Name Your Favorite Browser

[SyrenSong]

I'm curious about what browsers people prefer to use and why.

As a web designer, I think it's very important to design for multiple browsers. Sometimes people choose their browser because of a disability. Sometimes it's the browser that came with preloaded on their computer. Sometimes it was downloaded for one or more very specific reasons.

Oh, and if you have a specific version you prefer, I'd like to know why that version is better than the others.

So, what's your browser and why? An interested designer wants to know!

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Syren

[SyrenSong]

Ooops! I forgot to add Opera. My apologies to all the Opera users out there! ;)

Syren

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

There are tons more browsers out there than the top dogs everyone knows about.

IBM HomePage Reader is low cost and performs well.

Windows Platform: K-Meleon

Cross-Platform: Firebird, Beonex, Pheonix

Mac Platform: Camino

*nix Platforms: Aphrodite, Galeon

IBM Web Browser for OS/2

There are tons more. http://browsers.evolt.org/ and http://dir.yahoo.com/Computers_and_Internet/software/internet/world_wide_web/browsers/.

But I know Syren listed only a few to be brief.

My personal favorite is Firebird for its small load and footprint on my system resources. Plus the ability to support the other languages IE doesn't even come close to supporting. But knowing I have to support IE in my designs I limit the advancements in some sites.

[PBITech]

Opera 7.11.....Thanks :)

Jim

[jScott_Harris]

I'm not picky on my fav, but I'm picky on what it supports. I'm a huge fan of PNG's. They do things other formats only dream about. So it sucks that IE doesn't support their transparency features. Opera does probably the best job i've seen for Windows, and I've never seen a problem on any Linux browser. (But really, who wants to design on linux? GIMP sux!)

[SyrenSong]

But I know Syren listed only a few to be brief.
Yeah. I really hated to pick and choose. Especially since I knew I was going to leave out quite a few that are more popular with designers than with the average web surfer, but I had to start somewhere.

***********


I'm not picky on my fav, but I'm picky on what it supports. I'm a huge fan of PNG's. They do things other formats only dream about.

You're right about PNG files. But since I try to program for older browsers, as well as newer ones, I try to avoid using PNGs, in spite of all their promise and what the future holds. ;)

One of my favorite features for Mozilla and Opera is the ability to disable popups! But Google's toolbar is only available for IE, so far (and several other toolbars as well).

As for Opera, I've seen a few problems with some Opera versions and lack of support for iframes. That causes problems for some sites I've visited. I don't know if the problem extends to Linux, though. Have you noticed anything like that?


**********

Thanks for your responses so far, folks. I really appreciate the input!

Syren

[J_Paul]

I'd have to say that my fav is probably IE, not because I use it all the time, but because most of the population of the internet uses IE as a default. For me it's about designing for the most popular browers, so IE tops the chart aye?

All your browser are belong to us

[SyrenSong]

I'd have to say that my fav is probably IE, not because I use it all the time, but because most of the population of the internet uses IE as a default. For me it's about designing for the most popular browers, so IE tops the chart aye?

Yeah. IE tops the charts, but how do you deal with other browsers? Do you test at all for compatibility? Or are folks using other browsers left totally on their own?

I've had sites crash my entire computer to the point of needing a complete restart, simply because I'm not using IE.

Just because IE comes with the Windows software, it doesn't mean you have to use it. Any more than you've got to keep using the same tires that came with your car originally, even though you know there are better brands out there.

Along the same lines, why else would auto detailing shops and the J.C. Whitney catalog be so popular? ;)

Syren

[J_Paul]

Syren,

I usually test in Netscape and IE and things tend to work in the other browsers as well from there.

I suppose over the years I have learned to minimize my coding so that it will show properly in each browser without problems. I occasionally have some huge problems here and there that I have to work out. But it's most works.

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

Well for those IE fans out there, let me point you to this article http://www.okec.org/news/standards.htm. I'm not pointing it out simply because I was interviewed by this State organization, but more so that it will point out views from others.

IE offers nothing, at this point, on the Windows platform. The only thing it offers is a thorn in the side of visitors who choose better software.

I've gone on record stating that I will not be a patron of businesses that develop for IE only. I also do not recommend the services of those companies.

Now for the exciting news. IE is not tops. Let me explain some things that people simply do not pay total attention to.

There are tons of browsers out there. Of those browsers many of them mask themselves as IE so that those poorly written scripts will work in their browsers. Take as an example Opera. Take again the example of JAWS and IBM HomePage Reader.

Those are three top of the line browsers and assistive technologies that can or do mask themselves as IE. While JAWS is based upon the IE engine, it is not IE.

AOL is returning to the IE engine. However, it is not IE.

Therefore, it is easy to see that there isn't anything that developing for IE which provides importance or demands for developing for that browser.

When a person states that IE is the #1 used browser I end up defeating that argument because they can't prove it's IE visiting their site. The only show server logs where the visitor used a program that identified itself as IE.

Now, for the really cool part of this and an even more or less surprising piece of work. Many of the email harvesters use the IE mask so that they can get by the blocks or redirects that would otherwise prevent them from capturing email addresses off a site.

Seems a one-sided, shorted vision of something that people just don't understand. Even the top of the line logging tools like WebTrends can't tell the difference.

