Am I the first one who was sparked with this idea?

[Artyom]

It's about Google rankings algorithm.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I never read it anywhere else. The idea is the following.

Let's perform a search with the keyword animated website, look at SERPs (the first page review will be enough) and then do the same search "animated website" (with quotes) withing SERPs first page sites (go to each site and do on site search). It's easier to do it via Googlebar. site:sitename.com "animated website" and pay your attention where you find these two words keyword (page title, anchor text, plain text).

The sites on first SERPs have many pages contain this keyword (exact match within title is the best way to be ranked higher). I'm not saying this is the major ranking influence factor, but definetely the important one.

Google anylize the whole website for any given keyword to calculate this keyword weight on a website.

ps. www.looneytunes.com has his first place because of huge inbound links number ;-)

[Artyom]

Simple logic - when people search for info/product/service thre are much more chances that they find what they've been looking for on a web site, not a single web page. So as soon as Google eagers to give people what they look for they have to rank higher web sites related to a keyword not a single pages.

It's obvious in order to give a web site a high ranking by some keyword you gotta analyze if this keyword contains among site pages. I'm not saying a site has to contain this keyword in every possible imagineable places:-))), no - but I believe Google has some conditions set to make a judjment if a site contains a keyword enough to rank it high.

So I believe now when you optimize your web site page and you want this page to be rank high at GG you gotta look at the whole web site, make sure a keyword you fight for is a topic for many pages of your site (it has to be included at your sites titles, text on a page, anchor text and I believe alt tag still plays important role)

And more, now you can manipulate with your site pages RageRank using 'nofollow' tag.

ps. I'll finish this post a bit later, gotta go now.

[janeth]

Let take a tuffer keyword, how about computers the #2 result is Apple the title is apple the word computer is no where on the page.

Guess it does not always work the way we think?

[Artyom]

Janeth, despite russian is my native language I don't know what's going on at Sergey Brin and his talented team heads:-)

So this is my assumption and speaking about Apple.com, yes you can't find 'computers' on their home page, but make search on apple.com website for the same keywords -> more then 20,000 pages contain this word. The whole site is dedicated to 'computers' topic plus inbound links still plays its role as well.

I have to admit that for competitive keywords as 'computers' keyword is site pages quantity plays very important role as well.

[janeth]

Google ranks one page at a time and the only effect the other pages should have on each other is in the links.

So that being said and looking at my sample it proves that on page things effect sites very little and they do not have to have them to rank on Google.

[janeth]

Why does The Biography of President George W. Bush rank #1 for Miserable failure?

[DMC_34]

Google ranks one page at a time and the only effect the other pages should have on each other is in the links.

I do believe theme plays a small role in the SERP's, but when all is said done links from relevant sites with good anchor text are the true reason for the ranking on any competitive word.

I believe:

The factors in Links from most important to least:
1. Topic Relevancy
2. Link Text
3. Pagerank

IMO: Title Tags, content, and other on page optimizations have little affect of really tough keywords such as "computers". Apple is where they are simply because of IBL's, not theme. Take the links away and they plummit. But even a mass quantity of any links, such as Apple, has will always keep them as a competitor regardless of whether or not 50% of the links contain the keyword "Computers." Quality links count for more but Quantity is still important as well.

[janeth]

What are you calling Topic Relevancy?

[DMC_34]

What are you calling Topic Relevancy?

Simply, if the site ranks high for "Gardening" then a link such "Gardening Tools" pointing to my site is a relevant topic as long as I either sell or offer Gardening Tools and the link is pointing to a page on my site about this topic. Best to be on the page that ranks but it doesnt have to be. These links count for much more than normal Christmas link on the Used Car website. This is where site theme does play a role, in my opinion, topic relevancy powering quality links.

[florabalance]

I agree with the concept of "topic relevancy" and it seems that the apple/computer example supports this.

[Artyom]

Why does The Biography of President George W. Bush rank #1 for Miserable failure?

Janeth, I think it's more politics then technology (yeah I know Google may say they didn't touch it but I believe they did it;-) by reason)

ps. I'm neither republican or democrat as I'm not ametican;-)

[Artyom]

What are you calling Topic Relevancy?

Simply, if the site ranks high for "Gardening" then a link such "Gardening Tools" pointing to my site is a relevant topic as long as I either sell or offer Gardening Tools and the link is pointing to a page on my site about this topic. Best to be on the page that ranks but it doesnt have to be. These links count for much more than normal Christmas link on the Used Car website. This is where site theme does play a role, in my opinion, topic relevancy powering quality links.

Agree, 'topic relevancy' is the right word for what I'm telling here.

Tell me, how Google determines what's a site topic? What is about? Is there another way on this planet then considering all site pages? I guess Janeth got me wrong I AM NOT TELLING that Topic relevancy is the major factor and topic inbound links doesn't mean anything - no they are still play the major role at ranking.

