Do SEO Companies serve any useful purpose?

[banseos]

I think some of the major Search Engines are a mess right now. I, with absolute certainty, blame the SEO Companys 100% for the problems and challenges facing the Search Engine business.

What do you think about SEO Companies?

[fathom]

I think some of the major Search Engines are a mess right now. I, with absolute certainty, blame the SEO Companys 100% for the problems and challenges facing the Search Engine business.

What do you think about SEO Companies?

I know few major search engines (apart from Looksmart) that are having problems, and hear no search engine users complaining about them either.

Admittedly though most people when things aren't going right want to blame someone else.

[Cabbie]

Hi Guys

I think the SEO play a part in the reason for search engine change but the googles altavistas etc of this world would still be changing their alogs anyway just to keep everyone on their toes and to get rid of the spam. For example with google's new algo update, if everyone was annoyed with this change and then no one would use google, do you think they would keep the new algo. Trust me they would go back to previous algos.
What it boils down to is that everyone is their own SEO whether they use a company or themselves.
Everyone wants their site up at the top just some cant do it , some can do it and some are amazin at doing it. That is why the engines will always be changing. So I dont think we can all blame the SEo companies for this - but they do seem like a good choice.

Merry Xmas everyone!

[ronniethedodger]

What do you think about SEO Companies?

I do not deal with them, so I would not have an opinion one way or the either. Nor do I really keep up on the daily goings-on in that area...so again I have no opinion.

What I can say is that they are useful to serve as an example of what or what not to do. I read here and there about how they are to blame for our lot in the Internet life. Whether that is really true or not, then I say learn from it if it is -- keep on keeping on.


What it boils down to is that everyone is their own SEO whether they use a company or themselves.

That is deep (and so very true)...I like it !!!

[minstrel]

Do SEO Companies serve any useful purpose?
Useful to whom?

I don't like RAP "music" but one of my sons does - so RAP is "useful" to him but not to me.

I don't need a wheelchair (so far) so wheelchair companies don't serve a useful purpose to me (so far) but I don't think anyone would want to argue that they don't serve a useful purpose to some people.

My brother would never hire anyone to do renovations on his house or plow his driveway in the winter, but I suck at carpentry and I hate shoveling snow so people who provide those services are very useful to me.

[ronniethedodger]

I suck at carpentry and I hate shoveling snow so people who provide those services are very useful to me.

I suck at carpentry too !!! It is a very bad profession to be all-thumbs in.

But, I have been known to suck snow !!! %-(

[excell]

It seems there is an assumption that SEO is associated with SE SPAM?

I would not lump all SEO's under the same banner. Methodologies range from pure optimisation of the web site and positioning within the web (making it the best it can be and clearly communicating with the intended audience) - this type I consider actually *help* the SEs and the searchers...through to methods that fall well outside of any guidelines and are clearly intended to trick and fool not only the SEs but also the searchers.

So to answer the question, one would have to know what you mean by SEO?

[Cabbie]

excell is right.

but if the search engines got their finger out of their butt and started banning sites that have in their title e.g for example "scotland business - business in scotland" when said title is clearly spam. Then the real SEO's would not stoop to such lenghts. So SEO's would not get a bad name.

I dont relate SEO with spam anyway but if a SEO's have to get their clients site to come up agaist their clients compeditor then they would not be tempted to use such methods as they know they would be banned from google etc...

The problem is sometimes a compeditors will use other SEO's that design their website which is clearly using spaming Techniques but these people dont get their sites banned. so it can be quite tempting to join them.
As I said before we are all our own SEO's so it's up to us all to stay within the search engine law.
I just wish the search engines who keep their word by banning spam websites.
If they did then I would definetly say the SEO serve their purpose

Here edith the lesson.
Rememeber the taxi driver always knows best.

Cabbie from Glasgow in Scotland!

[ronniethedodger]

but if the search engines got their finger out of their butt and started banning sites that have in their title e.g for example "scotland business - business in scotland" when said title is clearly spam. Then the real SEO's would not stoop to such lenghts. So SEO's would not get a bad name.


That is a little harsh. For one...I HAVE to resort to a form of this myself. Or create a whole seperate set of pages to accomodate it.

In my situation it is the search engine that forces me to do it (no name here ... hehehe)

I have a case where in the title I use the word "Burts" plus the rest of the actual name. If you go to this search engine and do a search for Burts, it comes back and asks you "Did you mean Burt's".

