PR, PageRank, and page ranking [Archive]

cbp

12-31-2003, 07:17 PM

There is a difference between PageRank (PR) and page ranking.

PR (from the toolbar) is a function of:
1. The number of links pointing to that page (not site)(the more the better)
2. The PR of the page that the link is from (higher the better)
3. The number of links also on the page that the link is from (the less the better)
4. There is nothing stopping Google crawling the page that the link is from (eg no robots.txt exclusion)
5. The link can be crawled direct to the site (eg no redirect or javascript)
6. The page that the link is from is in the Google index.

To improve PR, you need more links from other sites (simple as that). Higher PR pages with less links on them are better. But ALL links help. The only exception here is a link from a link farm or FFA links page that you reciprocate --> potential penalty.

Ranking of a page in the search results is different and is a mathematical function of over 100 things:
1. PR - this is a measure of the pages importance. The higher the PR (importance), the higher the page will rank. PR is determined as above. PR is based on the assumption that the more links there are to a page --> the more important the page must be (not necessarily a valid assumption)
2. Relevance - this is a measure of how relevant a page is in response to a search query. The more relevant a page is, the higher it will be ranked. Relevance is determined by many things - important ones seem to be keyword(s) in anchor text of incoming links, in the page title, in H tags, in meta description and having the highest keyword(s) density on the page (but not over ~10%).
3. The X factor - we do not know what this is yet, but it has been important since the Florida update. A lot of theories have been used to fit the facts, but testing does not necessarily support them all totally. (See this thread http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10802 )

The final ranking of a page is a mathematical calculation of the above (much simplified) ie PR (importance) x relevance x 'X' = final position in response to a keyword(s) search. Different weighting is given to different factors. There is also the theory re that certain keywords are filtered, so this could be factored in as well.

Many try to dismiss PR as not being important - it is still an important (but maybe small) part of the equation (ie it may not be weighted as heavily as in the past).

A low PR site can easily outrank a high PR site if it is more relevant to the search query.

CBP

BTW - HAPPY NEW YEAR ...

minstrel

12-31-2003, 07:43 PM

Wow! Nice summary, cbp.

I've bookmarked it for the next time a similar question is asked...

jaca

12-31-2003, 07:58 PM

Thank you cbp but I think you lost me in all of that. I understand the PR does not have anything to do with search engine positioning, from what you have said, then what is it a a 'page' that is ranked? Content/title/description, certainly isn't appearance from some of the sites I have seen. So is PR (say 4) fairly decent?

I also wanted to know why some of my page weren't ranked at all, and not indexed. I do have a site map.

I will reread what you said and see if it makes a bit more sense. Sorry this area is new to me.

Jan

minstrel

12-31-2003, 09:24 PM

Hi, Jan:

To summarize the summary, PageRank (PR) is what you see on that little bar in the Google Toolbar - it is basically a measure of how many webpages are pointing at your site (it's not just a simple count of those pages but generally speaking the more pages that link to your page, the higher your PR).

However, what determines whether you come in as #1, #27, or #3049 in any search listing isn't a direct reflection of PR since that is only one of the factors that determines how your page will show up in the search listings.

Also, it is common for different pages on your website to have different PR's - makes sense when you think about it - most links to your site would probably point to your home page and/or sitemap or site index, so those pages tend to have the highest PR. Pages that fewer people link to would have lower PR, and below a certain value combining number of links and relevancy of those links, a page on your site could have PR=0 even with your home page showing PR=5 or 6. That doesn't mean any pages with PR=0 aren't in Google's index, or even that they don't contribute to where and how those particular pages will show up in a search. It's also important to note that the PR bar only shows whole numbers, 1 to 10, but PR can have values such as 0.9999999 (which may show up as either a 0 or a 1 depending on who you listen to), AND that PR is not a linear scale but some sort of logarithmic or exponential scale, meaning that the higher you go, the harder it is to go any higher...

I hope that explanation helps... looking back, I'm not sure it will but at least I used slightly different words from cbp :o)

Hmmmmm...

To add to my explanation of PR, I was going to cite the example of pages like the privacy.htm page and the disclaimer.htm page on my site, since it seemed unlikely to me that anyone links to them (they are there to cover legal liabilities and to reassure visitors and the HONCode organization about my policy on privacy of visitors). However, the example doesn't work, although I swear it did as recently as a couple of months ago... odd...

My home page has a PR=4. So does my site map. main index page, and several other pages on my site, oddly including the two I thought would have few links. However, other pages (e.g., some of the individual articles, a page on homework resources for kids, etc.) have only PR=2 or PR=3.

Things that make you go hmmm... oh well... it doesn't alter the main point I was trying to make, which is that it's the PR of your primary pages that matters, and even more importantly where your site shows up in the search engine listings that really matters. If you have a decent sitemap and navigation system, once someone is on your site, they'll find the other pages...

jaca

12-31-2003, 10:25 PM

Hi Mistrel,

Thank you for your explanation. I feel like I must be in a "duh" mode as some of what you say makes sense while others does not.

So if I understand correctly, PR only relates to who is linking to you and has nothing to do with your ranking on a search engine. If that is the case, though, wouldn't a higher PR matter to a search engine or is it all in tags and content?

I'm sorry if I am sounding very 'dumb' here. I have been creating web sites for over 10 years now but have just recently discovered SEO and I am trying everything I can to get my site 'up there". So trying to understand is important.

Happy News Year's (btw we have lots of snow here and I hear none at your end).

Jan

cbp

12-31-2003, 10:57 PM

cbp

12-31-2003, 11:04 PM

Jan

Have a read of the article linked to in this thread:
http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10802

He speculates that final ranking is only 20% determined by on page optimization (ie title; H1; etc); 40% determined by PageRank and the other 40% by the Hilltop algo.

I have no idea where these figures come from or even if they are remotly accurate, but the do demonstrate the relative importance of PR to ranking in search results.

CBP

jaca

12-31-2003, 11:08 PM

Hi cbp,

Quote
PR has everything to do with your ranking in search engines. Its a small but important part of the formula that goes into the calculation when Google determines where to rank a page. It is one of the 100 or so factors that go into determining a ranking for any specific search query.

