Oh shoot, you mean I actually have to think...

[Steven Glover]

Hey guys I am working on a site for myself which I will be putting up for you guys to see later.

Now here is the thing. I am working on some copy for the site and I wanted some opinions on how you guys think that "technology" has improved humankind.

For example:

Improved communication via the internet without as many preconceived prejudices.

Religious undertones are welcome as well. All will be understood once I demo the site.

[esiegel]

Interesting...
We actually asked this question at an 'intergenerational tea' for a youth group and some seniors at my temple not long ago. Actually we asked..."has technology helped or hurt society?"

The kids saw the benifits...
The seniors were mixed:
"E-mail is fantastic...I hear from my grown children more often"..."The art of writing is gone...rarely feel the joy of receiving a personal letter in the mail."

"Everything is so fast...and impersonal"
"Internet shopping is easy...but I miss walking down Main Street and knowing the shop owners. The mall is just not the samething (bigger business is an outgrowth of technology...maybe)"

With all of the wonderful advances...I'm not so sure that technology is really such a good thing...all the time.

[minstrel]

Oh shoot, you mean I actually have to think...
"That wasn't part of the deal! THAT WASN'T PART OF THE DEAL!!" - Homer Simpson

(Homer has quotes for everything!)

[rocky1]

I'm still thinking! Trying to narrow the field down to something shy of ten pages of writing!

[mikmik]

Steven Glover =
Now here is the thing. I am working on some copy for the site and I wanted some opinions on how you guys think that "technology" has improved humankind.

For example:

Improved communication via the internet without as many preconceived prejudices.
Improved? Je ne comprends pas!
Do you mean as a society, as in our wisdom or humanity?
Unlike rocky1 -
I'm still thinking! Trying to narrow the field down to something shy of ten pages of writing!
I don't see a whole lot of improvement. I can only think along the lines of increased availability of information, re: enviornment, poverty, human rights violations, oppression (racial, gender), and the like.
I definitely see opportunity for improvement, but as for humanity as a whole, I think it (technolgy, information) only serves so far to illustrate how basically materialistic and selfish we still are, in general.
In fairness, however, espescially with regards to a lot of the attitudes displayed around this forum - I see that the awareness of these issues is increasing, and therefore concern and, hopefully, constructive action is inspired.

[Steven Glover]

Well for instance this forum provides an outlet for communication that has allowed me personally to achieve new and emotionally beneficial relationships as well as knowledge that has furthered my ability at my job.

[TrafficProducer]

Without Technology we could not Talk via the Internet and I would not have seen your message....

Breakthroughs in Science. Links to cutting edge science related web sites.

http://www.future.wizkids.co.uk/index.html

Cutting edge science. Research and breakthroughs using State of the Art and discovery's of new sciences, physics, cosmology, the Universe, power sources, control units, memory devices, displays, portable computers, nanotechnology, organic, biological, medical, neurology, mobile, portable, WAP, G3, electronic, etc. Earth science, engineering and bandwidth solutions. Robotics, gadgets, chemical and telecommunications. Social, psychology and politics. A look at the future?

http://www.future.wizkids.co.uk/index.html

[mikmik]

We have much improved life expectancy due to medical knowledge and technology.
I wouldn't be here now if it weren't for treatment for anaphylactic shock!

[LauraB]

Whenever I watch TV and see those poor starving kids all over the world I can't help but cry. I mean, I'd love to be skinny like that, but not with all those flies and death and stuff.
- Mariah Carey

This is WAY off topic BUT! I just now noticed your Mariah quote... Good Gawd, she is such an American, no wonder the world hates us. Even if she said it in jest, it is terribly inappropriate!

Back on topic, I too would not be alive without a medical miracle (or was it the ceremony that the Navajo elder performed - I can never decide who gets the credit). And I wouldn't have a job. But, on the other hand my oldest daughter probably would not have moved 3,000 miles away if she had to walk rather than being handed a plane ticket!

We have not ended hunger on this planet and violence is as rampant now as it was when my Viking ancestors were roaming.

Some progress! she says sarcastically.[/i]

[TrafficProducer]

We have not ended hunger on this planet and violence is as rampant now as it was when my Viking ancestors were roaming.

Yes, Technology has advanced but socially we need to catch up...

If Moore's Law (ref http://www.intel.com/research/silicon/mooreslaw.htm) applied to society we'd all be a lot better off.

[LauraB]

I was unfamiliar with Moore's Law - thanks TrafficProducer, for sharing the link. And yes, were it applied to society we would be better off.

I really believe that if we take just one step each week, or even better each day to make ourselves kinder, more thoughtful or gentler to the earth it would, much in the same way that Moore's Law works for technology, make the world a better place.

Many years ago I had a friend that when walking from his office to the state capital (he was a lobbiest) or to lunch, a meeting wherever... he would pick up bits of styrofoam, discarded styrofoam cups, etc. and deposit them in the trash. He never broke stride in walking of conversation. One day I asked him why, why styrofoam. His reply was "if we each choose one thing, be it gum wrappers, cigarette butts or styrofoam, to clean up the world would be a far cleaner place".

I try.

[mikmik]

Sorry, Steve, still off topic:
TrafficProducer -
Yes, Technology has advanced but socially we need to catch up...

Laura Booth-
This is WAY off topic BUT! I just now noticed your Mariah quote... Good Gawd, she is such an American, no wonder the world hates us. Even if she said it in jest, it is terribly inappropriate!

Yes, it's a heavy political statement on my behalf (also a tribute to the'things that make you say 'huh?' thread)
It is meant as an indictment of all western nations, albeit some more that others.

At the same time, some progress is being made overall,
and I will start another thread early in the new year to discuss this. We really should be helping Steve! (I am the most, if not only guilty party here!)

Here's one: Microwave ovens have made the nutritional life of overworked moms (usually it's them!) and 'unmotivated' bachelor dudes quite a bit more convenient - I fall into the latter cat. :o)

[Steven Glover]

Actually no worries. I am enjoying the direction this thread is heading in. :)

[matauri]

Well for instance this forum provides an outlet for communication that has allowed me personally to achieve new and emotionally beneficial relationships as well as knowledge that has furthered my ability at my job.

Double edged sword Steven.

While avenues such as WPW for example, have decreased the amount of book reading & study time in relation to new technologies & image...it has tied me to the computer more than my bed. Why should I do as previously done, grab a book from the library & take it down the beach to read about what I am learning about. Now I can get a summary of all kinds of research etc on the forum, and now use this information in a practical sense...more time on computer, less time in bed, and now I read tabloids at the beach !! eeek...what is society coming to ! Me reading tabloids! ;-)



Cindy

[rocky1]

and now I read tabloids at the beach !! eeek...what is society coming to ! Me reading tabloids! ;-)

Far better reading them, than being read about in them! };^)


Technology has affected us in so many ways that it is incomprehensible really. The longer I sit back and think about the effects of technology, the longer my list gets. What used to take us days, weeks, sometimes months to accomplish, is done in a matter of minutes. No papers to shuffle back and forth in the mail, wait on someone on the other end, shuffle it back for missed info, back to the guy on the other end to wait two three more weeks, before he forwards it to someone else, who sends it where it's supposed to go, and they call to tell you that you filed the wrong form. Now days you fill out a form on line, if you miss a line, it won't let you enter it. As soon as it gets all filled out, it spits out copies on the other end to everyone that should have one, and one is likewise e-mailed you. It can look at the data you entered and give you a projection of the anticipated results, so you aren't sitting around wondering for days on end as well. And, the guy on the other end e-mails the next morning to tell you that you filed the wrong form.

The experience here in the forum as a result of technology, has truly been an eye opener as far as I'm concerned. Having had the opportunity to visit with people all over the world, I've learned that we really aren't so different. Our kids exhibit the same idio-synchrosies, at the same age, we all love Beer, a good joke, and our computers. Doesn't matter if we're just across the border in a neighboring country, or on an island half way around the world.

At the same time, I look at the flip side, and TrafficProducer is right, there are acertain things that have not been cured. No, we haven't cured hunger in the world, but we have increased awareness of it substantially, through technology, and we are at least attempting to make the world a better place to live. That's a step in the right direction, and all battles are won, one step at a time.

When I look at what we have now, recall the stories of what my Grandfather stated he had as a child, and think about what my grandchildren will have in years to come, it pleases me to see the advances made in technology. But, by the same respect I wish they too could experience the joys of simpler times, there's a lot to be said for nostalgia. Guess that's maybe why I spend all that time on the water fishing!

[mikmik]

Mat!
and now I read tabloids at the beach !!

I hope you do what I do, hide the 'reading material'
inside a copy of the "Wall Street Journal".

Rocky, you said :
When I look at what we have now, recall the stories of what my Grandfather stated he had as a child, and think about what my grandchildren will have in years to come, it pleases me to see the advances made in technology. But, by the same respect I wish they too could experience the joys of simpler times, there's a lot to be said for nostalgia. Guess that's maybe why I spend all that time on the water fishing!
I wonder, though. I see your point about simpler times, but I think our living arrangements and comfort level are much greater now. I think of how the past is portrayed on TV and movies, and I'll bet it was a lot rougher than we imagine, and for a larger percent of the people.

[webstudio1]

technology perhaps has improved mankind by introducing the possibility of a person to never feel alone or be alone, ever again.

[Steven Glover]

Rocky Said


When I look at what we have now, recall the stories of what my Grandfather stated he had as a child, and think about what my grandchildren will have in years to come, it pleases me to see the advances made in technology. But, by the same respect I wish they too could experience the joys of simpler times, there's a lot to be said for nostalgia. Guess that's maybe why I spend all that time on the water fishing!

Just curious when you go fishing do you ever use one of those fish finders? What kind of rod and reel do you use?

I think even the simpler things we do have been greatly influenced by technology.

Look at Golf Clubs do you know how much money is spent on designing better golf clubs with research heavily based in technology.


Off topic:

Rocky I must say that you guys that are really into fishing are really into fishing. My brother fishes just about everyday. He has some fancy rod and reel that cost him a little over 350.00 bucks. This thing is cool. Way cool. However I almost ad a heart attack when e told me the price. The last time I bought a fishing rod it came to around 20.00 bucks :)

[redcircle]

Here's one: Microwave ovens have made the nutritional life of overworked moms (usually it's them!) and 'unmotivated' bachelor dudes quite a bit more convenient - I fall into the latter cat. :o)

I'm a gormet microwave chef. Name something and I've cooked it in the microwave (haven't tried a turkey yet.)

[ronniethedodger]

Rocky Said


When I look at what we have now, recall the stories of what my Grandfather stated he had as a child, and think about what my grandchildren will have in years to come, it pleases me to see the advances made in technology. But, by the same respect I wish they too could experience the joys of simpler times, there's a lot to be said for nostalgia. Guess that's maybe why I spend all that time on the water fishing!

Look at Golf Clubs do you know how much money is spent on designing better golf clubs with research heavily based in technology.



It wasn't that long ago when Albert Einstein was quoted as saying that the greatest invention by man at that point in time was the "zipper". And, this came from somebody with an IQ which can be compared to a site with a PR10....the zipper.

If the zipper had not been invented, who knows where we all would be right now.

Seriously, a lot of today's technology as we have come to know it had started back in the beginning days of the manned space flight program. We got such neat things from that like IC circuits and transistors, velcro, Tang Orange drink, and door-to-door scam Moon Rock salesmen (not to be confused with the Pet Rock industry).

Outside of the latter salesmen part, I really do enjoy sitting in front of my transitorized computer with a mug of instant orange drink that is conveniently sitting in a cup holder that is velcroed to the side of my monitor. Man life is easy !!!

[esiegel]

a lot of today's technology as we have come to know it had started back in the beginning days of the manned space flight program. We got such neat things from that like IC circuits and transistors, velcro, Tang Orange drink, and door-to-door scam Moon Rock salesmen

add in...various ceramics, plastics (Mylar was the heat shield on the lunar module before it was a balloon), fabrics, tools, medications, and food preservation techniques...and on and on.

The greatest thing that ever happened to inovation was Kennedy setting a goal (land on the moon...) and more importantly a deadline (by the end of the decade). I'm thrilled that G.W. is about to do the same (back to the moon or mars...not sure which yet). His father tried...but said something like "we should send a man to mars as soon as we can..." The deadline is what forces innovation and 'hurdle solving' as far as I am concerned.

[LauraB]

esiegel wrote:
I'm thrilled that G.W. is about to do the same (back to the moon or mars...not sure which yet).

Now, GW going to Mars is a project I could get behind! I'd settle for the moon, I guess.....

[esiegel]

Now, GW going to Mars is a project I could get behind! I'd settle for the moon, I guess.....

OK here we go...supposed you'd rather have Hillary?
Now Hillary on the moon....hmmmm. (as long as she gets out of NY!)

[ldyguique]

Technology is the modern word for tools, something that humans have excelled at throughout time. Step-by-step, humans have constantly invented, modified, and created ever more tools that simplify tasks or make many tasks even possible. Humans and technology go together. To remove technology out of the human repertoire is to reduce us to the simplest of creatures with little or no control over the elements, food supply, disease, or even biology (expanded gene pool). I see little difference between the value to stone-age hunters inventing tools for hunting and curing vs modern humans and all of the modern tools of technololgy, whether it's food supply, clothing, medical advances, or computers. It's all part of the long continuum that has allowed a species to radically alter its environment, increase its lifespan, alter its social behavior, and so it goes.

It has been hypothesized that war has driven human invention and technology more than any other social creation mechanism. War has been responsible for creating tools which are then adapted into civilian usefulness, such as the various gear for horses: i.e., stirrup, horsecollar, and breast harness system were invented primarily for war-related endeavors by the Chinese a thousand years before the West borrowed these inventions in the Middle Ages, also for war. Eventually, these became farming improvements.

The modern Space Program, essentially a peacetime endeavor, had all of the power of government and industry behind it because the underlying impulse had some very strong war overtones, i.e., rockets, survellience, and "high ground" tactics. Many spinoff products have made their way into civilian life, many that far exceed the infamous Tang. A great site for exploring the Scientific and Technology of NASA is http://www.sti.nasa.gov/.

Perhaps, we haven't eliminated hunger and many of the ills that plague humankind; however, ". . .the world population has risen from 1.65 billion in 1900 to 6.08 billion in 2000 and average life expectancy has more than doubled since 1900 -- from 30 to 63 years." http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/pd062200f.html. Although, unless humans can learn to control many of the side-effects of population growth and its incumbant destruction of the environment, it will be quite possible that these statistics will turn and go the other way.

Violence remains with us as a species; however, hundreds of millions and, perhaps, even billions of people live out their lifespans untouched by violence other than viewed through the media. Even with this enormous population explosion during the 20th Century, there were huge population losses due to war, for example, WWII had an estimated death toll of 48,231,700 that doesn't include the Holocaust
http://www.warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm.

Whether one agrees or not with the Gulf War and the latest Iraqi War, the exceedingly low casualty count would have been unimaginable without technology--not only the technology to wage war, but the technology to rebuild water systems, bring in huge quantities of food and medical relief, and sufficient control to allow a reconstruction that might even succeed in under a decade with a substantially different social and governmental order. Civil wars are inherently brutal affairs with high death and destruction totals (remember the starving people of Biafra? or Cambodia?). An eyeopening site that details major conflicts, many of which were "internal affairs" is the "Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm," http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm -- it's amazing that humankind didn't manage to erradicate itself rather than actually grow in both population figures and lifespan.

This is also the same period of time that much of the Industrial world installed electricity, plumbing, telephone cables, and invented most of the technology that allows us to communicate instantly around the world and travel vast distances in a single day.

It's a marvel that human population actually grew nearly six times over AND nearly doubled its lifespan if we only focus on the megadeath numbers. Technology outweighed the human factor in the long run. More people were saved than lost due to technology--medical breakthroughs, increased farming yields, water projects, more elightened governments and social systems due to public scrutiny and global communications.

It's humans who wage war and develop technology to wage it more effectively and then spinoff that technology for beneficial purposes. Fortunately, the current thinking includes high tech and low casualty rates rather than actually using the "daisy cutters" and "nukes."

[ronniethedodger]

Violence remains with us as a species; however, hundreds of millions and, perhaps, even billions of people live out their lifespans untouched by violence other than viewed through the media. Even with this enormous population explosion during the 20th Century, there were huge population losses due to war, for example, WWII had an estimated death toll of 48,231,700 that doesn't include the Holocaust


In other words, technology has not solved the problem of man killing man ... it just means that we have become more efficient at it.

How does that bumper sticker go "Guns Don't Kill People..."

[wenwilder]

What cost do we pay for technological advances?

We create ways to make our lives simpler. Microwaves to cook food faster and machines to do our work for us. So we eat more and move less, jeapordizing our own health with the inactivity. Then new preservatives have to be created for the way we prepare meals and more diet pills are invented to help us lose weight because we've simplified our lives. Who knows what affects the preservatives will have on us in the long run and we've learned the hard way how dangerous diet pills can be.

We live longer thanks to medical break throughs, which is great, but the world population also increases putting a strain on natural resources that we're using to create the 'advanced technology' we're proud of and can't live without.

We're finding faster ways to make more money with less work and even less education, and we wonder why people are severely depressed and popping pills left and right.

We're in such a rush to see just how far technology can take us that we forget to ask if it is really somewhere we are prepared to go. We've become technologically advanced and humanity deficient. As much as I love technology, I'm not sure I like the price.

[paulhiles]

I find it very strange.. we can become members of a thriving online community.. revel in the exchange of ideas, share common grievances, commiserate with one another on the state of the world. But what happens out there in the real world? IRL? My Dad looks at me very askance when I enthuse about all the great characters here, and the hilarious posts that often appear in our very own Break Room.

My point is, that technology has provided the means for everyone to escape into their own little world or vacuum in cyberspace. Where are all the role models to teach social skills? How do folks introduce themselves (without spamming!). It seems to me that online activities can do as much to alienate and ghetto-ise people as they can bring people together. The difficulty is finding a balance, and making judgement calls according to your own set of values. Then the old conundrum pops up.. how are these values acquired in the first place? - is it through parents?, the TV? the Internet?

Technology can be an incredible tool to one person, and a mystery to another.. where the future lies God only knows, let's hope we can all be wise enough to realise that not everyone may quite reap the same benefits as ourselves.

Paul

[ldyguique]

Wen --

Each of us is responsible for at least some of the quality of our life(ves). An old truism still holds up: you get outta something what you put into it. We've heard this in many forms and it still applies. If one takes only the easy path of least resistance, or cheats, or puts in only enough effort to get by, the payoff is minimal. It's up to the person to find something important enough to strive for and stuggle to attain.

For example, you seem to be an avowed vegetarian. It's a personal choice for you that requires above and beyond effort in order to both live it and to be healthy. I'm sure that you've been told that it would be easier to join the mainstream. And, it would. However, even if you could set aside your beliefs, would it bring you the same quality of life? Would it make you happier?

I cannot answer for anyone else's habits or choices. I can only answer for my own. If I want to maintain personal integrity, an integrated whole, then, I must carefully balance all of my choices against my entire belief system. "This" particular easy path may make sense; however, it might very well deconstruct the whole into chaos.

Life is about learning and growing. Some put minimal effort into it and are generally in a state of chronic unhappiness--whining and carping and in a state of constant upheaval. Even when things don't go as planned or desired, one can usually gain some satisfaction for a "job well done."

Technology has no direct relationship to character issues. It's the individual who determines how much enjoyment and quality that they get out of their life(ves). Technology is simply a tool.

[wenwilder]

Geraldine,

Great post! :) And you're right. Like the saying goes: "There are no victims here, only those who choose to play the part."

The problem I have is that people (not all people mind you) do not take responsibility for their actions. They blame what is easiest to blame.

The business owner claims it's not their fault "because the customer bought it!" The customer claims it's the business owners fault "because they made it!" But ultimately it comes down to choices.

I made a choice years ago to not eat meat, one because I don't like the taste and two because I have an extremely soft heart when it comes to critters. I also made a choice to purchase as little as possible from stores. I make my own soaps, shampoos, conditioners, shaving lotions, dishsoap, etc. I keep my life pretty simple, and tomorrow, if the electricity would go out, I would miss the forum and the friends I've made around the world, but I wouldn't miss the microwave, frig, or stove.

I know how great technology is, I also know I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for technology. Technology is more than a simple tool, unfortunately for many, they could never live without it.

[rocky1]

Just curious when you go fishing do you ever use one of those fish finders? What kind of rod and reel do you use?

I think even the simpler things we do have been greatly influenced by technology.

Look at Golf Clubs do you know how much money is spent on designing better golf clubs with research heavily based in technology.


Off topic:

Rocky I must say that you guys that are really into fishing are really into fishing. My brother fishes just about everyday. He has some fancy rod and reel that cost him a little over 350.00 bucks. This thing is cool. Way cool. However I almost ad a heart attack when e told me the price. The last time I bought a fishing rod it came to around 20.00 bucks :)

Actually the first draft I prepared elaborated extensively on exactly that, but I figured it was probably not where you wanted to go with the thread Steven. Included therein was discussion of computerized electronic ignition and fuel injection on the outboard, both Remote Control and Auto Pilot operation of the Trolling Motor, (the latter of which might use either a laser signal like smart bomb technology, or multiple sonar transducers to paint a picture of the bottom and track a certain depth), the Depth Finders you mention, then there's Global Positioning Systems, Marine Band Radio, Weather Radio, and Cellular Communications, and there's even technology enhanced tackle!

Yes folks, you heard right, computerized fishing gadgets. There are numerous models of lures that emit light, or sound, or both to attract fish. Likewise, I have a couple of bobbers that you charge up with a transistor radio battery, and it has a blinking LED atop its stem for night fishing. Should you get a light biter and he pulls it down just a little and holds on... when the battery contact terminals short out in the water, it goes to a steady red light.

As for Rods, I can't say that I have any $350 Rods Steven, but I do have a few $200 rod and reel combinations, and had one $250 combination, until I broke the rod a couple of years ago. As for why I don't own any $350 rods, they're far lighter, comparatively stronger, and hands down way more sensitive than the rods of days gone by, but the spendier models as you refer too, often push the edge of the envelope, and they're frequently found to be less than durable, after they hit mass production. I've found I'm very comfortable with the cheaper grade rods I have, they perform extremely well, and take a bit more abuse!

But, it doesn't end there either. Turn of the last century, most line was made of the common twine fibers, cotton or hemp, neither of which stood up to water well, had to be stripped from the reel to dry after every trip, and you had to change your line about every third or fourth trip if you hoped to haul anything in. Now days we've got monofilament, fluorocarbon, micro-fiber braids, and micro-fiber fused lines. Each has its own little place in the world of fishing, and each has its own little sub-family of lines, geared to specific conditions.

However.... Getting back to Mik's comments, I'd dare say I've easily got three to five thousand dollars worth of rods, reels, tackle, etc. and that doesn't count the boat and its accessories in there, and the older I get, the more frequently you will find me parked under a canal bridge in a lawn chair, with a plain old hook and bobber, and a can full of worms! Getting back to the simpler ways I referred to Mik, simply because... As I age, I realize there is a certain joy in that method, that all the improvements, and technology can't compare too. I still use rods and reels, but they're usually border line junk I've picked up on auction or garage sales, plain old mono-filament line, a small bobber and jig, as basic as gets, in seeking the joys of catching a fish that isn't 3 inches long just for the sake of watching the bobber go down. There's a thrill in that seeing that bobber go under, in all of its simplicity, that is unparalleled by any other experience in fishing, or life for that matter. A simple joy.

Yet, in doing the tournament thing, even the basics can become a state of the art art, and all the technology comes into play, even in the simplest of forms. I fished slip-bobbers extensively, (in fact almost exclusively), for the first time in a Tournament on Devils Lake last year. However, given the fishing there is almost entirely in flooded trees, and losing a fish might cost you a trip to the pay window, I used 30 lb. test micro-filament lines, to prevent breaking off. Since fish often shy from these lines because they are extremely visible in the water, I fished with an 18 inch Fluorocarbon leader because it's compounds are far less visible at greater tensile strengths, than micro-fiber or even monofilament lines. The 14 lb. test Flourocarbon would have been seen comparatively as 6 - 8 pound mono. The 14lb. line, below the 30 lb., likewise allowed me to break the leader without losing my bobber and having to re-tie that part of the rig everytime I snagged! And, by tieing 50 or so leaders to the same length, before we started, everytime I retied, my slip bobber was set within an inch or so of the last line's setting. In that fashion I was back in the water twice as fast and lost half as much fishing time.

Sure, I know you're saying, but that's not technology, that's experience! And, I might be inclined to agree except I heard and read about these techniques on Television, and in magazines that are produced on computers, illustrated with pictures taken with digital cameras, and I even picked up a few of those tips on-line. There's no escaping it folks, technology is here to stay, we just have to each find our own little escape from it to retain our sanity, when necessary.

[matauri]

Aside from the work side of it, and the obvious convenience it provides, the online community side of the Internet is no different to having many many neighbours.

Because my comp is on pretty much 24/7, that doesnt mean I am on here 24/7. I even show as being online here a lot more often than I am actually sitting down at comp. I go about my normal life, work, family, recreation, life in general. If I walk past computer I will check email, or new posts on forum, or any other communities I have going at same time. If I have the time & will stop & chat or return an email while I have a cuppa, or make a post on forum. No different to when I am outside working in garden or walking the streets, when I pop in & visit with someone for a cuppa, or vise versa. I see no difference at all with online communities in comparison to my IRL community. (cept maybe I dont get tired fingers talkin to IRL neighbour) :-)

The net is what you make it, or what you allow it to be. I have friends all over world I have visited & they visit me. (cheap accomodation!!) We are normal people who happened to hook up in places we had common interests, so naturally we gravitated towards each other in friendship.

The net is no different to society, there are those that push the boundaries & abuse it. And there are those that dont. I met my husband on net 8yrs ago & I also have other friends from years ago who I still chat to.

I think one important question is.... what would you be doing right now if you hadn't connected to the Internet?

My answer..... same thing, just different job & different people :-)


Cindy

[carju1]

I make my own soaps, shampoos, conditioners, shaving lotions, dishsoap, etc. I keep my life pretty simple, and tomorrow.

OK who gets to the picture of Wen with a beard :)

Seriously, Technology is what you make of it and how you use it. Ok so it happens that I am in IT and use IT for my job but the social implications are also how you use them.
100 years ago our great grandparents sat around in the evenings talking and reading and their children lived close by and popped in daily.
70 years ago our grandparents sat around listening to the new technology wireless and most of their children popped in as they lived close by. Other evenings they went out to dances and the motion pictures.
30 years ago our parents sat around watching that new technology television or went out to socialise as by then most people had cars. However their children (i.e. us) had often moved away as part of the mobile economy.
Now we have computers and we sit around using this new technology and see the kids once or twice a yaer when they fly over.

Is it worse to sit down in the evening watching tv or to sit down with a few networked PC's and play diablo against you wife and children all on different pc's in the house (at least the pc games are interactive with each other as opposed to passive tv).

Our grandparents could 'pop next door' to see their kids, our parents used to phone to speak to there kids and I use the internet to speak to my elder kids who have left home.

My grandparent knew everyone who lived in the village and had to socialise with them as the only option. My parents went out in the car and socialised with their friends from work and other social clubs. I talk to people all over the world via the internet.

All 3 of the above are just progressions of the same basic functions, fun, family and friends all technology does is allow us to do the same things our ancestors did in a different way.

Julian

[Steven Glover]

Carju1 said


30 years ago our parents sat around watching that new technology television or went out to socialise as by then most people had cars. However their children (i.e. us) had often moved away as part of the mobile economy.
Now we have computers and we sit around using this new technology and see the kids once or twice a yaer when they fly over.

I think in some ways technology is taking us back to when we all popped in on one another. Think about it. As opposed to the 30 year model mentioned above we are now able to come home from our kids first baseball game and send via the internet streaming video of the little timmy's first fly ball catch to grandma and grandpa. I sent sonogram pictures to my folks of my first child the same day we went. It was so funny because the tech put the words "I look like a girl" and an arrow on the picture before she printed it out. How amazing is that. Now the new sonograms really show some detail.

[mikmik]

Paulhiles wrote :
Technology can be an incredible tool to one person, and a mystery to another.. where the future lies God only knows, let's hope we can all be wise enough to realise that not everyone may quite reap the same benefits as ourselves.

Yes, good point Paul.
I think that technology obviously affords us more 'rights' : the right to communicate 24/7 on computers, the right to live longer, the right to employ these powerful technologies. However, with rights come responsibilities.
Lets remember that the greater the gap between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots', the more angry become the neglected, and whether they are 'whiners' or have lack of character or what (I don't agree, but another time), they become violent eventually. They rob and or destroy to 'balance' against their percieved injustice.
The enviornment can only sustain so much exploitation before the very foundation of our ecosystem collapses, and then no amount of technology will be able to repair the damage and the earth stops being able to support life.
Let's not forget the responsibilities that go along with our luxuries, let's not continue our path of easy instant gratification, because our selfishness will destroy.

[pete61uk]

ldyguique wrote:

"Technology is the modern word for tools"

An excellent read.

Without going back to Darwin's "Origin of Species", or theories with regard to extra-terrestrial intervention, had there been no aptitude for technology and its application by our genetic ancestors this planet would most likely be ruled by "Bubbles" (you do remember that chimp?).

Like it or not, as “A” leads to “B”, to “C”, etc., as the physical laws of our universe are uncovered they will lead inexorably to discoveries many won’t want, will protest about (as, bless their cotton-socks, is their right), and will gladly martyr themselves on the cross of moral superiority in order to prevent the great un-washed (ourselves) getting them. That, or some corporation will buy it, patent it, and bury it to protect their market-share.

However, and this is only my opinion, of the greatest technological advances throughout history, those that have been of the most significance have been related to, or benefitted directly from, the driving need for ever faster communications:

Smoke signals; semaphore; Morse code; Jacquard punch cards; transistors, and so on.

As a concrete (bloodless) example, had Yuri Gagarin not been the first human to successfully orbit the earth would Kennedy have put Armstrong on the moon?

Because of that decision, it being the Cold War and national pride was at stake - “at that particular time in history” - it was essential that technology take a leap forward. This, to enable the ground control systems to communicate with Apollo fast enough to be of any use over the distances to be travelled. Without it the mission would probably have failed?

That instance of a perceived need has led us to where we are today with technologies and improvements in manufacturing processes having many spin-off applications the benefits of which we now enjoy.

Who knows where it will all end, I suspect the next leap will be if the on-going investigation of Mars leads to an effort to put mankind there. After all, had you been sent to Mars, would you really want an order for toilet roll to take 6 months or longer to get to mission control?

On the ground, in spite of the talent our species has for destruction, the greatest feat that the current communications technology can achieve is to expose ignorance in all its forms and encourage reasoned debate.

[LauraB]

On the ground, in spite of the talent our species has for destruction, the greatest feat that the current communications technology can achieve is to expose ignorance in all its forms and encourage reasoned debate.

I like that Pete. I agree, unfortunatly I don't see it happening. At least not in this country. My boss is married to a guy that believes whatever Fox News tells him to believe. A good friend believes whatever Indymedia has to say. Neither seems to want to engage in reasoned debate. Many of of friends just roll their eyes when I open my mouth and say "oh, here comes the liberal point of view". As if I am not willing or able to see the vast land that lies in between.

How do we acheive reasoned debate when up against so much media brainwashing? I read whatever I can lay my hands on, everything from the Nation to the Readers Digest (are these people even from the same planet?). And everything in between, and still can't seem to find the truth that makes sense.

My adopted father was a homophobic racist through and through. He ended his life with grandchildren of all four races, and a gay son. He came to love his grandchildren and grieved the loss of his only biologic son to Aids. He freely admitted he had been wrong about so many things and worked hard to educate himself. While my biological father, a supposed liberal, is a closet racist, who only came to truly embrace his mixed grandchildren when they all excelled and he could brag about them. Is that love?

I'd like to believe that reasoned debate will prevail. And maybe it will.

[gone]

gone fishin

[pete61uk]

LauraB wrote:

"I like that Pete. I agree, unfortunately I don't see it happening. At least not in this country."

I can see you've got your "pessimism" hat on. Not to knock it off, but there is room to manoeuvre:

My father, your father and stepfather, most of their generation and (I hope) a minority of ours, are all among the "brainwashed", all refusing to believe anything not pre-packaged by their role-models or spouted in their newspaper or magazine of choice.

In one form or another there will always be institutionalised prejudice as there will always be people willing to manipulate those who can't see beyond their own self-interests or fears. The polite term for which, is “politics”. Consequently, it’s not something you can legislate out of existence.

Whatever truth is out there, for it to be worth anything at all, people have to discover it for themselves. As with your father, mine and many others the same, that they were and still are prepared to admit once strongly held beliefs false proves there is hope. That you are not as your father was is additional proof. Further, that you and many others like you, are role model to another generation who will in turn expand on and pass on those “reasoned” beliefs is all the optimism I can stand without a few beers.

In the meantime, I suggest you take full advantage and get Fox News to tell your boss he doesn't pay you enough.

[Steven Glover]

As I said the reason I have been asking this is for a site I am working on for myself. Here is the baby stages of that site www.disciplesoftech.us I can use as much helpo and suggestions as possible. Perhaps even some articles on this subject for the first newsletter. :)

Thanks guys

[mikmik]

Steven, please forgive me, but I cannot recall the name of the book by Heinlien(?) about Lazurus Long and the story of his long lived family, and the 'predjudices'and 'jealosies' of the populace that lead to their hiding and subsequent fear for survival. Something about "Love" ?
In any event, I think it was in "The First Man" by A. Camus (my memory is confusingly overwhelmed with incomplete memories of the many great books I've read, made possible by technology - printing presses, transportation, communication, etc.)
in which his 'semi-autobiographical' character is afforded the luxury of, in fact - THE ONLY LUXURY, TIME.
He has the time (because of adequate money) to travel and thus experience his roots and explore his existance and changing life, unencumbered by 'duty'.

I hear what people say about the basic human 'personality' being fundamental and everwhere evident. However, one characteristic I usually see used to describe a progressive society is the appreciation and sharing of ideas, art, and self expression.

Never ever before, not even close, have we been able to share, not just locally, but worldwide, our selves with the rest of humanity.

There are literally millions of us with websites and blogs in which we share art - graphical, musical, and written, and opinion/ideas. Language is no longer an insurmountable barrier, further extending our individual reaches!

For the first time, I re-iterate, I have come into contact with bright, thoughtful, and aware people and have been exposed the most basic of human capacities - COMPASSION. And the desire for harmony and preservation of life.

Because my 'circle of influence' has been so dramatically enlarged, I no longer am as influenced by local predjudices and view's of the world. My parents are still divorsed and wounded, my brother still is viscious to my sister-in-law, the neighborhood bullies still terrorize, and in-laws are in-laws!

But this is not my whole world anymore. I am becoming more a product of great beauty and brilliant ideas, and see many successful and happy people in loving relationships.

I have the courage to stand up for my belief's and begin to change my life and actions because of the support of knowing others and seeing their examples.

I have had a very lonely life, in certain respects, of not being able to share my idea's and (humour!) and benifit from the feedback and discussion with similarily 'enlightened' people, now over.

I live in a society that has the resources to support me and facillitate my learning a new method of working and earning a living (I've injured myself to the point that I can no longer do physical work, the only 'skills' I have had) and the foresight to value my continued contribution to life.

Technology provides the 'mechanical' advantages necessary to generate excess wealth (beyond the survival necessities) to afford the time for all this.

As more information and knowledge, and the time to experience such, becomes spread increasingly widely,
we can only grow and become more 'one' with each other, and oppression becomes less acceptable to the greater majority of people, who are basic in feeling and compassion.

I still like to talk, though! lol

But I love to listen more than ever.

And when the robots get here, I'll let the 'staff' have time on the computer, too!

(Let's get this puppy in the gender genie :o)

[Steven Glover]

Time Enough For Love is the name of the book. Heinlein has greatly influenced my beliefs and also helped combat the development of a number of prejudices that I could have easily developed in my youth. I am greatful to have had the luxury of reading books from such a forward thinking individual.

[mikmik]

Thanks Steven. He's one of the best, alright, and I was similarily influenced.

[gone]

seeya

[ldyguique]

As I was sitting here and munching on a mix of "gourmet" olives that I get from the olive bar at a local grocery store (similar in variety and quality to the ones obtained in the Italian Market District of Philadelphia,) I was pondering what I knew about olives. Rather little, I had to admit. I'd heard all of my life how bitter the fruit is and how it has to be cured in order to be edible. And, the various varieties that I like range from quite salty to a bitter-edge to the rather bland "California" variety.

If all the fruit is bitter, who had the bright idea(s) of curing it in some manner or other that made it edible? And, who figured out that the olive contains a high degree of oil that can be pressed out into a useful form? Greek mythology notwithstanding, it doesn't give details about how Athena's gift to mankind included a manual.

Google called my name, and sent tendrils of enticement to me . . .come see, come search, come find out about olives. Well, I'm a sucker for a good mystery; so, off I went.

It is known that olive tree cultivation was "in process" in both Syria and Crete about 5,000 years ago. Since a culture does not cultivate fruit production trees unless they serve a useful purpose, olive use had its discovery in ancient times too far back to even be part of a substantial folklore tradition (other than a few Greek mythological tales from a much later period and a couple of biblical references, which are also from a later period).

I found out that the earliest archeological dig that discovered an "olive factory," was in Clazomenae, Turkey and is dated to about 2600 b.c., or roughly 4,500 years ago.


Excavations in this region have revealed the earliest known olive processing plant, showing the
importance of Anatolia in the development of olive cultivation and technology. This was the first time
that archeologists discovered a complete olive oil factory.

Continuous production by means of a 3 compartment oil separation system was first carried out here, showing that Clazomenae possessed technology far ahead of its contemporaries. After the excavation was completed it was seen that technology developed at this city 2,500 years ago was basically the same as that used today. http://www.toptenturkey.com/Olive_History_Turkey.htm


That means that 4,500 years ago, this was already a stable and developed technology by at least "some" of the Mediterranean peoples. Most of the other historical references and art depictions begin about 1,000 years later.

There are no myths and folktales about the discovery of olive curing and oil. Which came first? Olive pressing, i.e., oil or olive curing? Since olive oil is pressed from ripe, but still bitter olives, I presume that it did.

My personal theory about salt curing would be an "accidental" discovery. Since early olive cultures, both wild and cultivars, were throughout the Mediterranean, including along the coast. and the trees drop their ripe fruit to the ground, I'm visualizing that "someone" taste-tested a swollen olive found floating on the sea's water. There may have even been an early nomadic tradition of collecting olives from beaches each winter. Figuring out how to duplicate the salted or cured fruit would have to wait for the beginnings of stable communities that may well have sprung up around wild olive groves.

Civilization is deemed to have begun when humans began creating stable, year-around villages and developed specialized skills that were needed by the larger community, but precluded those skilled craftsmen from participating in the larger group effort of hunting, herdsmanship, or farming. They had to barter or trade their products in order to eat.

One of the greatest civilizing influences for humankind is a technology older than memory. Just as we cannot determine who invented the wheel, we cannot determine who did research and development on the olive. Yet, both are with us today.

[minstrel]

In a similar vein, have you ever thought about

- who first saw a puddle of rotted fermenting grapes, grain, vegetables, and/or hops and said, "Hey! that stuff looks like it would be great to drink! let's call it 'alcohol'"?

- who first thought of burning and smoking tobacco, wacky-tabaccy, and other such plants?

- who first thought, "Man, I have SUCH a headache! I wish I had some tree bark to make it go away!"

- and etc., etc.

[mikmik]

Okay, I'll bite.
minstrel asks timeless questions :
- who first saw a puddle of rotted fermenting grapes, grain, vegetables, and/or hops and said, "Hey! that stuff looks like it would be great to drink! let's call it 'alcohol'"?
Answer: a Man
minstrel asks timeless questions :
- who first thought of burning and smoking tobacco, wacky-tabaccy, and other such plants?
Answer: a Man
minstrel asks timeless questions :
- and etc., etc.?
Answer: a Man
minstrel asks timeless questions :
- who first thought, "Man, I have SUCH a headache! I wish I had some tree bark to make it go away!"
Answer: a Woman
Who though first to give in to utter frustration and actually stoop so low as trying a womans suggestion finally?
Answer - sigh....

[rocky1]

Well, whilst thou art thinking.... Have you ever wondered what possessed anyone to even remotely contemplate eating an egg, given it's rather dubious point of origin?

[ldyguique]

Oh, c'mon guys. While I appreciate your sorry attempts at turning everything to humor, all of you are too well-educated to not know about humankind's long prehistory as a hunter-gatherer species. We have a huge braincase and are excellent observers. We competed with all other species for food as we are omnivores. We observed, stole when we could, and ate what other species ate -- which includes carrion, eggs, tubers, insects, grubs, fruit, nuts, vegetative matter, etc. Starvation was a constant spectre, and if the degree of rottenness didn't make one too sick, add rotten or fermenting to any of the above foodstuffs. And, when some of the fermented berries, or sacks of water-logged grain also made one inebriated, it was noticed.

Remember, spices were widely sought by Europeans to cover the taste of "off-color" food, not because it was gourmet.

Since everything eaten by other species isn't non-toxic to humans: whether it's plants, amphibeans, or tidal pool creatures, there has been a long tradition of tribal groups having someone who was a specialist on which plants were edible, which times of the year, which plant parts, which plants produced a healing effect, etc. These individuals have been variously called shaman, wisewo(men), and medicinewo(men). They collected specialized items, engaged in empirical research (testing), and exchanged information with one another when tribes happened across one another -- and they passed on their knowledge to the next generation.

When the world was circumnavigated just a few hundred years ago, many tribal cultures were encountered who were living as hunter-gatherers. Some were constantly nomadic, some were seasonally nomadic, and some moved their village whenever the old site became too contaminated with refuse and opportunistic insects, such as fleas. Nearly all had both a shaman who not only performed ceremonies dealing with the spirit world, but were both healers and the keepers of food safety. All indigenous tribes had some type of mood-altering foodstuff, generally a fermented beverage, although that was hardly the ONLY natural substance that humans enjoyed. Humans LIKE being "under the influence."

Most of human's earliest technlogy were implements to hunt, implements to gather or harvest foodstuffs, implements to store surplus, and implements to alter foodstuffs to a more edible form. Predictable fermentation technology went on the list early.

It has been widely speculated in most doomsday Sci-Fi that modern civilized humans would starve to death quickly because they lack some basic knowledge of the world around them and have too many preconceptions about what is edible. As those who go through survival training learn, the "ewwwwwwwww" factor has little place in surviving.

[mikmik]

rocky1 asked:
Well, whilst thou art thinking.... Have you ever wondered what possessed anyone to even remotely contemplate eating an egg, given it's rather dubious point of origin? If I remember my history correctly, that is creditted to Miss Gurga Oonk, a prehistoric woman who did it after a cavegirls night out lasted into the wee hours.
She apparently mixed a raw egg (one of the few cro-magnon words that is still in use to this day!) with tobasco sauce. This was before the use of White Willow bark had become widespread, and is also the start of the still popular idea of breakfast.
So, eggs for breakfast is a very old tradition, but it took a man to introduce the idea of serving them up on a delightfully light English muffin, slice of cured wild boar and drenched in Hollandaise sauce, several weeks later!

