Helping others at WebProWorld

[greeneagle]

I hope that no one takes offense to this posting - It is not meant that way at all!

But, this is not a private club for a few Veterans, MVP's and Moderators!

Please take the time to explain to the "newbies" and "greenies" what you mean in your postings.

Sure, I understand, but, I also read many newbie postings, as you probably do too. (hopefully anyway).

This is a public forum and I hope we can all take the view that there is an intrinsic value for all levels that we should hold in close regard.

Besides, Isn't that what this and these forums are really all about?

Sure, sometimes it is a pain in the ___ to respond in a manner that would explain in more detail, but that does not diminish peer perspective and it increases value for visitors that ususally outnumber the members.

After all don't the "Veterans", "MVP's" and "Moderators" reap enough value here to help keep these forums alive?

If not, How about raw stats for WPW?

Just a humble opinion!

Ken

[minstrel]

Well, you've lost me there again, greeneagle - what is it that you think needs more explaining?

[ronniethedodger]

Just a humble opinion!



I disagree.

[bubbasmurf]

I agree what Ken said because some newbies may not post because they feel they might be slammed against the back wall for asking.

[ldyguique]

This is directed to the discussion of "full disclosure answers." One of the advantages of a forum is that it's very active and "now." It's a useful and uptodate quick reference for very current issues. It is a royal pain to read through older forum threads trying to find information that may have been posted 100 times in various places and by various people. Many topics are started and never have a followup posting. Using the search function is only marginally successful, as it just leads one into threads that may or may not go anywhere at all.

I know that I've learned more in exploring both rlouse's and greeneagle's websites than in most of the postings, in terms of "catching myself up to speed" on terminology and howtos. Additionally, the occasional link here and there to a recommended site have been helpful, i.e., http://www.bruceclay.com/. All of these have become favorite links for me.

I think that it might be time for the beginning of an article archive on some of the major topics or issues.

And, I agree with greeneagle and bubbasmurf's assessments that it's very daunting to post in any of the non-break forums as this site definitely has elements of being a private club with the majority of postings being done by less than 30 people, many of whom have formed obvious friendships and digress off-topic very quickly.

[minstrel]

some newbies may not post because they feel they might be slammed against the back wall for asking
I suppose some may be hesitant, although that's going to be true no matter what. I think if you browse through the posts here you'll find many asking quite basic questions, including questions about acronyms if that's what greeneagle was objecting to - in recent memory I remember two without straining: "what does "PR" mean?" and "what does "IPO" mean?". Both were answered promptly and politely and I don't think reading thosr that anyone would get the impression that asking a basic question would get you "slammed against the back wall".

But we are speculating about the trigger for greeneagle's comment - perhaps we should wait for him to clarify his comments before jumping to conclusions. To be frank, it seemed more to me that he had a question himself about something - if so, all this talk about discouraging "newbies" is irrelevant.

On another point,
it's very daunting to post in any of the non-break forums as this site definitely has elements of being a private club with the majority of postings being done by less than 30 people, many of whom have formed obvious friendships and digress off-topic very quickly
I agree that we have become a bit lax lately in off-topic comments - I for one am trying to take some steps to correct that and to pay more attention which posts I am actually responding to. On the other point, about friendships that form here, I think that's true but I don't see that as a bad thing at all and not something I would personally like to see changed - certainly, at least some new arrivals seem to add themselves quickly into the mix when they are so inclined - you and Ron are two that come to mind fairly quickly.

[rlrouse]

I am always happy to clarify my posts and answer questions when asked. We were all "newbies" at one time and we all learn the same way: by reading and asking questions.

My experience here has shown this to be universal among most of the participants.

[janeth]

I'm a newbie here and I really like it.

I'm not sure what post we are talking about that would bother someone that was new.

As a matter of fact I think you will find the people that do a lot of posting and play around a lot are the same people that bend over backwards to help out the newbies.

The only people I have ever seen come in an start attacking people are most of the time people that post very little.

Just my two cents

[ronniethedodger]

I agree with ldyguigue that we do tend to stray off topic. And that there are freindships, in some cases, alliances that are formed between the members. But this tends to happen in the real world at company meetings or seminars anyway.

The PR question was actually a post by a new member. And the IPO was a question in the middle of popular thread.

Truth be known, I did not want to ask that brave question. I had no idea what in the heck IPO meant when a certain 'newbie' bravely stepped up and finally asked it. So in retrospect, even I have problems with a lot of the discussions going on here also. But if you read the immediate response (I was onto it like white on rice) I just as much told the guy that I was in the dark about it...and offered my interpretation of IPO which I managed to glean from the that thread. Then someone posted a reply pretty much affirming my thoughts.

Some people will ask the questions, even the new members. Some people will not, even the older members. And this, again, is not unlike the real life.

The problem with making new people feel comfortable here at WebProWorld (WPW) is not the straying off-topic, the freindships, the acronyms, talking above the heads of others, debates that may appear hostile to the outsider....none of those. Everyone is guilty of this one too, myself included, and that there is a specific Forum here at WPW called New Member Introductions.

Run down the list and look at that long, long, long line of zeroes in the # of Replies column. When was the last time any of us actually responded to a New Introduction, even just to say "Welcome", "If you have any questions, then...", or "Don't feel bad if..."

And that is where part of bubba's statement applies the best here "some newbies may not post because they feel they might be slammed against the back wall for asking.". But not that they will be slammed against the back wall as he put it, but right from Day One they are being ignored, unlistened too, and left with a feeling of unwanted-ness. Ken's opinion is kind of right....but for all the wrong reasons.

[ldyguique]

There are several states of newbieness, some newbies are within all. There are newbies to the general online experience and/or computers. There are newbies to website design/development. There are newbies to e-business. There are newbies to promoting that business, which would include a range of issues from products, alliances, and/or optimization. There are interntionally-based newbies who are struggling to understand English, internet jargon, and/or slang. There are newbies to this particular site and its forums. None of these states of newbieness indicates a general lack of knowledge on any number of other topics or issues or with life itself.

The one thing that we cannot help a newbie with is the undercurrent of angst at "joining in," other than by being friendly, helpful, and non-judgmental. In short, what we need ourselves. I wouldn't still be hanging around if I'd not found this to be a welcoming forum overall. But, some don't hang around. Although, I do see that topics are read by a larger group than those who post.

I do feel that each of us has to bring a willingness to do background reading, research, or knowledge-gathering in order to move beyond rash beginner. The student must be willing to learn, which means either formal classes or doing some secondary reading, through hardcopy books, magazines, or through the internet. One cannot expect an expert to drop everything and rush forward to fill one's head up with all that the expert has learned through diligent effort and the school of hard knocks.

Many of the experts in here are competing. Real life competing for the almighty dollar. That they can set aside their normal reticence about giving up secrets is incredibly special.

Newbies have to do their part to become more than newbie.

[minstrel]

The reality is that all of us were newbies to the WebProWorld forums at some point and most of us probably took a while to read through some of the threads and get a feel for the place before posting. That was certainly true for me, with the exception of my first "please review my site" post. One reason for this is that, perhaps like some others, I had been to forums in the past where the posts were so vicious and demeaning that I had no interest in participating - the reason I kept coming back to WPW was because I saw a different attitude here.

I think if you scan through many of the threads here at WPW (WebProWorld), you'll see that in fact many of them are started by newbies asking a question - and then the 30 or so people that ldyguique to try to answer that question. So yes... it may be that those 30 people are doing the most posting but often it's in an effort to help out someone who has just arrived on the scene.

A second point made by ldyguique is worth noting here: those "0 replies" posts. These are most evident in "Site Review" (and perhaps Link Exchange although I don't go there very often), where the sheer number of posts means that a post now may be on a back page in an hour some days.

I do make an effort when I have a little extra time to go through looking for those "0 reply" posts and, try to respond when I can answer the question. I would urge all of you to try to do the same - and yes, that "Welcome to WebProWorld" message, even if that's all you can post at the moment, may well make a positive difference to that person's view of WPW.

[ronniethedodger]

... One reason for this is that, perhaps like some others, I had been to forums in the past where the posts were so vicious and demeaning that I had no interest in participating - the reason I kept coming back to WPW was because I saw a different attitude here.

I ditto that feeling. Another thing that is unique about WPW too is that fact that outside of few posts from time to time, pretty much the staff at WPW (our hosts) pretty much stand back and let us kind of go our own way with this the whole shebang here.

They do not interfere or micro-manage. They leave it, for the most part, in our hands. Things have a way of working themselves out.




So yes... it may be that those 30 people are doing the most posting but often it's in an effort to help out someone who has just arrived on the scene.

30 today, 60 tomorrow.

One thing that shocked me the other day, was that I noticed for the first time that this Forum is actually just a baby. It has only been up for a little over 6 months. My first impression of this place was that it had been around for a couple of years....and I can only assume that that is attributable to a lot of the people that are here reading this right now.


A second point made by ldyguique is worth noting here: those "0 replies" posts. These are most evident in "Site Review" (and perhaps Link Exchange although I don't go there very often), where the sheer number of posts means that a post now may be on a back page in an hour some days.

Ahem...actually I brought that up and it was in reference to the New Member Introductions forum. After looking at the Site Review forum too, I can see the same applies there as well.

These areas are often a new persons first areas to post to. By our neglect of not dropping a quick line of "Welcome" in at least the Introduction forum sends a message to these people that is more stand-offish and elitist than any of the arguments that prompted Minstrel to move this into it's own topic for discussion (Good call btw (<-by the way) my beanied friend).



I do make an effort when I have a little extra time to go through looking for those "0 reply" posts and, try to respond when I can answer the question. I would urge all of you to try to do the same - and yes, that "Welcome to WebProWorld" message, even if that's all you can post at the moment, may well make a positive difference to that person's view of WPW.

Can't argue or add anything to that at all.....except "Ah c'mon, do I really have to?" (I am kidding....get a grip people...it is a joke) I would put up one of these ;0) following that statement, but ...well I will leave that one at that, eh? ;0)

[minstrel]

A second point made by ldyguique is worth noting here: those "0 replies" posts.
Ahem...actually I brought that up and it was in reference to the New Member Introductions forum. After looking at the Site Review forum too, I can see the same applies there as well.
My apologies, Ron... I have to confess that I can't keep up with all of the forums here and "New Member Introductions" is one I rarely get time to visit - between the search engines ones, The Break Room, and occasional forays into IT, Internet Industry, Site Design, email Marketing, and Site Review, by the time I'm done there, I'm really done...

[ronniethedodger]

I have to confess that I can't keep up with all of the forums here and "New Member Introductions" is one I rarely get time to visit

Me too. But that is why I brought it up previously, and you and I are not the only two of the 30 who do not visit it.

I have welcomed a couple since I have been here, but they were in my area of the business or said something in their greeting that caught me eye and thought was interesting. And, then there is my buddy Ace -- but that is another topic on it's own! ;0)

The only reason I brought it up is I tried to look at it from their viewpoint, and what I have experienced. They post in the Intro area and the Review My Site area....the former they get ignored, and the latter they sometimes get torn apart. If they do post in the other forums -- they go largely un-noticed and are ignored again.

I was at another forum once, and right after posting to the Introduction area you were bombarded with welcome messages from about 20 different people. It really made you feel good to see all of that. Of course, as time went on and I started to welcome new people myself...I began to notice that the welcome messages were all the same (paste jobs) but hey it is the thought that counts.

[ronniethedodger]

I just saw this little thing pop up today.

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=55569&highlight=#55569

Check it out. Thought it to be pertinent to this topic.

This all transpired in the course of one day (today) too, which is really amazing. Way to go Minstrel!!!

I pass the beanie back to you! ;0) (and no, I am not explaining this remark....hehehehehe)

[Jurgen]

Now wait a minute here!

Here we are in a forum for "googles". The thread was split and you all talk about that "newbies" are turned away (or not) by responses of only a few members.

Let me tell you my story.... please..... :-)

I ran into this forum by accident. Great I thought, I submit my site for review, I wanted and needed input on my site. Guess what, no response at all. Well, so far so good... I kept on reading and learning from ALL the responses I looked into. And believe me, quiet a few gave me the answers I was looking for.

Another thing I wanted to point out is, most of the people in here are from "website", "webdesign", "computer...blahblah" sites which, when I look at these sites, are negleting everything what is propossed by you guys. That certainly scares me alot paying money for "those", wanting to sell me their help with my website needs.

Well, again, I love this forum and I am learning a lot from you guys. I did post some messages in the past trying to help other "newbies" with there needs as far as my knowledge allowed me. And I will continue to do so. In the course of reading and replying you get to know people (even so you don't personly know them), and appreciate there input and answers.

Janeth comes to mind, she is pretty much focused on link exchange and keywords. I totally aggree with her, and thank her for opening my eyes in that direction.

Ok, I will stop now.... What I wanted to say, many people are reading this forum, but just a few people are participating in the conversation. Is this bad???? I don't think so....

Jurgen
www.absolutelyfabulousflowers.com

[ronniethedodger]

So Jurgen, what you are saying is...although nobody here answered your questions directly, you got your answers indirectly through other threads started by other people?

You also gleaned through piles of responses, made by several or more individuals. Upon doing so, you came to know some of these people as far as their knowledge in certain areas and started to make your own judgements of what was good and what was bad advice.

You basicly used common sense and sifted thru the bull and not so bull (is that a sentence?) and you did it without anyone holding your hand along the way. You pieced it all together like a puzzle.

Now while this place may not be perfect. The fact is if people are here to actually learn, then they will learn. I don't think that we are doing them any favors in catering to their "freshness" on any given area or topic. Talk to them like you would talk to anyone else normally...if they have a question or do not understand it, they will ask.

I liken this to those parents who goo-goo talk to there cute little Willie til he is of age to go to Kindergarten....the poor kid gets this urge and raises his hand..."yes Willie?" and Willie says "I weewee need to wee-wee weewee bad."

[greeneagle]

Again, I want to reiterate the fact that this original post was not intended to be overly critical or to bash anyone in particular. I believe a little controversy can go a long way in getting answers that everyone wants and in generating traffic for a TOP INFORMATION SOURCE ON THE INTERNET!

I have been engaged in Research and Development ALL MY LIFE, working with 1000s of engineers, marketers and Fortune 500 leaders and I can definitely affirm this fact:

Education is applicable across all disciplines! A good R&D team or forum can bounce ideas off each other, which feeds a continuum that gets to the meat of the matter. Learning, by nature, is achieved at levels, and the truly wise can apply learning at any level across all disciplines, with the realization that it only requires translation of the language and terms used.

With this in mind:

At any given time, visitors outnumber members in a 2-4 to 1 ratio in these forums. Most are looking for some kind of help, definition or trying to relegate in-depth issues.

One responsibility that those of us that have been engaged in Internet design and commerce for some time have, is that we accurately portray (even through debate) present and future realities ------ NOT JUST WHAT OUR PAST EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN!

Granted, achieving these goals is difficult in an ever changing landscape. Moving targets are hard to hit! But, I don’t believe this is an elite skeet shooters event.

Some of the discourse I have been engaged in MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE unless of course, there is a complete disconnect between perspectives from differing tenses (ie.. GOOGLE PAST - PRESENT - FUTURE).

Another thing that we MUST keep a vigilance against is “sophisticated spamming runs”. The more senior should understand exactly what I mean by; “Sophisticated Spamming Runs” “

There are several knowledgeable posters, MVPs, Moderators and so on that have quite a bit to contribute here and I am not about to mention them all. There is one though, that I will continue to go and make sure that I read every single post: Those of “excell”. He or she posts what they have to say. It is always intelligent, knowing, at the heart of the matter, concise and not at all self serving.

I understand that a good way to kill a “dead thread” is to turn it into a goof or spoof session, but I have seen this happen on more than one occasion prematurely. This is very disruptive for those of us who are sincerely seeking answers and trying to figure out how to “re-landscape our yards”.

Again “true gains” are perpetuated by healthy exchange and everyone feeling welcome to bounce ideas all around. This definitely excludes directed “digs” in other threads including the “Break Room”.

Let’s address this issue of “spamming runs” briefly, for the newbies and greenies reading this thread. It has become obvious to certain senior posters that when having an answer to everyone as "last poster", several visitors may be tempted to check out their website causing an upswing in traffic. This causes Alexa and other search engines to rank their traffic higher and YADAYADAYADA. I hope you all got that!

I sincerely hope that as we go forward that visitors understand that “argument for argument’s sake” is questionable, and go on toward posts like those of “excell”

Let’s start with a bang! ----HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

Ken

[bubbasmurf]

Well said Ken, I take my Hat off to you.

[janeth]

There are a lot of great people that post here. There are some people that are friends with other people and some people that have problems with other people.

I'm no different I have people on this forum that I would do anything in the world for and others that I have had problems with.

There are people that think the way you show you know something is by trying to make everyone around you look stupid.

9 times out of 10 the other members see these people for what they are and it is stopped before any moderator or anyone else has to get involved.

I'm a member of a lot of forums, but this one by far is the best.

If you post something there is no one that will be jumping on you because if they do you will see the members step in.

There will always be people saying you did something wrong or they did not like the way you handled something that is life.

I have had a couple people on this forum ( which I can count on one hand ) that do not like the way I do SEO work. But then my site is ranked for over 200 key words in the top 20 on Google alone.

There are also people that like what I do that I can not even count.

From time to time a post will get off topic and people will start playing around for the most part the mods. Try to keep everything on topic but then it is those same people that give a lot of great FREE advice.

If someone has a problem all they have to do is ask. But I have no idea what this whole topic is about.

In plain English what is it you want to happen Greeneagle?

[greeneagle]

janeth,

I am at a complete loss at how to make it any clearer, maybe it is just a language barrier.

Ken

[minstrel]

maybe it is just a language barrier
I don't know - English is my first language and I was the one who said earlier I couldn't figure out what it was you were unhappy with. I have to say that I'm still not sure I understand, except for the Happy New Year part at the end. I was under the impression that there was something in the original thread that you thought wasn't said clearly enough for newcomers to understand...


Education is applicable across all disciplines... Learning, by nature, is achieved at levels, and the truly wise can apply learning at any level across all disciplines, with the realization that it only requires translation of the language and terms used.
This is an example - I don't get it. Are you trying to see that we need to dumb it down for newcomers?


One responsibility that those of us that have been engaged in Internet design and commerce for some time have, is that we accurately portray (even through debate) present and future realities
Another example - How does one accurately portray the future? except as a guess...


Some of the discourse I have been engaged in MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE unless of course, there is a complete disconnect between perspectives from differing tenses (ie.. GOOGLE PAST - PRESENT - FUTURE).
You've mentioned this before in a previous thread - again, I don't get your point. Has Google changed? Arguably, not really at all except that they are trying to change things to more vigorously penalize abuses that have always been on the books...


Another thing that we MUST keep a vigilance against is “sophisticated spamming runs”. The more senior should understand exactly what I mean by; “Sophisticated Spamming Runs”
Again, I'm confused - I think we all have a pretty good idea what spamming is and I think we're all pretty much agreed it's annoying, but bearing in mind where this thread started, who was spamming anyone there?


I understand that a good way to kill a “dead thread” is to turn it into a goof or spoof session, but I have seen this happen on more than one occasion prematurely. This is very disruptive for those of us who are sincerely seeking answers and trying to figure out how to “re-landscape our yards”.
Okay, here you seem to be telling us that you're unhappy with threads getting off-topic? If so, I agree - we do need to be a bit more vigilant, although I'm not sure that at the time your earlier comment popped up it was a problem in that particular thread - rather it was your message that spawned a series of answers that took the thread completely off topic - that's why I split it and moved it here.

(For those reading this who didn't see the original thread, it is here at New Google update for Christmas (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=10618). Greeneagle's first post, now at the top of this thread, was originally where you now see my note about splitting the topic and moving what followed here.)


This definitely excludes directed “digs” in other threads including the “Break Room”.
Okay - if this was/is your problem, that you're bothered by comments of members in one thread alluding to other threads, I don't see a problem with it as long as the meat of the post remains on topic. I don't believe that one has to eliminate a sense of humour or fun from a discussion to remain on topic, and I don't believe most people have any trouble distinguishing the two and extracting the information they want from the thread.


I sincerely hope that as we go forward that visitors understand that “argument for argument’s sake” is questionable
Sorry, Ken - again, I assume something in the previous thread displeased you but I for one still don't know what it was.

[ronniethedodger]

*sigh*

[bubbasmurf]

minstrel I think what Ken was trying to convey was

"This is a public forum and I hope we can all take the view that there is an intrinsic value for all levels that we should hold in close regard."


stressing intrinsic value for all levels

Just my thought.

[minstrel]

minstrel I think what Ken was trying to convey was, "This is a public forum and I hope we can all take the view that there is an intrinsic value for all levels that we should hold in close regard."
Okay, but I don't think anyone here disagrees with that or ever did - and I think scanning randomly through the threads on various topics at WebProWorld will demonstrate that people generally do respond to questions in different ways depending on who's asking the question and how it is asked, and when clarification is requested it's usually given quite promptly.

Part of what puzzles me is that Ken's comment back in the original thread seemed to come out of the blue: I assume something sparked it but I still have no idea what bothered him.

[ronniethedodger]

Part of what puzzles me is that Ken's comment back in the original thread seemed to come out of the blue: I assume something sparked it but I still have no idea what bothered him.

...and I concur.

Then the "new" topic set up to address whatever Ken had a problem with to begin with, goes on for a few days without any response from Ken.

Then out of the blue he pops back in with another response. Outside of his opening line with some sort of apology in it, and the ending line about Happy Holidays...I did not understand a single word of it.

His concerns that he addressed in his first post about how we need to stay on topic and "dumbing down" our responses to make it easier on newbies to glean information from it sparked the moving of those posts into it's own topic by Minstrel. More replies are entered into this new topic, which did not stray off and written in English language as I know it to be.

Then out of the blue he comes in and rather than answer the question put to him by Minstrel and a couple of others (What upset him to make the post in the first place?) Ken only offers an apology without explanation of what he is apologizing for, a Holiday Greeting, and (quite frankly) a whole bunch of gibberish in between.

If his intent was to demonstrate how some of our comments can be viewed by newbies as coming from a foreign language and completely incomprehinsable, then he succeeded.

If his intent was to further befuddle us with off-topic talk about the Great Spamming Ghost of Google-past, Google-present, and Google-future...again he has succeded on the part too.

Now if his intent was to make a point....then great!

But I still think he needs to clarify it a little more for those same people that he standing up for in the first place...and one of those people is ME !!! For I am still in the dark, and have no clue as to what he is really trying to tell me outside of maybe the fact...and correct me if I am wrong...."He is sorry about the Google Ghosts coming yesterday, today, and tomorrow and he hopes that it won't ruin our Holiday spirits" ;0)

[greeneagle]

ronniethedodger wrote:

Then the "new" topic set up to address whatever Ken had a problem with to begin with, goes on for a few days without any response from Ken.

Then out of the blue he pops back in with another response. Outside of his opening line with some sort of apology in it, and the ending line about Happy Holidays...I did not understand a single word of it.
_______________

1) I guess you have no familial obligations over holidays. I do, which includes a terminally ill 41 year old younger sister with a rare form of lung cancer. Some of us have to travel during holidays.
2) Sometimes replies aren't merited, risking degradation of a thread into personal vendettas.
3) Most of the time I like to think about what, why and how I post, before I do.
4) Sometimes a thread is worth letting die instead of dredging it back up, especially when what needed to be said was done succinctly and eloquently in the first place.
5) Some of us do have obligations to clients with varying loads.

You really did misunderstand!, --- I don’t know how anything I said could have been misinterpreted as an apology.

It was very hard having what might be my last Christmas with my sister, especially hard after having a younger brother chopped up and killed under a brush hog on the family farm a couple years ago. Yes I actually took a couple days off!

I have seen several threads running slow over the holidays. Is this the only one you singled out?

Yes, I agree it is like we are on different planets and absolutely don’t understand each other. In most of the argumentative replies you place after most of my posts, I fail too see what is even being debated and why.

If I fail to answer a thread or answer one slowly in the future, refer to 1 thru 5 above.

Ken

[greeneagle]

rlrouse posts are valuable, to the point and he is obviously very knowledgeable.

My comments were not in any way meant to denegrate what he had to say!

When reading through the thread the term "SERPS" was used several times by different members. Not everyone knows what that means. I was simply pointing out the fact that this happens frequently in certain threads, and that everyone may get more value if better writing practices were observed.

Sometimes in our rush we fail to stop and explain. One way to help newbies is for someone to stop and make a quick explanation post in higher level threads if they see this happening.

The second, was that threads seem to dissintegrate prematurely sometimes. This was also confirmed both in private e-mails and other postings.

The third value offering I tried to make was that there is a risk that prolific posters could possibly be doing so to boost personal website rankings, especially those that repeatedly display little value or are just argumentative in nature.

I don't think that an honest attempt at trying to contribute these 3 suggestions deserve a railing!

The next time I have any suggestions, I will take them to the suggestion forum.

Ken

[janeth]

Greeneagle,

I think that one problem was the fact that we did not understand what you where talking about.

If you had just asked what "SERPS" meant it would have made things a lot easier.

At this time i have people standing here waiting for me and have very little time. To define each word we use would take way to much time.

SEO is short for search engines optimization the reason people say seo is to save time. There are a lot of words like this and to take the time to explain every word in every post would make them hard to read and would be a waste of time.

I think if someone needs to know what a word means all you have to do is ask. People here would be more then happy to answer.


Not sure what prolific posters means but my thought is your saying people post for no reason at all.

I have not seen this but I know sometimes I may post something short to let someone know I agree with them or that I saw the post so they do not think it went out and no one cared.

Again I do not see this as a problem and it is done more to be nice then anything else.

[minstrel]

I'm sorry to hear about the stresses and losses you are dealing with, greeneagle - I know that such things are especially difficult at this time of year when there is so much "pressure" on us all to be happy and joyful.

Nonetheless, I think I have to point out that the reason this thread is where it is now is that you popped up in the middle of that other thread with what was clearly a complaint about something and it wasn't clear to most or maybe all what exactly that was about.


When reading through the thread the term "SERPS" was used several times by different members. Not everyone knows what that means. I was simply pointing out the fact that this happens frequently in certain threads, and that everyone may get more value if better writing practices were observed.
If you had simply said this the first time around, none of us would have been left scratching our heads and saying, "what is it he didn't like?"... to put it bluntly, the problem was created partly because you failed to follow your own advice. I for one could not for the life of me understand what it was you were unhappy about, either in the initial post or in your later "clarification".


The third value offering I tried to make was that there is a risk that prolific posters could possibly be doing so to boost personal website rankings, especially those that repeatedly display little value or are just argumentative in nature.
Frankly, other than the obvious spammers who quickly get deleted and, if there are repeated offenses, banned, I have to say I think this is nonsense. For a start, I don't think any of the regular posters you are pointing to here need that sort of boost to their site hits, even if it worked.


I don't think that an honest attempt at trying to contribute these 3 suggestions deserve a railing! The next time I have any suggestions, I will take them to the suggestion forum.
The initial replies to your first post included a couple agreeing with portions of what you might have been trying to say - many of the ones that followed were either trying to clarify what you said or disputing the accuracy of what we interpreted at the time to be your criticisms, or asking for clarification - I'm not sure that qualifies as "a railing". Again, I recognize that this must have been been a very stressful time for you and that perhaps accounts for the lack of clarity in your posts, but I would also point out that it was the rather enigmatic style of your posts that created the problem in the first place.

[matauri]

I feel like Fireman Bob lately...so many fires !

Ken, there is an easy solution to this. Each forum has Moderators for a reason. They aren't only there to chop up threads, they are also there to give assistance if needed there. If something is bothering you, the best place to turn to is one of those Mods, & discuss the situation with them. It is highly likely that they would be able to solve the problem, and if not they can discuss with other Mods (in Mod Forum) the problem, and usually come up with an acceptable outcome.

To the rest... I'm sorry, but I can see where Ken is coming from in some respect. Cliches form very easily on forums & in chat rooms, and often an 'outsider' is retisent to oppose a wave of opinion because of this. Even though we all have very obstinate points of view about particular topics, I don't think it would hurt to leave a post with a question to invite outside opinion. Even with something as lame as "Is this what Google is all about?" invites an outsider into the conversation.

Also, and this is my pet peeve.... why is it that evertime someone who is the topic of conversation, disappears for a few days...that they are running away from the topic at hand?? I have unfinished topics probably all over the forum. I hope everytime someone doesnt think I have run away...because I havent :-) I just have better things to do with my time.