I am sorry if I am simply not understanding here. I do understand that PR is important but I don't understand how to increase it and if I do how it will help in search engines.

I must look into those "100 or so factors" if you could direct me where to look.

Thanks again and Happy New Year!

Jan

cbp

12-31-2003, 11:28 PM

I do understand that PR is important but I don't understand how to increase it and if I do how it will help in search engines.

See my first post - you increase it by getting more links to your site.

Consider PR as a multiplier - once Google has decided a page is relevant to search query it gives it a hypothetical relevance score based on how relevant Google interprets it to be(see my first post), it then multiplys this by the PR - the site with the highest combined score will be on top. If your PR is higher, your multiplier will be higher --> rank higher. (In reality it is much more complex than this). A highly relevant site with low PR --> does well. A very poorly relevant site with very high PR --> does well.

The other 100 factors consist of on- and off-page factors:

On-page factors are what I mentioned in first post (ie keyword(s) in title, H1 & H2 tags, in bold, in italics, etc) - this is the stuff that makes Google see the page as relevant (but you may be penalised for making a page appear too relevant, eg keyword stuffing). They seem to vary in importance over time (eg meta tag keywords are no use any more; keywords in alt tags used to be good, but now they are either ignored or attract a penalty if stuffed with too many keywords)

Off-page factors are the number of links to a site (ie PR); keywords in anchor text of links (this is probably one of the strongest ways of letting Google know what a page is about); links from authority/expert sites (especially if the Hilltop algo is in place)

When people (and Google) say there are a 100 or so factors taken into account, the above mentioned ones probably account for most of it - the other 90 or so are not as important.

CBP

fathom

01-01-2004, 07:45 AM

jaca while everything everyone has said is true - don't spend alot of time attempting to learn about PageRank (PR), or how to develop more... in all honesty it does not mean alot.

More importantly the PageRank guage PR1 - 10 (on the toolbar) means less - it simply describes where your page resides against all other pages Google has in its database... and this doesn't tell you alot.

Liken to a guage that measures how full your car's gas tank is by comparing you to all other cars on the road.

Simply submit yout site to directories and look for sites that would appeal to your visitors and request a link in exchange for one.

Your original questions (in post #1) specific 1 & 2 are very broad questions to ask - you will never get a definitive answer without writing a book... you should therefore read the backlog of threads and posts to help develop your appreciation to "ranking in search engines"... and if you come across something there that has you puzzled then ask about this specifically.

It is a big learning curve... but a worthwhile one.

jaca

01-01-2004, 01:39 PM

Thank you cbp and fathom.

As per your suggestion, I will do more reading. I will also look into link exchanges. I do have several membership links on my site, but I could certainly use more.

Thank you for all your help and Happy New Year.

Jan

verygreatful

01-05-2004, 06:21 PM

I don't think it is a good idea to join sites to get the so called 100's or thousands of hits due to link sharing. The only things you will surely get is hundreds of junk mail from each place. I wouldn't trade my pinky for a link sharing group.

ronniethedodger

01-05-2004, 07:42 PM

I will also look into link exchanges. I do have several membership links on my site, but I could certainly use more.

One way to work on your links, is to see who your competitors is linking to. The theory is that if the links are working for them, then they should work for you to.

Also every link you get that your competitor also has, is pulling them down and you up at the same time. This may be ever so slightly, but baby steps over the long haul turn out larger down the line.

Here is a good tool that I use to check link popularity with http://www.marketleap.com/publinkpop You can enter in 4 url's at a time and it will give you a report of all backlinks as reported from ATW, AV, Google, MSN, and HotBot/Inktomi.

Click on any of the links in the report and it will popup your link list. Go and get them. Some will be email submissions, some will have online forms. Start with the Google list first then on over to the others.

Be selective too. Go after sites like yours if you can. If it isnt like yours, but has a high PRed Link Page go for it. Otherwise keep on going, there are lots to go thru...so don't waste your time on it right now.

Make it a habit to set a few hours aside every week and do link request submissions. Then a seperate day for doing verifications. I find it easier to seperate the two. Verifications will be part of the process, cuz not all people will do the exchange...even if you have posted their link. Be patient though, they are just as busy as you are and it could take several days.

Don't ever stop this process...keep pluggin away at it. Heck if it is only one or two a week, that is one or two more that you did not have before. Some weeks you will manage to haul in a dozen or more of good quality.....don't gloat, keep moving...don't stop.

toasty

01-10-2004, 08:58 PM

I have started building a list of sites I would like to share links with, and several of them have a high PR (6+) for their homepages, but very few have good PR's on their links pages, which is where a link to my site will probably end up.

What does it mean when the homepage of a site is say, PR=8, and the links-page is PR=0?

Although PR is not the only factor I want to consider when building reciprocal links, will my site get penalized for being cited on webpages with PR=0? What about grey PR-bars?

Cheers!

cbp

01-11-2004, 01:23 AM

will my site get penalized for being cited on webpages with PR=0? What about grey PR-bars?

No. You can not be penalised by a site linking to you. The opposite is the case - you can be penalised for linking to what Google defines as a 'bad neighbourhood' or link farm.

If you could be penalised based on who links to your site, I would be setting up some dodgey site(s) and linking them to my competitors.

I recently heard of one idiot who signed 1000's of guest books with his competitors URL in an attempt to get him banned. While Google are probably discounting or devaluing or ignoring guest book links, they will not penalise for them for this very reason. The sad thing for this idiot is that he gave his competitor a big boost ...

CBP

toasty

01-11-2004, 02:34 AM

ronniethedodger wrote: Be selective too. Go after sites like yours if you can. If it isnt like yours, but has a high PRed Link Page go for it.
A large proportion of the sites I would like to link to have PR=0 for their links pages, but high PR values for their homepages (sometimes PR=9!). Should I avoid linking to these sites? Why / Why not?

