difference will be fed down the other links on each of those pages, and the PRs all round will be changed, but on that particular transaction, there's no loss or gain for either page.

PageRank isn't calculated the way that you reasoned it. If you read How Is Page Rank Calculated (http://www.webworkshop.net/pagerank.html#how_is_pagerank_calculated), you will see that it requires many iterations of the calculations to arrive at the final figures, which are never accurate because they are always based on inaccurate data. But I'll leave you to read that part of the article rather than explain it in detail here.

janeth

01-30-2004, 11:45 AM

Hi PhilC,

That works for me the main thing I was thinking was that you where against link exchanges.

But as you stated there would be no way for the standard web site to build pr with out it.

PhilC

01-30-2004, 12:00 PM

Nobody should be against link exchanges. I'm very fussy about the pages I exchange with though. In fact, I rarely do it. The people who want the exchanges always seem to be small sites that want to take advantage of your traffic, or low PR sites and pages, who want to take advantage of your PR. I'll exchange with non-competitors on a reasonably equal level (or higher) but not with most people who ask.

jackson992

01-30-2004, 02:33 PM

Thanks Mel. I understand now lol. There must be a way to figure out what our actual PR is.

Phil:

So when someone asks my PR 4 site for a link to trade and their site is PR 2 that would be suicide for me right?

PhilC

01-30-2004, 02:41 PM

Unfortunately, there is no way to work out what a page's actual PageRank is.

It wouldn't be suicide. I wouldn't exchange links from a PR4 to a PR2, but other people might.

seafoam

01-30-2004, 05:58 PM

So when someone asks my PR 4 site for a link to trade and their site is PR 2 that would be suicide for me right?

Not really.

It could just be that they are a new site. My latest is still PR2, but it won't be for long;-) So anyone who refuses a link on that basis would be shooting themselves in the foot.

It would be better to judge the site on other factors, like does it have any unique content that might eventually attract more links? Or the general quality of the site. Does the webmaster seem like someone who knows what they are doing and means business. Or have they just thrown a site together, using a free server and no domain name?

I was checking out a possible link exchange yesterday, and it said they would only exchange links if their link was on a PR4 page. When I looked, their own links page only had PR2!

I seldom link with sites that don't pass a reasonable amount of PR to their links page. I try to give my link partners a good deal (a very good deal in fact), and expect the same in return.

PhilC

01-30-2004, 06:09 PM

I've never used this technique myself, and I've never responded to one, but I keep seeing links on sites that say something meaning, 'exchange links with this site'. I often think that many website owners would go for it, and it's probably one good way of getting link exchanges - by letting them come to you.

Najoba

01-30-2004, 09:54 PM

I am a newbie with an e-commerce site that just came on-line in December, so I can't say much that would be too enlightening..other than this: I ran an analysis with software on the consistently #1 ranked competitor and found the site had between 200 and 700+ links, depending on the search engine. Now, if I can just figure out how to get good mutual links that are not those of my competitors. Any ideas?

PhilC

01-30-2004, 10:10 PM

Well, you could offer to exchange links on your site (as above).

The main way that people use is to search on your main searchterms and find the sites that link to the top 20 or more results - provided that the results are relevant. Then get in touch with the linking sites and ask for a link or a link exchange.

janeth

01-30-2004, 11:08 PM

I agree with seafoam. My site was a pr0 less then a year ago and then it was a pr6 last month and a pr5 this month and will probley be a pr6 again next month.

I would rather be the only link on a pr5 site then one of a 1,000 on a pr8 site.

Just my two cents