You should see what mama elephants feed their kids! That is one idea I'm glad didn't catch on, a brown cocoction that originates from a slightly different orrifice! Evidentally, it helps the wee mastodons establish their immune system! While renowned mostly for their incredible feats of memory (an idea that DID become adopted by humans females when it was deduced it would come in handy for argueing with males), female elephants are lesser known for their wry sense of humor! Poor baby Dumbo!

rocky1 asked:
Well, whilst thou art thinking.... Have you ever wondered what possessed anyone to even remotely contemplate eating an egg, given it's rather dubious point of origin?
Not to mention ALL THE EXPERIMENTS THAT DIDN'T 'MAKE IT'!!

Oh, it happened again?! A post while I was posting!
Hey, I'm a reincarnation of Gurga's hubbie, Gulkulp,...I should know!

[mikmik]

Idyguique recalls:
We have a huge braincase and are excellent observers

Hay, speak for yourself!

And also :
Humans LIKE being "under the influence."

Me too!


And finally:
It has been widely speculated in most doomsday Sci-Fi that modern civilized humans would starve to death quickly because they lack some basic knowledge of the world around them and have too many preconceptions about what is edible. As those who go through survival training learn, the "ewwwwwwwww" factor has little place in surviving.

I don't know about that. If a person is hungry enough, they are capable of eating anything, even a steak that is 'well done'... withOUT ketchup even!!

Yiyiyiyi - ikes!!

[mikmik]

Idyguique wrote:
While I appreciate your sorry attempts at turning everything to humor,
That's how 'non-toxic' humor is discovered! We learned it from watching the animals!! You gals get to search for food, the guy's job is to search for humour to use!!! Helps us survive the other experiments!!!! Notice the 'Three Stooges' resemblance to cavemen...and monkeys!!!!!

[mikmik]

Idyguique wrote:
When the world was circumnavigated just a few hundred years ago,

We also do the math around here!

Somebody get me some lithium!!

Who thought of eating THAT!!??!?!

[mikmik]

Oh ya! Women!! They don't like to see men enjoying themselve's!!! Nice knowing you all!!!!

[rocky1]

.......... Since everything eaten by other species isn't non-toxic to humans: whether it's plants, amphibeans, or tidal pool creatures, there has been a long tradition of tribal groups having someone who was a specialist on which plants were edible, which times of the year, which plant parts, which plants produced a healing effect, etc. These individuals have been variously called shaman, wisewo(men), and medicinewo(men)..........


And, on that one breakfast cereal commercial, here state side, which can't be mentioned for fear of allegations of spamming for major cereal making companies, they are called "Mikee"; e.g. "Give it to Mikee, he'll eat anything!" Which brings to mind our mikmik, a.k.a. Mike, (but I didn't tell you that), whom I'm sure has been known to sample a few unknown substances whilst under the influence!

In fact probably more whilst under, than not under!

[mikmik]

rocky1 deduces correctly(that's why he's my lawyer):
Which brings to mind our mikmik, a.k.a. Mike, (but I didn't tell you that), whom I'm sure has been known to sample a few unknown substances whilst under the influence!

In fact probably more whilst under, than not under!
I could write a book!
As could most of the rest of us ;o)

As to the "Give it to Mikeee..." it was ubiquitous up north about ten to fifteen years ago as well.
I got so annoyed, then irritated, then homicidal, that I got in the habit of "shoot first, explain later" as way of dealing with about 50,000 references to that commercial every day.
Luckily, the judge was named "Mike", and he threw every one else in jail. LOL(I made all this up)

You see, unlike your great timing for the reference, and original usage (Like blonde jokes for wen, heard them all before...repeatedly!) which caused me great fits of laughter, every time I was in the vicinity and someone said "yuck" or "don't like that food" or "toothpaste" or...or...or...anything and everything - they would say - "Give it to ..."
and laugh ;like they among the first 10,000 people to have ever thought that one up!!!!

I need therapy again !!!! GIVE IT TO M-I-K-E-E-E-E-......
lol :o)
But it is true...

[gone]

seeya

[rocky1]

rocky1 deduces

Ah yes, how well I know! You see rocky1 isn't me real name, "Henry Michael" is! In fact I'm a junior; and my grandpa was Henry Mitchell.

My Pa not wanting to be confused with Grand-Pa, went by "Michael" rather than "Henry", and was also known as "Mickey", or "Mick". (Strange coincidence goin' here! As you look a great deal like my younger brother too, Mik.) But alas, as a school child, "Henry" was not a cool name, and since that was before the Governor of California did those movies about the boxer, neither was Rocky, which we were known as since way back in the days of toddlerdom. Not to mention it really confused the teachers, having all those different names for one student, and a few of them were confused enough. And, since I was a Jr. and Pa was known as "H. Michael", so thus did I go by "Michael" a significant part of my life, and I too bore the brunt of them same comments dude!

Know exactly where you're coming from.

Of course, as my father you used to say when asked about my eating habits during my teenager years, "If it ain't nailed down, and don't fight back, it doesn't stand a chance around here!"

And, yes I have eaten a great many things, others of more delicate eating habits might just consider strange!

[mikmik]

rocky1 writes:
You see rocky1 isn't me real name, "Henry Michael" is!

Yes, that explains the excellent nature of your humour about " Hey, Mikey! He likey!"(It sure sounds like that's what his buddy says lol)

BTW. My name? William Michael 8-O
Yes! Dad = Bill

How ya doin, Hank?! Ma name, well peupl call mi Bill 'roun' these here parts, hyuk, hyuk...

We'd still be munchin'... :o)

[vfaulkner]

Technology's toll on mankind is not always positive. as mentioned above, tech has largely been in the form of machines, that of industry and that of war. What would the world be like if swords,guns, bombs, etc, and need to better said, had never come into being?

in terms of medicine.
It is all great and good, but what is there to do if something backfires?
For example, as a baby, I had an allergic reaction to my immunization shots, a fever that essentially cooked a portion of my brain, causing me to 'develop' Cerebral Palsy. I often wonder if how life would be different if...

I guess a minority of issues/small percentages of irregularities is outweighted by the millions of others that are saved without incident...

quoted from an old friend:
"Your sacrifice will be worth millions."