If what you say is true cbp, than the PR of the page that is linking to my site doesn't matter; what matters is that the link I have on my site is pointing to a page on their site with a high PR. But isn't it better to have links pointing to my site that are coming from high PR-pages? Am I missing something here?

cbp

01-11-2004, 02:44 AM

than the PR of the page that is linking to my site doesn't matter

It does matter - the higher the better for you.

what matters is that the link I have on my site is pointing to a page on their site with a high PR

It does not matter to your site.

But isn't it better to have links pointing to my site that are coming from high PR-pages?

Yes. The higher the PR of the page that the link to you if from the better

See the second message in this thread.

CBP

minstrel

01-11-2004, 02:52 AM

flipper, you can think of it this way:

The "importance" of your site is determined by how many pages point to your site AND how high the PageRank (PR) of those pages is, so a high PR page pointing to your site can help you - a low PR or even zero PR may not do you any good but it won't 'penalize" you in any way - it can't "hurt" you.

On the other hand, for pages YOU link TO, the situation is different, sort of opposite - the fact that your site points to a high PR page won't help your site at all, although it won't hurt you either. But, if your site points to a "bad neighborhood" or "link farm" kind of site, that can definitely hurt you.

toasty

01-11-2004, 03:06 AM

Mel

01-11-2004, 06:46 AM

Ooooh... Ok, that makes sense!! Thanks, big help! But I'm still curious about how a site can have an awesome homepage rank and a PR=0 for their links-page. This seems quite common (1 out of 10 or so sites).

This too can make sense, when you link to a site do you link to the home page or the links page?

The home page nearly all the time I bet, just like almost everyone else,so there are more links to the home page and almost none to the links page.

More links = higher PR

minstrel

01-11-2004, 09:39 AM

To add to what Mel said, on any large site, PR will likely vary somewhat because it is based on the PAGE and not the site as a whole - if a site has a links page, this is probably the least likely page that someone else will link to.

On my 100-plus page site, my PR has varied up to 1 or 2 points for various topics but then I don't have a separate links page per se. One thing I noticed is trhat after placing a text link to my site map on the home page, there is less variation across the pages than previously - I don't know exactly what accounts for that: it may be something Google has changed or it may be mere coincidence but it's a fact.

Meenal

01-13-2004, 01:13 AM

So if I understand correctly, PR only relates to who is linking to you and has nothing to do with your ranking on a search engine.

PR has everything to do with your ranking in search engines. Its a small but important part of the formula that goes into the calculation when Google determines where to rank a page. It is one of the 100 or so factors that go into determining a ranking for any specific search query.

CBP

I am new to the concepts of page rank, search engine positioning etc. I am having a question here. When i perform google search for the keyword "web hosting indore", the first page listed has a page rank 0, whereas my page lying down 4th (www.vinfobiz.com/webhosting.htm ) has pr=3. Can someone tell me why this is so??

cbp

01-13-2004, 01:59 AM

Can someone tell me why this is so??

That what this thread is about....
Did you read my first message above? (second message in this thread)

The conslusion to the explanation given was:

A low PR site can easily outrank a high PR site if it is more relevant to the search query.

CBP

Mel

01-14-2004, 01:00 AM

Don't forget that search engines index pages not sites and that they record every link to a page on your site whether it is from an external site or from one of your own pages.

You can use this to your advantage (if you consider a High TPR as an advantage) by linking selectively between the various pages on your site. Nearly every page needs a link to the home page, but often not to other pages and especially to links pages. I like to provide a link only from my sitemap to the links page, and link the links page back to only the home page. The more pages you have in your site the better internal linking will work.

ronniethedodger

01-14-2004, 12:04 PM

You can use this to your advantage (if you consider a High TPR as an advantage) by linking selectively between the various pages on your site. Nearly every page needs a link to the home page, but often not to other pages and especially to links pages. I like to provide a link only from my sitemap to the links page, and link the links page back to only the home page. The more pages you have in your site the better internal linking will work.

So true Mel. Internal linking strategy and site organization is key. You can effectively control the PR throughout the site this way.

I like to think of organizing a site like a book. Your Home Page is the Table of Contents that has a link to the Site Map which is your Index. The site map link, as Mel stated, only needs to appear on the Home Page. It's sole purpose is to be quickly found by the spider and have an index of your entire site.

Breaking your site down into Chapters or main broad categories that do not get muddled in with others is very effective in controlling not only PR, but putting more emphasis on the content within that category.

Crosslinking of categories transfers the PR of that category. And along with that you transfer non-relative content meaning with it too. For instance, let's say you have a site that is about automobiles with Ford, Chevy, and Yugo car categories. Crosslinking your Yugo section with a Ford section is saying that Ford has something in reference with Yugos. It dilutes the importance of Ford just by virtue of having Yugo content links pointing at it.

Meenal

01-14-2004, 11:45 PM

cbp

01-15-2004, 12:04 AM

PR is on a log scale. For eg, you may have been 4.00001 and now you might be 3.99999 (the toolbar only shows 3 or 4). All it needs is for one of your links to be lost or one of them to have a reduction in PR and yours changes. Also, from what I understand, there is only a finite amount of PR to go around, so as the WWW expands, the amount available to each page reduces a minute amount.

There is only one way to increase PR --> GET MORE LINKS

CBP

ronniethedodger

01-15-2004, 12:05 AM

I've started reading more on page ranks. I would like to know why page rank changes? My page http://www.vinfobiz.com/webhosting.htm was having pr=4 initially, but somewhere around first week of jan it went down to 3. I haven't made any changes to links. Please let me know what went wrong on my part and how can i increase it.

You are probably teetering on a very low 4 and a very high 3 for that page. Minor fluctuations do take place on every update and will cause the PR to bounce between the two values. Also the PR on the Googlebar is only an approximation and not a true PR value. You really should not be too concerned about it, unless is goes to zero...then that is another story altogether.

Meenal

01-15-2004, 01:08 AM

Thanks. So from my understanding, getting more good links is the key.

giovanni

01-17-2004, 12:09 PM

Could you please advise me as I am still wet behind the ears on this site optimisation stuff.

I have seen the pagerank (from google) go fro 3/10 to 4/10 recently.

As I am relatively new to this, I take it that this is a good thing?

