Dear Google!

[rocky1]

Having listened to everyone's complaints concerning the recent Google two-step, and having just now noticed it's again in the works boys and girls, so you better go check! I think it's about time we all got together and comprised one great big chain letter, and sent it to the folks at Google, to inquire as to the working nature of their algorithms. Then maybe they could explain how you are supposed to design for a search that is finding things that aren't there to be searched for, and for sites that are now non-existent!

And, thus.....





Dear Google,

Could you please explain to me, how a site with a 4/10 page rank, that does not contain even one incidence of the term "ND", can be found 4 spots ahead of a site that is ranked 6/10 with one incidence of "ND", in a search for "ND Fishing".

Better yet Google! Please explain how a site for a Small Town Motel ranked 0/10 with only 1 incidence of "ND" and four counts of "fishing" on the page, outranks the aforementioned 6/10 ranked site!

Not to be facetious about this, but while you're at it Google... Maybe you can explain how the #1 visited website in the entire state of North Dakota, carrying a hit count that exceeds it's next closest competitor of any nature, by a margin of 3 - 4 to 1, can be ranked 4/10 to begin with. Said site with 5 "ND"s on the page, 8 "Fishing"s on the page, and "Fishing" in their Domain Name, currently falls behind a site that is ranked 3/10, having only 1 "ND" on the page and only 4 "Fishing"s on the page, whilst their Domain Name is "Eastbay Campground."

Topping the list of questions here Google, would be how you people ranked a site that is not even existent, aka "FILE NOT FOUND", "!Sorry we could not find the website you're looking for!", etc. on the first page, at #10, right behind the #1 website in the state of ND, of any nature, which just happens to be about ND Fishing, and which as previously described is poorly ranked to begin with. Said site has a cache file that contains no graphics; the Google info up top indicates that there was NO indication of "ND" anywhere on that page either, only one incidence of the word "Fishing", and the site's Domain Name is "outdoorregs".

I mean really Google! If page rank is supposedly what you determine the importance of a given site to be, in relation to the search string offered. Wouldn't you think a search for ND Fishing, should be about ND Fishing and shouldn't the terms in the search string at least be included on the site, rather than supposedly mentioned in a link contained someplace else!

My "ND & Other Fishing Links" (http://www.rtfi.us/fishing_links.htm) page, was just recently found by your spiders in the last Google Dance that aggravated so many. It was thereafter optimized for search by your firm, and is currently Page Ranked by Google, 4/10. It contains "ND Fishing" in the title, 12 cases of "ND" scattered about the page, 21 cases of "fishing" scattered about the page, it contains hundreds of outbound links to other fishing related sites, and has numerous reciprocal links back to it; yet still it just fell completely out of site. Off the radar entirely! I considered that given the content, it might be construed as a spammed page, but it's not, it is exactly what it is, exactly what it always has been in fact; a links page! And, you guys pulled it out of nowhere, and listed it to begin with. The few changes I made in optimizing the page, served only to move it from #12 to #6. And, it surely is more relevant in respect to Fishing in ND, than any small town motel website.

In closing, might I inquire what kind of mind altering substances, the crew that designed the current algorithm was on, when they designed it? I mean really Google, if a page must be non-existent, or not contain the keywords found in the Search String to be found, how is one supposed to design it for being found on your search engine?

Sincerely,
Rocky Thomas
Webmaster - Rocky Thomas Fishing Industries (http://www.rtfi.us)

[awall19]

PageRank is simply a measure of OVERALL web popularity, not subject specific popularity.

Anchor text and third party website linking play a major role in your rankings. If they have better anchor text from sites more relevant to the local web community...then its not hard for a PR 2 site to beat a PR 7 site.


numerous reciprocal links


12 cases of "ND" scattered about the page, 21 cases of "fishing" scattered about the page

Perhaps your optimization is hurting you...deoptimize it some. If you trip a spam filter that can be your problem!

[ronniethedodger]

Aaron - I think Rocky was being more "satirical" with the letter than making an actual statement. He was just pulling your Bullwinkle. ;0)

Rocky is a lot of things, but not insane. No sane person would send a letter off to Google accusing their algo writers of using mind-altering drugs such as Elmers Glue and the like -- unless said letter writer is also been known to sniff Elmers himself.

Those of us who know Rocky quite well also know him to have experimented with eating school paste while a child, but he grew up to be a well adjusted kid on the whole. Although he did go through a period of North Dakota cornsilk smoking once....but he never did inhale. ;0)

[rocky1]

Thanks awall19,

RTD is correct to a point, it was satirical! In fact I posted it in the Break room and one of the moderators felt I should join or maybe interject the fun over here. Had a heck of a time finding that post too! Not that I wouldn't send it, mind you, just to see what they said, but....

The situation is... the page in question was not even remotely optimized to begin with, in fact it wasn't even properly established as a page when Google first found it. I had simply been playing with the page, putting links together, and threw it on the site for safe keeping.

It had no meta tags whatsoever! We're talking no keywords, no description, no "meta=" anything, it was a blank html page simply <html> & <head> at top of the page. Wherein the only content was the title and the link calling the external CSS. The page title was in fact still reading "CSS_Template" in the html, and on the page it was simply reading "Links". There was nothing but outbound links on the page at that point, the reciprocal in-bound links came after the fact, and content on the page was not at all optimized for a "ND Fishing" search string.

In the late November Google Shuffle, the page was on and off the charts every other day, for about a week, at which time it was hitting page 2, at #12, every time it showed up. And, in that it was being found, I elected to optimize that page for the "ND Fishing" search, since I can't get anything else on my "ND Fishing" site found, for "Anything Fishing", "ND" or otherwise.

Changes included the addition of Meta Tags, a Proper Page Title, and optimization of page content, to include a few extra "ND"s, and I stuck the "ND Fishing" in the title for good measure. The page moved to #6 with those changes, and has sat there for about 4 weeks now. And, mysteriously in the last day or two, it has fallen out of the top fifty again. I've yet to do a search to see if it's found at all, but suspect it isn't, as prior to the November shake up, it wasn't.

Would maybe agree with your suggestion that I'm probably getting booted on the spam filters, and thus de-optimizing may be the answer. But... that goes back to my last rhetorical question in the above letter, and that is how do you optimize a page without including the content for which the search is targeted. And, why didn't the filters kick it out right off the bat?

