Designed a Site 1024x768 Resolution

[mikeh]

If you design a site with a resolution of 1024x768 is there a way to have it show the same way in a 800 x600 resolution? According to the latest stats there is a bout 45% of both using these resolutions.

[matauri]

I find the easiest way is not to design in asbolutes if you can avoid it. i.e - fixed width tables, etc, 200px, 200pt. Use % or ems. Also avoid large images.

It is inevitable that 800x600 will be thing of past soon. I'm surprised at some of the stats that have been given on previous occassions here of its use, because I have never had over 20% using that small a resolution. I do think that now we should be concentrating on the higher resolutions just as much. A senior who has a high resolution screen doesn't want to have to invest in a magnifying glass to read your page. A designer designs for the current & the future. A restorer fixes up the past.

I know I have heard certain 'pros' say that stating what resolution a site is designed for is like saying 'I dont know how to design', however I think this is a little ego puffing on behalf of those that have mastered the craft. If you are having trouble adapting to 800x600 I say by all means put what resolution the site has been designed to.


Cindy

[Shadows_Papa]

I have to disagree on the resolution thing.
It totally depends on your target - demographics.
Most of my viewers use 800x600 and it's a large margin.
For my hobby, a friend tracked viewers to his site for a couple of weeks. It was about 65% 800x600, the rest were mostly higher resolution with an occasional 640x480 tossed in (ouch)
People who tend to hang out in these forums are more "high tech" and sure, will see the higher resolutions in higher concentrations first. People like me seem to see more of the "Joe Average" viewer. They use out of the box solutions, out of the box broswers (Opera is something their rich friends go to on the weekend and Mozilla is a cheap Japanese monster movie)
Please don't count out 800x600 yet. Most things are simply too hard to see at higher resolution. I find that higher than 800x600 and I have to squint to read it, to see the images. I'm 47 years old with average eye sight. I have a 17" flat screen.
Anyway if you design for 800x600, but make the site fluid (use percentages, CSS, etc.), you'll be fine. Do NOT lock things at that high resolution - having to scroll horizontally is something that really ticks people off.

Shadows Papa

[matauri]

Please don't count out 800x600 yet. Most things are simply too hard to see at higher resolution. I find that higher than 800x600 and I have to squint to read it, to see the images. I'm 47 years old with average eye sight. I have a 17" flat screen.

But higher resolutions there 'are', and many of them. It has only been recently that I started using % & ems in font size to accomodate for 800x600 up to higher resolutions. Most of the time I run on 1280 x 1024, (but I design to the lower ones obviously) and I know it annoys the bejeevers out of me that I open a page to have chicken scratchings & barely visable images on a page because the owner has designed to exclusively to 800 x 600 in fixed attributes. And lets face it, how many sites on the net are made by designers who use the 'right' attributes? Most still use pt, px, etc when designing, so if they have designed to 800x600, someone viewing on 1280x1024 is disadvantaged. 8pt on a 800x600 may look good, but on 1280x1024 its on with the glasses.

Also, I have been doing some reading up on various stats with 800x600 users (on high traffic sites), and they still fall below the 50% of users mark, and it seems the good majority of them are using Win98 & older, and IE5 or older. So it seems that this resolution is still being mainly used by older machines, so users within the next couple of years will be upgrading, and so too will the res. most commonly used be increased. So in a couple of years people who design to fixed attributes for a 800x600 will all be redoing their pages.

The way I see it, you can either:

1. Use %, ems & smaller images

OR...

2. Use fixed attributes & know that you are going to disadvantage either the smaller resolution users or the higher resolution users, and decide if you would rather a 800x600 user (or a user that runs their windows minimized) have to scroll to read a page or a 1280x1024 have trouble reading your page.... and decide which you think is more viable.

Ultimately the first choice would be the route to take. But then, ultimately everyone who advertizes that they are designers or anyone who publishes to the net would know it too. But they dont. I didn't until not long ago & now have mega pages to change.