But let's say I could grabbed (bought;-) ) 50 target (with my keyword included at anchor text) links, but the keywords I chose are really rare on my site (within page body + title) does Google may shows my site at top 5? If my site doesn't contain the keywords I target it means I don't use them -> so my site has another topic not the one which is based on wrong keyword I chose.

[janeth]

Why does The Biography of President George W. Bush rank #1 for Miserable failure?

Janeth, I think it's more politics then technology (yeah I know Google may say they didn't touch it but I believe they did it;-) by reason)

ps. I'm neither republican or democrat as I'm not ametican;-)

There are more then just that one and I realy have a hard time thinking that Google made that site rank there.

Do you really think Google plays that loose with there business?

[janeth]

Why does a search for waffles bring up John Kerry´s website?

[Artyom]

Why does a search for waffles bring up John Kerry´s website?

I wouldn't mind to listen to your explanation before giving my answer.

[DMC_34]

Why does a search for waffles bring up John Kerry´s website?


Obvious link text and IBL's for Kerry and "waffling"

[janeth]

Why does a search for waffles bring up John Kerry´s website?

I wouldn't mind to listen to your explanation before giving my answer.


Google-bombing - A popular prank on the Web. Bloggers have found they can manipulate search results by hyperlinking unsavory labels to individual pages.

It does not matter whats on the site.

[DMC_34]

Why does a search for waffles bring up John Kerry´s website?

I wouldn't mind to listen to your explanation before giving my answer.


Google-bombing - A popular prank on the Web. Bloggers have found they can manipulate search results by hyperlinking unsavory labels to individual pages.

It does not matter whats on the site.

Link popularity is only one factor although the most important. But if you rest all your power on this you are setting yourself up for failure. Diverisfy your power with theme, content, and links. I cant truly believe G isnt going to try to tweak this at some point. It's a cycle, content lead to keyword spam, then set more and more power to links and now we have a ton of link spam. Rely only on links and eventually you will be one of the ones asking "What happened?"

Diversity = Stability

[Artyom]

Why does a search for waffles bring up John Kerry´s website?


Obvious link text and IBL's for Kerry and "waffling"

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=site:www.johnkerry.com+waffles

I'm using Google's standard operator 'on site search'

site:www.sitename.com keyword

It supposes to search for a keyword within a site content? Well....now open the three pages (Google returns you - index.html, about/index.html and splash.html) source code - it does not contain 'waffles' You many think Google has saved this keyword at its cashe? It didn't and even if he did - did anybody mentioned this word on Kerry's website home page? Really?

[janeth]

Artyom

If you click on Cached you will see, These terms only appear in links pointing to this page: waffles

So, no it is not on that page.

Google ranks one page at a time and I have never seen any proof that the other page topics on that site effect the rest of the site.

[janeth]

DMC_34,

We can all guess what Google may or may not do, I´m just showing you what works now. Guessing what they might do and then changing your website, seems crazy to me.

[DMC_34]

DMC_34,

We can all guess what Google may or may not do, I´m just showing you what works now. Guessing what they might do and then changing your website, seems crazy to me.

True, but SEO sometimes = Do what works even if it produces irrelevant results...Google bombing has the ability to do this.

I may be wrong but hasn't Google already taken steps to cut down on this?
1. Something with all the viagra links out there
2. Already discounts a good majoirty of the links it finds if the same link text(not the domain name) is used repeatedly over and over.

Seems only appropriate that when a system is abused, such as content keyword spamming, meta tags, etc Google changes it. When they do sites which do not diversify their ranking power eventually fall. So called "Good sites" dont finish last but rarely get top slot, they stick around consistently "near" the top. This obviously excludes the 900lb gorillas out there, with vast marketing campaigns and IBL's. As always I think the day will come where IBL's will be lessened in power or atleast discounted. Just take look around at all the link directories and link farms. Instead of spamming your own site it become spamming the entire internet. Time will tell.

[DMC_34]

See http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=43019


0083 - Alternatively, if the content of a document changes such that it differs significantly from the anchor text associated with its back links, then the domain associated with the document may have changed significantly (completely) from a previous incarnation. This may occur when a domain expires and a different party purchases the domain. Because anchor text is often considered to be part of the document to which its associated link points, the domain may show up in search results for queries that are no longer on topic. This is an undesirable result.

0084 - One way to address this problem is to estimate the date that a domain changed its focus. This may be done by determining a date when the text of a document changes significantly or when the text of the anchor text changes significantly. All links and/or anchor text prior to that date may then be ignored or discounted.

I realize this is not actually what has been discussed but I highly doubt what is on the site or page DOESNT matter. It may not matter right now but it may change soon.