Clicking on the "Did you mean..." link produces drastically different results and I am sunk.

So in order to get around this...I use both Burts and Burt's in my titles --- would you consider this to be spamming in this case ???

Sometimes I think there are different levels of spamming. Some are more blatant than others, and it boils down to what the intent is of the writers. In my case I think I have a legitimate case to use both in the Title.

This type of spamming (if you choose to call it that) is necessary. At the other end of the spectrum is the really nasty, lowlife, scumbag sites that use deceptive techniques such as javascript to write redirection code into the document or DIV positioning tags to position one-hundred text links at -100, -100 outside of the browser window.

You asked in a previous post "So to answer the question, one would have to know what you mean by SEO?"

I now ask, what do you consider to be spam? Are there different levels of spam? Can some spam be interpreted as non-spam, and vice-versa?

PS -- I am beginning to like this thread so much that it prompted me to change my Signature line. ;-)

[Cabbie]

Ronniethedodger
Let's not get away from the question "are SEO's any good" which I say they have their purpose!

I can see this post having many branches that shoot from the main tree.

My attitude is.... I suppose I can be considered an SEO - even though I'm a taxi driver who designed his own website from his business.
My main Taxi site has about 8000 to 14,000 search terms to find it every month.
I have designed websites for clients and optimized them. I have optimized websites designed by other people so yes I'm an SEO - freelance.

I can understand your thinking about Burts & Burt's.
I don't see this as a form of spam.
Example if your into "hill walking" and especially scotland, the there is a famous place called arthur's seat - which is in Edinburgh but people also know it as arthus seat so there you go two important terms that brings up different searches.
Now for me I have designed a website for a friend (free of charge) which is about his experiences of "hill walking in scotland". He has just finished "arthur's seat" of which I have made a page. Now obviously I will have to make a page stating "hill walking arthur's seat" & "hill walking arthurs seat". I will do this but they will be 2 separate pages about the same thing but changed search term but one page will mainly be about the accommodation in the area. As I see it, my mate does not make any money from this site he just wants people to know about it - so he has nothing to gain financially. If people wanted to know about "arthurs seat", they would definetly want to know about both his pages even though they would only type one search term to find it.
I will do this and I dont see this as spam.

ronniethedodger you said

At the other end of the spectrum is the really nasty, lowlife, scumbag sites that use deceptive techniques such as javascript to write redirection code into the document or DIV positioning tags to position one-hundred text links at -100, -100 outside of the browser window.


They are the ones who should be banned.

There are different levels os SEO spam but "scotland business - business in scotland" is in my eyes "trying to get one over you" spam.
Burts and burt's is not spam but I would prefer each term was in a different relevant page.

I could go on and on about this with different examples but I'm a webpro neewbie so my fingers are a bit sore.

merry xmas everyone

[ronniethedodger]

Let's not get away from the question "are SEO's any good" which I say they have their purpose!

There are different levels os SEO spam but "scotland business - business in scotland" is in my eyes "trying to get one over you" spam.

Burts and burt's is not spam but I would prefer each term was in a different relevant page.



If part of the definition of what a bad SEO is considered, or perceived, to be is based on spamming...then we would need to clarify what the definition of spam is in the first place.

I think the use of "scotland business - business in scotland" titling is not spamming at all. Just as doubling up the Burt/Burt's is not.

Your suggestion of creating pages with duplicate content and changing the titles and keywords to match the target phrases, in my opinion, is spamming.

But I also believe that there are gray-areas (like above) and it all boils down to perception; what is the intent of the alleged spam in the first place.

If it is designed to deceive the searcher in any way, then it is spam. In the above examples, I do not see any deception involved to the searcher. Although in the duplicate page alternative, it could be constrewed by the SE as deception...but that is still a very gray area.

SEO's who use varying degrees of spam, therefore can be guaged in varying levels of "badness". From one's who toe the line and avoid any inference of spam (squeeky clean), to the one's who push the envelope, and the one's who are outright scumbags (the really true bad apples in the bottom of the barrel).

[Cabbie]

ronniethedodger
This is where we will beg to differ.
burts and burt's in my eyes is not spam but I can see why some search egines would ban it. So for the SEO who say to potential clients that they can get their site up there. There is pitfalls all over the place for the SEO.

ronniethedodger
If in your statement that you say

I think the use of "scotland business - business in scotland" titling is not spamming at all. Just as doubling up the Burt/Burt's is not..