How does this help me? (If it helps at all that is)

Also, how important is the site name?

What I mean by this is that my sitename is www.doseuk.com and I am trying to sell t-shirts. I am trying to optimise my site for funny t-shirts and was wondering by having a site called 'funnyt-shirts.co.uk' for example (I am mainly trying for the UK market) would help the cause more that doseuk.

Thanks guys

Gio,

cbp

01-17-2004, 04:35 PM

have seen the pagerank (from google) go fro 3/10 to 4/10 recently As I am relatively new to this, I take it that this is a good thing?

Yes

How does this help me? (If it helps at all that is)

Consider, hypothetically, PR as a multiplier --> the higher the better - see some of the earlier messages in this thread for an explanation.

Also, how important is the site name?

Personally, I would not change it - as long as teh business name, title of page and text on page reflect the nature of your business --> no probs.

CBP

my74

01-17-2004, 09:01 PM

Here's my situation; My website holds the #1 position on several of my keywords. On the remaining keywords my site is listed on the first page. This is for all of the search engines with exception of Altavista who has completely dropped my website. My home page has a PR4. There are a few more pages on my site with a 4 but most have PR3.

So, I need this explained to me. Does PR really matter?

Thanks for your help!
Take care,
My74

cbp

01-17-2004, 09:33 PM

It dosen't matter if the keyword(s) is not competitive and sites that you are competing with are poorly on-page optimized.

It does matter if the keywords(s) are competitive and the sites you are competing with are well on-page optimised.

The the first you messages in this thread:
http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10923&start=0

CBP

my74

01-17-2004, 10:05 PM

Thanks!cbp,

I read the post you directed me to. I find all of this very confusing especially in regard to link exchange. I do have many links but google only counts 5. I feel all of the links I have would have some value to people who visit my website. Most of the links have pr4.One of the links google dismissed is DMOZ but they do show a link to the google directory. Color me confused!

I'm wondering, does the google algo penalize sites that have a domain name that is their main keyword?

cbp

01-17-2004, 10:46 PM

Google counts all the links it knows about in the PR calculation - it only shows a sample of the them in response to the link: request. Don't worry about that.

does the google algo penalize sites that have a domain name that is their main keyword

Doubt it or MacDonalds, Coca-cola, Mercedes etc would be penalised.

CBP

my74

01-18-2004, 07:02 AM

MacDonalds, Coca-cola, Mercedes etc would be penalised.

{{grin}},Please forgive my senior moment.

CBP, Thank you for your kindness. It seems the more I read the more confused I get!

Thanks again,
Mindy

April98

01-18-2004, 10:12 PM

I just found this board last week and I'm so greatful for all the helpful information I've read on it thus far.

My homepage has a pr of 5 and the rest of my pages look like they are at a pr of 4. The 5 just happened with the last time google went through and changed the rankings. What is amazing me and perplexing me is, how can I have a 5, if ranking is based on links, because I do not have very many links. I'm not complaining, by any means, but I'm wondering if there's something else that Google is factoring in to the pr figuring.

Another question-- I'm not too happy with the way I have my site set up, but I'm afraid to alter it at this point, for fear that it might drop my page rank. Could that happen? Anyone care to visit my humble site and make any suggestions for how I could improve the look without jeapordizing my ranking? Maybe I should post this second question to another board or new string.

Thank you!

cbp

01-18-2004, 10:19 PM

I can find ~10 good links to your site. All the ones i checked are from higher PR sites --> they pass on more PR to you --> hence your 5.

There is nothing you can do to change your site that would affect PR. PR is a mathematical calculation of incoming links, so as long as the URL stays the same this won't change.

The only change you can make to your site that MIGHT affect PR is if you make your site unatractive and not useful --> sites linking to you remove the links --> you loose PR.

HOWEVER - changes on your site may affect your ranking in the search results, hopefully for the better (see earlier posts in this thread)

CBP

minstrel

01-19-2004, 12:01 AM

Google indicates approximately 80 backlinks to your home page...

April98

01-19-2004, 11:18 AM

Google indicates approximately 80 backlinks to your home page...

Minstrel, how did you get Google to show you 80 backlinks? I only see 10 when I check. There probably are over 100, but I thought Google was only noticing 10, because that's all I see when I check them with the toolbar.

minstrel

01-19-2004, 11:35 AM

how did you get Google to show you 80 backlinks? I only see 10 when I check. There probably are over 100, but I thought Google was only noticing 10, because that's all I see when I check them with the toolbar.
The toolbar uses this syntax to find backlinks:
link:www.wyomingimpressions.com

That never has shown all the backlinks Google knows about but only what they call "a sample" - in your case, yesterday Google told me 10; today, Google tells me 11. The number does seem to fluctuate a bit normally.

If you use this synyax you get very different results:
+"www.wyomingimpressions.com"

which yesterday and today tells me that Google sees 80 back links (even that may not be the total numner in the Google index).

I believe that you'll get similar results from this syntax:
allinurl:www.wyomingimpressions.com

ronniethedodger

01-19-2004, 02:21 PM

I believe that you'll get similar results from this syntax:
allinurl:www.wyomingimpressions.com

That will show results with those words in the URL and not backlinks. Google actually ignores the puncuation in this type of search. It will report any and all url's in it's index with the words "www", "wyomingimpressions", and "com" in the actual url's. In effect this query will return all pages it has in it's index for those words which is 22 for her site.

Here is Google's page on these advanced searches and their meanings http://www.google.com/help/operators.html. One that seems to be missing from this is inanchor: which reports anchor text.

Here is the inanchor:+Wyoming +Impressions (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=inanchor%3A%2BWyoming+%2BImpressions&btnG=Google+Search) search at Google. This reports 258, but there is an author of a book by that name also....some of these belong to the book itself.

jg33

01-19-2004, 03:26 PM

Well, there is a lot of explanation here on PR. Thank you Minstrel for directing me here.

If my PageRank with google on my home page 5/10 and when I put in search in google for Articles on personal growth I end up number 2 and 3 in that search. Once I open to the number pagerank of that page it is ranked 5/10 in google tool bar but my number three page that opens is ranked 4/10 but the one after me the 4th on that search is ranked 5/10...

My question shouldn't that page be number 3 and me after?

Joseph

cbp

01-19-2004, 04:17 PM

My question shouldn't that page be number 3 and me after?

PR is only one factor in ranking.

Conisider PR as a multipler. Hypothetically for Google to determine where a page ranks it multiples PR by a hypothetical relevancy score (ie how relevant Google perceives a page is to the search (not how relevant you and I might think it is). A highly relevant page with low PR will outrank a less relevant page with high PR.

To complicate matters, it is not simply a matter of multiply PR by relevancy score (Google probably do not actually do it this way, but it is a good way to explain and understand it) - they also use some sort of third mutiplier - this is probably related to links from similar themed sites and links from authority/expert sites.

CBP

Mel

01-19-2004, 05:16 PM

I really think it may be a bit misleading to consider PR as a multiplier since that implies that it is more important than it is.

I like to think of PR as an additive, a small additive, perhaps equal to 1 or 2 percent of the total relevancy score, and really only useful in ranking where pages are very close in their scores, like breaking a tie between two pages.

Mel

01-19-2004, 05:25 PM

how did you get Google to show you 80 backlinks? I only see 10 when I check. There probably are over 100, but I thought Google was only noticing 10, because that's all I see when I check them with the toolbar.
...If you use this synyax you get very different results:
+"www.wyomingimpressions.com"

which yesterday and today tells me that Google sees 80 back links (even that may not be the total numner in the Google index)...

The main problem with this syntax is that it is a text search which only shows those occurences of text which show your URL on the page (they do not even have to be true links to show) and that it does not show the really important links - those which use the anchor text syntax.

I assume that Google indexes as many or more pages than Alltheweb and thus should know about most links that Alltheweb knows about so the links that ATW shows for a site may be a better approximation than a text search for the words in the URL.

cbp

01-19-2004, 07:13 PM

I like to think of PR as an additive, a small additive, perhaps equal to 1 or 2 percent of the total relevancy score

And you base that on...?

I referenced in another thread research that put the weighting of PR at 40%; relevancy (ie on page factors) at 20% and the remaining 40% on other linking factors (eg Local page rank; links from expert/authority sites; themed links)

I am not saying I agree with that research (as no detail was given for how those figures were arrived at).

How did you get the 1-2%

CBP

minstrel

01-19-2004, 09:30 PM

Mel

01-19-2004, 09:37 PM

Hi CBP
I have no detailed research to back up this figure but it is derived from analyzing thousands of pages to try to see how they got their rankings.

Certainly we can see that PR is not a big factor if you look at the number of low PR pages that rank well for competitive phrases,and the number of High PR pages that do not rank well and we can see that inbound anchor text by itself is enough to get top rankings for very competitive phrases regardless of PR, though the last point is not very apparent as most pages which have high anchor text scores usually have decent PR since they have many inbound links.

If PR were a 40% factor then any decent page with good PR would be able to rank top, but that is not the case.

IMO there is not a breakdown in the Google Algo that assigns so much weight to a given area, but google tells us that there are at least 100 factors that they use in ranking a page. I assume that the value of each of these factors added together.

If you look at the local rank patent you will see there that it works by getting relevancy rankings and then adding the Local rank score to that. It would be strange if PageRank were a multiplier and LocalRank an additive factor.

We do know from the published papers that PR is a precomputed figure and that the orignal Google paper says
Google maintains much more information about web documents than typical search engines. Every hitlist includes position, font, and capitalization information. Additionally, we factor in hits from anchor text and the PageRank of the document. Combining all of this information into a rank is difficult. We designed our ranking function so that no particular factor can have too much influence. First, consider the simplest case -- a single word query. In order to rank a document with a single word query, Google looks at that document's hit list for that word. Google considers each hit to be one of several different types (title, anchor, URL, plain text large font, plain text small font, ...), each of which has its own type-weight. The type-weights make up a vector indexed by type. Google counts the number of hits of each type in the hit list. Then every count is converted into a count-weight. Count-weights increase linearly with counts at first but quickly taper off so that more than a certain count will not help. We take the dot product of the vector of count-weights with the vector of type-weights to compute an IR score for the document. Finally, the IR score is combined with PageRank to give a final rank to the document.

We now have a statement that says that no one factor is give too much weight, Google has said that it ranks pages base on at least a hundred different factors and that page rank is added at the end of other computations.

If PR were a 40% factor then Google would have to have deviated substantially from the original concepts, particlarly the one that says no single factor is given too much weight.

As to the 2% figure that is just my best guess after looking at thousands of pages.

Mel

01-19-2004, 10:53 PM

re: +"www.wyomingimpressions.com"

The main problem with this syntax is that it is a text search which only shows those occurences of text which show your URL on the page (they do not even have to be true links to show) and that it does not show the really important links - those which use the anchor text syntax.
Perhaps so, but (1) it is a better indicator than link:www.wyomingimpressions.com and (2) it tells you that at least those links are in the Google database.

I assume that Google indexes as many or more pages than Alltheweb and thus should know about most links that Alltheweb knows about so the links that ATW shows for a site may be a better approximation than a text search for the words in the URL.
If all is well with your site and you are placing about where you should be, again perhaps so... but it IS an assumption and not one I would be comfortable making if I was trying to track a problem with a site or whether or how it was indexed in Google. To me that's like looking at your Google listing and saying, "I wonder how many backlinks Google knows about?" and then going to Yahoo or AltaVista to answer the question - you need a leap of faith to draw the necessary parallels.

Google has long been stingy about reporting backlinks, for reasons that we can guess at but don't really know... so what we do instead is find the best ways to estimate the actual number.

Well... Yes and No Minstrel. I understand your reluctance to assume that both engines are finding the same links, but that after all is what they are designed to do and both of them seem to do it fairly well.

We are both trying to find the best way to estimate the actual number of links to the site and that is exactly what the ATW link search is doing.Granted some of them may not be in the Google index, but Google does not give us that information usually.

