View Full Version : Optimizing For New MSN Search
Maximilian
11-15-2004, 05:45 AM
Note: If you do not have something like the following or similar W3C validation at top of your html page code, you may rank lower in the new MSN Search Engine:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
MSN now has published a list of guidelines for webmasters and SEOs on their site. While they read as simple SEO common sense, they also give a small window into how MSNBot views websites.
The following is copied directly from MSN's guidelines along with short comments for SEOs.
Technical Recommendations For Your Web Site[/b]
All Sites Should Be W3c Validated.
Use only well-formed HTML code in your pages. Ensure that all tags are closed, and that all links are functioning properly. If your site contains broken links, MSNBot may not be able to index your site effectively, and users may not be able to reach all of your pages. For more information about correct HTML syntax, see the HTML 4.01 Specification:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
Moving Hosts And Urls Shouldn't Damage Rankings. If you move your page, use the appropriate HTTP redirection code to indicate whether the move is permanent or temporary.
MSNBot Follows Common Exclude Tags.
Make sure MSNBot is allowed to crawl your site, and is not on your list of Web crawlers prohibited from indexing your site. Use a robots.txt file or Robots Meta tags to control how MSNBot and other Web crawlers index your site. Using a robots.txt file will tell Web crawlers which files and folders on your site it is not allowed to crawl. For more information, see the MSNBot FAQ:
http://search.msn.com/webmasters/msnbot.aspx
Url Syntax Carries Some Weight.
Whenever possible, use URLs that are simple and easy to read.
Content Guidelines For Your Web Site
Page Size Matters. Keep It Simple, One Topic Per Page.Limit all pages to a reasonable size. An HTML page with no pictures should be under 150 KB. MSN Search recommends discussing one topic per page. Use links to take users to related topics.
Links Matter And Msnbot Relies Heavily On Continuity With Url Paths.To ensure your pages are easy to link to from other sites, keep your URLs simple and static. Complicated URLs, or URLs that change often, are difficult to use as link destinations. A persistent URL is easier for users to find and remember, and makes it a more likely link destination from other sites.
Items And Techniques Discouraged By MSN Search
MSNBot recognizes the following items and techniques as sp@m, an inappropriate use of the index. Use of these items and techniques may affect how your site is ranked within MSN Search, and may result in the removal of your page or site from the MSN Search index.
Content Matters, As Does Keyword Density. Sp@m Will Be Noted And Dealt With, Otherwise They Would Be Less Likely To Make The Implied Threat.
Loading pages with irrelevant words in an attempt to increase a page's keyword density. This includes stuffing alt tags that users are unlikely to view.
Easy Enough To Understand. Using hidden text or links. You should use only text and links that are visible to users.
Links Matter. As an Algorithmic Spider, Msnbot Has Taken A Lesson From Pagerank. Following Links Leads To Considering The Number Of Links Followed As A Factor In Rankings.
Using techniques to artificially increase the number of links to your page, such as link farms.
greeneagle
11-15-2004, 05:29 PM
Max
When I check the Technical Guidelines on beta.msn.search.com, I don't see a specifis recommendation to W3C validate.
Did they drop it for the new version?
Sure it is an inferrence but they no longer specifically recommend to W3C validate or do they have the W3C link.
Ken
Maximilian
11-16-2004, 07:54 AM
Sure it is an inferrence but they no longer specifically recommend to W3C validate or do they have the W3C link.
Ken
Howdy Ken,
They simply offer the link - due to W3C validation being so broad & varied in specification needs from site to site they could not encompass every aspect without quoting the entire guidelines.
Cheers!
Max
greeneagle
11-16-2004, 08:46 AM
Maximum-Beauty:
:The following is copied directly from MSN's guidelines along with short comments for SEOs.
MSN Search wrote:
Technical Recommendations For Your Web Site
"All Sites Should Be W3c Validated.
Use only well-formed HTML code in your pages. Ensure that all tags are closed, and that all links are functioning properly. If your site contains broken links, MSNBot may not be able to index your site effectively, and users may not be able to reach all of your pages. For more information about correct HTML syntax, see the HTML 4.01 Specification:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/"
_______________
What I am saying Max is, that in the Beta Search Technical Guidelines (http://beta.search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx?t=SEARCH_WEBMASTER_REF_Guidelinesfo rOptimizingSite.htm#A) here is what I get verbatim:
"Technical recommendations for your website
Use only well-formed HTML code in your pages. Ensure that all tags are closed, and that all links function properly. If your site contains broken links, MSNBot may not be able to index your site effectively, and people may not be able to reach all of your pages.
If you move a page, set up the page's original URL to direct people to the new page, and tell them whether the move is permanent or temporary.
Make sure MSNBot is allowed to crawl your site, and is not on your list of web crawlers that are prohibited from indexing your site.
Use a robots.txt file or meta tags to control how MSNBot and other web crawlers index your site. The robots.txt file tells web crawlers which files and folders it is not allowed to crawl. The Web Robots Pages provide detailed information on the robots.txt Robots Exclusion standard. This site may be available in English only.
Keep your URLs simple and static. Complicated or frequently changed URLs are difficult to use as link destinations. For example, the URL www.example.com/mypage is easier for MSNBot to crawl and for people to type than a long URL with multiple extensions. Also, a URL that doesn't change is easier for people to remember, which makes it a more likely link destination from other sites."
_____
Nothing about W3C Validation at all! Many of us have speculated on the intrinsic value of W3C validation in different threads, and I would have loved to have seen it there. If you are getting something differrent off another server... Maybe the rules are not all ironed out yet.
Ken
webmasterjunkie
11-16-2004, 09:13 AM
Thanks Maximum,
Very good point about validation. With the latest site I designed I did my very best to make sure it wa validated. A lot of the pages are compliant.
This is something that I think webmasters should focus on anyway.
Hello Max,
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
I have noticed this is been placed in all my sites via source code but not in original. I dont care one way or another. I am now in the process of commiting my sites to one search engine. I dont know about the rest of you but it is just my humble opinion that Microsoft/MSN will somehow/someway prevail in the war of the search engines. It may take some time but no matter how you slice the cake Microsoft is and always will be bigger than google as entire entity's with Bill including these new features in SP2 for Xp and future releases of OS's containing this search feature ect. Is it just me or is the new SP blocking google ads? I believe that this will be MSN's next pet project to further derail google, MSense for publishers. haha
mushroom
11-16-2004, 02:28 PM
My-my-my an SE asking you to do W3c Validation.
When I have yet to see a SE page that will pass W3c Validation including MSN's.
Don't get me wrong I am fully in favor of W3c Validation.
greeneagle
11-16-2004, 02:58 PM
Are you guys reading this thread? I don't get the W3C validation statements when I visit the beta.msn.search.com site, as I stated above!
Sure I would like it!
Are we all seeing something different here?
I posted the link above!
Here it is again:
Beta Search Technical Guidelines (http://beta.search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx?t=SEARCH_WEBMASTER_REF_Guidelinesfo rOptimizingSite.htm#A)
Ken
Maximilian
11-16-2004, 03:47 PM
Are you guys reading this thread? I don't get the W3C validation statements when I visit the beta.msn.search.com site, as I stated above!
Sure I would like it!
Are we all seeing something different here?
I posted the link above!
Here it is again:
Beta Search Technical Guidelines (http://beta.search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx?t=SEARCH_WEBMASTER_REF_Guidelinesfo rOptimizingSite.htm#A)
Ken
LOL - Ken!
Settle down buddy. We're just splitting a blade of grass conconcerning W3C validation - websites should do it (regardless). Put this in your pipe & puff (smiling):
MSN Search Launches By Jim Hedger
http://news.stepforth.com/2004-news/Nov10-04.html
Cheers!
Max
bhartzer
11-16-2004, 04:30 PM
If you do not have something like the following or similar W3C validation at top of your html page code, you may rank lower in the new MSN Search Engine
There's absolutely no proof to the statement that one's page may rank lower in the MSN search engine because of the lack of the specification of a doctype.
I've actually seen cases where specifying a doctype actually hurt a page's rankings, so I would be very careful when making such statements.
Maximilian
11-16-2004, 05:12 PM
I've actually seen cases where specifying a doctype actually hurt a page's rankings, so I would be very careful when making such statements.
I said (notice the word "may":
If you do not have something like the following or similar W3C validation at top of your html page code, you may rank lower in the new MSN Search Engine
I then followed the above remark with a quote from:
MSN Search Launches By Jim Hedger
http://news.stepforth.com/2004-news/Nov10-04.html
You could have said - "If one does not follow the W3C guideline specifications exactly, such W3C tags could hurt your SERPs". This would have been a better statement by you. You should be careful what you say - you could mislead people.
