Is it possible? Is it worth it? [Archive]

JKomp

03-30-2005, 07:33 AM

I was wondering whether this group of experts (non-expert opinions very welcome also) believe it is possible to get a new site to number one on google for an EXTREMELY competitive keyword like "web design". And if it is possible (of course it is possible) is all the effort it would take worth it? Would the time (and money?) be better spent on other efforts?

Has high ranking become a mountain that when climbed merely gives a good view of an even higher mountain? Should we simply work away at the bottom of the mountain and wait for it to come to us?

JKomp

03-30-2005, 07:35 AM

sorry this should be in the search engine discussion forum not just google, as it applies to search engine ranking in general. Would a mod kindly move it for me?

ctabuk

03-30-2005, 08:46 AM

Web Design, well I'll make you giggle, one of my keywords is 'PRC Homes' (Prefabricated Reinforced Concrete)I have been top on Google (and every where else)for over 2 years and it brings in a few good enquiries. Today I was checking my rankings and I'd dropped to 2nd, no big deal, but I'd been overtaken by a post I had made in Inside Housing Forum, which has about as much use as a dead rabbit, so post Web Design in that forum and you never know!Why Google loves a forum with hardly any members, hardly any posts is beyond me, but try it. What harm can it do?

Apart from that you could try my Initial trick, pm me and I'll go through it with you Cheers David

JKomp

03-30-2005, 11:38 AM

You seem to be back up to number 1, with the forum ranking second (on my comp anyway)

lorien1973

03-30-2005, 05:42 PM

What's your goal with the word - traffic or sales? I don't think it'll bring sales (too general), but just traffic.

I think that with almost any term, its possible to get #1 with, even for a new site, given enough time, content, etc.

I wouldn't focus on it though, sometimes rankings for those "wild blue yonder" words comes easiest when you don't try.

I'd focus on much smaller words.

Web design in (city)
cheap web design

Etc etc (I dont know the keywords for this topic, but those seem reasonable). Then I'd get a site together that not only ranks for those words, but converts for them as well.

corporateface

03-30-2005, 06:00 PM

Ask them...
http://www.leveltendesign.com/
#4 in google for website design

It all depends on your goals.
Corporate Face's offering is Free Custom Website Design.

Put in Free Custom Website in google.
I'm #3 & #4. I get some traffic for that.

However, in the mind of the consumer,
1. You don't put Free & Custom together very often.

2. People searching for "Free" ... are looking for "Free". Most of those visitors aren't serious prospects. Most of my business comes from referrals and word of mouth. I am extremely busy.

3. My hunch would be that with a key phrase that gets
from overture ... hits in 01/2005
( 312663 web site design )
( 375239 web design )

My web portfolio is much fuller than most of the companies listed at the top.

Look up Free Website Design.
you'll get free-website-design.com (My guess is that he gets tons of visits, but his stuff isn't the best quality stuff). You have to have a good product a good call to action, etc...

If your website WORKS with the traffic you are getting then it should work when you apply the "Law of Large Numbers" to it.

IMHO.

Keith

strum4life

03-30-2005, 06:05 PM

I would say that it's not possible without spending a ton of money on link text advertising. Google favors older sites over new sites, so even as you gain link popularity, you're fighting an uphill battle.

enders

03-30-2005, 06:46 PM

We did this last year for our very competitive keyword, we were very agressive and got to number one within about 3 months. Here's a shortened timeline -

1. Spend huge amounts of money on PR and text links, running our own links campaigns etc.
2. repeat step 1
3. repeat step 1
4. repeat step 1
5. look vaguley ocnfused at not being no1. in Google yet
6. repeat step 1 again and again for 3 months.
7. rank first in google for a hugely competitive keyword for about a month
8. wonder why we bothered
9. watch our rank drop like a stone because we weren't repeating step 1 anymore

We may be unqiue (although I frankly doubt it) but everyone really needs to get past the idea of huge amounts of traffic. I can buy 20,000 hits a day for next to nothing but it costs me more in bandwidth and doesn't generate any sales.