In my eyes this is spam (clear spam). Why because the same word is used in the title twice. This is a no no.
You also say

Your suggestion of creating pages with duplicate content and changing the titles and keywords to match the target phrases, in my opinion, is spamming.
I do not mean duplicate content with different titles. different titles for a search term but with different content that would progress from the other page.

Look at it this way if I was interested in 'glasgow bed & breakfast' and I didnt come across a particular website cause the title had 'glasgow accommodation bed & breakfast' and said site was exactly what I was looking but was listed number 150 out of 90,000 in an engine then I would be Seriously annoyed.
But if the same site had pages for 'glasgow accommodation' and then a page on 'glasgow bed & breakfast' but the 'glasgow accommodation page' listed sites that linked to it - hotels B&B, inns etc and then the 'glasgow bed & breakfast page was more specific about B&B details listing the same B&B from the accommodation page but also listing more details of other B&B.
The same site would be aiming for 'glasgow accommodation' & also aiming for 'glasgow bed & breakfast' with more precise details in one page but the site would not come up if it had glasgow accommodation bed & breakfast in its title. Then are you saying said site would be spam?

This would be confusing for the SEO's, never mind me and I promote scottish tourism, especially if that have not optimized for the tourism sector.

I do not spam, never have, nor ever will.
I hate spammer with coloured text the same as background etc... These are the sites that should be banned.

Feel better now.
Don't want to be an SEO anymore though!

[ronniethedodger]

I will concede to your example of "accomodations" and "bed & breakfasts" as having totally different meanings and might be spamming.

But the "scotland business - business in scotland" is splitting hairs a little don't you think? I mean when you get down to it...aren't they saying the same thing?

I use the word "bees" twice the titles on my burts pages. One page in particular in that area has "bees" twice and the word "bee" in additon.

Let's just agree that this is one of those gray area spam techniques...very low on (really low) on our new Badness Spam Scale. On a scale of 1-10 in bad spam....I give it a 0.5 Agreed? ;-)

So what do you think of my new Signature ???? I need to know...got to take that off of there real soon. People are starting to ask me about it...hehehehe.

[fathom]

There are good and bad techiques that anyone can use, there are ways to fool search engines (admittedly for only a short period of time).

That last part is the most important part.

A SEO (or any website owner with a little understanding) can manipulate Google and get away with it. This isn't rocket science.

Technique isn't the problem - vulnerabilities is, and often this is used as a competitive advantage.

There is nothing wrong with having a competitive advantage - but if you, yourself truly do not understand all the specifics of any particular competitive advantage - that advantage can quickly become your own disadvantage.

A good SEO "learns" and learns all the time - the only bads ones are those that only "read" about technique and never attempt to understand the vulnerability - thus often don't offer any real competitive advantage and have no clue when to stop or change techniques, or what is a good techique and what is useless.

[ronniethedodger]

Hey Fathom -- the English language is tough enough.

Here we have been talking about "bad" as meaning wicked, unscrupulous (sp?). Now you come in and portray it as meaning "stupid" !!! ;0)

But you know...a good SEO would see that the word bad has different meanings; he has the understanding of how such a simple word can have profound effects in usage and interpretation.

[fathom]

I personally don't like concentrating on anything that is "bad" in the industry - as it gives "bad light" to even all the good.

I come across so many people that only hear the negative - and it's like talking to a brick wall.

[ronniethedodger]

I am in agreement with you on that.

It is like the people who watch just one news show, and from a half-hours viewing they believe that is the way things are...period.

[touristips]

What do you think about SEO Companies?

To be honest most SEO have puffed up clients by saying get top 10 results
guaranteed.

Sounds great!!

Then I think what to they know that I don't.
Nothing if you read guidelines and do the research.

Looking at current artificial results they don't help visitors find the most relevant
results as a result of alo manipulation.

Just a rubber stamp template since they can use what works for one focus or another till search engine redigest their spam.

If you don't have the time or motivation to make your site succeed
paying a SEO will only last as long as payments can be processed.


Do SEO Companies serve any useful purpose?
Yes you can contact several as a prospective client ala ronnie on Ace and hear the pitch.

I bet you will find similarities or modis operendi.

Ask them for other satisfied clients sites and build a pattern.

[ronniethedodger]

Do SEO Companies serve any useful purpose?
Yes you can contact several as a prospective client ala ronnie on Ace and hear the pitch.