Here are the "exact" MSN Search guidelines for webmasters concerning W3C:
http://search.msn.com.sg/webmasters/guidelines.aspx
So should MSN be careful when making such statements??? If so, send them off an e-mail telling them they could hurt websites.
greeneagle
11-16-2004, 05:31 PM
Max we did this one already - Believe me I am convinced and have issued the mandate that everything that we (Mountain Eagle Marketing) produce will be W3C validated or close. You know it does depend on the client to some extent! If for nothing else Knowledge of best practices and browser compatability without checking and...
Believe my "gun is in the holster" and "my panties are not in a wad", but the fact remains that my reference does not align with what you quoted, and believe me I wish it did.
Could you provide a link where you found that?
Ken
Maximilian
11-16-2004, 05:38 PM
Could you provide a link where you found that?
Hi Ken,
I PMed the article URL to you & posted it above where it quotes the MSN Beta Search SEO suggestions. Please keep your gun in its holster & do not shoot the messenger - mainly me. (smiling)
Cheers!
Max
greeneagle
11-16-2004, 05:43 PM
Max,
Somehow, I honestly did not rcv the PM with that link, so...
I'll "show you mine again":
Beta Search Technical Guidelines (http://beta.search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx?t=SEARCH_WEBMASTER_REF_Guidelinesfo rOptimizingSite.htm#A)
Show me yours. Haven't you ever played this game? I got in trouble for it all the time when I was a kid!
Ken
Maximilian
11-16-2004, 05:45 PM
Max,
Somehow, I honestly did not rcv the PM with that link, so...
Ken,
Here it is for the final time, my friend -
The following is copied directly from MSN's guidelines with short comments for SEOs.
Technical Recommendations For Your Web Site
All Sites Should Be W3c Validated.
Use only well-formed HTML code in your pages. Ensure that all tags are closed, and that all links are functioning properly. If your site contains broken links, MSNBot may not be able to index your site effectively, and users may not be able to reach all of your pages. For more information about correct HTML syntax, see the HTML 4.01 Specification.
MSN Search Launches By Jim Hedger
http://news.stepforth.com/2004-news/Nov10-04.html
Here are the "exact" MSN Search guidelines for webmasters concerning W3C:
http://search.msn.com.sg/webmasters/guidelines.aspx
Cheers!
Max
greeneagle
11-16-2004, 07:13 PM
Max,
Maybe we are on different servers. I just can't see anywhere that they recommend W3C validation on the link you have provided nor the Beta recommendation link I have provided. Is the info really different? Are they changing it one way or the other?
I could almost swear I also searched MSN Guidelines before when looking for ammo, promoting W3C validation, and didn't see it then there either.
Is everyone else seeing the recommendation to W3C validate also?
Ken
sfowler
11-17-2004, 02:19 AM
Yes, I can see it from here, but I will check again later today, perhaps they are updating it to the new version.
MathsIsFun
11-17-2004, 04:45 AM
OK - let me keep things going by asking a question - relating to "valid" html.
Do you see any benefit in going through the html and putting that little "/" at the end of single tags such as img and br.
In other words, is
fred.jpg better than
fred.jpg
I mean, I will spend hours and hours doing this if it will help.
(Ducking head, expecting deluge)
bhartzer
11-17-2004, 11:04 AM
Do you see any benefit in going through the html and putting that little "/" at the end of single tags such as img and br.
No benefit. There is absolutely no SEO/ranking benefit from doing that.
jclark16
12-09-2004, 10:38 AM
There is nothing about W3c on that url you gave.
Technical recommendations for your Web site
• Use only well-formed HTML code in your pages. Ensure that all tags are closed, and that all links are functioning properly. If your site contains broken links, MSNBot may not be able to index your site effectively, and users may not be able to reach all of your pages. For more information about correct HTML syntax, see the HTML 4.01 Specification.
• If you move your page, use the appropriate HTTP redirection code to indicate whether the move is permanent or temporary.
• Make sure MSNBot is allowed to crawl your site, and is not on your list of Web crawlers prohibited from indexing your site.
• Use a robots.txt file or Robots Meta tags to control how MSNBot and other Web crawlers index your site. Using a robots.txt file will tell Web crawlers which files and folders on your site it is not allowed to crawl. For more information, see the MSNBot FAQ.
• Whenever possible, use URLs that are simple and easy to read.
I never use validation and in the msn beta im #1 for all my keywords, some I got the top 4 spots. Im 1st page on google for all but one keyword.