The +"url.com" form of search is a regular text search and it does not report links, just the occurances of the URL text on a page, hyperlinked or not, and it does not mean that those occurances of text are listed in the Google database as links,though I believe that most of them should be, IF they are hyperlinks.

But more importantly, that search never reports anchor text links which are the most important of all links, which says to me that using that text search to find links is making a very big assumption that you are anywhere near correct, but I guess you are likely to be on the safe side, since it will never report the anchor text links and thus the number reported will be lower than the actual figure. You could use the text search for links and get a reported zero when actually there are dozens of anchor text links to the page.

I do make a fairly big assumption when I assume that there are no great differences in the links indexed at Google and those at Alltheweb. They both use the same methods of crawling and have similar sized databases. My experience has been that ATW always shows a significantly higher number of links than Google so you are getting more information about your links.

With the ATW information you have a list of the actual pages that link to your site in any way. You can use this information for finding pages willing to link to your competitors that you won't find in Google for instance. If you could find a case where Google reported no links but ATW did, then that might be the solution to why a page has no PR, but it could and should be easily corrected by submitting that link to Google to crawl.

janeth

01-19-2004, 11:18 PM

I did not read all the thread looks like you have one heck of a topic going though.

Mel
I think that there is nothing that will beat good incoming links with good key words in those links. Since links also build up your pr and since you do not think pr really matters other then to break a tie what would you say hold more weight then incoming links?

Mel

01-21-2004, 11:23 AM

Hi Janeth

I think there is nothing more conducive to a good Google ranking than anchor text links, but links from expert or authority sites are becoming more important since the Florida update, so I guess I would say that anchor text from expert sites is the most powerful.

I like to illustrate the power of anchor text with the search term computers, which returns 65 million pages in the results, but where the top three ranking sites do not use that keyword anywhere but in anchor text.

Pizza is another search which returns 9 million pages, but the word pizza is only used in the #1 site (Pizza Hut) in the url and company name.

minstrel

01-21-2004, 11:37 AM

I think there is nothing more conducive to a good Google ranking than anchor text links... I like to illustrate the power of anchor text with the search term computers, which returns 65 million pages in the results, but where the top three ranking sites do not use that keyword anywhere but in anchor text.

Pizza is another search which returns 9 million pages, but the word pizza is only used in the #1 site (Pizza Hut) in the url and company name.
Mel... doesn't the second quoted paragraph negate the first?

Mel

01-21-2004, 11:54 AM

Not quite sure what you mean David, but perhaps that is not written clearly, I did not mean to imply that they did not have lots of inbound links, just that they did not use the search term visibly on the page except in the URL and the small print at the bottom of the page. IMO this shows that their ranking for this competitive term had very little to do with onpage factors.

You can put my fuzzier than usual writing down to a dose of the Flu.

Pizza hut has held the number 1 ranking for the search term pizza for years and they do it by the simple trick of giving one pizza per month away to one of the sites which link to them resulting in lots in inbound links (alltheweb reports more than 82,000 links).

using the allinanchor:pizza search in google ranks Pizzahut #1 out of 8,890,000 pages so you can be sure there are plenty of anchor text links with the word pizza in them linking to pizza hut.

minstrel

01-21-2004, 12:10 PM

Pizza hut has held the number 1 ranking for the search term pizza for years and they do it by the simple trick of giving one pizza per month away to one of the sites which link to them resulting in lots in inbound links (alltheweb reports more than 82,000 links).
Thanks...

re: this Pizza Hut story... I have never heard this and (I'm not attacking your personal credibility here, by the way, just to make that clear) it sounds like the sort of "urban myth" or "urban legend" story that goes around often enough so that people believe it's true - it seems a bit unlikely to me, frankly... do you know of any evidence for this?

janeth

01-21-2004, 06:03 PM

I will give them a link if they can get me a free hot pizza every month.

Mel

01-21-2004, 10:35 PM

HI David
There is plenty of evidence to substantiate the fact that Pizzhut.com has plenty of inbound links:
go to ATW,enter pizzahut.com and click the sites that link to pizzahut link.

You will get a list of of over 55,000 sites that link to Pizzahut, and most seem to have no real reason to link there except that perhaps they just like thier pizza?

I cannot prove this contention, but it is reported in several respected sites, is supported by the 55,000+ sites that link to it (the second ranking pizza restaurant Dominos, has 20,000 links less).If Pizzahut don't use such a scheme they should if they want to retain thier number on ranking. I would gladly exchange a $14 pizza every month for 55,000 inbound links.

Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?

ronniethedodger

01-21-2004, 11:25 PM

I would gladly exchange a $14 pizza every month for 55,000 inbound links.

Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?

I can give you one reason partner....that would be $14 per link. This would run them to the tune of $777,000 per month. You do the math...and tell me if I am wrong.

One could argue that not all of them are bought and pizza-ed for. But still -- that is a lot of dough! ;0)

And how would they cover something like that up. It would have spread like a brushfire in the Santa Anita winds in Southern California. People would have passed that deal on to their friends quickly....at least to the point of at least you knowing at least one site owner who can make that claim. Do you know of any body who trades links for pizza? I don't....does anybody else? I don't think so.

Pizza Hut has a pretty good Internet Marketing machine behind it. As well as an Advertising machine. Most of those links are probably paid for in Sponsored listings, PPC, and directory listings that get reprinted out of DMOZ from one new site to the next with some new fandangled way of trying to make money. Then others are on personal websites, blogs, and weird search query uri's from some search engine site.

People are linking to Pizza Hut...because it is damn good pizza (IMO). Not quite as good as one of them fancy pizzeria places. But it is a damn site better than Domino cardboard and tomato paste chewies. If you are ever out of town and have a hankering for pizza...that darn Hut sign is easy to spot.

Now they may be linking there for the Free Coupons that you can print out from their site too. I always look for them in the Ad-Pac so I can get a couple of large stuffed crust supremes for about $14 (including delivery). You cannot find a deal better than that....you can even order these suckers online now and get the coupon price. Hell, you don't even need the stupid coupon -- when you call in to the local Hut and order the two large stuff crust supremes, just tell them that you have the stupid coupon.....they never ask for it when they arrive with the boxes.