Being 1st in Google is not a magic bullet. We rank 7th or 8th currently and our sales are higher than when we were number 1 - I also suspect our sales are higher than the companies above us because we have the product right and have invested in what we sell and our own site.

noel_x99

03-30-2005, 06:51 PM

If your website WORKS with the traffic you are getting then it should work when you apply the "Law of Large Numbers" to it.

This seems to be the right idea to me. I don't make any efforts to get my portfolio to the top of the SERPS. I've had very few serious clients from search results or phone calls. They come from referrals. There is no better advertising than a satisifed customer!

janeth

03-30-2005, 06:55 PM

It´s not really that hard, we ranked #1 on MSN, #10 on Yahoo and #14 on Google, we bounced around in there for website design, which is pretty close to the same.

We got a lot of business and still do. I think we are now number 7 on MSN and 17 on Yahoo and on Google we go from 20 to no where depending on the day.

jestep

03-30-2005, 07:15 PM

I think it is possible, but you have to have a lot of time and patience, that you are willing to invest into it. A huge amount of money backing you never hurts either.

MarcGrobman

03-31-2005, 02:09 AM

I think it is worth it as long as you don't take it too far -- get your links out there and don't obsess. And I agree that you should focus on your city or area of expertise. "Web design" is too large.

The competition in this field is brutal. If you look at our competition for 'los angeles web design' you can see that many people have given up on making their site look good and have just covered them with relevant text. By the time searchers get to our site they are probably releaved to see something that stands out a little.

I do have to say, good placement has really helped us when business was slow. And now that it is picking up we get more inquiries than we can handle. I do sometimes wonder if I could have spent my SEO time better on billable work while paying for Adwords.

newhomeplans

03-31-2005, 02:50 AM

To jkomp:

I don't think you have to worry about being ranked in the top ten to get your business started. As "corporateface" so aptly stated, offer your potential customers something that would be hard for them to refuse; such as "free" preliminary design proposals, or "free" market evaluation". What can you offer that others do not?

We started our web based architectural design business by offering free preliminary drawings and were almost immediately swamped by requests from all over the world. Some people did buy our services, but most did not. We soon learned how to sort the buyers from the lookers.

I have no idea of where we rank on Google or other search engines, but we will soon have to expand our business again to keep up with the demand.

Good luck;
Allen Jones
Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Canada

http://newhomeplans.net

dviney

03-31-2005, 06:21 AM

Here is an alternative, but hopefully useful, take on your question, drawn from some research I did for the SEO Guide I blogged recently (see http://viney.com/search-engine-optimization-expert).

One way to top ramkings is to look for related keywords which are today "underserved" (i.e. where demand is relatively high compared to the supply of relevant sites).

For the demand side, go to the Overture Keyword Selector - see http://inventory.overture.com/d/searchinventory/suggestion/ - and put in your terms (eg. web design). From this, compile a list of, say, four 3-word combinations. Make a note of the "demand scores" that Overture gives you.

Next, the supply side; go to the Google Smackdown tool - at http://www.onfocus.com/googlesmack/down.asp - and enter the combinations one after another, in pairs. Write down their "supply scores" that the tool returns (for the number of sites serving that keyword combination on Google).

For each combination, divide the demand score by the supply score. The result - which you could call "underserved score" - measures the degree to which that keyword combination is (under)served by the market today. The combination with the highest underserved score is where the perhaps biggest opportunity lies to carve out a niche and achieve a high ranking.

Comments on this take welcome.

mantawebsolutions

03-31-2005, 06:30 AM

Unlike "enders", you don't need to spend a cents worth to get placed in Google or any other SE for that matter. It requires good webdesign savvy, a good linking campaign and simple networking.

1. Design your site properly, make it attractive so that both SE's and viewers like it
2. use all the techniques to keep your page simple and clean, making use of CSS.
3. add lots of meaningful text on your pages.
4. provide good text links to navigate the site
5. link only to sites within your field of expertise

that should get you out of the starting blocks

ctabuk

03-31-2005, 06:58 AM

Melt, you have come a long way! lol
Number 5 - No, linking to areas of your own expertise is not enough, you need to link to sites that your public will want to visit. I'm slowly getting into Local Holiday sites for my County and it is surprising how many 'thanks for that'messages we get.

danielle v2.1b

03-31-2005, 07:00 AM

This is an interesting topic. What I would like to throw in is this:

What is the difference between a site that gets 1000 visitors a day and has 10% conversion rate and a site that gets 100,000 visitors a day and has a 0.1% conversion rate?

The difference in my mind would be long term success. Whilst both sites are netting the same level of conversion (be that a sale, a registration whatever) one site is acheiving a far higher rate. That will normally mean it has a better proposition, is more customer focussed or has some other quality to it that endears it to customers. When you win over customers you grow and that's what this is all about.

Yes, to some degree it is a numbers game but I really feel that provided you can drive reasonable traffic to your site, it is better to spend one's time working on conversion that promotion. There must be thousands of commercial sites out there that wouldn't stand the PPC test - invest $100 in clicks and see if you get it back with more. If the site can't do that most basic feature, don't worry about trying to get top ranks because the dissapointment will only break your heart. There's no point being in a business that makes $100k a year but costs you $110k, or $100k or even $90k. You'd still be better off working at Burger King. Your time might be free, but if the site isn't paying you and no-one else is that time is serious lost money. Don't waste your life chasing dreams, go for realistic and workable approaches.

Quality sites are like bubbles that rise to the top of the internet sea. Use your time to make money-generating infrastructure, not net noise. If I was advising I would say I think you should focus on making the site provide a high level of conversion with 80% of your time and put just 20% of your time into promotion.

Dani

mantawebsolutions

03-31-2005, 07:29 AM

danielle v2.1b

03-31-2005, 07:42 AM

ctabuk, i have to agree with you. The more links back to my site does count, but in all fairness, it makes no sense for my site (in the scuba diving or travel industry) to link to sites in a industry like Engineering or even Adult toys ??

Uhm, don't SE's penalize you if this is the case ?

If I read ctabuk as meaning related info then it makes sense - for example diving could be related to swimming, surfing or other water sports (that's your shared keyword), it could also be related to fish, coral reefs, ocean life etc.

The best is where you share 80%+ keywords with a site, like when you are both diving sites. But where that is a competitive issue, look for sites with some shared keywords and it's still meaningful.

Obviously clam diving, warm wet bikini clad girls and dolphins could be something that you and adult toy content sites share in common, however if you're not an adult site it is a good idea to keep your links page pure and virgin...

JKomp

03-31-2005, 07:56 AM

wow glad to see the topic was featured on Page One. My question was clearly a loaded one, for competitive keywords i believe it is better to work on the quality of your site with an aim to increase conversion rates than to try to climb the rankings mountain. I have witnessed webmasters add things that adversely effect the overall design and functionality of their site in an effort to please the SEs. This seems like madness to me.
In my experience high rankings occur as a happy coincidence of working on the quality of your site. Of course getting links is always a good idea too!

ctabuk

03-31-2005, 11:25 AM

I was getting quite turned on by her thread, I think a couple of girls heard me laugh, yes, any content that brings people to your site even unrelated is fine, for a start you cannot stop it happenning, you reach a certain level of backlinks and other Directories find you and link to you.
Now this question on numbers and %'s - if you are getting 10,000 hits and only getting 1% click throughs, then your site is wrong, it ain't user friendly. We only get 30 hits per day, but we convert at least 50% into business, different markets, different expectations. More tommorow, it's wine time here in the UK - April Fools Day tomorrow, watch my posts/ David

JKomp

03-31-2005, 11:51 AM

15 clients a day and still got time for wine, now that is what i aspire to Ctabuk

jacobwissler

03-31-2005, 12:55 PM

I would like to make two suggestions:

1. You will find it much easier to sell web design to people in your local community, so why not add the city name, which makes it a far less competitive phrase. My clients come to my office and hand me a check; that is far easier than asking someone to mail a check to a person they have never met.

2. Those of us in the industry use the phrase "web design" but your customers probably do not know the industry lingo. They may search for business websites, or corporate websites, followed by the name of the city. These are not a competetive phrases, and you should be able to be #1 without much difficulty.

I am ranked #1 for 9 non-competitive phrases in Houston and my phone rings constantly. I do not need customers in China or Canada, because I doubt that anyone there would actually send me money. There are 4.5 million people in the Houston metro area. That is enough for any web design business.

incrediblehelp

03-31-2005, 02:17 PM

With the help of public opinion ranking for ANY keyword is possible.