Per your comments on in-bound links, as I pointed out, the one site now seen at #13, I believe it was, is a small town motel. The community has all of about 1400 residents, and there are maybe 20 businesses in the community with web sites. It's a rural setting and links outside the community to that motel are extremely limited. Knowing the surrounding area, potential relevant sites that might benefit them in a search for anything "ND Fishing" are limited to maybe a half dozen. Yet they show ahead of ND Outdoors which has hundreds of links back to their site from other relevant sites, so I had found the links inbound option hard to swallow.

In review of another site I recently did some SEO work on, although I found that site climbing, I likewise found several of their competitors taking a severe beating on Lycos, Euroseek, and AOL. So there is another shake up underway out there. In fact it was that finding that prompted review of my site, which resulted in the above letter.

I do graciously appreciate the input and support, awall! And, by all means, feel free to add your comments to the list of concerns on the part of algo writers if you be so inclined!

Rocky

[janeth]

Hi Rocky,
When did you see the change on Google start?

It could end up back where you started before it is all over.

[rocky1]

Hi Janeth!

Fancy meeting on a thread like this! Oh Yes....

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

I seem to think I missed you in granting Christmas wishes to all the folks around the Break Room. You must have been hiding or I was too busy granting wishes and dipping into Mikmik's egg nog one.

----------------

As for the Google issue, not sure when it transpired. I looked at it middle of last week sometime, but don't for the life of recall when, I think it was on Christmas Eve, and was still there. Then today I was checking to see if there had been any change in status of the other site I was working on, and noticed the shift in their competitors' sites on the other engines. That prompted review of my own to see what had transpired on those engines when I discovered the Google issue. I was lost altogether on Google and of course several others they supply search results for.

[janeth]

For web site design I think I have droped to something like number 102

In I think the top 20 21 22 there where three chinese sites that had no English on them at all.

The only thing that would make since here is that Google is putting more weight on incoming links then they did before.

But still there not even English

[rocky1]

As stated above, link for Garrison Motel can't have more than a half dozen links related to fishing. Whereas the noddakoutdoors.com that it has beat in placement likely has several hundred, therefore that reasoning made no sense either. Not sure what this algo is, but it has no rythm if you ask me.

[ronniethedodger]

For web site design I think I have droped to something like number 102

In I think the top 20 21 22 there where three chinese sites that had no English on them at all.

The only thing that would make since here is that Google is putting more weight on incoming links then they did before.

But still there not even English

Eight of the top ten for "website design" has directory listings in Google. The Chinese site was at #20, but there was only one there. I tried "web site design" also.

One thing I am noticing is there seems to be a lot more variety now. Not too much repetiveness. An example of what I mean by repetiveness is like those hundreds of As Seen on TV sites, all with the same text. It seems to be whittling a lot of those out, picking one as a representative example, then canning the rest.....does this make sense?

Most of these are quickly slam-bam put together sites with no backlinks coming in -- yet they make it to the top. But a lot of it is not as competitive as "website design" -- there are close to 8,000,000 results for that one.

The interesting thing I saw was that those top 8 of the 10 had the directory category listed with the result also. They ranged from 5 or 6 different categories also. So even the directory results were varied.

But the representative directory result sites were not in the top results of their respective directories themselves. If you clicked on the directory link in the results, you would expect to see them up at the top of the directory....but not true.

The strangest part was the number one result for this keyword...it was not listed in the Google directory and it only has 117 backlinks reported. The url of the page the result pointed to is a PR6 page....but....there is barely anything on that page.

[rocky1]

One thing I am noticing is there seems to be a lot more variety now. Not too much repetiveness. An example of what I mean by repetiveness is like those hundreds of As Seen on TV sites, all with the same text. It seems to be whittling a lot of those out, picking one as a representative example, then canning the rest.....does this make sense?

Almost agree with that one Ronnie, as the stuff on the ND Fishing search is pretty much all new! Only two sites remain at top of the list with two entries each; and folks those are not Optimized, they are both government sites and are appointed there solely on page content! One is the ND Game & Fish Website, the other is the U.S. Geological Survey website, both of which list the word fishing repeatedly throughout the page, in covering regulations and fish contained in the lakes of ND.


Most of these are quickly slam-bam put together sites with no backlinks coming in -- yet they make it to the top. But a lot of it is not as competitive as "website design" -- there are close to 8,000,000 results for that one.

Multiply that times 3 and you've got the headaches I've got for "Fishing", that is why we went "ND Fishing" because there are only about 3 - 4 million pages there to contend with, most of which the webmaster probably wouldn't know what a search engine was if bit him in the asspirations of grandeur he has for his web site.


The interesting thing I saw was that those top 8 of the 10 had the directory category listed with the result also. They ranged from 5 or 6 different categories also. So even the directory results were varied.

Maybe that's how the hotel and campground sites are sneaking in on the ND Fishing string, will have to go look at that one.


But the representative directory result sites were not in the top results of their respective directories themselves. If you clicked on the directory link in the results, you would expect to see them up at the top of the directory....but not true.

Obviously the case with the Garrison Motel as well at a PR=0!


The strangest part was the number one result for this keyword...it was not listed in the Google directory and it only has 117 backlinks reported. The url of the page the result pointed to is a PR6 page....but....there is barely anything on that page.

Alas! We again reach the question of the hour, what are they assessing page rank on? Goes back to my question Ronnie, how do you optimize a page that doesn't contain content in your search string, as was the case on several of those found?

Like this guy at #5 and 6 on "ND Fishing" Search (http://www.gregisfishing.com/nd_fishing_guides_1.htm) for his photo page, with a PR 2. He's got lots of "ND Fishing" however, it's under every picture. So much for spam filters!

Or this guy at #7 with a PR 4 and 18 backlinks to his own site, (http://www.woodlandresort.com/fishingguides.htm) and no ND included anywhere on the page!

Then there's these guys who have a PR 3, no backlinks, and barely enough page content to fill a matchbook cover. (http://www.eastbaycampground.com/fishing.htm)

And they're followed by this guy with a PR 2, no "ND", only 2 "Fishing"s, no backlinks, and no meta tags what so ever, (http://www.cliffsidecabinnd.com/fishing.html) he appears to be found strictly on the page title! At both 11 and 12!

This one's great! Sitting at #13, is a fishing report form for ND, on someone's site in Arizona. (http://www.northamericancrappie.com/nd_fishing_report.htm)It has "nd_fishing" in the forms page domain name. Of course since it is a blank form, there's no content there!

I did however find the motel link shows no backlinks, rather than the few I anticipated, (http://www.garrisonmotel.com/ND%20motel%20info.htm) but on a different page it is linked to the character getting picked up in 5 & 6 for his photo album.

Oh well, back to the drawing board! Someone please take them brownies away from the algo writers, their content in questionable!

[ronniethedodger]

OK, Rock !! Watch me pull some Bullwinkle out of my hat. ;0)

Let's tackle this subject from another angle, and see if we can hook the answer! (I know -- that was reallly bad..hehehehe)

Your phrase is unusual to say the least. We really cannot compare it to "website design", "gift baskets", or some of the other so-called hit list phrases.

So I think not analyzing this for why the others are appearing, and looking at more from why yours is not appearing...can answer it a little better.

I did a search for just ND to see what Google would come up with. Nothing else, just that word (if we can call that a word).

The results that appear are related to North Dakota, Notre Dame, a Company called NeuroDimension, Inc., and two that had nothing to do with ND as far as I can tell. There were also over 16 million results for this search.

Of the top 50 results returned for just the term ND -- 21 of those dealt with North Dakota. Some results that were returned were because ND was referenced in a website address somewhere on the page also. More of the odder results were foreign abbreviations.

From these results, one can speculate that Google is not relating ND to North Dakota. This could be an important thing to note. Another thing suggesting that Google does not even know what ND means, is that the question to the searcher "Did you mean N.D.?" does not show.

Going on the assumption that Google has over 16 million results with ND in them, and it does not relate ND to North Dakota or anything else for that matter....then when it comes time to add the word "fishing" into the mix, what does it do?

The way I see this is that it has 16 million pages that it is going to look at, and find the word fishing. It does...and comes up with 485,000 that contain "some strange and wonderfully new unknown word" and the word "fishing". Remember this is not something like fishing rods, saltwater fishing, fishing tackle, fly fishing, etc.....this is basicly just "fishing".....does this make sense????

This is the point I am trying to make here. The word fishing means something, the word rod means something. But the meanings of "fishing rod" and "rod fishing" are totally different. Googles algos are pretty sophisticated in making this distinction....if the words are very common that is. Going on that assumption would mean that "nd fishing" is no different than "gobbleDEgunk fishing".

Google now looks for this unknown word and where it shows up around the word fishing. It does not matter where it shows up...immediately before, immediately after, two or three words after or before etc.

Then Google is going to look at how often those two words are balanced on the page. Four of one, three of the other, etc. If the balance of the two words are way out of proportion...then the primary word, fishing, starts losing distinction with the other word. For instance, if fishing appears 30 times on a page along with the word "rod" 20 times and the word "reel" only 5 times...then the page has more to do with fishing rod than fishing reel.

Now let's look at www.rtfi.us/fishing_links.htm+nd+fishing+rtfi&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]your (http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:l6GHTjCNRBgJ: with the highlighting turned on for ND and Fishing. ND appears 15 times. Fishing appears 27 times. ND does not appear in the title or the two Headings on the page, whereas Fishing does appear in those three areas. I can only conclude that this page deals with fishing in a broader sense, than in the sense of just ND fishing. The proximity of ND is pretty good at the beginning of the page, but as the pages continues...the word fishing gets mixed in with rods, reels, rivers....and further down the page there are other countries you can go fishing in too.

The #1 and #2 results...have some sort of redirect crap going on there....so who knows why they are at the top (translation: I am too lazy right now to look deeper). #3 and #4 are Government and the #3 cache lists the term ND as being in links that point to this page and if you check the backlinks, there are 3 government pages with ND in the link that point to this page. So I am going to be lazy and not check into .gov page any more. These four are straying away from my point quite a bit.

This brings us to the #5 result of thewww.gregisfishing.com/nd_fishing_guides_1.htm+nd+fishing&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]photo (http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:Z0FcPNxkW9MJ:[url) page cache at Google. There is a nice balance of the two and it flows well from the top to the bottom of the page.

The motel is the oddball of the bunch. It gets into the results for having 18 pages at the site with ND in it's title. Each of these ND titled pages have links that point to the page listed in the results. Even though, ND does not appear anywhere on the page at all....the ND titled pages with the link to this page does. There is something in the algo here that is interesting....it has all of these ND pages for the site in essence, but it is choosing the non-ND page from the site based on internal linking. The term ND is balanced throughout the entire site though and is represented equally on each page.

I can go on about this...and probably come up with all sorts of reasons why these pages are there. But the one point will still remain...and that is why yours is not there.

If your link page for ND Fishing dealt with just the ND aspect of it....I am sure that it will pop up in the top ten.


Oh well, back to the drawing board! Someone please take them brownies away from the algo writers, their content in questionable!

I think this warrants more attention. You and I ought to march right over to Google and check into that right away. Forget about the algo.....search the brownies, I say! ;0

[janeth]

The way I find out where we are ranked is by using my stats but I would like to say that it does look like Google is getting it togeather

If you do a search for

google number one ranked website

I'm #1 it is funny what people do searches for.

Did they really think they would get the #1 web site in the world?

It goes to show must people do not have a clue how search engines work.

[ronniethedodger]

If you do a search for

google number one ranked website


Ahhh...but Janeth, your query is not syntatically correct! ;0)

It should be google's number one ranked website (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=google%27s+number+one+ranked+website)

[janeth]

Hi ronniethedoger,

Maybe that is why I do not get very many hits from it but it was not what I was going for anyway so since it was free I guess I can not fuss to much.

[ronniethedodger]

Oh Janeth, I am sorry. It was just a joke.

I meant it more to point out how syntax affects the results
at Google. If you compare the two queries, the results
are vastly different.

[janeth]

It was not a problem I just did not want you to think I had worked hard to get that word.

My problem is I do not know when to use the 's and not sure if I have any key words I could use it on.

If it drops back and ranks both like you said in another post that would be great.

I might play with that some on another page in the title tag.

We could use the word ronniethedodger and ronniethedodger's

[ronniethedodger]

We could use the word ronniethedodger and ronniethedodger's

There is no plural for ronniethedodger...cuz as you know,
there is only one ronniethedodger. ;0)

Some day there may be a bunch of little ronniethedodgers running around though.

And those little ronniethedodgers will be ronniethedodger's.

[janeth]

Hi Ron,
That is why it would be a good test word. There should not be a lot of competetion

[ronniethedodger]

Hi Ron,
That is why it would be a good test word. There should not be a lot of competetion

That is true.

Hmmm....let's check this out right now.

Google search for ronniethedodger (http://www.google.com/search?q=ronniethedodger&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&filter=0) and no filter

With the apostrophe-s ronniethedodger's (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=ronniethedodger%27s)

Plural form ronniethedodgers (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=ronniethedodgers)

Yep...not much competition, eh? ;0)
Man I feel so alone now. =(

[minstrel]

Google search for ronniethedodger (http://www.google.com/search?q=ronniethedodger&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&filter=0) and no filter. Man I feel so alone now.
Not at all... Proclaim it proudly, man! Do like carbonize: "#1 on Google" in your tagline!

[rocky1]

Your phrase is unusual to say the least.

Unusual yes, unheard of no! With 22.8 million pages plus at Google, and 29.5 million plus at All the Web and Lycos competing for "Fishing", narrowing the search to "ND Fishing" is an advantageous angle. Wherein Google nets .459 million pages, and All the Web and Lycos 1.3 million pages. Your point there is however understood Ronnie. The engines are confused on that "ND" thing, not me!


So I think not analyzing this for why the others are appearing, and looking at more from why yours is not appearing...can answer it a little better.

Now let's look at www.rtfi.us/fishing_links.htm+nd+fishing+rtfi&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]your (http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:l6GHTjCNRBgJ: with the highlighting turned on for ND and Fishing. ND appears 15 times. Fishing appears 27 times. [u]ND does not appear in the title or the two Headings on the page, whereas Fishing does appear in those three areas. I can only conclude that this page deals with fishing in a broader sense, than in the sense of just ND fishing. The proximity of ND is pretty good at the beginning of the page, but as the pages continues...the word fishing gets mixed in with rods, reels, rivers....and further down the page there are other countries you can go fishing in too.

Very astute observation Dude! After writing all the above goodies earlier, I checked my cached file, and determined my memory was failing! (No not the computer, mine!) I was experimenting recently with page title on that page, to see how strongly that affected ranking, and I removed ND from the title on the links page. Whether that alone was enough to drop the page completely off the radar or not is now hard to say, as much of the competition seen there for 'ND Fishing' was not there previously. The sites in 5 through 9 came out of no where! Those currently in 1 through 4, & 10 were all seated in front of me; the site currently at #10, which was at #9 yesterday morning, is getting beat up on pretty good, without any major revisions, so there is a strong change in the algo as well. (It just dawned on me, the two sites holding 1 - 4 as stated earlier are Government sites, and thus apparently a higher priorty is being assessed them in search inclusive of "ND".)

Page title obviously carried a heavy influence on the page however, as I fell a little more than 5 places, at 19 pages manually, I still wasn't to be found! So I fired up my search engine search bot, set it to the first 1,000 finds, and my page isn't to be found therein. That data was not however, previously in the title, and I came from out of nowhere to 12, and with the title optimized it went to 6, under the Florida revision, which I find truly strange.


This brings us to the #5 result of the photo page cache at Google. There is a nice balance of the two and it flows well from the top to the bottom of the page.


I would maybe concur with your page balance theory Ron, but... at #21, time of this post anyhow, is the Linton Public School Website (http://www.linton.k12.nd.us/ndlinks.htm), where "ND" is splattered on the page like salt on pretzels, and there's only 3 incidences of "Fishing" on the page. Would likewise assume a heavier emphasis is placed on ND in search under this algo, but there are others there as pointed out where ND doesn't exist. Maybe this algo places heavier emphasis, one way or the other, for some reason?


I can go on about this...and probably come up with all sorts of reasons why these pages are there. But the one point will still remain...and that is why yours is not there.

If your link page for ND Fishing dealt with just the ND aspect of it....I am sure that it will pop up in the top ten.

That is very likely, however... it popped up at 12 without really being a page and was optimized to 6, with the same content. As stated earlier only changes made to content in Optimization was the addition of a few extra "ND"s and the title change. The only change subsequently made to it, prior to losing it again, (the page not me), was the removal of ND in the page title! As stated, I sort of sacrificed it for understanding of that issue, but still I'm not sure where I'm left with the algo change. I am relatively certain however, that it carries enough weight that caption containing "ND Fishing" was added to the Site Index Page (http://www.rtfi.us) as a subtitle, and it was placed back in the title of the links page as well. Likewise a little "ND" was sprinkled throughout the Index page, and we added a few more on the Links Page (http://www.rtfi.us/fishing_links.htm), to test the balance theory. Likewise, I changed the file name from http://www.rtfi.us/fishing_links.htm to http://www.rtfi.us/nd_fishing_links.htm. Leaving the former in place with auto-redirect for the sake of any links established elsewhere out there in the world, and implementing the latter for the sake of the Google bots. We'll see where we go with that, eh!

In digging through all of this however, I checked back links to my Links Page, and Google only shows 1. Any clue why? I mean every page on the site had simple hyperlinks added for bottom of page navigation and mostly to tie them all together for the spiders, all 318 of them, per count on the update on page name change! Why thus would we only show 1 back link? In that it's the index page, it is obviously spidering the page bottom navigation link to get to the links page, there is no other link between the two; so why not the other 316 pages with the same link? I would conclude from that possibly, that it's showing only the one page in the Google indexes. (Which they should in fact have more than that even in their indexes.)


I think this warrants more attention. You and I ought to march right over to Google and check into that right away. Forget about the algo.....search the brownies, I say! ;0

Concur, fully!

[janeth]

After reading everything we find that Rocky made changes to the title just before this happened and it could more then not be Rocky´s fault.

The jury finds in favor of Google and now Rocky has to write an I´m sorry for getting old letter to Google. lol

Google does put a lot of weight on the title. I think I would start there

[rocky1]

~~ LOL ~~ On the getting old!

Title change no doubt affected it, but 1,000 places! All I did was remove "ND & Other" from the title, and it wasn't there when they picked it up to begin with!

Can't blame all that on OLD! No way! I'm not buying it!!!

[janeth]

Did you put the title back yet?

How often is Google on your site?

[rocky1]

Of course I did!!! .. }:^b

Per closing that last long winded post up there, put the "ND" back in title on the links page, added a few more "ND"s in the page content just for good measure, and changed the page file name from .../fishing_links.htm to .../nd_fishing_links.htm . Likewise added "ND Fishing" in subtitle on my Index Page, and scattered "ND"s all about there, since it is the only one Google shows a backlink for.

The old links page is still there with auto redirect, and a few "ND Fishing"s on it too, for the sake of any outside links that might be referencing that page. Including the remote possibility of Google relisting under the old cached page file.

Robot tags suggest revisit every 14 days, but I haven't checked to see how often they are actually revisiting.

[janeth]

When you get back to where you started I want to add a link as the only one of two outgoing links on a pr5 page using your key words and see if it helps any by itself.

If that is ok?

[ronniethedodger]

Whew...you are more long winded than I am Rock. ;0)

The cached version of the Motel page...take a look in the header area that Google slaps on to it. You will see this:

These search terms have been highlighted: fishing
These terms only appear in links pointing to this page: nd

So it is possible to have a page appear in the results at Google, without having one of the terms even mentioned on that page. It is there because purely from the text in the links that point to it.

I will bet you dollars to donuts that if this Motel site had links that contained SD, NH, WA, ID, etc. then that same page would appear for those terms as well, although slightly lower than the ND result. It would depend on how well those two-letter terms were represented throughout the site.

As for your link page...I still think that ND (although well represented) is getting diluted by virtue of the fact that you have so many NON-ND content that follows it. And you have a lot of it.

Perhaps sprinkle this term into some of the headings will help overcome that....instead of "Other Fishing Links"....change it to "Other Non-ND Fishing Links" for example.

My experience with robots is that they do appear quite frequently. If you really dig into your logs you can see this happening almost daily. But some people mistake that for them actually re-indexing their site....which is not true.

In the case of Googlebot...if will randomly (it appears random) pick a page and call it from the server...in and out...like the page is bookmarked in it's queue. Sometimes the Googlebot just requests the robot.txt file (like other bots do) and that is it. Other times all you will see is just the default page which is represented by ---> \ (backward slash).

Googlebot will get really aggressive into re-indexing your site, if the robots.txt file changes for instance. Especially if you put exclusions in for other bots...it will go to the directory that was excluded for the other bot. I saw this happen when I put an exclusion in for the linksmanager bot which was coming in (I aint kidding) almost 50 times a day and crawling my my entire site incessantly each time. BTW, the linksmanager bot is about the stupidest bot I have ever seen...I can run on about this idiot forever...but I won't stray off topic. ;0)

If your page filesize changes dramatically (especially your Home Page) in either direction, up or down, it will pull in your entire page. You can tell it is calling in the entire page, because you will also see additional hits for the images that are referenced on that page. Never assume that a call for a page is a call for that page in it's entirety just because you see the page request in your logs.

Following that re-index comes a higher than usual call for pages all throughout your site. If it sees a discrepancy in the filesize from what it knows it to be, then it calls in the entire page. You can see this in your logs, because it will make a second call to the server for that same page followed by the image hits. Also, at this time...if you made substantial changes to certain parts of that page, such as text following the BODY tag...it will re-call that page again.

Not all page requests, like I said before, are for the entire page. Sometimes you can't really tell if the page is being requested in it's entirety....because the request can be made without images requests. Usually if you see a bot in your logs and look at that one session in your log, if you see a double-hit for the same page...it may mean a complete re-index. If you look even closer, there are different types of page requests. Some requests can be just for header info or file info....in which case that is all the server will send....but it will show up in your logs as a simple page request.

The moral to this is...always revise your home page last. Make revisions to internal pages first and FTP them up to your server. Have those pages ready to go. If you want those pages to get indexed quickly...do something to the Home Page to trigger it. If you really want that bot to go gonzo on your site....change your home page every day then sit back and watch the little bugger go nuts! ;0)

[ronniethedodger]

When you get back to where you started I want to add a link as the only one of two outgoing links on a pr5 page using your key words and see if it helps any by itself.

If that is ok?

If it isn't okay with him...it would be alright with me! ;0)

Another test would be to put something un-related to the page you are linking to. For example..hmmm..."ronniethedodger" comes to mind. Use that as the text and point the link to any page on the net.

Just pick any random url and plug it in. Don't use any from WPW though....cuz "ronniethedodger" appears in a lot of the posts there (I am told it is anyway). The url has to be void of the term "ronniethedodger" for purposes of this test.

Then wait for it to get picked up. That term should be really easy to verify and it is not too competitive.

[janeth]

I think that is a great idea we need a page with a pro what do you think?

[rocky1]

When you get back to where you started I want to add a link as the only one of two outgoing links on a pr5 page using your key words and see if it helps any by itself.

If that is ok?

Have at it! I'm open to experimenting with it in any manner you see fit. But, it's going to be higher than where it started! ~~LOL~~ And, if it works there, we're going after page 1 for "FISHING", no ND.

As stated the changes early this morning, with exception to the change in the page URL were pretty much superficial. I put ND back in the title, and added it in text, on two lines top of the page.

The only reason I pulled the name change on that one page, was because of the ND Fishing Report form found on the Arizona fishing site. I figured if he could make page 2 with that, and the word "fishing" twice on an otherwise blank page, there's got to be something to be said for that methodology!


Whew...you are more long winded than I am Rock. ;0)

Oh, you should see me when I really get excited about something Ronnie! Search engines are just loads of fun to talk about anyhow! Make you feel sorta like ~~> <}:^B

Per your suggestions above, the robots are fixing to go ballistic! The former links page just went to zero content, with exception of a few links to the new renamed links page. So when they look at that one, it should trigger review of the other one. Likewise addition of the sub-title on the index page, inclusive of "ND Fishing", and addition of that terminology scattered throughout the page should trigger something there as well, or at least I would think it would at the very top of the page like that.

Lack of content change on page 1 would make sense, in rankings on the site slumping a bit overall for certain search strings here of it late. For about two months there were changes virtually every day, as the site was revamped, and I set about climbing the Search Engine ladder; now it's been sitting a while, and it's not getting crawled. Exact Search indicated last time the site was crawled was 9/27/03. So, I resubmitted to that and several other engines, and submitted the new .../nd_fishing_links.htm page to expedite things as well.

If this one runs like the Florida revision, it could be back on top in a day or two, but I'm not holding my breath on that one, because it could be gone the following day too!

Knight to King 4!

[rocky1]

The cached version of the Motel page...take a look in the header area that Google slaps on to it. You will see this:

These search terms have been highlighted: fishing
These terms only appear in links pointing to this page: nd

So it is possible to have a page appear in the results at Google, without having one of the terms even mentioned on that page. It is there because purely from the text in the links that point to it.

I will bet you dollars to donuts that if this Motel site had links that contained SD, NH, WA, ID, etc. then that same page would appear for those terms as well, although slightly lower than the ND result. It would depend on how well those two-letter terms were represented throughout the site.;0)

Almost missed this one! Goes back to my original satirical question, how do you optimize a page for that?! };^D

[janeth]

If you do a search for "computers" the #1 and as a matter of fact the first couple do not even use the word computer in the text.

Yes it is because of links coming from other sites.

Links count for more then anything else when it comes to getting a top ranking.

[ronniethedodger]

So it is possible to have a page appear in the results at Google, without having one of the terms even mentioned on that page. It is there because purely from the text in the links that point to it.


Almost missed this one! Goes back to my original satirical question, how do you optimize a page for that?! };^D

My satirical answer....why would you want to?
Every page on the Internet is optimized for ND Fishing! ;0)



Lack of content change on page 1 would make sense, in rankings on the site slumping a bit overall for certain search strings here of it late.

Do you have comparison figures for last year at this time? What I am driving at, could this be a Seasonal thing that might normally happen around this time of year?

Not too many people I know of jumps for glee over tripping off to ND at this time of year to cut a hole in the ice...not any sane people I know anyway! ;0)



Knight to King 4!

Cheater! That is an illegal move.

[rocky1]

Do you have comparison figures for last year at this time? What I am driving at, could this be a Seasonal thing that might normally happen around this time of year?

Not too many people I know of jumps for glee over tripping off to ND at this time of year to cut a hole in the ice...not any sane people I know anyway! ;0)


Afraid not Ron, RTFI (www.rtif.us) went global May 30, 03. The site was a tutorial project for Front Page started spring of 02; I'd buried it on Tripod to play with, while learning to maintain the company site. The guy that got me started playing in web work thought the project good enough that he stuck a link to it, on a site he was building for his brother. (Their other brother's married to my sister, and we all drank enough beer together in our younger years to float a cruise liner or two, (each), in case you're thinking that was overly generous of him.)

At any rate, the site got found, and I got an e-mail early this spring from a guy half a continent away that suggested it was simply too good to hide. (He's head of my fan club now!) I checked my site stats, and the site was seeing fair traffic, so I bought server space, moved it away from banner ads, and cleaned it up a little. Lost my job end of July, wherein I had time to overhaul the entire site, and push it up the Search Engine ladder for a few terms, then I found the forum here, which has helped both in knowledge of how to promote the site and in views of the site. Prior to the Tripod investigation of traffic mentioned, I wasn't even aware stats were offered on the Tripod account. Thus I have not a clue Dude!

Traffic isn't truly an issue, my stats reflect traffic steadily increased through Thanksgiving and has since fallen off, but that's to be anticipated over the Holidays, I would expect to see it increase again early to mid-spring. By the same respect, my day to day numbers for unique visitors aren't down a whole lot, so I'm thinking we're probably seeing folks that bounce in look around book mark and they'll return after the holidays when they have more time. Was instead referring more to a slight slip in search engine placement, which again has occurred since late November, although there would appear no correlation between the two. And, no it's not ALL Google, I'm seeing it more so on the other engines.

Of the terms I'm found for; I'm deeply seated for RTFI, no one's been able to bump that one since I got it to the top. Oddly enough it does have allot of competition, between acronym sites for "Read The Flaming Instructions" and "Real Time Financial Information", and common usage of the term in either state. Rocky Thomas on the other hand, I've had some difficulties with it sliding; way too much competition in the "Rocky" Mountains and such, and I'm not pretentious enough to have optimized for me!

However.... regarding your comment on folks flocking to ND during the winter; there are tons of them, believe it or not! Should you ever really want to freeze your valuables off come see us! Maybe next week would be good, they're forecasting temps in the -20 F. range!

Most of our winter visitors are in pursuit of migratory waterfowl, and we do see many for the Ice Fishing. I've never checked the stats, but I'd dare say we likely encounter a significant portion of our tourist trade October through February. Were one to look at it strictly from a point of financial impact, October would take the year hands down, I'm sure. Bird hunters are big bucks. They spend allot of money up here in a very short time. Those little rental units listed on my homepage, bring as much as $50 - $75/per person/per day, with as many as 6 - 7 guys staying in them, for the entire month of October. And, they're typically booked a year in advance! I on the other hand, have a conscience, and I don't charge anywhere near that.

As far as the fishing, there is in fact a planned "Travel Special" for Fishing trips out of Minneapolis to Devils Lake. Wherein the price includes a round trip Amtrak ticket, lodging, and guide service, and it's all pretty reasonable. As best I recall it's referred to as "The Perch Express" or something along those lines.

No comment on the Chess move! ~~ LOL ~~

[rocky1]

For the benefit of those of you that might have been following this thread, and may be bored enough to wonder how Rocky's faring with Google, and the title content experiment. Subsequent revisions to my links page have yet to net any results, it still doesn't show up on Google in the Top 50 at least. I haven't bothered checking to see if it came back any further down the list, because as we all know, except for showing that I'm making progress and it's back, the likelihood of it getting hits after that is pretty slim. And, granted it's only been 4 days since I tried resurrecting it from the depths of Google No Mans Land.

Changes to the homepage, (WWW.RTFI.US) as noted above, do indicate however, that keywords in the Title are weighed very heavily in the present algo. Following the little experiment with title content on the Links page, I introduced a line to the homepage as subtitle ~ ND Fishing Fun At It's Finest! ~ in hopes of this instigating a homepage listing for "ND Fishing".