At any rate, I hope those that read the article appreciate it.

[SyrenSong]

Hey WebDoctor -

I had heard of email harvesters (and occasionally some search engines, depending on the analysis software used, or so I've been told) posing as other browsers, including IE. That makes it all the more difficult to determine exactly which browser is truly tops in the browser wars.

I guess the way I look at is this: Browsers that emulate IE aren't necessarily providing a 100% emulation. As a result, I believe if the figures would probably show that IE users compared to other browsers as a group would definitely be less than the 90% or higher level some would have us believe.

In other words, IE may have a higher market share compared to each individual browser, but this would not necessarily be true to such a dramatic extent if the total number of non-IE browser users was compared to the total number of IE browser users.


And another thought occurs after reading your article.


With the advent of AOL 8.0 (which will use a Netscape browser) the paradigm will shift away from IE.

The article you posted is about a year old. So that begs another question.

What effect do you think the layoffs of all those AOL/Netscape employees earlier this month will have on the trend away from IE?I know AOL is saying that they will continue to support Netscape, but it looks like they're planning on lying down with Microsoft again.

Syren

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

That interview was done July 2002.

The advent of AOL going back to IE in AOL9 swings the paradigm back to IE emulating software. However, it does not swing the issues back to IE as a piece of software that over shadows the others on an aggregate view point.

Gecko has the widest used number of browser variants. People that want to say Netscape forget or simply don't realize that since N6 the engine is Gecko. Although the browsers do emulate Netscape/Mozilla.

I still think that as more people become educated to the problems with IE more people will start using more secure and reliable software applications. There will still be those that are lazy (which MS is relying upon) that don't try to get a better browser simply because of download times or the lack of easy upgrading since Netscape 6.

The old Smart Update was an awesome feature. Now you have to download the entire package each time. That 18+Meg download is burdensome on dial up connections. Not to mention that upgrading from NN4 is murder on the less than astute computer user.

Because of the issues with downloading any software for browsing on the WWW, people tend to not upgrade until they get a new computer which of course has IE on it. Even Macs come with MacIE on it, the last time I checked, while Apple developed Safari which is included as well.

So, will it ever push IE to the 90% mark? I seriously doubt it as Linux is being shipped on desktops now and is climbing the desktop user lists.

I even seriously doubt that IE will push 60%. The last real report I saw that took the "real world" metrics into account showed IE at only 40%. Unfortunately, it's been a year since that report and I don't want to again show a report that's more that six months old - not to mention I'd have to find it again.

I don't keep physical notes of everything. Although some may think I do. :)

I hope this has helped to some degree.

Thanks for the question Syren.

[SyrenSong]

I hope this has helped to some degree.

Thanks for the question Syren.

The added info was a definite help. As for stats, let's face it - they're always changing in the computer industry.

As for the question - asking is the best way to learn something new! ;)

Thanks again for the additional information, Lee.

Syren

[Ron]

I have to go with J_Paul all the way. I use MSIE 6.0 simply because I realize it's what the vast majority of my visitors will view my sites in. I test in Netscape and, when I think about it, in Opera as well.

At one time, it was 'give and take' between MSIE and Netscape. I mean, some things that were viewed easily in IE sent Netscape into a tailspin and vice-versa. Now, with the latest of both versions installed, they are closer to being compatible than I can ever recall.

There's my 2 cents worth!

[mpnev]

Opera my personal favorite... Why? Because it's strict and doesn't let me get away with making mistakes on my websites... If it looks good in Opera - it more than likely looks good in all browsers...

I test all site designs on ALL browsers though...

[carju1]

My favourite is Netscape for useability as a web surfer but I tend to use IE for most things. Why because its the one most of my users use.

site Stats by browser type last 2 months
IE 492,000
Netscape 38,000
Opera 3,000
Others 10,000
crawlers/bots 28,000

So its simple if 90% of my hits are from IE (286k=IE6, 198k=IE5, 8k=IE4) everything had better work in IE, so by default I'd better know how it works better than my users and therefore I'd better use it more than my users. Therefore I reluctantly use IE for most of my web time.

Until about 2 years ago I stood firm and refused to have IE on my pc at home but: time, tides and the allmighty MS wait for no man, so I gave in eventually :(

Julian

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

So its simple if 90% of my hits are from IE (286k=IE6, 198k=IE5, 8k=IE4) everything had better work in IE, so by default I'd better know how it works better than my users and therefore I'd better use it more than my users.

Ok, so either the less educated and lazy forced you into a decision that you knew was wrong OR you willingly jumped off the cliff to join them. Either way you joined the crowd. Some would commend you on giving in and some would consider you a traitor.

It makes no difference which browser people use. However it does make a difference to me if they begin to program only for IE. By your statements and your stats you show that people utilize other browsers.

Now, the one thing you have to be careful about when you start citing your stats like that is they are always incorrect. You can show me stats all day and I'll continue to inform you that they are wrong.

Here's the reasons why.

1. Browsers can mask themselves as IE so they can access a site. Take Opera as an example.
2. Assistive technologies often mask themselves as IE to utilize sites.
3. Email harvesters often mask themselves as IE to get beyond the email harvester blocks/denials.
4. