Limit to Keywords?

[jaca]

Though I have been a web designer for a number of years, I am relatively new to SEO. My understanding was that it is not good to use the same word over and over again in key phrases. Is there a limit to the number to times one word should be used, or a percentage to the number of keywords/keyphrases in your meta tag?

Thanks for your help.

Jan

[awall19]

Meta tags currently carry very little weighting in current search engines.
There are no written rules for tags. Generally its not a good idea for the description tag to repeat any word more than a few times. It should read like general good structured sentences in english (or whatever your native tounge.)

With keyword tag you probably do not want the same word to appear twice in a row or more than about 3 times total. The keyword tag is only recognized officialy by inktomi and unofficially by teoma (of the 5 major crawler based search engines.) The keyword tag is not even used by many major SEOs.

On page copy, page title, and anchor text are important.

[minstrel]

With keyword tag you probably do not want the same word to appear twice in a row or more than about 3 times total.
That's not a bad rule of thumb for individual keywords - if you use keyphrases in which one of the words is repeated but in the context of a phrase (e.g., kitchen cleansers, bathroom cleansers, kitchen curtains, kitchen organizers...) that is not a simple repetition, this as far as I can tell does not count as the same word.

And, although it seems to be true that it is not given a great deal of weight by most major search engines, I would still recommend that you include a keywords meta tag - it won't hurt and it might help with some directories or search engines.

[jaca]

Thank you for the information.

My understanding, with the changes going on in Google, that keywords/keyphrases may play a role again.

To use it in your Title, Description, does the same hold true to only use it a few times?

Jan

[jaca]

Hi David,

Thank you for your response.

So are you saying that if you use, for example, "kitchen cabinet, kitchen floor, kitchen sink, kitchen ......" that repeating "kitchen" more than three times is ok as long as other words are associated with it?

Jan

[awall19]

There are tons of examples of how keywords in the keywords tag does not even matter. As far as repition goes, the new Google algorithm tends to like lower keyword density until you develope sufficient link popularity...

[jaca]

Hi Aaron,

I guess I am a tad confused because so many people, even in webproworld, talk about keywords and keyphrases and that people even pay for them, that I assume they had to be important. I just wanted to make sure the repitition was not too much.

When you say put it at the top, do you mean in Title and Description? Hope this doesn't sound "duh", just trying to do the best for my client.

Happy Holidays!

Jan

[minstrel]

So are you saying that if you use, for example, "kitchen cabinet, kitchen floor, kitchen sink, kitchen ......" that repeating "kitchen" more than three times is ok as long as other words are associated with it?
Yes. For example, my site contains information about various types of psychological problems or disorders or mental illnesses. To use an example I've quoted before, one of the pages is about anxiety disorders and the keywords tag for that page is as follows:

<META NAME="keywords"
CONTENT="anxiety, anxiety disorder, panic attack, panic disorder, phobia, agorophobia, social phobia, social anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, ptsd, stress">

A page on domestic violence:
<META NAME="keywords"
CONTENT="domestic violence, family violence, domestic asssault, wife abuse, spouse abuse, spousal assault, child abuse, sexual assault, anger management, control, physical abuse, emotional abuse">

And one on stress and stress management:
<META NAME="keywords"
CONTENT="stress, stress management, relaxation therapy, stress coping, stress control, anxiety, post-traumatic stress, ptsd, workplace stress, work stress, work-place stress, job stress, employment stress, burnout, burn-out">

(wow... looking at the keywords for some of my pages for the first time in a long time tells me that I should go through my site and make some revisions...)

[minstrel]

I guess I am a tad confused because so many people, even in webproworld, talk about keywords and keyphrases and that people even pay for them, that I assume they had to be important. I just wanted to make sure the repitition was not too much.
They are certainly not the most important factor but I think they still do have some relevance...


