Let's Dispel 3 Google Myths.

[greeneagle]

Let’s Dispel 3 GOOGLE Myths!

1) Keyword rankings are almighty! – This is no longer fact. GOOGLE indexes every word on a Site and including keyphrases. Anyone that keeps up with their stats knows that 95%+_, if not every searching visitor that reaches their site did not search with a single keyword. Virtually everyone that understands anything about the Internet tries to be more specific by using keyphrases. Keyphrases are being preferred by search engines due to shear volume of indexed data and the all out keyword purchasing spam, in itself!. Get a clue folks times are changing! Keywords are quickly becoming nothing but building blocks, and rightly so at this complexity level!

2) There is no total separation between PR (Page Rank) and SE (Search Engine) Rank. PR is not completely determined by popularity!

Google explicitly conveys this as fact:

A. How does Google rank pages?
1. The basics
“Google's order of results is automatically determined by more than 100 factors, including our PageRank algorithm.”
I don’t think they could express it more plainly than that!, Please let’s work to dispel this myth. Sure they are somewhat independent, but they do effect each other or GOOGLE is misleading at several points in their Webmaster Resources Pages!

3) Any Incoming Link is a GOOD Link and helps my Site! – Wrong!, At best links below a 3PR do not help. Incoming 0-PR links usually associated with link farms can hurt PR.

#3 under QUALITY GUIDELINES on the GOOGLE Webmaster’s pages:

-Don't participate in link schemes designed to increase your site's ranking or PageRank. In particular, avoid links to web spammers or "bad neighborhoods" on the web as your own ranking may be affected adversely by those links.

Let’s Dance with the advancement of technology --- or die!
It seems to be that simple,
Ken

[simonm]

Ken

Totally agree, my web site stats show that the vast majority of visitors find my sites through a combination of search terms that are largely unpredicatable. The important thing is that they find my site and considering the key terms used it seems to be relevant which is emphasised by the number of page views per visitor.

However, there are still some serious inconsistencies in site placement that I believe Google still needs to address.

[greeneagle]

simonm

This month I do not have any single keywords in my search strings, not even 2, the least is 3!, and here is #1 on the list:

"detecting Internet fraud"

What do you think about that?
See my post on "Search Engine Discussion" thread:

Alexa Ranks Top 5 Search Engines By Traffic - You Vote
Ken

[janeth]

Hi greeneagle

You said and I quote
"3) Any Incoming Link is a GOOD Link and helps my Site! – Wrong!, At best links below a 3PR do not help. Incoming 0-PR links usually associated with link farms can hurt PR."

I have to disagree on this one.
I thing if you check arond you will find that
There is no incoming link from another site that can hurt your site. Every incoming link helps even a pr0 link and there is no link that hurts as long as you did not link back.

[rlrouse]

1 - Keyphrases are indeed more valuable than keywords. Very few searchers use single keywords these days. Most use anywhere from 2 to 5.

2 - PageRank is indeed one of the 100 odd factors that Google uses to rank pages in the SERPS. But PR plays such a small role when compared to a handful of other factors that it's virtually irrelevent.

Inbound links with good link anchor text coupled with a few on-page factors will get a page ranked above a higher PR page for a specific keyword/phrase every time.

3 - Any inbound link is indeed good and helps your site. If a link brings in one referral a month, it helps your site. And of course today's PR1 page can easily becomes PR6 next month (we see this happen with virtually every Google update).

Also, any link with a PageRank above 0 will give a PR boost to pages that it links to. Although the boost may be miniscule, it could be enough to serve as a "tie-breaker" if all other factors are equal.

4 - "Don't participate in link schemes..." Right on the money with this one.

[sonnie]

I agree with simonm and greeneagle. With the following comments. I started a small site for my girlfriend who became interested in starting an online business. I take care of a couple other sites, and simply followed the same marketing path. She picked out the "template" of the site, one of the typical provided by the hosting company, and I simply created a couple of pages. We were listed with Google after three weeks and if you search for "handcrafted in the usa" (which she insisted upon), we're #2, at least for now. Cleanliness, Content, not hard to accomplish.

[greeneagle]

rlrouse said: PageRank is indeed one of the 100 odd factors that Google uses to rank pages in the SERPS. But PR plays such a small role.

We recently built the www.tubeltechnologies.com site for one of our newest clients. They had their site down for more than a year while maintaining a 3 GOOGLE PR with nothing but an URL!, because they had several quality incoming links from before, including various governmental agencies and so on. On review you would not believe the hits that a blank page was generating. I don't think that PR should be discounted lightly at all!

Ken

[greeneagle]

Garrett wrote in:
On the Scene at the Search Engine Strategies
Live Updates from Search Engine Strategies

In the article:
"An exclusive Google interview."

An Exclusive Interview. Yesterday, I caught up with Marissa after her presentation. We walked through the hallway together and had a short but exclusive interview as she carried her suitcase outside to catch a taxi to the airport.

I asked, “What should people do if their sites were totally dumped from Google?”

She replied, “If you dropped in rankings, go back and look at who you linked to and who’s linking to you. If any of these people are using spam techniques, they're the reason your site no longer appears on Google.”

“Does this mean that new algorithm somehow measures the ‘neighborhood’ you're linked into more highly?”

Smiling, Marissa told me she couldn’t answer that question, because it’s a direct statement about the new Google algorithm.

We'll take that as a yes. :)
____________________

SEOs using questionable practices such as linking themselves and clients to “Link Farms” are being penalized (and rightfully so)

Already the back-peddling is occurring
Many “Link Farms” are posting disclaimers!
Many SEOs are placing messages on sites of disclaiming nature,
Several are off the Web!
Can they unlink themselves and clients or do they have to take down the Sites all together to avoid litigation?

[janeth]

trading links and link farms are two different things.

The fact that Google will ban a site for using link farms is nothing new.

[bmchild]

I wonder do they penalize you if you link to a link farm or are linked from a link farm? the reason I ask is you really have no control of who links to you. If you think about it, if there is a competitor out there who's looking to get above you in the page rankings, all they would have to do is submit your link to the link farms.

[janeth]

It would be only if you linked to a link farm.

[greeneagle]

So it has absolutely no effect to link a client to a Link Farm either?
Ken

[janeth]

If you link to them then you have a problem if they link to you it is no problem.

[greeneagle]

BUT IT DOES NOT HELP ANY MORE, with the new dance!
So it's a waste of time!
Ken

[janeth]

what does not help?

[greeneagle]

At best, if you are not penalized for having link farms connected to you, it absolutely does no good at all, or many indicators, including the comments made by GOOGLE expressly (in the current forum), and those made on their Webmasters Guideline site are misleading and a complete falacy!
Ken

[janeth]

To start with a link farm is not going to link to you unless you link to them but this is what Google says about people that link to you and it is on there web site


Fiction: A competitor can ruin a site's ranking somehow or have another site removed from Google's index.

Fact: There is almost nothing a competitor can do to harm your ranking or have your site removed from our index. Your rank and your inclusion are dependent on factors under your control as a webmaster, including content choices and site design.

[greeneagle]

The point is: There is absolutely no reason at all to ever engage the services of a "bad neighborhood" ie.. link farm again, coming or going. At best you run the risk of damaging yourself or clients, in the "new dance". I and many other "straight" webmasters that struggle to get themselves and clients "ahead of the game", by the rules appreciate this particular focus in the new alogrithms!

Thanks for your comments,
Ken

[janeth]

There is nothing new there though Google has always said do not link to link farms or bad neighbors.

[Jamie]

[quote="greeneagle"]Garrett wrote
She replied, “If you dropped in rankings, go back and look at who you linked to and who’s linking to you. If any of these people are using spam techniques, they're the reason your site no longer appears on Google.”

If one has 100 plus reciprocal links. What would you suggest as the quickest or best way to do this?
Jamie

[janeth]

Jamie,
I would do nothing and would read around more I thing she was wrong in what she said.

My site was 100% gone for over 200 key words for our home page alone I made some changes none of those changes had to do with links and we are back now

[greeneagle]

If it were my sites that had links from "bad neighborhoods", and I had placed them there, I would contact the webmaster and ask them to remove them ASAP!

If it were my sites that had links from "bad neighborhoods" such as link farms, that were not placed by me, I would contact the webmaster and demand immediate removal and if that didn't work, I would have an attorney specializing in Internet Litigation contact them via letter or what ever was necessary to be unlinked!

Furthermore, I would sure try to find out who placed me there and determine whether I had grounds for legal action!

We cannot possibly give legal advice, but this would be the course of our actions.

Good Luck,
Ken

[janeth]

Google says on there web site another web site can not hurt you.

I will tell anyone you can submit my web site to ffa pages do whatever you want link to it by every bad site you want it does not effect me at all.

As a matter of fact I may get some traffic from the links.

Will I loose my ranking no way.

There is nothing you can do to effect my sites ranking.

I would like to see someone sue me for linking that is really funny.

Someone gets shot in the middle of town and it takes all day for the police to show up. I'm sure they will move right in here for a law suit because my site thought another web site was nice so I linked to it.

[excell]

Janeth, does your country have laws that deal with false advertising and misrepresentation?

[janeth]

If you have a problem with someone or something you can go down to the police station and fill out a report.

Not sure if they will do anything with it but yes you can fill out a report.

But for linking to a web site can you show me where it is against the law in any country so I can see it.

[janeth]

If I see a web site I like and link to it and say this is a good web site can you tell me how that is

false advertising and misrepresentation?

[excell]

I didn't mean to imply that my question had anything to do with links that you may create to another web site from yours, Janeth.

Let me ask you another guestion, - Do you consider that web sites that attempt to attract visitors to their web pages via high rankings in the search engines for services that they do not offer would be guilty of false advertising and misrepresentation?

[janeth]

I'm sorry excell
If your saying if I'm ranked #1 for Brittany Spears and my web site has nothing to do with Brittany Spears is that wrong?

That gets a little tuff because last week I was ranked in the top ten for printers and have nothing to do with them nor did I want to.

I was also ranked in the top ten for steroids and tried for ever to get that fixed.

So those where things that where out of my control but if I on purpose tried to get ranked for web design when I knew my site was about porn yes I think that is wrong.

[excell]

lol.. yes, I could imagine it would be hard to get away from steroids if folks would be linking to you via the business name, not much you could do about that. Printer though.. I think not :)

[janeth]

The printers Google did on there on for no reason it is gone now and not sure why it happened but we got a lot of customers that day for printers

Also we are ranked it may be gone now for custom homes, custom auto like I said I think those are gone now but Google did those things.

[excell]

hmm.. that's food for thought, it must mean they are experimenting with neighbours, theme & meaning a lot more than I would have thought!

Thanks for answering Janeth - your site is a great case study.

[greeneagle]

excell wrote:

"hmm.. that's food for thought, it must mean they are experimenting with neighbours, theme & meaning a lot more than I would have thought!

Thanks for answering Janeth - your site is a great case study."

"a great case study"?
excell - you are short, sweet and to the point, obviously knowledgeable from several perspectives, but you do not have a profile, no website listed, no e-mail contact ----

You don't happen to be a GOOGLE employee do you?
If so, convey my thanks for the new focus on internet spam filtering, to the team!
Ken

[excell]

greeneagle - I sure wouldn't want to be a google employee at this point in time! egad, it's a mess. :)

adding- sorry I didn't see that you where asking me a question in the subject line. I'm no-body special and don't like to put my details in public, because I get too busy to deal with anyone wanting to contact me etc. If you really need to know for any reason just PM me.

[farangui]

My site was added to Googles Bible after two months of being submitted.
Two months later, the site was removed. Why? I don't have a clue. The only thing I know is that there was not much work done to it because I was busy doing other sites (and things) and I stored some pictures on a directory for my father in law who was selling properties on e-bay.
Could that cause my site to be removed?
If anyone knows I do appreciate the advice.

Thanks

[greeneagle]

First - Welcome aboard farangui.

I build client sites in unlinked folders under my main domain before going live at their domain and have for years with no problem in rankings.

If you list your site in your profile, a "www" button will be present when you post making it easier to look at.

You may also try the "Submit your Site for Review" forum, I am sure you will get more than enough advice to help out. Take the advice, make the changes and run withit. As long as you are not committing malor sins like link farms, frames or duplicate content sites, you will most likely be relisted, just check the Scroogle site for your keywords and content phrases.

Ken

Ken

[ronniethedodger]

rlrouse said: PageRank is indeed one of the 100 odd factors that Google uses to rank pages in the SERPS. But PR plays such a small role.

We recently built the www.tubeltechnologies.com site for one of our newest clients. They had their site down for more than a year while maintaining a 3 GOOGLE PR with nothing but an URL!, because they had several quality incoming links from before, including various governmental agencies and so on. On review you would not believe the hits that a blank page was generating. I don't think that PR should be discounted lightly at all!

Ken you are missing the point that rlrouse mentioned after this....but yet you mention the same fact in the same breath. It is the inbound links that will project even a PR3 page over a PR7 in the results.

The quality and textual content of inbound links do far more for higher results, than does the actual PR of the page itself. I have seen this time and time again.

Next in line to quality of the textual link itself is sheer massive quantities of inbound links (regardless of what is in the text). What I mean by massive quantities, is that 800 lb gorilla massive as in 10's of thousands. This will give the page a high PR and project it higher in the results. I can see where this would give the illusion of high PRed pages get higher rankings...but it is only an illusion.

PR is highly..ahem...over rated and I for one am really getting tired of some of the mail that I get from webmasters touting their prowess for a PR6 page when they ask me for a link exchange. It does nothing for me, impresses me little, and is all hogwash.

In fact, I rarely look at how I am doing in the results at any search engine. Why should I care where I land on any given search term, phrase, or keyword....whatever you want to call it. What is the point?

The fact is even if you do or even if you don't, it does not matter. What matters is what is driving people to your site. That result is displayed in your traffic logs, my friends.

Traffic to your site comes from the search engines in large part, but you have no control over how the user is going to enter in a search query. Other factors determine what impels a user to go in search of something specific on any given day, week, or month.

Write your pages from the searchers viewpoint and not from nitpicking a few search terms to be able to show off that you have a top result for "big baby baggy bumpers" at Google. Sheesh who cares.

This is only half the battle any way. You still have to sell them something of some sort. You still have to keep them, and make them want to come back in the future. That is where the real work lies in my opinion, repeat business -- maintaining your client list. You dont need a search engine for that.

Look at your logs. If traffic is going up and you can sustain it, then you have done your job. If it plummets or is non-existant, then go back to the drawing board or find another job.

[janeth]

Hi Ron,

I have seen a couple of your post around but this last one I love I have been saying the same thing.

When it comes to getting free traffic there is nothing that will beat a good link program.

Links are what will get you ranked high in Google and done right links will get you more traffic then Google.

[ronniethedodger]

Hi Ron,

I have seen a couple of your post around but this last one I love I have been saying the same thing.

When it comes to getting free traffic there is nothing that will beat a good link program.

Links are what will get you ranked high in Google and done right links will get you more traffic then Google.

Well thank you Janeth, and the same back atcha !!!

One thing about me is that I do not like to mince words all that often. I do know when to keep my place, but sometimes I just can't contain myself...if you know what I mean. Not to be mean-spirited in any way, but to enlighten just a little more.

Linking is key, and I do all of mine by hand -- micro-management style. I reject roughly 80% of link requests on the whole. Some of these rejections come from (to some extent) pages with high PR to them. I also have been known to accept links from low PRed pages. As you can see, PR does not excite me any way at all.

I can sum it all up in this basic analogy. Think of a link exchange program in the same light as your personal Credit Report from the Big Three agencies. Once you get a ding on any one of them -- it is a hard thing to erase.

Even if you get the ding removed after a painful and exhaustive process, there is some reseller of credit reports out there that will put you right back on that list again.

Nuf said !!!

[greeneagle]

ronniethedodger wrote:

"Ken you are missing the point that rlrouse mentioned after this....but yet you mention the same fact in the same breath. It is the inbound links that will project even a PR3 page over a PR7 in the results.

The quality and textual content of inbound links do far more for higher results, than does the actual PR of the page itself. I have seen this time and time again."
___________

I am not sure I understand the separation of PR from either quality incoming links or content value. It's my understanding that they are two of the heaviest weighted factors in the PR algorithms.

With the changes at GOOGLE, “past experience” with ANY incoming links will be viewed differently in the future.

It also seems that at some point a link value asymptote kicks in or that value vrs. additional links is applied along an logarithmic scale.

I completely agree that a PR3 site with good content and fewer links could generate more traffic than a same topic PR7 site without as voluminous or valuable content --- and this is precisely what GOOGLE is dealing with in these latest changes.

1) It will now be harder to get to PR7 without valuable and voluminous content and sufficient quality links (incoming and outgoing)
2).It will now be much harder for any PR level site to generate traffic by link spoofing and over-optimization.

I think we need to discern between Past, Present and Future Views regarding where GOOGLE is going and has to go!

Ken

[ronniethedodger]

I think we need to discern between Past, Present and Future Views regarding where GOOGLE is going and has to go!


Why?

If what we did in the past, is the same as what we are doing now, and it is the same as what we are going to do in the future ... then why do we need to differentiate between Google's changes?

When you get right down to it...has anything really changed?

Has your traffic suddenly taken a giant hit one way or the other? Put aside for the moment the rantings of the "my two-word phrase disappeard from Google" line which has nothing really to do with what is going at Google anyway....well, it does to some extent...but has the overall change at Google knocked you out of the ring on your keester or knocked your site over the fence with a towering shot?

[greeneagle]

Aren't we talking about a "New Dance", or is this just the latest cyber-myth?

Ken

[janeth]

A quote from greeneagle

"1) It will now be harder to get to PR7 without valuable and voluminous content and sufficient quality links (incoming and outgoing)
2).It will now be much harder for any PR level site to generate traffic by link spoofing and over-optimization."

Google is not going to treat a pr7 site any different then a pr5 site. If your doing something Google does not like they will bane either one.