[janeth]

It may change soon, you are right. Google may go out of business, I may die tonight, there are a lot of mays.

If Google does something about Google-bombing, those page will no longer rabk at the top. So I would have to say as of so far nothing has been done.

I also herd they were not going to rank any sites that did not have a link to me. (-;

[DMC_34]

It may change soon, you are right. Google may go out of business, I may die tonight, there are a lot of mays.

If Google does something about Google-bombing, those page will no longer rabk at the top. So I would have to say as of so far nothing has been done.

I also herd they were not going to rank any sites that did not have a link to me. (-;

Cute but it is obvious you are missing my point. Diversity = Stability, which means do not base everything links. Add content as well. Just view and read this http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=43019

[janeth]

I add content everyday but your missing my point. I add the content for the visitors, I´m adding pages to sites right now, (but not for the search engines), I add links because they bring me more traffic, (not for the search engines).

I feel like trying to guess what the search engines might do is crazy. If you want to rank the site look at what works and work on that but do not spend the time hoping your going to do something before them.

[DMC_34]

I add links because they bring me more traffic

You previously stated, what is on your site does not matter. All I recommend is diversity. I admit, I do not add links for traffic. How much traffic is generated from reciprocating a link buried down deep in a links page? Very little. I add them for link popularity only. I also buy advertising with BOTH image and text links. I add content for SE's not customers. My customers couldnt care less about the history of my products or any other filibuster.

Good Design + Good Images + Good Products + Good Service = Conversions.

Do I value my SERP's yes I do. After spending 15k a day in Decemeber on Adwords alone, I would love to be #1.

[Artyom]

Cute but it is obvious you are missing my point. Diversity = Stability, which means do not base everything links. Add content as well. Just view and read this http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=43019

It was worth to begin this discussion to read the other post you posted here.

Thanks for an important info!

[janeth]

You previously stated, what is on your site does not matter.


I said you can get ranked without it, I never said it did not matter to your visitors.


All I recommend is diversity. I admit, I do not add links for traffic. How much traffic is generated from reciprocating a link buried down deep in a links page? Very little.

You must get a lot of traffic because I get around 500 to 600 visitors a day just from links. That seems like a lot to me.


I add them for link popularity only.

You missing out on the best part of them. I made $20,000.00 off one job last year that I got from a link.



I add content for SE's not customers. My customers couldnt care less about the history of my products or any other filibuster.

I think your missing a whole market of people out there. What type of business are you in?


Good Design + Good Images + Good Products + Good Service = Conversions.

Good Design + Good Information + Good Traffic + Good Service = Conversion



Do I value my SERP's yes I do. After spending 15k a day in Decemeber on Adwords alone, I would love to be #1.

I have never had to do that. My sites have ranked in the top since they first went online.

[DMC_34]

You must get a lot of traffic because I get around 500 to 600 visitors a day just from links. That seems like a lot to me.


WOW 500-600 from just link exchanges? That is awesome. We never get that many, not even close to that.

We get around 5000 unique visitors daily, right now. But we are seasonal with peak times around Christmas. Last December we had 50,000+ visitors daily.

[Artyom]

You must get a lot of traffic because I get around 500 to 600 visitors a day just from links. That seems like a lot to me.



Janeth, are you talking about this page?
http://www.geeksonsteroids.com/directory/
Hm.....perhaps I don't know something but why you host links with a topic like 'Health', 'News and Media'

Yahoo, Dmoz and Your site....

I do think Google analyze your site content and figure out its topic, theme, which has nothing common with so many diverse topics as your /directory section contains. So having inbound links from health related companies doesn't make sense to me at all, after all you have a website SEO + design services related.
I do agree with Jill [http://www.highrankings.com/linkpopularity.htm]
about your inbound links have to be related to your site topic.

[DMC_34]

I think your missing a whole market of people out there. What type of business are you in?


Greeting Cards and Christmas Cards, www.cardsdirect.com , mostly for Corporate but we do offer some personal cards. 90% of our orders are from business. It's been my experience most corporations do not have the time to research. But I do not know this for sure. We do have have a high conversion for first time visitors so it makes sense.

[DMC_34]

You must get a lot of traffic because I get around 500 to 600 visitors a day just from links. That seems like a lot to me.



Janeth, are you talking about this page?
http://www.geeksonsteroids.com/directory/
Hm.....perhaps I don't know something but why you host links with a topic like 'Health', 'News and Media'

Yahoo, Dmoz and Your site....

I do think Google analyze your site content and figure out its topic, theme, which has nothing common with so many diverse topics as your /directory section contains. So having inbound links from health related companies doesn't make sense to me at all, after all you have a website SEO + design services related.
I do agree with Jill [http://www.highrankings.com/linkpopularity.htm]
about your inbound links have to be related to your site topic.