There are soo many variables to take into account now when designing, that only the 'professionals' (designers taking this all into account), or site builders who have educated themselves, are going to be able to accomodate the majority.

Thats what these forums are for, to share this knowledge, as I had it shared with me. Which brings me back to conversations I have had on other forum threads..... If someone is going to advertize that they are a designer, they SHOULD know at least HTML code & not be relying on page builder programs. That way they can utelise advice given to them better.



Cindy

[Narasinha]

Also, I have been doing some reading up on various stats with 800x600 users (on high traffic sites), and they still fall below the 50% of users mark, and it seems the good majority of them are using Win98 & older, and IE5 or older. So it seems that this resolution is still being mainly used by older machines, so users within the next couple of years will be upgrading, and so too will the res. most commonly used be increased. So in a couple of years people who design to fixed attributes for a 800x600 will all be redoing their pages.

For my site stats I find 800x600 and 1024x768 running very close. These two resolutions far outnumber the others, from 560x420 (WebTV) to 1600x1200. Keep the bit-depth in mind too. Most of us run in 32-bit color, but I find over 30% of my visitors using 16-bit color.

Over 40% of visits to my site come from WinXP systems, with about 27% still using Win98 (as I am). Yes, I think as these systems are replaced we will see 1024x768 32-bit leading the pack.

I think part of the problem is that computer users who are not technically savvy never change their screen settings. They leave it set where it was when they got the PC. They are also the users who wouldn't think to use anything other than Internet Explorer for browsing and Outlook Express for email because that's what came with the computer.

I still have to wonder about those 127 hits at 8-bit color, and the 5 hits at 1-bit.

[matauri]

I still have to wonder about those 127 hits at 8-bit color, and the 5 hits at 1-bit.

Have had a couple at 8-bit, like about 4 ! But the 1-bit....hmmmmmm.....never seen one .


I think part of the problem is that computer users who are not technically savvy never change their screen settings. They leave it set where it was when they got the PC. They are also the users who wouldn't think to use anything other than Internet Explorer for browsing and Outlook Express for email because that's what came with the computer.

And thats a pretty BIG proportion of the Internet users too.

I still stand by "Design to the masses..Cater to the minority" :-)


Cindy

[mikmik]

mikeh asked
If you design a site with a resolution of 1024x768 is there a way to have it show the same way in a 800 x600 resolution? According to the latest stats there is a bout 45% of both using these resolutions.


Two solutions - Use some script to detect screen resolution and either a) redirect to a second page (SEO??) or b) call a second external CSS with all dimensions adjusted accordingly

ALSO: I always use xxsmall, xsmall, ....normal...xxlarge to size text in CSS and that way the viewers can adjust thier text size!! Hold down the 'Ctrl' on keyboard and roll your mouse button. I consider it as important, if not more important, as any single other design consideration.(bgcolor incl., mat [o: lol)

I also hesitate about making predictions on the future habits etc. of internet users. Dangerous territory, that. It is more than just a technology issue, there are financial questions and eyesight health, how many can afford better graphics (moniter, adapter - some refresh rates cause headaches and you need to drive 1024 at 85Hz optimal) and how many people will use the 'net who are older , eyestrain (from surfing to much lol).

It is way to easy to have a button on page that let's the user PICK how they like to view it.

One more, why are so many sites, BIG site, going to 555px fixed widths if it is dying?

[mikeh]

First, thank you all for your input. Now, I have a good input as to what to do. It just looks like a need to do some minor adjustments which I did not take into account.

[carju1]

I have been doing some reading up on various stats with 800x600 users (on high traffic sites), and they still fall below the 50% of users mark, and it seems the good majority of them are using Win98 & older, and IE5 or older. So it seems that this resolution is still being mainly used by older machines, so users within the next couple of years will be upgrading, and so too will the res. most commonly used be increased.

OK so I did a check on operating system figures for one site I manage covering motor racing.