I wonder what happened to my buddy Ace? ;0)

[touristips]

Probably running into another ronoid in another forum offering freebies.
Merry Christmas
you get my yahoo backdoor from minstrel??

[ronniethedodger]

you get my yahoo backdoor from minstrel??

Nope...was I supposed to? Since he stole my beanie, we don't talk much. ;0)

Actually no he has not. What is that all about?

Merry Christmas to you too.

[minstrel]

Check your private messages, Ron.

[ronniethedodger]

Check your private messages, Ron.

This canine concedes that it is not fruitless to attempt to indoctrinate a superannuated canine with innovative maneuvers. Boy, my lackluster mental alertness is really presenting itself. =(doh)

After reviewing the new (and pleasantly exciting) aforementioned discovery...I regret that I may be pre-disposed for an extended length of time. :0)

[greeneagle]

cabbie wrote:
"I can understand your thinking about Burts & Burt's.
I don't see this as a form of spam."

If you do a search on GOOGLE for "MSNsearch", this comes up on the second page, (yesterday it was on the first page):

natural-msnsearch diet pills
... fat msnsearch diet pills. ... $14. 95 Value) This 39 msnsearch diet pills
report is one 'll make C. October 8, msnsearch diet pills The EZ ! ...
www.dietpills-weightloss.com/msnsearch-diet-pills-01-01.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
___________

The second revelation?

Why did it change pages today and drop down? - Is GOOGLE tweaking some more?
___________

Back on direct topic - Most SEO companies that proclaim that they can list you next to God have a 0-PR, at least the one's I have visited.

Ken

[sonnie]

Hmm.

I guess I have to go back to what I've been seeing for quite a while. People want to know how to make numero uno, but where do you go to accomplish this? I'm still not aware of any SEO companies with employees having a degree in SEO. If someone knows of a educational facility anywhere offering this, I would like to know. Many of us optimize our own sites. Those companies offering "paid" optimization...well I would not put myself that far out on a limb. How could you guarantee a customer that their site would be positioned within the top whatever. Too many factors are involved. Each site is unique and must be dealt with as such.

I'm not sure, but I think it was Leisa that said it was a game, and you have to keep playing it.

Thanks

[fathom]

There are no SEO degrees first and foremost because the World Wide Web and search engines are still quite young (not even ten years) and as with all new industries the industry itself must mature before formal education is adopted.

If I had to suggest a close approximation a marketing degree (Bcomm) would be the best route and then some form of web design specialty courses - and then follow the discussion forums to get the latest appreciation.

You could also head in from Computer Science which would give you a better appreciation of the technology - but just the same "just technology" isn't what SEO is about.


...well I would not put myself that far out on a limb. How could you guarantee a customer that their site would be positioned within the top whatever. Too many factors are involved. Each site is unique and must be dealt with as such.

This goes back to my first point "new" tend to reflect cutting-edge and often great risk - risk takers are also very often - trend-setters and industry leaders - they take the chances and with big payoffs (when they work) - they don't necessarily need a guarantee that "things will always turn in their favor - just that you guarantee you will work to give them their best shot.

The Wright brothers didn't guarantee your safety - they just said you could fly... but today flying is still the safest way to travel! ;-)

It is a bit of a paradox - I guess that's why I'm fairly good at it.... and I have never offered any guarantees what-so-ever.

[excell]

Track record, results and happy clients also go a long way when assessing services.

[ronniethedodger]

It is a bit of a paradox - I guess that's why I'm fairly good at it.... and I have never offered any guarantees what-so-ever.

Just a rhetorical question then.

Does this mean that you will guarantee that you won't make any guarantees in the future?


This goes back to my first point "new" tend to reflect cutting-edge and often great risk - risk takers are also very often - trend-setters and industry leaders - they take the chances and with big payoffs (when they work) - they don't necessarily need a guarantee that "things will always turn in their favor - just that you guarantee you will work to give them their best shot.

Just like brokers that deal in mutuals. Their guarantee is not that you will make a ton of money overnight, but that you will keep growing steadily at a comfortable rate over many years. They do so by constantly monitoring trends and moving YOUR money around in different markets or funds.


Track record, results and happy clients also go a long way when assessing services.

That is a part of it. I think you need to ask yourself the question "What do they do for you after they render those Services?".

If any SEO has a proven track record of getting all of their many satisfied Customers top results, but two months down the line those same results take a nose-dive...what then?

The only guarantee in SEO is that there are no guarantees. What works today, may not work tomorrow.

[excell]

Are you trying to say that SEOs do not play an important role in the marketing mix? I think that if one is to take a wholistic approach to their Internet presence they would see that there is a blend of skills needed to be successful.

Not any one skill on it's own is the ultimate by itself. Look at design/asthetics/pretty, look at technology/functionality/multimedia, look at advertising/positioning, copywriting/marketing etc etc... any one without the other is not a whole picture. Everyone has different skills, some have magnificent blends of skills but to say that those that have particular knowledge, understanding or even intuitive flow of how to position well in the search engines is a little silly really... well IMO anyways :)

[ronniethedodger]

Are you trying to say that SEOs do not play an important role in the marketing mix? I think that if one is to take a wholistic approach to their Internet presence they would see that there is a blend of skills needed to be successful.


Did I say that? I wasn't aware that I did.

All I was saying was -- what do they do for you after their services are rendered? Nothing more.

[greeneagle]

excell,

Have you seen how many sites "Burt's Bees" has?, Truly a trophy in plethoria! -

Different; verbiage, design, etc.. ---- you can almost search for anything and happen upon "Burt's Bees" - all within current accepted limits, mostly!

a real study - I am learning!

Hat's off ---- Ronnie!

Ken

[excell]

Looks like a popular re-sale product :)Dup info (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&c2coff=1&q=burt%27s+%22well+known+rejuvenating+properties+o f+Rosehip+Seed+Oil%22)

I am sure the parent company is rolling in sales from the over 90,000 pages put in by folks around the globe.

I've never heard of the product myself, but I am sheltered :)

Very nice design on the parent website! I like that simplicity.

[ronniethedodger]

These guys have growth every year. They are expected (or I say were) to offer the company on the auction block. Companies like Proctor & Gamble and Wyeth (of Chapstick fame) were reported as interested. But those rumors have been milling around since late 2002, and nothing. Just as well, we like the market just the way it is right now.

Last year's projections (I am still waiting to find out what they are) was expected to be $43 million. A lot of the money goes back into their funding of preserving a big chunk of a forest in Maine. They employees are usually the single mothers, homeless and dirt poor. It is truely an amazing little company.

I am surprised you never heard of them. Heck I am in a small Arkansas town of about 1200 people, and we have this stuff. Of course, it is a little pricey behind the counter. But I have to admit, I probably would not of noticed it if I wasn't dealing with the stuff every day.

[ronniethedodger]

Looks like a popular re-sale product :)Dup info (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&c2coff=1&q=burt%27s+%22well+known+rejuvenating+properties+o f+Rosehip+Seed+Oil%22)


Dang...I am not in that list. Must of missed one.

[excell]

heheh.. I don't think it is really a great key phrase, so you probably aren't missing much! I'm in a smaller town in AU and not really dealing with many beauty products.. only neem in the past and that was a little more focused etc.

[ronniethedodger]

I don't want to think about Burt's right now. Had a snafu in communication with my sis-in-law about a certain item that is no longer available from this product line. In fact, we seemed to be the only place in the whole entire world that carried it. Apparantly we were the only ones purported to carry it for the last two or three weeks now.

Needless to say, we were out of them this whole time too...oops! She has been getting nasty calls all this time, and I just received mine today. ;0(

[Gary Golden]

I have no need for them, SEO's! As an independant of 24 years in the service business I do pretty much everything myself, plumbing, electric, heating and airconditioning, carpentry, web design, seo. To make it these days you need to do it all. I should say if you want to make it profitably, big companies can afford it because they are usually stock owned, but the self employed have to learn it to survive. I recieve e-mail's every day about achieving better ranking.
Personally I think my ranking is pretty good, you can find my sites by use of any number of hundreds of keywords many good and some not so good. Constant tweaking of pages and words along with reading new information out on search engines will keep you ahead of the game, I hope!
Also I feel these people are giving you basic information, to find out the good stuff takes work and honestly those who no it are not going to give it out. Same thing goes in any business, secrets are usually kept close to the heart!

[excell]

Always good to see a do it your selfer :) it's admirable...I do disagree that all SEOs keep secrets though, sometimes the simplicity of what they do share is misinterpreted as being just too plain simple and logical to be the real thing.