This one may have been bought for though Kid Stuffing his Face at Pizza Hut (http://www.k3nhc.org/pics/2003-04/pizzahut/MOV01312.MPG)

minstrel

01-21-2004, 11:36 PM

processor

01-22-2004, 08:28 AM

cbp

01-22-2004, 03:05 PM

Is linking to pages with PageRank of 0 is bad for optimization for google, then what of putting one's link on these here very forums, which have a pagerank of 0!?

No, unless they are banned.

Craig

Chad Jones

01-23-2004, 03:11 AM

Mel

01-23-2004, 05:47 AM

HI Ronnie
Thats not one pizza per month to every site that links to them thats one pizza per month period give to one of the sites that links.

Total cost of 55,000 links $14 per month.

Mel

01-23-2004, 05:52 AM

Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?
That's rather like asking, "do you have evidence that crop circles are NOT created by aliens?", or "do you have evidence that creatures from other planets are NOT living among us?".

Pizza Hut is a large and popular fast food organization in the US and Canada - and they spend a lot of money on advertising. The fact that they are well know on the web or even that a lot of people link to their site doesn't impress me as evidence that they are using some special trick to achieve that.

I think you are rather streching the point Minstrel, since equating aliens to pizza is not exactly logical to my mind.

If you have a problem with the statement I'll be happy to retract it if there is a good reason for doing so, but IMO there must be some reason that 55,000 people link to that particular pizza site instead of to some other don't you think?

Mel

01-23-2004, 05:56 AM

Is linking to pages with PageRank of 0 is bad for optimization for google, then what of putting one's link on these here very forums, which have a pagerank of 0!?

white rabbit
http://... err, hesitating.. ah shucks, have it in the signature anyway, I'm sure there will be a perfectly great explanation..

The difference is that a sig link on this page is a link from this page to your page, not a link to a PRO page.

Links from and site can never hurt you, since if they could it would be a piece of cake to set up a PR0 page and put all your competitors out of business by linking to them

minstrel

01-23-2004, 07:40 AM

Just don't do it. The only reason a site will be PR0 is if it is extremely new, has no inbound links (even from other pages on the site) or it's banned. Since you have no way to know if a site is banned besides the PR0, just don't ever link to a PR0 page and remove any existing links to PR0 pages.
PR=0 doesn't mean your page has been banned and PR=0 is not the same as no PR. PR=0 is not even exactly the same as PR=0, if you're determining this by the Google toolbar - it just means that the PR is very low. If a page is really banned, it will likely show a greyed out PR bar and will not be found in the Google index, in spite of being listed there previously.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that a site with a near zero PR is a bad one to link to - especially if it's a new site.

minstrel

01-23-2004, 07:45 AM

I think you are rather streching the point Minstrel, since equating aliens to pizza is not exactly logical to my mind.

If you have a problem with the statement I'll be happy to retract it if there is a good reason for doing so, but IMO there must be some reason that 55,000 people link to that particular pizza site instead of to some other don't you think?
First, the aliens analogy was a response to your request that I prove your claim to be wrong - my point was that that is unscientific - if you are making a claim, the onus is on you to provide evidence that it is correct.

My point about the popularity of Pizza Hut and their wide advertising campaign in North America is that this would account for all those links without the need for unsubstantiated claims of "free pizzas" - they are among the top two or three best known pizza chains in North America.

If you prefer a different kind of example, would you suggest that Microsoft ranks highly because they give away free software? or Hewlett-Packard because they give away free printers?

Mel

01-23-2004, 09:48 AM

Minstrel

Ok Minstrel I'll bite - why is it that you think that an advertising campaign (I don't know how big theirs is do you?) resulted in about 80% more links for this one pizza chain than for others who appear to have an equally big advertising budget?

Mel

01-23-2004, 09:57 AM

Is linking to pages with PageRank of 0 is bad for optimization for google, then what of putting one's link on these here very forums, which have a pagerank of 0!?

Just don't do it. The only reason a site will be PR0 is if it is extremely new, has no inbound links (even from other pages on the site) or it's banned.

Since you have no way to know if a site is banned besides the PR0, just don't ever link to a PR0 page and remove any existing links to PR0 pages.

Google has such a slow feedback loop, if you find yourself penalized you may be out of business for months. It's just not worth the risk.

Personally I prefer the term penalized, since banned sort of implies that the site has been dropped from the Google index.

I guess you can get banned,though I think its a very rare occurance, and that would result in a TPR of zero, but a penalized site can also have a TPR of zero but it can still have lots of pages in the index.

smargenau

01-23-2004, 11:19 AM

I have read that links to your site must be similar or relevant to your industry in order to ad value to your PR -- Is this true?

Additionally, I have read about setting up multiple links, even related, to said web site for $10-$15 per link. How can I start this process...any ideas?

Thanks!

Mel

01-24-2004, 02:20 AM

Hi Scott:

Depends on what you mean by 'add value'.

All links from any page add to a pages PageRank, but the recent Google algo change seems to like inbound links from 'expert sites' should always be on topic with your site.

There are plenty of sites that will sell you links to your pages, but I personally avoid them if at all possible, You can get links to your site in many other ways at no cost.

If you buy links from sites which make a business of selling links, you should be aware that the value of such links can be very small PR wise if there are many links on a page, and that Google may decide to ignore or even penalize such links. You should also be aware that many of these sites are just plain out and out scam artists who sell you the link but then code the link in such a way that the search engines will not know about it.

I would advise against it.

janeth

01-24-2004, 01:19 PM

fathom

01-24-2004, 03:55 PM

cbp

01-25-2004, 10:20 PM

Been away for a few days, so missed these posts.

1) PR=0 is not acutally PR=0, it is the PR <1

2) I do not think that Google are themeing PR. I think PR is the same as its always been. BUT, what maybe different is that they have could have added into the mix of the ranking formula (not the PR formula) extra weight for certain links (eg themed; expert/authority)

CBP

Mel

01-25-2004, 10:34 PM

but the recent Google algo change seems to like inbound links from 'expert sites' should always be on topic with your site.