My latest stats show for MS OS's:
***Windows 98 - 238,129
***Windows 2000 - 155,670
***Windows 95 - 17,734
***Windows XP - 320,323
***Unknown Windows - 899
***Windows ME - 57,890
***Windows NT - 28,367

So thats 39% for XP - 31% for WIN98 or older.

I also have the figures for January 2003.
Windows 98 - 1,291,231
Windows XP - 903,848
Windows 2000 - 664,010
Windows ME - 271,603
Windows NT - 175,307
Windows 95 - 136,364
Unknown Windows - 4,589

So thats 26% for XP - 41% for WIN98 or older.

That's an increase in one year of 13% for XP and a decerase of 10% for 98/95

Interstingly though when I do the sums for browser resolution (OK I have to do it across all browsers not just Win OS's)

I get 800x600 dropping from 59% to 53% and 1024x768 increasing from 36% to 41%

That to me means that only half the people who have upgraded OS have up'ed their screen resolution. Now this could be simple because of monitor size (maybe they upgraded OS but not hardware). I wouldn't count out 800x600 for at least another 2 years and I'm afraid my princlpe is design for the lowest major denominator and until 800x600 drops below 33% I'm not going to build specifically for anything larger.

Unless of course anyone is able to get site stats showing monitor size :)

Julian

[Shadows_Papa]

Ah - let's please disconnect OS from display resolution.
That appears to be a common mistake. Resolution has nothing to do with OS, never has. I know folks running Win95 at resolutions of 1024x768 and HIGHER, and people running W2K and XP at 800x600. The resolution is a matter of visual preference - and what's easier to read, not the OS you have.
If I changed to the OS of the future, yet unreleased, I'd still stick with 800x600 because anything higher is simply and plainly harder to read. Period. I've used this resolution since my video was able to support it and have changed OS's many times over the years, with a mix of W98, NT, W2K client and server, XP Home and Professional running on several computers - all set to 800x600. What does the OS have to do with how easy or hard higher resolutions are to read?
I used to work in a place where computers were set to a standard of 1024x768 and the windows background color was set. When a user changed it, it was detected and tech support went over and put it back. The lady won out - seems that the higher resolution hurt her eyes and she went to a lawyer...... she won. They had to allow users to change to whatever resolution they wanted and the color combination they wanted.
Which brings me to - you can put what you want on your site - but I'll view it how _I_ want, and if you prevent that, I won't be back. You control your content, I'll control how my computer shows it to me.

Now, on another topic...... I do use px for font and other sizes. It takes hours and hours to convert and make things "look correct". Different browsers display things differently - and that can totally change column length, word-wrap, etc.
If there is a good tutorial on how to change that, I'd like to see it.

Shadows Papa

[jdiben]

Resolution has nothing to do with OS, never has.

I disagree. While anyone can change their resolution no matter what OS they are using not everyone knows how to do it. Most of the computer illiterate people I know have their resolution set to 800x600 because that is how it was set by default when the OS was installed and they either don't know how to change it or they are not comfortable changing the settings. When we hire new employees at my company I am the one that has to set up their computer. While I am setting the computers up I always change the resolution to 1024x768. Very few people change it back. The majority of the employees using 800x600 are the ones that are using a computer that was set at 800x600 when they got it.

[Shadows_Papa]

Hmmm - must be a matter of where you work and who works there. The last two companies I worked for (and I've been doing this sort of thing since about '85 as network administrator and various other roles) they not only did change it, they created hacks that put the tabs back, bypassing security, so they could change it. We used images that has the tabs removed in an attempt to keep everything standard. Big mistake in some areas - don't mess with their colors and resolution, they will find a way...........

[httpman]

Hmm Hmm

Not sure above 2 posts answer to the question ?..

I'd like to be able to do websites that display as well in 1024 x 768 as they do in 800 x 600, or the opposite, but seems impossible.

I stopped using % tables 3 years ago. With % tables, managing the right appearance of the pages on the visitors' browser is a nightmare : unless you use simple text pages, it's impossible to nicely display anything with consistence - just look at what your % pages look like in 1600 x 1200 pts, and tell me : would you like your visitors to see that ?