I whole heartedly agree that SEO is done with trial & error and blood, sweat & tears for the most part. It can be great fun and rewarding too :)

Off topic warning:
I clicked on your bottom link there Gary and I would like to make a comment of interest about your use of the character code for the black right arrow..►...in the title tag. I've been watching how Google was going to handle these - right at the moment it is totally not there in the SERPs.

(Yes, I checked the cache to make sure it was in the source).

On IE 5.5 it knocks the title out as well.. just displays the http://www. blah .com (No title.)

Google has gone through displaying this to trying to disallow it with a rendering of ????? and seems to have now got the total ignore nack down right.

[fathom]

hmmm... plumbing, electric, heating and airconditioning, carpentry... I do this all myself too!

Plumbers, electricians, heat & air repairmen, or carpenters... who needs them...

Unless of course you don't know how to do-it-yourself or don't have time?

There are 3 types of business people:

1. The entrepreneur - I'll just do it myself and save the expense.

2. The Traditionalist - Catalogs and newspaper only please - The Internet is a fad

3. I have a business to run and that business isn't SEO... I need someone I can trust to handle this.

While many target #1 & #2 I only invest time in #3.


Also I feel these people are giving you basic information, to find out the good stuff takes work and honestly those who no it are not going to give it out. Same thing goes in any business, secrets are usually kept close to the heart!

hmmm... when a person asks the right question - they tend to get the right response -- there are no secrets - advice is always free > here anyway! :-)

That buys credibility, integrity, and trust -- and that tends to develop clientele... like in your business.

[achronister]

I didn't have time to read call of this 'popular' topic, but my take:

Some SEO companies have screwed up relevant searches, as the engines are spending more and more time trying to battle them that practice unethical methods.

My theory is that SEO services will still play a major role in marketing, but will broaden to not just website optimization, into much more mainstream marketing that goes along with traditional marketing and advertising practices.

My 2 cents again!

Aaron

[Gary Golden]

Free advice is always appreciated, especially in today's economy. Additionally there are a lot of great SEO's out their and to those I commend their work, but unfortunately as with everything else their are some people out there that give other good resources a bad rap!

WebproWorld is a very good resource to get loads of information on many topics, so I will tip my hat to this service also!

Thanks again!

Gary Golden

[minstrel]

I agree, Fathom -
What I'd add about SEO experts though is in part it's a question of pereception: the profession has been tainted by people who call themselves SEO experts and don't know what they're doing. I've suggested elsewhere that it is probably time for the industry to look at licensing or ecrtification or at least some sort of professional organization along the lines of the Better Business Bureau - someone to say, "We have looked at this person or company and they meet our basic standards for SEO advice".

Right now, it's difficult to tell the good from the bad and that's why questions like, "why do we need these guys at all?" surface.

[Mel]

There are those that need SEO expertise and for those people SEO companies are useful, and there are those who don't need SEO expertise and for these SEo companies are not useful.

I expect that my customers will make a profit from my services and that should be the criteria in any business decision IMO.

I suspect that those who think that SEO is all about tricking the search engines have a lot to learn regarding good SEO practices.

[excell]

hehehe.. just glad I never tried to label myself as an SEO expert as such.. :) much easy to be just an everyday Internet Marketing expert known only to a niche group or select sector...

In all honesty folks I think that labelling is not healthy, really what is an SEO? What is an SEO expert? hey, it is that very labelling that is causing problems...

yes yes, I know what the varing shades of SEO are and the overlaps, but the average joe doesn't so it become null and void as nobody really knows what they are actually addressing unless on a case by case basis..

{errm - looks around, I think I am raving.. time to step off soap box :)}

[mythman]

I agree with "achronister:"


Some SEO companies have screwed up relevant searches, as the engines are spending more and more time trying to battle them that practice unethical methods.

My theory is that SEO services will still play a major role in marketing, but will broaden to not just website optimization, into much more mainstream marketing that goes along with traditional marketing and advertising practices.

Aaron'In a Perfect World,' (the World to which "tradition" was meant to lead) all websites would be simple extensions of the companies/individuals that they represent (just like all paintings for the "art tool"-producers/artists, just like all Broadway-shows for the producers/acters {noting where "achronister" is said to work}, just like all music for the recorders/musicians, et al.)

That way, the SE activities do not concern those who wish to market the activities of the companies/individuals—except as they change perception of the company/individual.

I'd love to come and join ya', but I can't goooo.... I owwwwwwwwwwwwwwe myyyyyyyy soooooooooooooooooooul to the com-pa-ny stoooooooooo'.