This ploy not only worked, it worked rather quickly, and it worked very well. The RTFI homepage found it's way to page 2, sometime in the 4 days since I last checked. (Wish I could tell you closer guys, but I got better things to do, than look for me on Google on a day to day basis, even in this dull non-existential life I lead, so we've got to settle for four days or less!)

In visit with Janeth yesterday she pointed me to a different SEO Tool, that in turn pointed out a few additional but minor errors on this page, so it should have potential to advance to page 1.

Although I came in a few slots above the aforementioned Motel that doesn't have "ND" on the page anywhere. There are still a couple of sites ahead of mine, that are not nearly as keyword saturated, and as best I recall, at least one other that does not have the "ND" entered in search string anywhere on the page.

As for the Links Page, if the current algorithm is weighing link to text ratio on the page, as the current tool suggests it could, then that page is certainly going to the bottom. I mean let's face it, it is a links page!

In summary - Keyword Relevance in Title Text is certainly a key issue at Google folks. Installing the Keyword Phrase I was looking for in <h4> font, top of the page, brought my homepage from out of no-where, as in wasn't seen in the first 1,000 pages, to #12 in only 4 days. Can't guarantee that success everywhere guys, but it certainly can't hurt.

Next Test - Backlink Relevance on Page Rank!

[janeth]

Hi Rocky

I guess I have to get your link ready now.

Just for a note not sure what is going on yet but we changed our <h4> to a <h3> to move up

But instead we droped about two slots for some of our key words.

We made the change two days ago and that was the only change we made so not sure what happened.

I think I'm going to change it to a <h2> and see what happenes.

[rocky1]

Latest update on the RTFI "ND Fishing" search string. RTFI homepage per the lastest revisions has hit page 1, sitting at #5, only behind the two government agencies!

Feel free to link Janeth!

[ronniethedodger]

Latest update on the RTFI "ND Fishing" search string. RTFI homepage per the lastest revisions has hit page 1, sitting at #5, only behind the two government agencies!

Feel free to link Janeth!

Congrats Rocky! Far out. And it is above that darn Motel site too. Excellent work.
I see that you used "ND & otherwise" in some of those <H> areas.
I guess that is not too far of a stretch...heck who reads anyway! ;0)

And yes Janeth, by all means...feel free to link it on up! ;0)

[paulhiles]

Nice one Rocky! You're also #5 for "Fishing Fun", Fishing is fun", Fishing for fun" etc!
Aren't you glad I moved this post in here, eh? ;o)

Paul

[rocky1]

Thanks guys!

Yes Paul, had you left it in the breakroom, I'd have probably gone on with it as a joke! But.... I'd have probably made most of the same changes anyhow. };^)

Thanks much for insight on the other search strings Paul, that was a last stop on the way to bed very late last night, and I really didn't look for anything but the "ND Fishing" search, as nothing except that has ever come up for any "xx...fishing" search before.

As stated above, the lessons learned experimenting with my links page while it was up top, and even in crashing it, were instrumental to what I did on this page to make it's placement happen. By the same respect, in that the links page hasn't come back, but did show this page as the only backlink to it, I have to wonder if the engines aren't weighing that page heavily in rank of my homepage.

Whatever the reason! I'm glad to finally be making some headway on the "Fishing" search term as a whole, especially in light of the new finds. That in consideration of the competition there, as reported above, is in itself a milestone accomplishment! I honestly believe that once such is picked up and the site's relevancy to the term is weighed by the Search Engines, that the possibility of being found for "Fishing" alone is far greater.

In the meantime.... I'll just keep tweaking!

[rocky1]

More results on the "ND Fishing" Search for Success!

"ND Fishing Sites" = RTIF Homepage = #1... RTFI Links Page = #2
"ND Fishing Fun" = RTIF Homepage = #1... RTFI Links Page = #2
"ND Fishing Humor" = RTIF Homepage = #1... RTFI Links Page = #2
"ND Fishing Forum" = RTFI Homepage #1 and...
"ND Fishing Report" = RTFI Homepage #6 (above the biggest site in ND, and that's why they're so big!)
"ND Fishing Plans" = RTFI Homepage #1
"ND Fishing Trip and Trip(s)" both = RTFI Homepage #1
"ND Fishing Guides" = RTFI Homepage #22
"ND Fishing Website" = RTFI Homepage #14

I'm listed for things I didn't include in the homepage on those last couple guys!


"Fishing Fun" = RTFI Homepage #6
"Fishing (and any stop word here) Fun" = RTFI Homepage #5
"Fishing (and any stop word here) ND" = RTFI Homepage #3
"Fishing ND" = RTFI Homepage #9
"Fishing Rentals in ND" = RTFI Homepage #3


All that and still only a PR 4! Wait'll Janeth links.

[ronniethedodger]

How are you doing for "north dakota fishing"? ;0)

Okay, now the next test...this ain't over with yet Rocky my man. Let's see if people are actually searching for those terms, okay?

What you need to do is see if they are hitting! It is one thing to have your names in lights, but another if the power is out on the billboard.

Given the time of the year, and this may be a seasonal thing...it may take some time before we know the answer to that. So I expect you to keep this in mind, or on your mind over the next few months and have a full report for us then, okay?

I would be interested in knowing how that affected your traffic more than anything.

[janeth]

That is really really great Rocky

I will add your link tomorrow and maybe we can move you up a little more

[rocky1]

Have been terribly busy the last week or so and haven't been keeping up real well, however I noticed yesterday that the algos have swung slightly again in the last few days. Seem to recall having done a "ND Fishing" search, long about last Friday or Saturday and everything was in place, however yesterday I did same and found I was moved! The latest change reintroduced my links page to search results; have not yet decided whether this is good or bad!!!

Overall the RTFI Homepage drop several places in the listing with the latest Algo revisions, although there are several where it remained unchanged. In those places where the links page was reintroduced, it as a rule was placed higher than the Homepage! However... that gives me two places in the top page or two, so I'm definitely on the right track.

And, apparently someone at Google is paid to read this thread because the #1 site in ND is finally sitting at #1 for a few results, which is a first!

Have yet to see any change in page rank as a result of Janeth's link, and I wish I could tell everyone it shot me up the charts, but at the moment it's difficult to tell. The fact that the links page came back into the picture from over 100 pages of results down, definitely indicates an Algo shift to me, however!