Paul B

03-31-2005, 03:55 PM

As an experiment starting about 3 months ago I tried to get my site highly positioned with Google.com for 'web design'. I failed miserably and don't appear in the top 1000.

However, I rank #1 for 'top quality web design' #4 for 'xhtml sites', #2 for 'portfolio logos', #7 for ' top quality websites',#2 for 'website design switzerland' (where I am based). Plus dozens of other keywords.

Which taught me a lot...

Meanwhile, the site at #1 for web design - www.wpdfd.com has fulfilled the golden Google rule and has deep, original relevant content on, you guessedit - web design.

jacobwissler

03-31-2005, 04:57 PM

incrediblehelp

03-31-2005, 05:01 PM

Meanwhile, the site at #1 for web design - www.wpdfd.com has fulfilled the golden Google rule and has deep, original relevant content on, you guessedit - web design.

Deep linking IBL's with varying anchor text, with original content on the page is the Google gold mine!!!

DreamingEagle

03-31-2005, 05:40 PM

jacobwissler

03-31-2005, 05:50 PM

With all this emphasis on being listed first, do not forget that the page must be attractive. If it does not LOOK good, people can click away very fast. This is especially true for a web designer, who is selling artistic ability.

greeneagle

03-31-2005, 06:11 PM

Quote:
"Meanwhile, the site at #1 for web design - www.wpdfd.com has fulfilled the golden Google rule and has deep, original relevant content on, you guessedit - web design."

Guess What? _ It W3C validates too!

Ken

janeth

03-31-2005, 06:31 PM

jacobwissler

03-31-2005, 06:33 PM

The #2 site for web design is "web pages that suck."

newhomeplans

04-01-2005, 03:16 AM

To the "incredible hulk" from Detroit. Don't feel bad, my photos are just as ugly. Personally I am an ardent Manchester United and a Calgary Flames fan. Is this a sports forum?

Back to business:
After you spend a lot of time and money, you may be able to get your site listed in the top 10 for that particular keyword; but that will not automatically make your site a success.

Your potential customers will compare you with the thousands of other similar web sites, and you might be able to sign 10% of them to a contract.

If you can think of other unique keywords that people may type when searching for web design, you will greatly enhance your potential to win customers.

Allen Jones
New Home Plans
Salmon Arm BC

http://newhomeplans.net

ctabuk

04-01-2005, 03:26 AM

The question is, what phrase will your potential customers type into Google to find your service? I have spent a lot of time in Interlaken, Switzerland, and in my opinion, the Swiss are much more likely to do business with a company in Switzerland than to wire money to the UK or America for the same service.

Surely that depends on the currency exchange rates, I know that guys in the States are using UK (Verio for example)Companies to register .com's as they cost far less over here.There must be locations where your expertise would be greatly appreciated and if they pay a deposit by credit card, where's the problem?

mantawebsolutions

04-01-2005, 03:39 AM

Both Jacob and catbuk have valid points here.

It is just as important to cater for the local crowd as it is for the international visitor. I do however think that it depends on the nature of the business.

Keeping it local for sites that sell websites or web design makes good sense as per Jacob's description and on the other end of the scale selling domain names depend entirely on who is the cheapest (at least in my opinion)

In our business (as scuba diving tour operators) we aim to sell safaris and tours to South Africa, so our market is more for the international tourist, so we aim get listed in the top International SE's and directories first. Our local SE's don't get near enough of the same attention that the Google's, MSN's and others get.

However, i still make a point of getting us listed in ALL (both international and local) sites.

The important factors are:

1. know who/where your target market is
2. market your site by whatever means avialable to that specific market
3. turn visits into sales

Mr. Black

04-01-2005, 06:17 AM

ctabuk

04-01-2005, 06:30 AM

Let’s get real - the closer you are to number one --the more sales you make---Period!!! I read some guy had 3 sales at number one and he was complaining. Could you imagine how many sales he would have made at say number 40------------NONE.

Is it worth it to get to the top of the mountain - well let’s put it this way: When it rains you get wet first!!!

Mr Black, I love the optimism, but you are so far off, maybe for you that works, maybe you sell something that people want time and time again, if so good, well done. But if a site (even at number one) has feint print, bad linkage, bad download time, too much flash, too little choice,over priced goods, shall I go on? It won't make sales.

JKomp

04-01-2005, 06:37 AM

I think Mr. Black's point is that a site with "feint print, bad linkage, bad download time, too much flash, too little choice,over priced goods" - will make more sales at number 1 than it would at number 40, which is true. But for such a site, wouldnt the effort taken have been better spent on improving the look and functionality? This would surely ensure more sales and perhaps even make it easier to get to number 1.

ctabuk

04-01-2005, 06:56 AM

Good point, but you know where I was coming from, and you are correct, if you have both then you will make sales. I cannot speak for others but I'm finding my site at more number 1 listings than ever before, and not for my keywords, but random collections of phrases from page literature.
And I am sure that Mr Black would rather make 50 sales than 3 lol

JKomp

04-01-2005, 07:08 AM

hey ctabuk, i posted web design in that housing forum, it doesnt appear to have worked though :( d'oh! I think i reached the limit of its powers.

ctabuk

04-01-2005, 07:52 AM

I've got your URL I'll post it for you, It's already in there, and had a praisworthy reply, so just wait for the google bots to find it, maybe if it works we can crack Google!!!

newhomeplans

04-02-2005, 01:28 AM

Mr. Black:

I entirely agree with ctabuk, jkomp and others. If you are ranked at #1 but have a bad web site design or offer poor service to your customers, you are likely to fail. Your customers are always right!

Allen Jones
New Home Plans

ctabuk

04-02-2005, 05:40 AM

NewHomePlans, good post lol
Go to profile and add your sig (URL)
Welcome

DrTandem1

04-02-2005, 10:55 AM

Here's a thought, why not just all that time and energy into building a site for your visitors? Advertise by targeting your audience.

Too many "designers" target the search engines, especially Google. Google is not targeting your site or anyone's site for that matter. They are targeting their searchers, who are their visitors. They do this with by attempting to match the visitors' requests to the relevant content they seek. Therefore, you should make your content relevant to your visitors and potential visitors and Google will help them find it.

mantawebsolutions

04-03-2005, 03:40 AM

DrTandem1: Here's a thought, why not just all that time and energy into building a site for your visitors? Advertise by targeting your audience.

Too many "designers" target the search engines, especially Google. Google is not targeting your site or anyone's site for that matter. They are targeting their searchers, who are their visitors. They do this with by attempting to match the visitors' requests to the relevant content they seek. Therefore, you should make your content relevant to your visitors and potential visitors and Google will help them find it.

I agree completely with you that one needs to design a site with good content for the visitor, but as a designer, i need to make sure that the SE's like it too.

don't you think ?

Paul B

04-03-2005, 05:19 AM

DrTandem1

04-03-2005, 12:39 PM

In my experience, very little new business comes cold from my 'web design' site - most comes from recommendation.

But like a dentist's teeth, a web designers site should be an example of your work in all respects. So if you can't build yourself a site that ranks in the SEs (plus all the other requirements) what confidence is a potential client going to have in your ability to build him/her a site that will rate?

Yes, Paul, you are exactly correct. However, there is no way one can guarantee that a site will be in any particular place in the SERPs. Yes, I have seen SEO firms make such promises. All too often I read posts from disappointed site owners who want to know why it didn't happen.

I think we can all agree that just because a site is number 1 in Google will not automatically translate into sales. The site needs to perform properly or it's simply a lot of traffic that leaves almost as soon as it arrived.

Most business does come from a recommendation of some sort. Some will think that being number one in the SERPs is a recommendation. I know that you meant from someone who has tried and liked a service or product.

A more powerful recommendation (to get high in the SERPs) would be quality (relevant) links to your site in the form of content on external sites. This would most definitely boost a site in the eyes of the search engines.

Again, aiming to be high in the SERPs is putting the cart before the horse. In business, your goal is to make money, but you don't focus on counting how much money you have. Sure, it is a result of success, but your success comes from satisfying your customers' needs. Do that and the rest will follow.