"I completely agree that a PR3 site with good content and fewer links could generate more traffic than a same topic PR7 site without as voluminous or valuable content --- and this is precisely what GOOGLE is dealing with in these latest changes."

As far as traffic goes the pr means nothing. I can take a pr0 site and get more traffic then a pr8 site.

[greeneagle]

janeth wrote:

"As far as traffic goes the pr means nothing. I can take a pr0 site and get more traffic then a pr8 site."_______

I admit, I am completely stumped! Let's all toss out the GOOGLE PR system or, please help us understand the system and value or lack of, better.

Always looking for more insight,
Thanks,

Ken

[ronniethedodger]

[quote="greeneagleI admit, I am completely stumped! Let's all toss out the GOOGLE PR system or, please help us understand the system and value or lack of, better.
[/quote]

Ignore it...you will sleep better at night. It is like that guy who climbed to the top of the mountain to ask the Old Man "What is the meaning of Life?"

PR stands for Pretty Ratings. And by Google's own admission, the PR reflected on the bar itself is not the actual PR...but only a representation. It is written some where (from Google) as such...I do not remember where I saw that right now.

So with that in mind, what in the hell are we really looking at? And what do they mean by it is only a "representation"?

So now PR stands for Pretty Representation....which is pretty ridiculous when you think about it.

[janeth]

PR is effected by the amount of incoming links to your site.

If these links are coming into your site with no keywords in the link and nothing there but your web site name then you could have a high pr but they would not help you get ranked for any key word.

Then if you had a site that had nothing but pictures with no text or meta tags you would not be ranked for anything other then your www.sitename.com

This would generate no traffic from Google unless people where looking for your site name.

So you could have a pr8 site but Google would not have any idea where to put it.

[greeneagle]

janeth,

Please reference my thread:
Google Goggles, Gargoyles & Link affectivity!
in this group!
I concede there is absolutely no link between GOOGLE PR and links incoming!

Ken

[ronniethedodger]

Yup, come on Janeth...you come over there too. This is a good thread. Lot's of Dr. Suess stuff that you would love to read too. ;-)

[greeneagle]

janeth wrote:
"So you could have a pr8 site but Google would not have any idea where to put it."

Sorry, this is not a real scenario unless you do not have any HTML verbiage on any ranked page! GOOGLE indexes everything you have now ---INCLUDING YOUR UNDERWEAR!

Ken

[ronniethedodger]

janeth wrote:
"So you could have a pr8 site but Google would not have any idea where to put it."

Sorry, this is not a real scenario unless you do not have any HTML verbiage on any ranked page! GOOGLE indexes everything you have now ---INCLUDING YOUR UNDERWEAR!
Ken


I had better put a dresser drawer exclusion in my robots.txt file then...thanks for the heads-up Ken !!! ;-)

[minstrel]

Before this gets out of hand, let me remind everyone that this is a mixed group, genderwise and agewise, so please let's make sure this doesn't degenerate into a locker-room scenario or something you'd be uncomfortable having your young teenager or your mother read.

...maybe I should rephrase that: something most people might be uncomfortable having a young teenager or their mother look at...

[ronniethedodger]

You are right Minstrel. I have removed the slightly more offensive parts from both the quote and my reply. My apologies.

Is the robot exclusion part PG material though? ;-)

[minstrel]

You are right Minstrel. I have removed the slightly more offensive parts from both the quote and my reply. My apologies.

Is the robot exclusion part PG material though? ;-)
Works for me...

[greeneagle]

Let's just repose, but I do want to know what janeth meant:

janeth wrote:
"So you could have a pr8 site but Google would not have any idea where to put it."

I just don't see there being any possibility of that these days since GOOGLE indexes everything in a site. Unless of course you could have a PR8 without any; html, pdf, asp, jsp, hdml, shtml, xml, cfm, doc, xls, ppt, rtf, wks, lwp, or wri.!

Ken

[janeth]

That was my point greeneagle pr has very little to do with it..


It takes all that other stuff.

[marknc]

Our website www.madaboutjewellery.com, up to recently, held the the number one position on Google for a particular keyphrase and was invariably listed on the first page for other keywords and phrases.
Now it appears that this number one position has dropped back to the third page and for other keyphrases we are all but lost.
Can anyone tell me where I might find detailed information as to how the Google algorithm has changed, what these PR numbers are all about, and what I need to do to redress the situation.
For example we have about 40 mini-sites (one-pagers set up to draw targetted traffic) pointing to our shop. We also have a duplicate homepage under the co.uk domain extension. Is this now a no-go area and will it count against us?
These are things I need to know as around 47% of our visitors come from search engines of which 98% are delivered by Google and Yahoo.
Any help very gratefully received.
Mark