[janeth]

Hi Rocky,

It will take anywhere from now to about 30 days before we can tell anything from that link. It is coming from a pr6 page so it might get you close to a pr5 depending where you are now.

[rocky1]

Hi Janeth,

Understood on the 30 days, I never expect anything fast on the Engines, although they often move much quicker than I anticipate as is evident in this thread.

Page is currently at PR 4, not sure whether that would be high side or low side, or if it makes that distinction. But... we'll see what it does.

Thanks again will get a link up headed your way as well.

[rocky1]

I would be interested in knowing how that affected your traffic more than anything.

Can't say I've seen an increase in traffic as yet Ronnie, but in the 2 days since this latest revision has put me at the top of where ever all it put me with my links page, I have had 2 requests for reciprocal links on the links page out of the clear blue. The first two such requests, I've ever received. In the past it has always been me begging reciprocal links on other's sites.

[janeth]

Hi Rocky about the best way to tell if it is high or low is by the other pages on your site.

If your home page is a pr4 and all the other pages are pr3 then it is low. But if your home page is pr4 and all the other pages are pr4 then it is high

[rocky1]

Pages within the site vary from 4 - 2 the further you get away from the index page. That could be because they're further away, or it could be because the content on those further out is not as intense as those closer to home.

I just did a search for allinurl however, and I do find roughly 200 pages on the site have been indexed so that's not bad either.

Just got your link up on the index page bottom right, and likewise one on the RTFI Design Concepts menu, far right column, as well as a banner link on the Concepts Links page with other WPW members.

[rocky1]

See ~> how sophisticated is your spam? (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10812&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=22) ~ in the Breakroom.




Not sure about the rest of you, but I don't see my signatures showing up at Google.


Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat, Rock!

Try this search at Google ---> Rocky signature results at WPW (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Fishing+for+a+good+time!%22+webproworl d&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&filter=0)

Interesting Search String! Even without the WebProWorld on the end of the string I show numerous times for "Fishing For A Good Time" starting at #3. So you're right it is out there and being found. Maybe I should change that to, "North Dakota Fishing For A Fun Time!" and see what that does for me. Given your post above ~


How are you doing for "north dakota fishing"? ;0)

Okay, now the next test...this ain't over with yet Rocky my man. Let's see if people are actually searching for those terms, okay?

What you need to do is see if they are hitting! It is one thing to have your names in lights, but another if the power is out on the billboard.

Given the time of the year, and this may be a seasonal thing...it may take some time before we know the answer to that. So I expect you to keep this in mind, or on your mind over the next few months and have a full report for us then, okay?

I would be interested in knowing how that affected your traffic more than anything.

Likewise traffic is steady from December, down from November, but November as I believe I noted abouve I linked to all the Topsites bottom of the page which initially drove a substantial amount of traffic my way.
______________________________________________

Current results on the "ND Fishing" Search, unless noted unchanged ~

"ND Fishing Guides" = RTFI Homepage #15 & #16 up 7 and picked up the links page
"ND Fishing Website" = RTFI Homepage #11 up 3

"Fishing Fun" = RTFI Homepage #68 OUCH! down 62
"Fishing (and any stop word here) Fun" = RTFI Homepage #6 down 1
"Fishing ND" = RTFI Homepage #8 up 1
"Fishing Rentals in ND" = RTFI Homepage #4 down 1

Only changes to the page being the addition of 3 outbound links to the page, two of those to fishing sites, the other to Janeth's site.
__________________________________________________ __


All that and only a PR 4! Wait'll Janeth links.

No change on page rank yet.

[rocky1]

Also of intresting note, Google's Bots are ranked 3rd on browsers visiting my site!


MSIE Number of requests 102,979 Number of page requests 25,264
1. Number of requests ~> MSIE/6 93,892 ~~ Number of page requests ~> 22,673
2. Number of requests ~> MSIE/5 8,862 ~~ Number of page requests ~> 2,505
3. MSIE/4 225 86
Number of requests ~> Googlebot 2,371 ~~ Number of page requests ~> 2,371
4. Googlebot/2 2,371 2,371

[janeth]

Anyday now Rocky my bet is a pr5 but only time will tell.

[rocky1]

Hi Janeth!

I would think so. Was looking the other day and the design side of the Site, "RTFI Design (http://www.rtfi.us/Concepts/index.htm)", is already at PR 5. It is however focused on one topic, whereas the Index page is being seen splitting off to the web design side, and a few links to other commercial sites, rentals, weather data, etc.

Not sure when the Design Side stepped up, but it was at PR 4 as well. Have been too busy playing with the ND Fishing goodies and didn't notice that one change.

[janeth]

Hi Rocky,

You are now ranked #1 for ND Fishing websites

[ronniethedodger]

Yep Janeth....number one. He is also #3 for just ND Fishing by itself too. Not bad Rock. Congrats!

[rocky1]

The list of finds for RTFI on the front page of Google continue to grow, and there was very little loss of placement on the last round of algorithm revision, so the site seems firmly seated at this point. The links page has likewise rebounded and remains strong also. I did drop a page or two on on other engines, and lost one find on Google but that was for services I don't even offer, so it wasn't so bad that I moved from page 1 to page 5.

Page rank on the main site has remained unchanged, the Design side of the site did slip, but I wasn't sure why it was ranked PR 5 to begin with! Both sides are currently at PR 4. And, I'm now on a mission to make the Design side of things be found for Web Design!

Per earlier discussion of traffic being the leading indicating factor, numbers for January rebounded to within a couple hundred hits of November's numbers, (which were the highest seen on the site since moving it to the current server May 28, '03, and), having seen a decline over the holidays. As discussed earlier however, this time of year just isn't real conducive to outside search for ND Fishing, unless you appreciate having to drills holes in the water to get your line in.

It might also be noted since finding this new fame on the engines...

* I have received 4 requests for reciprocal links from other sites, which I was the one begging for these links before.

* I met a new neighbor who found the site and e-mailed, sort of floored him when he learned he was only two doors over! He thought it pretty amazing that we were in the same town, when he found the site.

* Although I'm still not faring well for "North Dakota Fishing" the new signature line has me seated #1 for "North Dakota Fishing For a Good Time" and "North Dakota Fishing For a Fun Time"

More experiments are in the works!