So heed up, there is a prob on all sides. Lets see if we can work 'on it' together, and everyone make a few adjustments. The last thing we want is for newbies to WPW to read threads like this.

<<<waits for the knives ! ;-)


Cindy

[minstrel]

Cliches form very easily on forums & in chat rooms, and often an 'outsider' is retisent to oppose a wave of opinion because of this. Even though we all have very obstinate points of view about particular topics, I don't think it would hurt to leave a post with a question to invite outside opinion. Even with something as lame as "Is this what Google is all about?" invites an outsider into the conversation.
Cliques form everywhere that people gather - it's a basic part of social psychology. I take your point that sometimes, in any group, newcomers to the group may feel some hesitation or reticence about joining in, but newcomers to WebProWorld clearly DO manage to overcome that reticence - just look through any random selection of posts over the past couple of weeks - they not only join in, they join in discussions where the "regulars" are debating and joking back and forth - and when they do, most of the time they are enthusiastically welcomed. That is part of my point in responding to greeneagle - I think he's attacking a straw man.


Also, and this is my pet peeve.... why is it that evertime someone who is the topic of conversation, disappears for a few days...that they are running away from the topic at hand??
I don't necessarily assume that and I agree we shouldn't be assuming that. However, in this case, Ken basically "told us off" in a way that many of us didn't understand and then left the rest of us here feeling chastised and trying to figure out the what and why...


So heed up, there is a prob on all sides. Lets see if we can work 'on it' together, and everyone make a few adjustments.
But again, I don't see that the problem is a real one - it's a straw man, as I said - it's rather like saying, "I don't think we should allow spamming here" when no one is arguing otherwise...

[janeth]

Hi Cindy,

I always thought that every post was meant for and an attempt to get the views from everyone.

Although I do love talking to the people here I love even more to see a new member and I'm always happy to see when they post.

I also try to do site reviews because this is where most people start out.

I never felt the need for a ? on every post because the topic is open and it is a forum for people to post what they think.

I also felt like when Ken got time he would come back and post an answer. I never felt like he was gone and he has always answered before.

I did not see the fire you where putting out but maybe that's just me. All I was doing was trying to understand the problem Ken was having.

[Sualdam]

I agree with ldyguigue that we do tend to stray off topic. And that there are freindships, in some cases, alliances that are formed between the members. But this tends to happen in the real world at company meetings or seminars anyway.
In which case it is the responsibility of moderators, MVPs, and anyone else who realises it is happening not to let such silly schoolyard alliances cloud their decisions and opinions... and to try to prevent others from ruining the forums by entering into such alliances. That's probably what the original poster was getting at.

Just because alliances happen doesn't make them right.

Although the original poster wasn't very clear, if he was perhaps also referring to 'cliqueiness' evolving in these forums then he has a point.

Cliqueiness is also something that happens naturally in forums such as these. The real trick is to prevent and/or manage it appropriately and not to let personal issues or prejudices get in the way.

And that's MY 2 cents. :)

<edit: and reading to the end, I agree wholeheartedly with Cindy. Ironic, or what? ;)>

[greeneagle]

Since this thread went to today's top position on the front page and is getting quite a bit of traffic let's try and turn it into something that is a little more constructive and fits the title it was given.

Janeth mentioned that a lot of newbies start out on the "Submit a Site for Review" Forum. That is a good place to go and get quick help. It is a very fast running forum.

Would anyone else like to recommend favorite forums to visitors?

[rlrouse]

In forums such as this one, acronyms and abbreviations are par for the course. The same topics come up time and again, and we try to get our points across as clearly and quickly as possible.

Most regular participants are familiar with the most-used terms, or will become so after reading a few of the posts.

Simple requests for clarification are almost always answered quickly and in a friendly manner here at WebProWorld. Similar requests in other forums are often answered with a terse lecture on using the site's glossary or site search function.

I think the best approach is to assume that most paticipants are familiar with the most common terms and acronyms and provide a fast, friendly clarification when asked. Otherwise, this forum would become clogged with definitions and explanations that have been repeated many times before.

[janeth]

ronniethedodger wrote:


I agree with ldyguigue that we do tend to stray off topic. And that there are freindships, in some cases, alliances that are formed between the members. But this tends to happen in the real world at company meetings or seminars anyway.

Sualdam wrote:

In which case it is the responsibility of moderators, MVPs, and anyone else who realises it is happening not to let such silly schoolyard alliances cloud their decisions and opinions... and to try to prevent others from ruining the forums by entering into such alliances. That's probably what the original poster was getting at.

Just because alliances happen doesn't make them right.

Janeth wrote:

I have been here for awhile and have never seen this as being a problem. Is there a thread we are talking about or are we just looking for problems that are not here?

I also get at lest two or three emails a day from new members talking about how much they love it here.

I'm a member of a lot of forums and this is by far the best. Everyone I talk to says the samething.

I think we are trying to find problems where there are none and if you look into what is going on I think you will find that rlrouse hit the problem that GreenEagle was having on the head.

Thanks Rlrouse.

[Gary Golden]

From my standpoint pretty much anything I have had a question about before this forum came online is pretty much answered within these pages. If you take the time to review past posts in one of the many topics of discussion you can find your answers.
If the answer does not go to quite the detail that you want, there is usually avenues available where you can achieve the end.
What people have to understand is that the internet is an ever growing and changing environment and sometimes answers delve into areas webmasters do not want to go into unless they are being paid, justifiably so! To get your site noticed is not going to happen over night, it's not as simple as putting up a web page and getting business it is a process of trial and error and any one that has been online for any period of time will not give up there secrets.
You can find an abundance of great information on this site but what it takes is dedication and a work ethic that treats your online business just like a brick and mortar business. Unfortunately there are alot of people who think that simply by putting up a web page they are going to be millionaires and this is definately not the case.
Of course with the thousands upon thousands of posts I guess if you wanted to take the time to read everything here you could pretty much answer any questions you could possibly have.
In conclusion I think you will get out of your web experience exactly what you put into it!

[Sualdam]

Just because alliances happen doesn't make them right.
Perhaps I should also add, then...

...just because we as individuals cannot see these alliances doesn't mean they aren't happening and having an effect.

No one is trying to find problems, Janeth.

The original poster raised a point and at least a couple of people agree (if they understood correctly).

Perhaps we just need to be aware of the potential for issues to escalate in future if we, as moderators, don't keep our minds open for them.

All forums are cliquey - it happens naturally. And the last people who can see it are the members of the cliques. It's nature :)

The problems start when a new member posts something and is immediately 'shouted down' by the regulars.

Rather than just tell them they're wrong, surely the best solution - since an argument over whether they are right or wrong is unlikely to be won - is just to PROVE them wrong through actions?

;)

[greeneagle]

One thing that I need to keep in mind is that this is an International Forum and there will be language barriers.

English is not a First language for many. Even in English speaking countries may words and terms have different connotations and can cause misunderstandings.

Maybe the best thing to do is keep it as simple as possible instead of trying to be articuately precise.

Ken

[Rod Swift]

I'm afraid I disagree with greeneagle.

I for one appreciate the time and effort that the regulars spend on giving us the benefit of their experience. I have certainly learnt a lot.

We are all under time pressure so keeping the answers short and to the point is a win-win situation as it takes less time to write and to read.

If somebody doesn't understand something they can always ask. In my experience most contributors are very polite and helpful.

[minstrel]

The problems start when a new member posts something and is immediately 'shouted down' by the regulars.
That isn't what happened in this thread, though...


Rather than just tell them they're wrong, surely the best solution - since an argument over whether they are right or wrong is unlikely to be won - is just to PROVE them wrong through actions?
I agree - that's why I've suggested repeatedly that anyone who wants to should pick a few threads randomly and read through them. Show me where newcomers are being squelched or shouted down, because I don't see it and in my experience generally the opposite is true...

[Unclefussy]

Very interesting to say the least.

As a New one to this forum I am only going to add my .01 cent here.

I have only asked 2 questions here and both were answered very quickly, there were parts of it I did not under stand right off, though I figured it out. Other parts that I will be asking more questions on and I thank you now for your help.

I went looking for the answer here in the fourms and found it, I did have to weed through the posts that got off topic and turned into the oldies have fun.
Would be better to keep the fun stuff in the breakroom, they can get hard to find what you are looking for.

I feel that if you don't understand something,,, ASK FIRST!

I am in another forum that is 3 1/2 years old now and when a new one does a post to introduce themselves the responce is HUGE, not here and we should try to welcome the new ones, I never did a post in that thread, I looked at it and saw no one, well almost no one said hello or welcomed the new ones so why should I post there? I know many don't have the time but a quick howdee would be good.

So in short, we need to ask if we don't understand something.
Welcome the new ones.
Keep on topic and take the fun to the breakroom.

See you all soon and thanks for all your help..

*sigh*


NOW PLAYING

*sigh II* ( 'the sequel')





DAREN

[greeneagle]

Before this goes too far down the wrong road. Let’s clarify something else:

No where in any of my posts did I recommend spelling out every acronym!

I used one as an example of potential newbie barriers due to complex nature of some threads. In this particular thread rlrouse brought something very good to the table and it occurred to me that because it was snapped up by several seniors and tossed back and forth that mid-level types down might not understand what was being delivered. I had also seen this before.

I simply wanted to interject the fact that sometimes it might be a nice courtesy for us to remember that not everyone is at a senior level!

I still think that is what I said.

My biggest mistake was probably the delivery tone.

I suppose that the tone did come from the an aggravation because it seemed like I was going to be clobbered on every post I made.

Sometimes the controversy get issues aired in more depth faster as long as everyone stays within accepted rules of engagement.

