I Can't Edit My Posts [Archive]

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 10:13 AM

Mispellings are not the only reason to edit. Many of us find ourselves challenged in engagement and may want to modify a view before it has ever been respnded to for reader clarification.

This has been important to me in the past and without that capability, I will be much more hesitant posting in the future.

I don't know of another forum that grants edit capabilities at different levels.

Why not just make multiple post deletes, say more than 5-10 or more a violation punishable by being banned.

There is no reason to punish everyone because of one member's action!

Why isn't it that simple?

Ken

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 10:14 AM

Sorry about that I meant "responded" there, wish I could have edited the mistake before you read it.

Ken

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 10:19 AM

See what happens whe you get engaged in a "heated" topic that invokes passion:

I screwed up this statement too:

"Why not just make multiple post deletes, say more than 5-10 or more a violation punishable by being banned."

Let me correct it:

"Why not just make multiple post deletes a violation punishable by being banned.

Ken

mike

10-13-2004, 10:26 AM

I isn't that simple for a number of reasons. First, to use the example of mass post deletion I wouldn't necessarily know such a deletion was happening until it was already done. At that point, there's nothing to be done.

Second, there is really no need to worry about this. The edit ability will be back in the next day or two and you'll meet the requirements to have it. The ability to edit posts is going to be reserved for those members that can be trusted with that ability. Plain and simple. It would actually be just dumb bad policy to leave the forum vulnerable to something as damaging as a mass delete. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

I have been a member of forums from major companies that instituted this same type of policy, we are certainly not the first.

mike

10-13-2004, 10:30 AM

And as for banning as a solution, that wouldn't bring back any of the content erased. Sure you can ban, but I'm still left with a couple hundred thousand links pointing to a deleted post... Banning doesn't address the problem, it's only a reaction to the problem.

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 10:30 AM

The point being:

The contributors you want are going to abide by your agreement. If not you don't need them anyway.

That is not deterrent enough?

Ken

mike

10-13-2004, 10:34 AM

No, it isn't.

Again, banning people that do it, doesn't keep me from looking like a fool when a WebProNews has been emailed to 800,000 people with a link to a post that they have edited and replaced with a nursery rhyme.

mike

10-13-2004, 10:36 AM

The requirements to have edit ability aren't going to be super tough, most people will meet them. Those that abuse, will lose edit abiltity.

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 10:41 AM

Admittedly, that is a difficult scenario, but I hope you see the value of this tool for strong contributors that want to clarify positions on second thought and/or self review. I simply could not function here without it.

Ken

mike

10-13-2004, 10:46 AM

It isn't being done away with, just having some level of qualification and control added.

I have all my criteria pretty well finalized, now it's just a matter of some MySQL surgery and this will be all fixed up. I hope to have it done today, but it should be no later than tomorrow with Friday being the absolute latest (in case the surgery goes awry).

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 11:07 AM

Mike,
I hope you didn't mind the "devil's advocate. I hope Mr. "Beauty" gets it. But then again, maybe no one knew the mail list was 800K.

Thanks,
Ken (greeneagle)

jdiben

10-13-2004, 11:17 AM

matauri

10-13-2004, 11:19 AM

Personally I am surprised that the Mods didnt kick up about the edit button being removed. In times of heated debate the ability to ask a member nicely to edit their post quite often avoided a full out war of words. All the Admin contact variations that are supplied are nothing, compared with being there at the time caretaking 'your' boards and being able to ask members to control their arguements. Very often these flares up always happen when the Mod of the forum isnt available, and Admin are unavailable.

But then, I suppose you would have to know the history of the forum disputes to take that into account.

While you bring up a valid point about one idiot, and the possiblity of a newsletter item pointing to a thread that contains a nursery rhyme. As a reader, I would much rather read a nursery rhyme, that a barrage of abuse.

Different strokes for different folks. :)

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 11:30 AM

OOPs, I "fat-fingered" the the "w" in "now" and hit the "e" without noticing!

LMAO
Ken

mike

10-13-2004, 11:40 AM

I edit probably 50% of my posts after I hit submit. If I couldn't edit my posts I would have stopped participating here long before my 200th post.

I think you should at least allow members with <200 posts to edit their posts for 60 minutes after they have posted it or until someone replies. Most of the editing I do is within a few minutes of posting. For some reason I can't see my mistakes with the preview button.

Joe

I would liked to have added a simple time restraint. Unfortunately that isn't an option the phpBB software affords me. If I could impose a 60 minute window on the edit, I would have done that and not gone down the qualification road.

speed

10-13-2004, 12:11 PM

Mike I already find it annoying enough having to explicitly ask to watch for replies to my posts, if you remove or limit the ability to edit that's insane!

I edit a lot of my posts because of a typo, which in the case of a CSS fix can make the information I'm posting incorrect.

From the perspective of when I was a newbie, without the security of the edit function I would only ever have made one post a moved on.

The upside is my post count would have rocketed up, as I had to make posts to correct posts. Oh wait, then would I'd be able to edit again!

Anyway that's my feelings and I'll see what happens. Now I'm off to another forum until the edit function comes back assuming that I'm eligible!

Clicken

10-13-2004, 12:13 PM

Mike,

It sounds like it was possible to edit the post of others which I thought only MODs could do.

Mods had earned the priviledge to edit the post of others by building a good posting history.

Why must one earn trust to be able to edit their own post?:

Is there a public notice which list banned offenders and an explanation of offense?

Even though I have earned editing priviledge under the new guidelines I will still have to deal with double+ posting by those who would have edited if they only could have.

As silly as all this seems it is more than just an inconvenience. It reflects the standards of the administration.

I truly hope this is just a tempoary thing that we can all laugh about later!

It is hard to imagine that a new poster will stick around if they have to look silly for 200 post.

But I guess with double+ posting they will get through 'INITIATION' in no time!

I might understand the need to 'temporarily halt' editing to iron out specific problems.

I do not understand implementing a new procedure for editing 'rights'.

carju1

10-13-2004, 12:17 PM

Mike,

Ignoring the global aspect of this decission (Umm better get my spelling right as Mods can't edit their own posts either). OH I can again now so I can delete the next post :)

Where I worry is, as Paul said, in the technical posts where people are offering coding advice. A typo in those and the post is worse that worthless, if new members can't edit their posts they are not going to bother posting!

Julian

carju1

10-13-2004, 12:21 PM

so can now edit but not delete my posts oh well

Julian

jdiben

10-13-2004, 12:50 PM

Why must one earn trust to be able to edit their own post?:

I felt the same way but then I started looking around for the abuse and one member stood out among everyone else. This member has edited almost 25 of his posts by deleting the posts content and replacing it with "self edited". These were posts that had been replied to and shouldn't have been edited to the point where they were basically deleted.

This member will eventually have his edit button back and probably continue this behavior. The current solution is flawed but I have to take the admins side that something had to be done. I hope that this is a temporary solution while a better one is developed.

Joe

Clicken

10-13-2004, 02:10 PM

jdiben said...

These were posts that had been replied to and shouldn't have been edited to the point where they were basically deleted.

To me, it seems that the quality of the post is a reflection of the poster. Knowing this, Bad posting speaks for it's self and doesn't reguire admin interferance to establish that fact.

If a poster, reguardless of replies to the thread, chooses to 'retract' and looks insane, unstable, or silly doing it then it only reflects the poster. Which gives the rest of us a basis for interpreting the character of the poster.

If I am a bad speller... I will be precieved as one. If I am abusive I will be preceived as such.

There have been times I thought of retracting a post... maybe changing it all together.

I can understand that would cause confusion and perhaps make it difficult to prove/settle and arguement concerning who said what, especially if the post was/is slanerous or not backed by facts.

The paper publications do not substantiate (to; make real or actual) the possibility of retrieving old print for the convenience of retraction.

I believe there should be time to edit your post before it has been 'published/saved/unretrievable'.

However, I still do not think members will hang around if no one cleans up the trash!

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 03:50 PM

Clicken

Amen!

There is something to be said for power of self-governence here, or for a close community core of any kind. At least that's how it used to be. We would notify the admins of spam and other issues right away etc... yes, even PMs were used properly!

I don't want to be a "stick in the mud" (archaic metaphor, I know) but, many have come and gone for different reasons.

Ken

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 04:03 PM

On the lighter side:

I sure hope these postings don't draw political lines anywhere!

We all have the same goals in mind, anyway.

With that thought in mind, and I have never seen this done before:

I want to nominate Clicken for MVP. She continually offers good comentary and has an excellent interesting and informative writing style, not to forget other minor details like focused topic discussions, timely information etc...

"Hat's Off" from greeneagle!

Love reading your posts.

Ken

Clicken

10-13-2004, 04:14 PM

Thanks greeneagle,

If I ramble too much, just leave a link for me to follow... that should silence me for a short while.

I wanted to clarify...However, I still do not think members will hang around if no one cleans up the trash!

If I make a mess of my post, I would be happy to clean up my own mess.

If I post something that is not considered to be appropriate, I would expect fellow posters to enlighten me with rebutes. I would also expect the publisher to exercise the right to decline publishing. When works are submitted for publication they are then property of the publisher who can throw it away if he chooses.

The publisher of the post decides the guidelines for post that are allowed to be published/saved/retrievable.

Due to the human factor involved with the determining of what is /isn't acceptable the the poster must recognize and acowledge that the post contained here-in once submitted are the property of the publisher.

If you do not like your publisher, you may choose to find another.

If the publisher doesn't like the post, it may choose not to use it.

All I ask is that there isn't an 'Initiation' for newbies and they will be able to clean up their own messes. (at least given the chance to.)

mike

10-13-2004, 04:45 PM

Sorry, not gonna be able to do that. I have to have some baseline method for deciding on the fly who should be able to edit and who should not.

I can't do a timed window as suggested (I'd prefer it too).

Here's how it's going to work.

If you have 200 posts AND you've met the time constraint (which is roughly a week) you will automatically be granted editing abilities.

Of course exceptions can and will be made. If you don't have 200 posts and editing is a big deal to you, send me and email or PM and we'll most likely be able to work something out.

If you meet the 200+ requirement, have been around for a while, and still don't have the ability to edit, you may have some mistakes in the past and ended up on my 'EXCEPT_FOR_THESE_PEOPLE' list.

Mods are automatically granted the ability to edit regardless of time or post counts.

This is how its SUPPOSED to work and the query should be finished within the next few minutes. If (ahem, I mean WHEN) it works, I'll post the guidelines in a sticky.

matauri

10-13-2004, 04:58 PM

And why would a professional coming running to admin for the right to edit their post? They have accidently giving the wrong code to someone in a fix, cant edit it, have spent half an hour do the fix to begin with... and you think they are going to wait around for admin to give them permission to rectify a mistake? Not likely...at least none I know. So therefore some poor newbie is now left scratching their head why it didnt work.

Also, I hope you have a good quota of new mods to recruit. Because there sure is going to be a LOT more editing to do!

crankydave

10-13-2004, 05:11 PM

Mike,

My 2 cents worth...

Although I'd rather have the edit feature, It's not going to stop me from posting entirely. I do, however, tend to agree with the others about the need to have this function available.

The "'EXCEPT_FOR_THESE_PEOPLE' should suffice. I'm wondering if this sort of thing has happened before, or if this is an isolated case. I can appreciate not leaving yourself open for this type of thing again. It's my understanding this was due to a single "individual".

Just seems like you're curing the disease but killing the patient.

Dave

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 05:17 PM

matauri does present a "two edged sword" scenario. Ohhh, I envy your position Mike!

I know where you are standing, but are you ready to take on the work that has always been self-administrated by members before?

Are you ready to give up the "draw" that aspect forges into the "community" and for new members?

Ken

mike

10-13-2004, 05:20 PM

I don't think so.

1. We don't have 1,000 people posting code every day.

2. Typically if you're posting code you are more likely to be copying and pasting from a working sample, not coding in the message box. If you post erroneous code, simply repost the correct code. That isn't overly difficult or time consuming.

3. If you are somebody who is an exception to number 1 and 2 above, you can always send me a PM and tell me you write a lot of code in the message box and could really use an edit button and I'll most likely give you one.

4. This won't be resulting an any significant increase of mod work at all.

5. There is a preview button right next to the submit button.

6. This is the best possible solution (given the software and situation) available to me. If you have a better solution that addresses the problem as well or better than this one, I'm all ears.

This really isn't that big of a deal. Pay attention to what you post the first time around - that isn't asking too much.

mike

10-13-2004, 05:27 PM

Are you ready to give up the "draw" that aspect forges into the "community" and for new members?

Ken

I don't really think editing qualifies as a 'draw'. It has never influenced my decision as to whether or not I wanted to participate in a forum.

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 05:30 PM

Mike:

"This really isn't that big of a deal. Pay attention to what you post the first time around - that isn't asking too much."

In ways you are right on, and it will have that effect to some extent, but you must remember that this is a voluntary "give and take scenario".

Many times after setting around for 12-16 hrs tending clients or your own Site... it's easy to miss something.

I am sure I didn't need to bring that up anyway.

All I can say is:

Let's see how it works. People are naturaly resistant to change, especially "BIG" changes. I hope that is not a strong element here.

Ken

speed

10-13-2004, 05:50 PM

2. Typically if you're posting code you are more likely to be copying and pasting from a working sample, not coding in the message box. If you post erroneous code, simply repost the correct code. That isn't overly difficult or time consuming.

That's going to get confusing bad code followed by good code, I link that's a step backwards and stupid!

3. If you are somebody who is an exception to number 1 and 2 above, you can always send me a PM and tell me you write a lot of code in the message box and could really use an edit button and I'll most likely give you one.

Can I have edit back please? But why should I have to ask when I can go to virtually any other forum and be trusted to edit my own posts?

4. This won't be resulting an any significant increase of mod work at all.
It will when I have to ask the mods to delete posts with bad code in them!

5. There is a preview button right next to the submit button.

You're telling me you've never messed up and done and edit?

So to sum up someone gave me an MVP badge but you don't trust me to edit my own posts without either asking for the privilege or doing another 65 posts.

That makes me feel so much like a member of this forum/community ... NOT!

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 05:52 PM

Mike:

"I don't really think editing qualifies as a 'draw'. It has never influenced my decision as to whether or not I wanted to participate in a forum."

I was more in reference to the "Community Spirit" that members provide and the power that "self-governence" brings.

There has been no bridge of "self-governence" here that I can percieve. By anyone, but one single member's actions, and that is being "railed" in more than one forum.

They know who they are and so does everyone else...

Are they going to continue under the same "surname", Will anyone respond?, Will they pay attention to posts by that member and respond again? Will that member have to "cash out" and take on a new member name? Will they have to take on a different demeanor if they do?

In the past we have always dealt with these issues directly and immediately through different channels.

What if:

250,000 visitors happened into this issue due to the mail notification we all look forward to every day, so what.... Let me join a self-governing community - now that's power.... that's where I want to be..

Is that not controlled?

Ken

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 06:03 PM

I just don't think that you have to "bear it all", history says we have always taken care of our "judiciary" responsibilities as community members.

Am I wrong?

Ken

mike

10-13-2004, 06:04 PM

[quote=Mike]
So to sum up someone gave me an MVP badge but you don't trust me to edit my own posts without either asking for the privilege or doing another 65 posts.

That makes me feel so much like a member of this forum/community ... NOT!

Actually, I gave you the MVP badge. MVPs will automatically be getting edit back as well.

This seems worse now because nobody can edit at the moment. Let me get it fixed and we'll see how it goes from there. If it doesn't work I'll try something else, but I'm still not close to convinced it will be nearly the issue that some of you have made it out to be.

Oddly enough, none of the folks complaining are even going to be impacted by this in any way.

matauri

10-13-2004, 06:09 PM

Oddly enough, none of the folks complaining are even going to be impacted by this in any way.

Oddly enough that should say enough in itself.

mike

10-13-2004, 06:11 PM

And I'm not calling your community judiciary standards into question at all Ken. I think this forum measures up pretty well in most regards.

That is to say it's not without flamers and folks with obvious chips on their shoulders, but you're gonna get that in most forums to some degree.

What I can't have is a repeat of last weekend's fiasco of mass post deletion. I don't think I have been able to amply communicate to you guys just HOW bad that is.

As such, I have no choice except to take some measures to at least introduce some checks and balances.

mike

10-13-2004, 06:13 PM

Oddly enough, none of the folks complaining are even going to be impacted by this in any way.

Oddly enough that should say enough in itself.

Yes, it speaks volumes.

greeneagle

10-13-2004, 06:22 PM

Mike,

Obviously you have the business aspect to consider. I don't know that readers are aware that the estimated value of Internet Marketing is now projected at $9Billion USD next year, up from $5-6 Billion projected just last year.

But on the other hand, I also believe that the "core community" appreciates that fact (or will)and that is precisely why there has been strong action (on more than one forum) drawing attention to this mess as exemplary.

I believe that is pretty strong support.
___

But then again maybe value is appreciated where found...

Now that was a nice edit!!! Probably the most enjoyable I have had!

Thanks,

Ken

salomon741

10-13-2004, 09:35 PM

Sorry I haven't replied in this thread for a while...

If you have 200 posts AND you've met the time constraint (which is roughly a week) you will automatically be granted editing abilities.

I see one problem here. Some members tend to stick around for a very long time, but do not make a lot of posts. Although they might have been in the forum for a few months, they might have made only 100 posts. For example, you [Mike] have been here since Jun 2003, but haven't even exceeded 300 posts. Greeneagle, around here since Dec 2003, but has exceeded 1000 posts. You are here longer than him, but haven't all come close to his posting status. (I KNOW that you are admin, but you could just as well be another member.)

Some members joining after this "crisis" might not know that they CAN edit their posts by simply sending you an email about it and taking up with you or the other admin. Are you going to notify them?

And if these new members don't know the editing rule, but want to contribute to the new forums as much as possible, they ARE going to keep posting new replies continuously just to fix their previous mistakes.

Although this will die down soon, and everyone probably won't care, are you ready to handle it now? You could (unless you have already) get a flood of email just over this issue. Many newbies could flock to you just for "editing." When I came to this forum, I wasn't able to delete my posts, but I was able to EDIT them. It felt great, I could fix the typos I made, change a paragraph in case what I said didn't get my point across, etc.

If I have to post a new reply just to fix something important, won't I lose credibility with excessive posting?

salomon741

10-13-2004, 10:06 PM

OK this is weird. On some of my posts I now have the ability to delete them!

Is this a side effect from the "surgery?"

Maximilian

10-13-2004, 10:25 PM

I see one problem here. Some members tend to stick around for a very long time, but do not make a lot of posts. Although they might have been in the forum for a few months, they might have made only 100 posts.

You have made a good point, salomon741.

Look, I tried to make a statement against over-moderation by deleting my previous posts. This action backfired & has now placed unwarranted contraints on all - For this I sincerely apologize to all.

My suggestion to Mike, is to let me take the hit & disallow my ability to self-edit without penalizing everyone else. I will simply, as Mike suggests, use the preview button prior to posting.

Again, I am truly sorry that my actions caused inconvenience to every poster here at WPW. It was not my intention to cause this inconvenience. I will take the hit - I do not believe, innocent posters should be restricted because of my actions.

BTW - I'm not hiding, I am here, I am taking the heat. I won't be hiding behind a new nick or changing my distict writing style. I have something to contribute here, I also have things I can learn here.

mike

10-13-2004, 10:41 PM

OK this is weird. On some of my posts I now have the ability to delete them!

Is this a side effect from the "surgery?"

ACK. um... it shouldn't be.

Based on your numbers you shouldn't have even been touched by any rules...
Very strange. PM me a link or two if you can.

mike

10-13-2004, 10:45 PM

The 200 number is my starting point by the way, I could easily adjust that down to, say 50 or so. That involves a much more extensive move (more people effected in in othe words). 200 gives me a more easily manageable group to set some automation with. The 'throttle' number is a minor variable change. It will almost certainly not stay at 200.

salomon741

10-13-2004, 11:00 PM

Based on your numbers you shouldn't have even been touched by any rules...
Very strange. PM me a link or two if you can.

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=29541&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25

It's very strange, and I think it only appeared on that post, but I haven't checked all of them...

http://www.sunnie.tv/PHOTOS/webprodelete.gif

Clicken

10-14-2004, 12:46 AM

Maximum-Beauty.com,

So You Are The One! To The Corner, Time Out Now! Don't be too sorry... just sorry enough not to do something like that again! (as if you’d have the privilege :o)

I have really enjoyed this discussion. I realize it has caused Mike a major headache and I shouldn't be laughing. But I can't help it. Here we are all mixed up together, some of us polished some of us not, and we try to communicate. It is the best way to learn more than we sought to know.

Here is a suggestion... You have all heard of the dreaded pink slips... Well, let's say a poster has left a questionable post that requires 'Special Attention'. The Moderator (or those with the authority) could leave a RED TEXT LINK (not blue, the standard).

This link would lead to the 'Interrogation Room' where members and admins beat out the rug! It sounds like Quarantine but it's open to all! Quarantine would be the FINAL Destination for offenders post with only privileged members and admin to do the wash.

Okay then, how about opening a window into quarantine… If all members could witness the crimes of outlaw posters then we would be educated on the proper posting and handling procedures. We posters need to know where the line is and what it looks like so we don’t cross it and so we can point it out to the authorities. (okay, seriously now)

Mike, you say that this doesn’t even affect most of those who are complaining. Speaking for myself, I noticed and read this thread because it WAS affecting me. Not in a major way but certainly an inconvenience for me. The edit option is definitely a PLUS but not a must.

People should accept responsibility and know to take their published works seriously if they expect to be taken seriously. Those who don’t care about being professional will probably always have problems adjusting to the constraints which are implemented to achieve levels of quality.

In an information exchange, one would expect and respect the thought out and unrushed response. I have learned to be more careful in posting and without the editing feature I continue to make mistakes/regrets that others will have to grin (or not) and bear.

Thanks Mike for all of your efforts and time striving to reach a platform that will be fair and just to the cause. May the force be with you!

LOOK… OVER THERE! (while he looks over there I will throw the confetti up there!)

mike

10-14-2004, 01:24 AM

(/taps clicken on the shoulder)
(/whispers)you should be edit-ready again now...
(/crawls back into database)

ldyguique

10-15-2004, 01:38 PM

I remember teching a call some years back -- a customer had been posting to the Usenet for years and wanted to remove some of his posts because he was getting married and wanted to clean up his image. I told him that it wasn't possible -- that the posts would live forever (at that time on Deja Vu -- now taken over by Google). I suggested that he change his nick and let the past drift away.

As a historian and librarian, I believe in the value of "original materials." But, does that imply an original material that was highly edited before being presented in some public manner, or something of the dynamic and volatile nature as "online"?

I do know that I've found it disconcerting to read a thread and have discussions where all meaning was ripped away by followup edits. Max's recent blitz was only the most dramatic. <edit to remove a comment>

I even considered posting to the issue, as he continued to open new topics. I decided to avoid posting where he was--but that wasn't a solution, either.

I've edited for two reasons in the past: 1) for grammatical or spelling errors -- to clean up my own image; and, 2) I removed some content as I felt that in hindsight that it didn't belong on this particular forum and was posting it elsewhere in edited form (it was about my Company's decision to send all of our jobs overseas and my reactions to it and offshore outsourcing). Also, it could have affected my severence package and the release that I was forced to sign some months AFTER the posting(s).

Also, because of these particular anti-Company postings that I requested that my pic be removed prior to beginning the posting -- I felt it might be a fireable offense if it could be traced directly to me.

It's a fineline that we walk when Freedom of Speech is a Constitutional guarantee and one can be fired for insubordination, which usually means disagreement with some authority.

I guess I feel that editing is a privilege as it's not universal online. One cannot edit a newsgroup posting. Some blogs don't allow editing. I do know that overall, it can gut and/or change the meaning of a thread substantially. However, since anyone posting is doing a voluntary act that could have consequences, that each individual should have the right to edit -- the individual good versus the group good, regardless of how long one has been a member.