And if the answer is yes : look at them in 800 x 600. Would you like your visitors to see that ? If yes again, and your pages are not just text + left or right aligned images, give the adress.

Hence I went back to fixed width pages, center aligned using this so "deprecated" <table> tag.

From my point of vue, the only good way for doing fullscreen pages is to create a Flash page, with vectors only and an "auto-resize" on. It shall automatically resize to the visitors' screen resolution, while still displaying as you designed it. Just take a quick look at http://www.eastofparis.fr : whatever is the size of the window, the result is perfect (change it by dragging the lower right corner of the window, and see the result)... Only the "entrer" button on the low right-bottom is an image, and keeps the same size.

Halas ! Today no one browser knows how to do that, so fixed size centered on the screen seems to be the less-bad solution !...

(Opera can "zoom" a page the same way, but it doesn't automatically resize the page to fit within the resolution... What a waste !)


Jean-Pierre

[cyanide]

I stopped using % tables 3 years ago. With % tables, managing the right appearance of the pages on the visitors' browser is a nightmare : unless you use simple text pages, it's impossible to nicely display anything with consistence - just look at what your % pages look like in 1600 x 1200 pts, and tell me : would you like your visitors to see that ?
In my humble opinion this is the best answer; well, for me anyway.
If you are using simple text and background colours, you can easily do percentage and have a pretty consistent look across oll resolution/monitor sizes.

However with a little more intricate designs requiring pictures and images which are fixed-widths, it's pretty much mandatory to have a fixed-width outer table. A percentage table would just stretch it out and all but destroy the look and design.

On a 1024x768 resolution, having that extra white-space around the sides really doesn't bother me whatsoever, because the design of the site will look exactly the same.

[httpman]

On a 1024x768 resolution, having that extra white-space around the sides really doesn't bother me whatsoever, because the design of the site will look exactly the same.

I agree, and this should be the key point for newbies reading that post. As long as designs look the same, the white - or blue or any other color - space around shouldn't hurt, and it didn't hurt any of my clients up to now. Much better than %.

Cyanide is an agressive name, I should find a better one than "httpman". What about "spiceman", or "spaceman" or smthg more exotic like, "matahaurea" ?

JP

[Shadows_Papa]

>>it's impossible to nicely display anything with consistence - just look at what your % pages look like in 1600 x 1200 pts, and tell me : would you like your visitors to see that ? <<

Trust me - no one that would visit my sites on purpose would ever use a resolution like that. I won't care at all about that one. So few people I'd even know would run that high, I don't worry about it. The majority by far that visit my sites still run 800x600. Sure, that WILL change - one day it will. But until then, it's all I can do to keep up with CONTENT and product on the pages. When I start to see my type of visitor moving up in resolutions, I'll start reworking all my pages. For now, it is taking about 1 to 2 days just to convert each page to CSS and away from tables and font size tags.

I suspect I should start to think about em's instead of px, but I just started moving to px from <font> and PT sizing, to I'm not too anxious.......

Shadows Papa
www.thequiltjunction.com -> opinions?
www.oldengine.org/members/billd -> just for fun.

[httpman]

I suspect I should start to think about em's instead of px, but I just started moving to px from <font> and PT sizing, to I'm not too anxious

Of course this is the right way to think (from my point of vue). We have to evolve each day, or die.

Each time I start a new website, means each 2 to 3 months, I try to put in all what I have learned from previous sites, like : "I have some MS-Word files that I would like people to download when they click on, instead of opening a "MS-Word" window from the browser..."

Easy to achieve by now, while 6 months ago I would have said : can't do anything around, this is an issue coming from Windows, nothing to deal with internet... Wrong : take a look at http://wsabstract.com/howto/htaccess.shtml if you want to manage your website by 100% !!!

We always have to learn within that business, or if one day we wake up and say : the're crazy, I know and they don't - well that day, could be the end !

JP