Ken

[matauri]

I am in another forum that is 3 1/2 years old now and when a new one does a post to introduce themselves the responce is HUGE, not here and we should try to welcome the new ones, I never did a post in that thread, I looked at it and saw no one, well almost no one said hello or welcomed the new ones so why should I post there? I know many don't have the time but a quick howdee would be good.

You are soooo right. I'll step up to the plate and admit guilt on that! I must admit it is one part of the forum that I dont go into much, and I will rectify that as of now. My apologies to those new people who took the time to post in the Introductions forum and got ignored.

Maybe I missed out on getting to know a valuable resource because I didnt take the time to say G'day. My loss :-(

These kind of discussions are of great value to forums such as these. Every so often dirty laundry needs to be aired to find where we are lacking. The knack is to accept guilt where it lies and not try to justify it.

Admittedly time is a factor sometimes, but at least we are being made aware of inadequecies.



Cindy

[janeth]

Hi Unclefussy and welcome,

Yes you are right and I will also try and make sure I say something to the new members. I feel bad now.

But on the other side I do agree with Minstrel and would love to see the post where the new member was attacked.

I do hope I was not the one doing the attacking.

[Sualdam]

I don't think it would help if anyone posted any 'examples' of people being put down :)

At all.

Let's all take on board what's been said and either act on it or ignore it, each as we see fit ;)

[gone]

If I may interject something here, being a newbie to your BB and a minor point of discusion on this thread? I have debated for sometime if I would join in the forums.
First the tactics to get the word out about this site are relentless, blocked emails are circumvented by this site and DEV forcing me to deal with 2 and 3 emails a day, whether blocked or not. This point is a bit irritating to say the least but not being a newbie in all fields I know abit about SQL and if left no choice would make my intentions known.

Seeing the tactics used I assumed that we would get an increase in spam, true to form, we did. Today I suspect someone (Thea Garrett SERegister) observing this forum Backdoored My Mail Program to let me know that they could help my wifes business.

Now, what is the upside?

I posted in the “Summit your site forum” and got 3 responses in 5 days after bumping the thread up 3 times. I see that there are Pros here in this field of webpage design and some will say that they like greeting newbies, I’ve seen no evidence of that thus far, but the folks who have responded are pleasant and helpful, for which I am grateful. I’m a bit reluctant to post more frequently so not to appear to be spamming your site. I have just noticed the option of shutting off the Signature to avoid any question of my intentions and until this mail situation is resolved I will exercise said option.

I am, in concert with others a Administrator on Another Forums, completely voluntary, with no commercial intent. The point of the board is to help newbies, sometimes with information, sometimes with free computers or parts and pieces to move into the internet world. The difference is remarkable, without benefit to themselves many folks from a variety of backgrounds will greet the newbie whether to just say HI and move the thread to the top, or to contribute to their inquiry in a friendly exchange of ideas.

Now, if folks are not greeted by a MOD or ADMIN here, and suspect they are targeted by observers without the foundation of a friendly response by the members, this whole project could be unrightly suspected as nothing more then a place to Farm email addresses and web sites. IMHO

This is a log of resent experience, not be taken as a slam. I knew what I was in for but many don’t have a clue. Please keep that in mind. Thank You

[minstrel]

I agree, Sualdam - my comment was meant more to encourage people to look through the different forums at WebProWorld and make up their own minds. I think people generally do quite a good job at welcoming and helping new members here.

That doesn't mean we can't find ways to improve, of course - I just don't want anyone who may be here for the first time today to be left left with the impression that they'll be attacked if they post a question.

[matauri]

I don't think it would help if anyone posted any 'examples' of people being put down :)
At all.
Let's all take on board what's been said and either act on it or ignore it, each as we see fit ;)

Yes, I agree Sualdam.

I think they got enough coverage the first time round.


Cindy

[janeth]

Now I was not talking about people being put down.

I have been attacked by members who had only posted 1 time, or less then 100 and by guest those are things that we can not help.


I do think you will find that 9 times out of 10 you will see the regular members stand up for the person being attacked but my point was I have never seen a member with over 300 post attack a new member or a guest just because they posted.

The reason I say 300 is because those are the ones that would be posting a lot although you have people like Ronniethedodger and others that have only been here a little but already post a lot.

This is a great forum and I hate for it to look like something happenes here that is not true or that I have never seen happen and I spend a lot of time here.

[Sualdam]

It'd be a wonderful world if situations didn't arise where anyone has to 'stick up' for anyone else.

That is the point I'm trying to make: if we take on board the concerns that one or two people have - even if we don't agree, can't see it, or if it involves a tiny minority of members - then things will run perhaps a little more smoothly than they might if we don't.

Like I say, Janeth, just because we as individuals aren't aware of or cannot see certain issues doesn't mean they don't exist (and vice versa, of course).

We aren't going to decide by argument either a) that there is a problem or b) that there isn't. My opinion that there IS a problem is just as valid as your opinion that there ISN'T.

All we can do is acknowledge other people's opinions and bear them in mind if situations arise in future :)

[heatherglynn]

Hi to all newbies and experts

Thank you to all who have helped me with my site over the past few months. I'm a relative newbie and don't know much of the Jargon on this subject but have been able to ask simple 'specific'questions and have managed to obtain simple, direct to the point answers. As for having friends on the site, great!! I have not found this site to be exclusive and hey it's natural to form friendships.

Happy New Year to ALL!!

[Brittany]

Wow, great topic guys! Thanks to greeneagle for bringing it up, minstrel for making it its own thread, and everyone who replied for sharing your unique perspectives. Everyone is bringing up good points, so forgive me for not being able to reply to each of you individually. Instead, I'm replying to a few key issues.


This is a great forum and I hate for it to look like something happenes here that is not true or that I have never seen happen and I spend a lot of time here.

Looking at the original post, I think what Ken was getting at is the importance of explaining yourself and choosing your words wisely because not everyone here is an 'expert' and it's all too easy to misinterpret statements made online. As rlrouse said, little things we overlook, such as the use of abbreviations, can be very confusing to newbies. When I was just starting out using online forums and instant messengers, for the longest time, I thought "LOL" meant "Lots of Love." Imagine how silly I felt when someone finally explained to me that I was "Laughing Out Loud" rather than expressing my feelings! ;)

One question that's always on my mind is: how to get new members more involved? People are often shy or cautious in terms of posting. Many seem reluctant to just dive right into conversations. How can we make them feel more welcome? Automated welcome emails to all new members and replies to each new post in the introductions forum are just two great suggestions.

I think this thread is good overall for WebProWorld. It's often hard to step back and look at your own site from another perspective, so it's great to have all of you around to offer your opinions. It's also encouraging to see that most of the members realize WebProWorld is not perfect (we're always looking for ways to improve ourselves) but that you enjoy the forum enough to keep returning, and even offer words of encouragement. Thanks for the constructive criticism! :)

Brittany

[greeneagle]

In the heat of discussion it looks like a new member interjected an issue that was not picked up. I am not sure whether it belongs here, in another thread or answered by email. Could one of the moderators or some who can help have a look (page 2)?

gone said:
If I may interject something here, being a newbie to your BB and a minor point of discusion on this thread? I have debated for sometime if I would join in the forums.
First the tactics to get the word out about this site are relentless, blocked emails are circumvented by this site and DEV forcing me to deal with 2 and 3 emails a day, whether blocked or not. This point is a bit irritating to say the least but not being a newbie in all fields I know abit about SQL and if left no choice would make my intentions known...

Thanks,
Ken

[computers]

Speaking for myself only, we were all "newbies" once, and we "geeks" have the benifit of much experience, so in that vein, it's always a good idea to spell things out clearly for all the newbies. And I do sometimes forget to spell things out!

Anywho, I'd like to extend my services of computer support to all, no charge ever, to help someone out with computer problems and/or questions, send an email to support@customcomputerhaven.com anytime. I'll be reinstalling live support in the next couple of weeks which (when reinstalled) will be available from 8:30AM to 10PM EST Monday through Friday.

i think we all owe ourselves some humility and remember back when we didn't know as much.....if we jam up this thread with a "you must listen to my professional point of view" peeing contest then all we are going to do is scare away the newcomer...the newbie..the person who is just learning the difference between a jpg and a gif.....and the newcomer is the most important member to this website (WPW) at any given time because the newcomers are eventually going to be the very people who are going to jump out of nowhere one day and steal away from you the very jobs that you probably take for granted right now....



hey man i'm posting this (from my archives from anoher forum) to show you that i'm on your side too...and i apologize for any posts that have ever seemed self serving to you.

but i would also like to point out that i have never seen any WPW MOD or vet or mvp take any derisive posture nor ostracize the newbie in any way....

in fact, on the contrary, i can only speak from experience becasue i live w/ a newbie here on WPW who is TERRIFIED to post anything well, just becasue she's a newbie and doesn't know a lot of the terminology but she also understands that one day in time she will....and the staff at WPW went OUT OF THEIR WAY to make her feel more comfortable and i commend them highly for that!!! and numers other members even PM 'd her to give her some reference/starting pointers.....

hey man it's real easy to complain......try wearing a MODs' shoes for one day and i'm sure you see that their's is no easy task...they are beseeched by all sides & politics to respond.....and they must walk that delicate line between Moderating and Policing and i think they do a smashing job at it

look at me i'm probably one of the most annoying poster's ever on this site but i dont give a ___ because if i'm anoying then it's your problem not mine really...
i've even put plenty of posts up that were immediately taken down because well...i'm a little nuts and sometimes i just dont think before i hit the RETURN button but i every case i got a PM explaining why the necessary course of action ws taken....and of course i understood

but if you read through a lot of my shenagianlike posts that do endure you will also see gems of sincerity and pearls of honesty that, i hope you all realize, are the true elements in the overall message...