There is little doubt in my mind that a highly relevant IBL's is worth far more. But there is proof that a mass amount of any type of links still works as well. I prefer to spend my time seeking gift related and holiday related links. Which I believe count for more for my keywords. Business Christmas Cards, Business Greeting cards, etc. The term Corporate Christmas Cards gets up to 14.00 per click on Overture every year. I literally feel sick everytime, but we pay it, because one order can easily be 10,000 cards. We do rank 1-2 on this consistently though

[Artyom]

The term Corporate Christmas Cards gets up to 14.00 per click on Overture every year. I literally feel sick everytime, but we pay it, because one order can easily be 10,000 cards. We do rank 1-2 on this consistently though

I can understand you:-))) I was feeling sick when I saw $10 per click for web hosting, web design related keywords back in 2003-2004 but it's all about your ROI if it gives you 1000 more profit it's ok to pay $10 and even 14 per click. But it's really night mare if you need to test your keywords set and you gotta throw away like several hundreads and even worse then you are an employee and you gotta justify such spendings to your boss:-)

[janeth]

You must get a lot of traffic because I get around 500 to 600 visitors a day just from links. That seems like a lot to me.



Janeth, are you talking about this page?
http://www.geeksonsteroids.com/directory/
Hm.....perhaps I don't know something but why you host links with a topic like 'Health', 'News and Media'

I do think Google analyze your site content and figure out its topic, theme, which has nothing common with so many diverse topics as your /directory section contains. So having inbound links from health related companies doesn't make sense to me at all, after all you have a website SEO + design services related.
I do agree with Jill [http://www.highrankings.com/linkpopularity.htm]
about your inbound links have to be related to your site topic.

I´m glad you agree with Jill, but it works great for me. I see proof everyday that this is not true.

We rank very good on MSN, YAhoo and Google. So I know what I´m doing is working.

But then if what you say is true this forum should not rank for anything because we have sig. links to all kinds of sites?

blackjack betting (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=blackjack+betting&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB) # 3 is a directory that belongs to a client it should not be there, if what you say is true.

Custom Site Design (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=custom+site+design)

Look at #1 here

Colombian Girls (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=colombian+girls&btnG=Search)

#9 here

Same site.

But then we could also look at where DMOZ, Yahoo, kelkoo, ciao.co.uk and many others to proof this to be wrong.

[DMC_34]

I´m glad you agree with Jill, but it works great for me. I see proof everyday that this is not true.

Can you explain this? I have been trying figure this guy out for over a year. He is one of our competitors for "Christmas cards". He owns both, www.1st-class-christmas-cards.com and www.americas-christmas-cards.com. We have twice as many links as he does. On MSN we are #1, Yahoo #4, G #5. I am sure it has something to do with the keyword in the domain name, but a little deeper, all of his links are "1st class christmas cards" - his domain name. I am beginning to think if the link text is the Domain name Google counts it everytime. Whereas if its something else Google may not count every link especially if I had 5,000 links out there with just "Christmas cards" as the link text. What do either of you think?

Also notice how both pages are VERY small like 6k. I think this also plays a factor. More evidence can be found with www.premier-holiday-cards.com for "holiday cards" and same for "wedding invitations", look at the top 2 sites and the page size.

Any ideas?

Maybe it is just his sites are themed just for the keyword?

[janeth]

when it comes to getting ranked links do not matter, it is the anchor text that matters.

So if he has more links with those keywords as the anchor text, he will rank better.

Let me change that as there is more to it then that. IP address, site link are coming from, and other things also play a part.

[DMC_34]

when it comes to getting ranked links do not matter, it is the anchor text that matters.

So if he has more links with those keywords as the anchor text, he will rank better.

Let me change that as there is more to it then that. IP address, site link are coming from, and other things also play a part.

But he doesnt.

As I stated we have almost twice as many links as he does. We also have better links then he does, ie www.christmas.com and www.holidays.net with advertising text links. We are #1 on MSN for "Christmas cards" as this would justify the link theory but it is not the case on Google #5. His sites are all on the same IP C Block and interlinked.

With all this in mind how is it justified?

Links do matter not just link text. A link without text such as image links still count, but to a much lesser extent. Generalizing links would be incorrect as many factors play into it: quantity, quality, link text, alt text, relevancy, age, PR. I am sure Apple couldn't care less about its link text or it's organics. I would bet most of their links are just images with no alt text, but when you have millions it doesnt matter. Just add the word Saddam to their home page and I bet they rank for it without one link text. I have seen this with our site add a new product line and we are in top without one link. When we get links with "thank you cards" all of our rankings go up a little.

There has to be something reasonable as to why he is ranking ahead of us.

[DMC_34]

Noticed Yahoo finally updated its index. Now we are #1 on MSN and Yahoo for Christmas cards. But the true prize G has us at #5