When you say put it at the top, do you mean in Title and Description? Hope this doesn't sound "duh", just trying to do the best for my client.
The "at the top" part in Aaron's posts are his "tagline" - it's in all of his posts and doesn't refer to this topic... :o)

However, it is worthwhile trying to put your title, description, and keywords meta tags (especially the tile tag) near the top of the HTML code - in particular, if you have a lot of scripting in your <HEAD> section, put the tags above that...

[jaca]

Hi David,

Your example from your site was incredibly helpful, thank you so much! I now need to go into my own site and take a look at my tags.

But I did notice that you did not repeat the same word over and over, it was more the same theme. My client wants to (basically) use the same word over and over but with a different word(s) in front or behind it. Does that make any difference?

Do you have suggestions for Title and Description in this context as well?

Happy Holidays from a fellow Canadian (in Vancouver with my sister in Ottawa as we speak :-)

Jan

[jaca]

Hi David,

Now I understand 'near the top'...sure makes me feel like I was having a "duh" moment, and I haven't even had any eggnog :-) Yes I do know to put the most important content/words, etc. at the top.

Thank you so much for clarifying. Hope you don't mind answering my previous post.

One good thing is I will be off the computer soon tonight so you won't have to keep responding to my questions.

Jan

[minstrel]

But I did notice that you did not repeat the same word over and over, it was more the same theme. My client wants to (basically) use the same word over and over but with a different word(s) in front or behind it. Does that make any difference?
I think it would depend on the specific page - my rule of thumb is to ask the question, "what words would people use in a search box that I would want to point to my site?". In fact, the "stress page" example may be close to what your client is requesting:


<META NAME="keywords"
CONTENT="stress, stress management, relaxation therapy, stress coping, stress control, anxiety, post-traumatic stress, ptsd, workplace stress, work stress, work-place stress, job stress, employment stress, burnout, burn-out">
...although it's true that I mix in some other terms as well - that may be a solution to keep your client happy.


Do you have suggestions for Title and Description in this context as well?
The title tag is a different beast altogether and that IS important for search engine placement. Try to make sure that it includes words/phrases that potential customers/clients are MOST likely to enter to find the site.

Again, from my home page/default page:
<TITLE>PsychLinks: Dr. David J. Baxter, Psychologist, Ottawa - Counselling, Psychotherapy, Assessment - Ottawa Psychologists &amp; Counsellors</TITLE>
<META name="description" content="ottawa psychologist, registered psychologist, psychology and self-help resources for assessment counselling and psychotherapy for children teens adults couples parents and families">

When I look at this, the first thought that comes to mind is, "Wow! I really need to go through my site again and check all my tags out", so I'm not trying to suggest that these are optimal - however, they have been sufficient to give me the top listings for most words/phrases regionally (which is what I'm targeting given the nature of my business) and you can get an idea from this example of how to use the tags to highlight search words and phrases...


Happy Holidays from a fellow Canadian (in Vancouver with my sister in Ottawa as we speak
:o) Merry Christmas from one in Ottawa now who at one time lived in Vancouver...

[ronniethedodger]

I have been reading some of the posts in this thread and would like to just interject something before it goes a little further.

I have not read anything in Jan's post mentioning which page she was asking about. For instance, is this the Home Page? Or is it a major sub-section of the site for kitchen stuff? Or is it focused on something like a page for kitchen flooring?

The reason I ask is if the client has other categories of services or products that deal with other rooms of the house such as bathrooms, bedrooms, etc. and we are talking about the Home Page...then overloading on "kitchen" is not a good thing because you need to promote the other areas of the house as well. There is a limited amount of space, and you need to convey that with these restraints put upon that space.

If it is the landing page for the kitchen area of his site, then that would be okay.

If it is a sub-section to the kitchen area like tile or flooring...then overloading on the other various parts of the kitchen is not relevant....and would be spammy.

So in that context, it would be important to know what page is being discussed and have a little more background on the clients overall site content. This would save us from arbitrarily saying "yeah it is okay to repeat kitchen over and over and over again" and really screwing up the works.

Also, keyword is getting tossed around in both the contexts of the keyword meta-tag and the keyword density of the text content of the page. I am noticing in Jan's posts that it seems to me that she may not be differentiating between the two.

[jaca]

Thank you so much David for all your information. What you have done with your key phrase(s) is very much what my client wants to do. I was concerned with the proplems with Google and their 'spam' bump (no they wouldn't like me saying that :-)

For the <Title> I thought that the first words were the most important but I see by your example that content is. I also see by your <Description> that how you want to be recognized should be first, so if it does not read right that is ok (yes?)

I truely appreciate your help, and if you ever get the chance I would appreciate it if you would look at my tags, at least on my home page, and tell me if I am heading in the right direction. As a designer, and 'novice' SEO, I am doing all the testing on my site.

Where in Vancouver did you live?

Jan

[ronniethedodger]

Dang..looks like Minstrel beat me to my post. He covered everything and some. Glad to see you are on your toes....whoooooo doggie ! ;0)

[minstrel]

I also see by your <Description> that how you want to be recognized should be first, so if it does not read right that is ok (yes?)
With my previous caveat that looking at these i see some things that I would do differently now, yes - the description isn't "great writing" or "good literature" - what defines it is "what will people be searching for?" and, since some search listings use the description in the listings, "what will encourage people to click on this link when Google (or whoever) displays it?


if you ever get the chance I would appreciate it if you would look at my tags, at least on my home page, and tell me if I am heading in the right direction. As a designer, and 'novice' SEO, I am doing all the testing on my site.
I'll try to do that...


Where in Vancouver did you live?
This is going back a few years now - I lived most of the first 10 years of my life in B.C., but most of that was farther north in Kitimat, Kemano,Prince Rupert, Terrace, etc. One house I remember in Vancouver was I think on Lulu Island, which seemed a bit in the country (??)... The other house, going by memory, seemed more in the city but suburban.

Another fairly clear and fond memory I have is of Stanley park...

[minstrel]

Dang..looks like Minstrel beat me to my post.
Speaking for myself and I know for many others, your input is always welcome and usually helpful, Ron... :o)

And for those who don't agree, hey! what do they know? :o)

And, no... I'm still not giving up the propeller beanie...

[ronniethedodger]

And, no... I'm still not giving up the propeller beanie...

Okay! But I got donuts..hehehehe.

[minstrel]

And, no... I'm still not giving up the propeller beanie...
Okay! But I got donuts..hehehehe.
Hmmmmm.... all right... what kinda deal are we talking here?

[jaca]

You two are great. Sorry I missed out on the goodies :-)

To answer your question Ron, I was specifically talking about the term "marketing". My client is a marketing coach and in the keywords she wants to use she uses the word 'marketing' in several different variations. It is for her main page. The example is "coach, coaching, marketing coach, marketing coaching, life coach, lifestyle coach, business coach, marketing, private practice marketing" it continues like that.

Happy Christmas Eve!

Jan

[ronniethedodger]

To answer your question Ron, I was specifically talking about the term "marketing". My client is a marketing coach and in the keywords she wants to use she uses the word 'marketing' in several different variations. It is for her main page. The example is "coach, coaching, marketing coach, marketing coaching, life coach, lifestyle coach, business coach, marketing, private practice marketing" it continues like that.


I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact, it looks pretty well written.

And what is a Marketing Coach?

marketing coach: (n) Suburban housewife who oversees the shopping at local market. Calls in plays from the checkstand to a marketing team usually consisting of husband, children and Aunt Agnes. Known to shout loudly across aisles such plays as "Come back here and exchange this Cream of Mushroom for Cream of Celery for me, will you dear?" and "Dang...I don't have a coupon for this...will you kindly put this back on the shelf for me Honey?"

[jaca]

Hahahahah Ron (or should that be hohoho :-)

In fact she is a Life and Marketing Coach, you know like how to deal with your life and market your business.

Glad to hear that those keywords are ok. I thought using the same word over and over again could be considered spam, but I guess as long as you use it with different words it's ok, of course as long as it is in the content?!

Happy Holidays and many thanks.

Jan