i have not come accross any WPW members that are enduring personalities here that don't go out of their way to help the newcomer.....

i have coded pages, made logos for free, made flash files for free......to many a newbie.....but i admit i'm not jesus and yes i work at a computer 18 hour days at times and yes there are time when i don't wish/have the time to take a lenghtly explanation to a newbies ears.....and i just want to see who is goofing off in the break room......just like in the 2nd grade when my favorite subject was lunch and my second favorite was gym.....there are times in life when the banalities of existence are only alleviated by trivial pun2pun quidProquo joke for joke exchanges between human beings.

the days that i don't laugh are the days that i feel dead : (



DAREN

php timeout ooops

sorry my bad--this is not sophisticated spam i swear to god

[red]

Wow! What a tremendous topic! I think I'd get less attention if I set my own hair on fire...on camera (:
So many diverse opinions and so much energy; I'm tired from reading it all and at the same time glad that I did.
Everyone has raised a valid, and/or a thought provoking opinion. Bravo!
I was raised that NO opinion was wrong...after all, it is only an opinion. How can it be wrong?
In all of my management courses I was taught to be very cautious and to always choose my words (verbal or written) very carefully because people perceive them very differently. Interpretation of our words seems to be at the root of some of these (very heated) posts.
To get back on topic, the young lady that mentioned that we were all newbies once is right on. There may be a lot of "Geeks" here (and I thank God for that!)
but there are many specialties and sub-specialties mastered by the WPW forum members. Many of us know little or nothing about what another member's profession actually IS.
I have fully admitted to knowing a little bit about a lot of subjects- that makes me dangerous with the exception of my own area of expertise.
If I didn't have all of you to rely on my world would be sheer bedlam!
Because of the generosity I've been shown I am always happy to help with questions regarding SEO (Search Engine Optimization) and copywriting as it pertains to the web. Feel free to email me or leave a private message if you're uncomfortable about posting.
I believe in "Paying it Forward", just like in the book and hope that the Christmas Wish List goes year 'round.
Happy New Year Everyone! And THANKS for an informative and entertaining 2003!

[janeth]

Hi Red

Very good post I love the part


"I was raised that NO opinion was wrong...after all, it is only an opinion. How can it be wrong?
In all of my management courses I was taught to be very cautious and to always choose my words (verbal or written) very carefully because people perceive them very differently."

[ronniethedodger]

Since this thread went to today's top position on the front page and is getting quite a bit of traffic let's try and turn it into something that is a little more constructive and fits the title it was given.

Thanks Ken...but it got pushed down again. So I am grabbing the baton from you...and passing it on up the line again. ;0)


Janeth mentioned that a lot of newbies start out on the "Submit a Site for Review" Forum. That is a good place to go and get quick help. It is a very fast running forum.


The one forum that new members post to first, outside of the Site Review, is the New Member Introductions area. Another is the Submitted Photos, but that is usually down the line a bit.

I have noticed a few people going into the New Member Introduction Forum now (probably as a result of this thread) and just saying "Hi" or writing a few words in recognition of where they are from or that they like their site. Some greetings are obvious cut & paste jobs, but the thought really does matter here.

This takes very little time to do in comparison to doing a Site Review on top of that, and I encourage everyone to drop a line. Even if all you have time for is just a few off of the top of the list. It is really easy to do and goes a long way. Although, I tend to skip any that has the word "free" in title.

One thing that posting a hello does, is that it offers them their very first chance to post a response back....on their own ground, in their own topic. It breaks down a lot of barriers right off the bat, makes them feel welcomed, feel more at ease and it get's them involved. So...just say Hi-ya.

And if you do the cut & paste job, spell out "Welcome to WPW" okay! The person who is doing this knows who she is...and it won't tolerated any more, okay young lady? ;0)

[carju1]

Wow I'll have to visit this part of the forum more often, nice thread. I agree with Ken's overal perception of what can happen on WPW but would like to add my own thoughts / comments.

1. Clarity of posts. - I have just read the original 'google changes' post that started this discussion. I have to admit that in reality I didn't understand the specifics of it. I understood the generality - Google have made a minor change, here's what to do to check. The question therefore is - Is that a problem and the answer is NO. I only have a few public sites that I worry about rankings (all are top 5 for the keywords I/they want). Reading that post, I thought, does this cause me a problem, I checked via a normal google search and they were all still ranked top 5 - conclusion no problem. Yes that post was full of jargon, BUT it wasn't aimed at newbies, it was a high level heads up to other SEO experts. If I wanted more info I could have asked. We all have to bear in mind that some posts in here aren't intended for newbies, most posts fit into either, simple, general or specific and there is enough of a mix to keep members happy.

2. Threads going off topic - It does happen and shouldn't. The place for off topic threads and general quirkiness is the break room. We should all (especially the estabilshed members) bear this in mind when posting, each forum is clearly designated for its topic subject and thats what should be covered. Perhaps the Mods (including myself here) should split more topics when they move away from the original topic to a different subject.

3. Cliquiness - Yes it does happen but I don't think this is a neccassarily a bad thing. I could have easilly started this post with 'Much as I hate to agree with Matauri & Sauldam ...' it establishes bonds between the members and doesn't exclude anyone. What happens more is a predictability of posting (In site design, if someone posts about frames you know I'll jump in and you can bet if someone says it doesn't work in some obscure browser the poster will be Carbonize), this trait then gets refered to by other regular members. Sorry thats the way life is, people use 'in' termanology and reference, but when responding to 'newbies' I do notice people are usually more careful in the choice of words.

4. Welcomes and Moderating - Each Mod is actually only responsible for the forums that they Moderate, we all try to help each other out and of course contribute in other forums but most of us don't have the time to check all the forums on WPW every day. I don't think I've been in the Introductions forum in months and I've never been in the MLM one. Also in case anyone doesn't realise we only have Mod powers in our designated forums. I can't edit or delete anything more in this forum that a one post newbie. Yes it would be nice to pop into Introductions and welcome someone but there are only so many hours in ad ay. Perhaps a new Mod or two should be appointed with the specific task of Welcoming new members?

5. Overall - This forum is a balancing act between newbies and existing members. If Janeth posts a heavy duty specific question in SEO I would expect Rlouse to reply with a detailed technical explaination that I don't understand. Just as I know if a newbie posts a simplistic question in there Janeth or someone else will respond with a clear simple answer. The overall feel we have to try to get across on WPW is BOTH a friendly place where newbies can ask 'newbie' questions and get a nice response AND where a 'Pro' can ask a detailed techie question and get a detailed techie response.

Julian

[janeth]

Hi Ron,

I was just trying to catch up there was a lot of them. lol

I´m sorry and there will be no more cut and paste on my part I promise.

It would help if the people that wanted to say Hi could some how get a private email when a new member post there just so we know.

I´m getting old and it is hard for me to remember to check there from time to time. When I do check I´m not sure who I have already said Hi to and who I have not said Hi to.

[matauri]

I could have easilly started this post with 'Much as I hate to agree with Matauri & Sauldam ...' it establishes bonds between the members and doesn't exclude anyone.
Resistance is futile ! ;-)

In regards to your section on Clarity of Posts, thats why I think that there should be a category that caters to the newbie to intermediates in fields such as SEO, site designs, graphic design, programming, etc. (the main core subjects) An eager beaver willing to learn would probably like to know the same answer as a Pro does, but doesnt have the vocabulary/understanding of the Pro. I know I am the same in Flash & Programming. I realize that these guys know what they are talking about, but I am a few steps behind them & end up having to read a lot of external material just to know what they are talking about when they discuss a problem. I dont like to interupt their thread with silly questions, so I sit on the sidelines & just try & understand.

Remember, the Internet has made the most progress in the past few years, the years that most of us have been in the industry. So we have grown into areas like a comfortable pairs of shoes. Others are completely new to many areas of IT (internet technology), so they are on a completely different level. Another forum where people wouldnt feel intimidated to ask the 'simple' questions would give them a good learning point, and would also provide the more experienced people an avenue in which to develop their teaching abilities.


Perhaps a new Mod or two should be appointed with the specific task of Welcoming new members?

Thats not such a bad idea really. I have been involved with forums that have done that before. It is a pretty time consuming position though at times, because shyer posters establish a bond with that person & use them as a support person.


Cindy

[Unclefussy]

Good morning all, 5.30AM here in SW Colorado and snowing lightly,,,,

Just to bring this up again


Threads going off topic - It does happen and shouldn't. The place for off topic threads and general quirkiness is the break room. We should all (especially the estabilshed members) bear this in mind when posting, each forum is clearly designated for its topic subject and thats what should be covered

Like I said before I have been doing a LOT of reading here and learning a lot and I thank you all. The off topic posts though is what makes it the hardest, trying to learn something and having to go through the off topic fun comments gets old and you loose interest after so long as you feel this is going nowhere and it take to much time to go through it all.


would love to see the post where the new member was attacked.

In all of the reading I have done here I have not found one, did I miss it??

All Have a great day,, THINK SNOW!!

[Jenny Campbell]

Have just spent ages reading through this thread and as someone who has only recently really got going on the subject would like to offer a couple of suggestions/comments.

It is not a problem to most people if there are cliques so long as people continue to respond to newbies and support and respond in a helpful manner - this generally is the case as far as I can see. It is easy at times to be oversensitive to comments which may have been hastily written and had not deliberately meant to cause offence or irritation.

I don't think that there have been any occasions where people have been anything but helpful in any of the responses to my postings - including when I asked for advice when I first built my website - I only got helpful advice, positive comments and constructive criticism - no-one tried to belittle my efforts or deliberately try to confuse by being too technical.

It would be helpful however, to those of us who have some though not enough knowledge of jargon, if the moderators or someone else there at WPW could keep an online dictionary of terms for those who would like to check the meaning but don't have the time to hunt through previous threads to find out! If this does already exist then please could its location be clearer and perhaps pointed out to new members.

Don't let a great discussion forum get bogged down by people griping about things that probably only concern very few postings and even fewer individuals!

Jen

[Sualdam]

Perhaps a new Mod or two should be appointed with the specific task of Welcoming new members?
Wouldn't that be like a government smewhere employing minister for 'The Sun Rising in the Morning'?

Did you get an army surplus drum of sugar-coating syrup for Christmas, Julian? :)

I don't think this was what the original post was about.

The only thing there is even the slightest problem with is cliqueiness, it seems. And it is slight - just something to watch out for in future (or continue to deny the existence of - whichever suits you ;))

So why would we all of a sudden need 'Welcoming Moderators'? I didn't see that one coming at me out of the sun, I can assure you :)

Reminds me of my employer: we have a machine break down on us. Do we:

a) Repair it
b) Buy a new one
c) Arrange a one-week long, off-site team meeting in the Alps to discuss the future direction of the company by bonding and meeting 'special challenges' (i..e abseiling and rock-climbing) together.

Seems like c) was the right answer all along :D Go figure.

[Sualdam]

.
Quite right!

The problem isn't huge, but EVERYONE can be guilty of it to a small extent. (And, of course, don't forget that what isn't huge to you might be titanic to others).

How many times has someone asked a question that's either been asked a zillion times before and/or at least once today already?

And how many times has someone answered tersely or just pasted a link to another reply? Or just ignored it altogether?

All anyyone has to do is just add a few extra words to the reply and lose the 'tch! Not again' attitude as they reply.

That's all :)

[Steven Glover]

Ok just my 2 cents:

I work at a location Monday - Friday that happens to be near a Subway (Sub Shop) I go in their probably twice a week for lunch. When I first started going I would ordaer my sub and pay for it. after a couple of months of casual chit chat with the gentleman that would take my money he started yelling hi to me everytime I would come in. Fast forward another month and he started yelling "Hey Mr. Stevens!". Today he yells "Hey Mr. Stevens! You want the usual?" Upon my answering yes he starts making my sub and I no longer even have to tell him what I want on it.

My point is that yes it can appear we have a clique, but if you jump in and reply to a few threads or even start a couple yourself you will find you quickly become a member of that periceved clique.


On a side not I used to whenever I logged in send a PM to the most recently joined member welcoming them to the forum. Did everyone that joined get a message from me? No but out af all of them that did I never once recieved a reply to my welcoming message. I finally chalked it up to maybe it appeared I was leading into some spam technique and gave up sending those welcoming messages. I could have quickly and easily decided that the new members I sent those messages to were just jerks. Instead I choose to think that they had good reasons for not responding.

I try to keep my glass half full all the time. I'm rarely thirsty anymore.

[minstrel]

Seeing the tactics used I assumed that we would get an increase in spam, true to form, we did. Today I suspect someone (Thea Garrett SERegister) observing this forum Backdoored My Mail Program to let me know that they could help my wifes business.

...

This is a log of recent experience, not be taken as a slam. I knew what I was in for but many don’t have a clue. Please keep that in mind.
Hello, gone:

Please see my reply to your other post here (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=56333#56333). I don't know who "Thea Garrett SERegister" is but as I noted in my reply the dates in your log would indicate that WebProWorld can't be the source of your intrusions. The software used for the WPW forums, phpBB, is a common one used on many different forums - if you are being hacked, it would seem it must be coming from somewhere else.

[Sualdam]

My point is that yes it can appear we have a clique, but if you jump in and reply to a few threads or even start a couple yourself you will find you quickly become a member of that periceved clique.

In an ideal world, Steven, yes.

But in reality, if you have a clique you will end up with opposing cliques. Again, it is human nature.

All anyone is saying is be aware of the potential for cliquishness to have a negative effect. In fact, it is hard to find any positive connotation for the word 'clique' in our context, so surely we should not be defending them?

We just need to manage them.

(As a side note, I would point out that cliquishness has been a major cause of the downfall of many forums I've been involved with. People can defend it, of course, but its effects can be very serious if it is allowed to go unchecked).

[Steven Glover]

I wrote


you quickly become a member of that periceved clique.

I do not believe we have a clique I said I think we have a percieved clique.

Although unfortanatly in many cases perception is reality.

[Steven Glover]

Actually I'm just going to get it off my chest.

When I first started coming here people could not have been more helpful. In fact of all the forums I belong to this is the most helpful bunch of people I have come across and frankly I am embarrassed for these people that all the kind hearted helpfulness that these people contribute on dare I say an hourly basis is being called into question. I have worked with companies that have paid for support that is much less helpful than the support provided here for FREE! Lets take into account that these people donate their time in an industry where the definition of "spare time" has been nearly forgotten.


Just a positive word!

[usabilitymedic]

I am a newbie and thought you might want my POV.

I read the posts as often as I can and always find good info here. BTW, thanks.

At times I am compelled to ask for clarification or help but am hesitant. I have opted to wait until I am really delving into a topic and need serious help (not just enlightenment) before I will waste your time with what might be annoying questions.

However, the overall feeling that comes across from most of you is that you welcome questions and are willing to help. As long as that continues to come across, I think it's OK to limit or abbreviate the info you provide.

As long as a newbite feels comfortable asking for follow up, you've minimized the need for explanation when it's not necessary but provided the option for it if it's needed.

Keep up the good work folks.

P.S. This is my first post so if I did something wrong...my apologies.

[minstrel]

I am a newbie and thought you might want my POV... This is my first post so if I did something wrong...my apologies.
Hi, usabilitymedic:

Thank you for posting and for your thoughts about WebProWorld. And no, you certainly didn't do anything wrong... :-)

[janeth]

I agree with you 100% Steven and I do not think we have had one new member say that he felt that way.

Even Greeneagle said that was not what he was trying to say either.

Greeneagle said that he thought there should be away to define some of the words we use everyday that some people would not understand.

Then there was the part about needing to greet new members and I think two people have brought up that there is a clique and both them are older members.

Not one new member has said anything about this problem.

[Sualdam]

Although unfortanatly in many cases perception is reality.
That's a statement of fact!

I know this is getting off-topic, but reality is how people perceive it, surely? If we poo-poo it then we're into controlling thoughts, aren't we?

So if people perceive that there's a clique then surely there is?

As I've said, it isn't a big problem, but it IS one that needs putting on a backburner in case it should become a bigger problem later. And it COULD.

As for your other post, you would fall into the 'one of the nicest people I've ever met' category. But again, the reality is that the world isn't made up entirely of people like that. So if you can't see a problem it doesn't necessarily follow either a) that no one else does or b) that there isn't one (however small and insignificant at the moment).

In actual fact, your 'getting it off your chest' remark inadvertently, I'm sure, implies that those who feel differently are wrong.

I say it again: it is a small matter, but one that needs ackowledging and watching lest it become a serious problem. There HAVE been issues on these forums and the way they've panned out HAVEN'T always necessarily been for the best.

Once more: it is a SMALL matter, but it exists.

One manifestation of it I've seen in a couple of popular threads (especially in the Break Room) over the last 6 months is that 'clique members' will sometimes only reply to each other and partially ignore new members. This comes across as obscure 'off-topic' digressions that only those in the know would understand.

Fine. You can't see that. But I can. And since both our opinions are valid, the reality must be somewhere in the middle - unless I'm totally wrong, of course ;)

:)

[janeth]

Hi usabilitymedic

Thanks so much for your post and I think the only way to find out the truth would be for all the people that do not post or are new to the forum to post there thoughts.

SO since you all are the ones we are talking about I would love to here from everyone that is either new or never post or has less then say 300 post.

What makes someone not want to post?

Is there anything we do that keeps you from posting?

Is there anything we can do to get you to start posting?

[gone]

Hello, gone:

Please see my reply to your other post here. I don't know who "Thea Garrett SERegister" is but as I noted in my reply the dates in your log would indicate that WebProWorld can't be the source of your intrusions. The software used for the WPW forums, phpBB, is a common one used on many different forums - if you are being hacked, it would seem it must be coming from somewhere else.
_________________
David J. Baxter
Ottawa, Canada
PsychYLinks
http://www.psychlinks.ca
Evil Homer sleep now...

Thanks for your reply minstrel, the log is but an accounting of a few days, the phpBB vulnerabilities I posted elsewhere are the problems “phpBB software” has had since 2001(thus the hijacked email thread) The website I posted for review was brand new, as was the email address, exclusive to this forum.
The mailback address on the website was different, so the email I received was from a harvester of your secure logs, someone with access to the logs, or a psychic who knew I just uploaded a new site for my wife and conjured up the email address. I didn’t make any accusations I just posted my experience here as a 3 day old newbie and pulled my data until I sorted out the problem. I will bring the rest of this to the forum you have suggested (http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=56333#56333). Thank you for your time.

[minstrel]

Thanks for clarifying, gone. Brittany and the tech guys at WebProWorld are aware of your concerns now and I'll follow up when I get a chance in the other thread.

It is an annoyance, to be sure - It's hard to avoid spam any time you post your URL or email address publicly but at least here your email address isn't openly displayed (unless you do it intentionally yourself).

[red]

Janeth said:
"What makes someone not want to post?

Is there anything we do that keeps you from posting?

Is there anything we can do to get you to start posting?"