There is little evidence that Google is theming PageRank.

PageRank is a measurement of importance to the web (as Google knows it)... there is one and only one scale 0 - 1 and every page fits into the scaled measurement.

Therefore an SEO that got a link from a coffee shop and a coffee shop that got a link from Maxwell House is the same thing (from purely a PageRank perspective).

I am not saying the the PR is being themed but that the algo seems to prefer links from expert pages.

But have you looked at Googles Topic Sensitive PageRank patent?

While you may be correct that True PageRank (as opposed to the Toolbar PR) is in that range, the original Pagerank paper states that the average of all PR is 1, thus implying that there is PR above and below the value of one. This would not be possible if all PR was in the range 0-1, but if you have something that shows your numbers are correct I would be most intersted to know about it.

Different links have different weight depending on the PR of the linking page and the number of outbound links, so I would have a hard time agreeing with the statement that these links are the same. They MIGHT be but most likely are NOT from PR perspective.

Mel

01-25-2004, 10:47 PM

Hi Mel,

It depends on the site your buying the link from. We will be buying a link this year for $299.00 from a site I'm sure you have herd of called Yahoo.

Since it is not on there main searches and it is hiden inside there site I would say the only reason for buying the link is for the pr.

Hi Janeth
If you want to spend $299 for a link from Yahoo it doesn't bother me one bit, but if you are buying it for PR purposes as opposed to a link from an expert site, then IMO you are buying it for the wrong reason.

If you list your site in the G section of Web designers at Yahoo you will get a link from a PR5 page with more than 350 outbound links so the PR contribution to your page is going to be quite small.

cbp

01-26-2004, 02:34 AM

http://www.pr10.com/

CBP

fathom

01-26-2004, 06:37 AM

2) I do not think that Google are themeing PR. I think PR is the same as its always been. BUT, what maybe different is that they have could have added into the mix of the ranking formula (not the PR formula) extra weight for certain links (eg themed; expert/authority)

Would wholeheartedly agree with that... and might well have been what Mel was referring to... we need however to be very clear in our posts as someone will come along and read verbatim - and a mis-statement is now fact.

janeth

01-26-2004, 06:52 AM

Hi cbp,

cbp wrote
http://www.pr10.com/

I love that I knew there was a web site like that somewhere that people was getting information from.
lol

Mel

01-26-2004, 08:15 AM

http://www.pr10.com/

CBP

So that's where all that kind of information comes from

jackson992

01-26-2004, 02:33 PM

How does something like this get published without the webmaster getting in trouble?

cbp

04-09-2004, 07:22 PM

I am bumping up this thread as there have been a lot of questions in teh last few days re PR and the ranking of a page.

CBP

bathrobe

06-25-2004, 10:18 PM

As cbp says, there have been a lot of questions about PR and the ranking of a page.

I started a thread on the same topic (see http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=22945) which failed to generate much interest, relating to experience within my own site: a page with PR=0 ranked at page 5 in search results on a specific term, pages with PR=2 were virtually off the radar screen (one came in at page 9, the rest were ranked so low that it wasn't worth looking for them any further).

cbp did answer that in a fashion, but I'm not totally happy with his/her explanation.

Then the following observation earlier in this thread caught my attention:

Certainly we can see that PR is not a big factor if you look at the number of low PR pages that rank well for competitive phrases,and the number of High PR pages that do not rank well and we can see that inbound anchor text by itself is enough to get top rankings for very competitive phrases regardless of PR, though the last point is not very apparent as most pages which have high anchor text scores usually have decent PR since they have many inbound links.

Precisely!

In my case, the one inbound link to the PR=0 page does not help its page rank very much, but does, it appears, help boot it up high in the rankings!.

The PR=2 pages, on the other hand, have a better PR despite the lack of inbound links, but do poorly on a search on the most important keyword!

This is perhaps what puzzles me most.

fathom

06-25-2004, 11:34 PM

Then the following observation earlier in this thread caught my attention:

Certainly we can see that PR is not a big factor if you look at the number of low PR pages that rank well for competitive phrases,and the number of High PR pages that do not rank well and we can see that inbound anchor text by itself is enough to get top rankings for very competitive phrases regardless of PR, though the last point is not very apparent as most pages which have high anchor text scores usually have decent PR since they have many inbound links.

Precisely!

In my case, the one inbound link to the PR=0 page does not help its page rank very much, but does, it appears, help boot it up high in the rankings!.

The PR=2 pages, on the other hand, have a better PR despite the lack of inbound links, but do poorly on a search on the most important keyword!

This is perhaps what puzzles me most.

People focus on PagRank because it is the only "tangible" thing that you can actually see to make sense of things besides the ranked results itself (which is of course what we all want).

Because there is nothing else "visible" to aid our thought processes we do whatever it takes to generate more visual tangibility (thus the green in the toolbar) no matter how misguided the development is -- we can see it, it must be good.

Be that as it may a link from a less than PR1 page (thus PR0 visibly) can produce more if all the other factors are better... and since there tends to be 100 consideration (as Google suggests) and they all must be worth something... PageRank over here and all other 99 over there...

hmmm... when we were kids and got to go to the store, would you prefer 1 penny or 99 cents to spend - comes to mind! :-)

Pedro Rodriguez

09-30-2004, 06:04 PM

I am new to the concept of page ranking. I just downloaded the Google toolbar and now can see page ranking. I have a couple of questions.

1. How do I get all my pages on my site ranked?

2. How can I increase the rank?

3. Why are sites higher on the search and yet have a lower page rank.

Thanks and Happy New year!

Jan

1.-It is not the same a apge to appear positioned well in the searches for a keyword search that a high PageRank. PR is a factor of relations into links into pages. However, about 100 factor Google use to positioned your page for keyword search.

2.-The PR? You need some inbound quality links to your pages.

3.-A page can be #1 and have a PR=0. As commented there are around 100 factors Google considers to position you page. Also you neeed to compare the factors with the competitors pages.

Pleas, look at this well topic about some factors changed in Google Algorithm (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=28897) in the last month.