Obviously I can only speak for myself. One thing (The ONLY thing) that turns me off completely and keeps me off the boards on occassion is that (some of) the members would rather die than admit that they are wrong or try to see something from anothers vantage point or just agree to disagree...and move on.
I guess what I mean is we need to stop beating a dead horse. Let it be.

As I stated in a post last night:
I was raised that NO opinion was wrong...after all, it is only an opinion. How can it be wrong?
In all of my management courses I was taught to be very cautious and to always choose my words (verbal or written) very carefully because people perceive them very differently."

We are all unique individuals and all have a different view of the world. That is obvious in the way we conduct ourselves in the "real world" as well as on this forum. Naturally, opinions are going to go in thousands of different directions.
We just need to be a little kinder and not bite someones head off when we disagree with them.

For my part I will remember to greet new members with open arms, keep in mind that everyones opinion has value (whether I agree with it or not) and do site reviews and answer a new members questions whenever there is a spare moment.

Thanks for asking Janeth! (:

[janeth]

Thanks so much for answering Red.

I have already learned a lot form you and I'm one of those people that never like to be wrong and know that there are things about myself I need to change also.


Again thank you.

[Steven Glover]

I didn't mean for my last post to have such a tone. I apologize if I didn't come across the way I intended.

Of course I believe we are all open to change and indeed should be. Change in a positive forward manner is essential. If I came across as someone saying that things are as they are too bad. I did not mean too, My apologies.

[red]

I'd like to return the compliment Janeth. You have opened my eyes to several things I wouldn't have thought of on my own. I have changed some (bad) habits as a result (:
I may not have been posting as much as I had over the past month or so but I read everything here like the newspaper. I don't want to miss any good advice that the members here have to offer.
All the best to you in the New Year!

[red]

Steven,
You are definately one of the good guys!
Your post was not misconstrued.
Happy New Year to you and yours!
I for one hope you keep finding "spare time" to share your knowledge. (:

[janeth]

Yes Steven you know your one of the good guys and we all love you.

[Steven Glover]

Why thank you Red, and Janeth!

[ronniethedodger]

...of all the forums I belong to this is the most helpful bunch of people I have come across and frankly I am embarrassed for these people that all the kind hearted helpfulness that these people contribute on dare I say an hourly basis is being called into question.

Just a positive word!

So true.

Most forums that I have been to are run by the siteowners themselves. They interject their rules into those forums. Often...if you go against their style of thinking or oppose them on any opinion, you are quickly jumped on by the other members or banned. There seems to be a type of oppression at these other forums.

Here at WPW it is not like that at all. For the most part WPW itself does not get into any of the goings-on of the forum itself. Outside of planting a few seeds here and there to start a few topics and little fertilizer from time to time to help a topic grow....they pretty much sit back and let the members take charge and govern this place themselves.

That is the unique quality of WPW as I see it. Even with this clique-ness that everyone is talking about now....it is a healthy clique-ness in that it offers us truely an over-all unbiased view on virtually every topic or question that gets raised.

[Sualdam]

I didn't mean for my last post to have such a tone. I apologize if I didn't come across the way I intended.
No need to apologise (especially to me :)) - nothing to apologise for.

[Steven Glover]

I’m told you should apologize in general once in a while as a point. Being humble keeps you from outgrowing your britches, though my midsection has demonstrated no actual proof of that.

[hawkwind dave]

This topic is now 4 (yes, four!) pages long, and after much reading, I must state that since early december, When I started working in SEO and knowing very little about either SEO or computers, I have found the advice and information here invaluable. Honestly, I couldn't have done it without you! I cant thank you enough.
Also, hope you all have a wonderful new year as I'll be bending your ears throughout!

[ldyguique]

This might apply to "what" constitutes a good answer when posting.

When I first started in TechSupport for my ISP, it still had some very "downhome" beliefs. One of which was to supply "WOW Customer Service." While stats were always a factor (more calls/fewer minutes spent on a call,) there was a secondary element: try and fix the customer on the first call.

However, we would get (and still get) many calls that were in that huge gray area: "unsupported." How does one provide a WOW experience to someone who has an unsupported issue? It generally boiled down into two categories: a) partially support if it's feasible within 10 minutes and DISCLAIM it, "This is unsupported as we've not been formally trained on this; however, I think I know what your problem is and how to resolve it -- the next tech may not;" b) provide "some" answer that aids the customer on their search for help--aka a link, a needed 800 number for their OEM, or a suggested book. In otherwords, leave the questioner with more knowledge than they started with.

We still chuckle about the "oddball" calls, such as the guy who called in and wanted technical support for his Toro lawn mower. He was given the 800 number for support from the Toro website.

I've seen some questions that seem to fall in the "unsupported" arena on various forums in here in that the questioner wanted everything that someone else had paid dues for years in acquiring. They had obviously not done minimal websearching, bookbuying, etc., or they had simply expressed their need poorly. Sometimes, one doesn't even know which question is at the apex of the pyramid of knowledge. A link or two or a suggested manual wouldn't be out of line to get the person started on their search.

I still think that a WPW Article database for newbies would be helpful. However, it may have to wait until we have five people who agree on any given topic :) Or, it might be useful to move various older threads into a "locked" forum that dealt with this or that topic(s) fairly extensively, but is buried off window long ago. This is a VERY active website and good information that is quite current is easily out of sight within days.

[greeneagle]

Sorry, but there is one more "Ripe Nook" worth mentioning:

The unanswered posts at:

http://www.webproworld.com/search.php?search_id=unanswered

Thanks Everyone,
Ken

[ronniethedodger]

The unanswered posts at:

http://www.webproworld.com/search.php?search_id=unanswered


Dang Ken...that list goes back to June!
And there is 73 pages. Can't we just sweep
72 of em under the carpet! ;0)

[greeneagle]

"ronnie"
You said it better than I did, but it sure wouldn't hurt us to check these once in a while!.

Where is the Priest?

Ken

[greeneagle]

I don't believe there are any more Confessionals open - Not even for me!

Ken

[Unclefussy]

Search found 1835 matches for unanswered posts.

Most are introductions from newbies, many are not.

Does WPW welcome newbies? Not really.
Does WPW offer lots of good tips and advise? YES!
Do most of us have time to answer all posts? NO
Will this thread come to an end? GOOD Question..

I have tryed to keep with this one, but I don't have the time any more.
Someone said somewhere it take 20% more time to read a webpage then a paper page, well it takes me another 20% on top of that, very slow reader, many time have to read twice to grab it and understand.

That is why it is tough to go through some of the threads here for me, great topic starts then off topic and back, very frustrating.

So I hope we can leave the goofing off and fun in the break room, where it belongs, sure would help keep a topic on track.

End of my whine, I need to get back to trying to learn more so I can better my site.

With that said PLEASE
HAVE A SAFE New Years Eve.............;-)

Fussy

[minstrel]

The fact that there are unanswered posts should not lead to the conclusion that people aren't observant or are lazy or simply don't care. Unanswered posts, as is evidenced in that list, generally fall into three categories:

(1) they are posted in Site Review or Introductions: In the case of Site Review, the sheer number of posts there is so high that on a bad day your post can be buried on the second page within an hour or two, and on the third page an hour after that, so no-one sees it. I would suggest that if this happens to your site, bring it back to the top by posting a reply yourself re-requesting help - you might have better luck at a less busy time on the forum. The issue in Introductions has been discussed to death - people are evidently trying to get in and say Hi to people but there will always be unsanswered posts in both of these forums no matter what.

(2) A question is posed that no one has an answer for - often this is because the question is so general there isn't a short answer and people may be reluctant to start (for example, "Can anyone help me to learn HTML"? "How do I get a website up?") - my advice to people here is to try to ask some more specific questions and, as a corollary, look at the Index and find out the best place to post your question. I have redirected people to more appropriate topics but Moderators can't move posts unless the post is within one of the topics they moderate. A related issue is posts in Link Exchange or Freelance, where someone asks for a link and no-one has an approriate link to offer, or someone offers a service that no one needs at the moment - that's like putting an ad in the paper to sell something and no one answers because at that moment at least no one wants to buy it - again, I don't know that those will ever be eliminated.

(3) Posts that seem to be simple advertisements for someone's website but are phrased as, "Hi I'd like to introduce myself and my company". When it's obviously spam or mere self-promotion, it's deleted. But if the post seems a little questionable and bears no relation to a topic in one of the other forums (which happens perhaps more frequently than you might think), the post may be moved to Introductions or Freelance - when people read it there, they may also read as simple advertising and ignore it.

So, bottom line is yes we can try to be more vigilant and look for unanswered posts - I think everyone agrees to that and while we have tried in the past I see some people trying harder now. But there will always be unanswered posts - it's simple relaity - it's never going to be eliminated - let's accept that and move on.

[ronniethedodger]

The fact that there are unanswered posts should not lead to the conclusion that people aren't observant or are lazy or simply don't care...

... often this is because the question is so general there isn't a short answer and people may be reluctant to start (for example, "Can anyone help me to learn HTML"? "How do I get a website up?")

Those are not too bad. The questions from hell like "compound questions" or "multiple questions" that should be posted in different topic areas. It is not that I don't care...but hey where do you even begin to start?

For an extreme example "Hi I am so-and-so can you look at my site and tell me what I can do to get better results in the search engines. Am I doing something wrong, because I used a free service that analyzed it with...do you use them and which ones. Does anybody have a script to make menus that pop-up like they do at the that fishing site. Any suggestion will be appreciated. Have a nice day!". Then you find the post in two or three topics to boot.

The worst part of this is they do get answered -- somewhat. The answers and following posts get intertwined into this long spaghetti-like thread. I get confused, people get confused. To make it even more confusing, somehow the original poster is not confused....which confuses me.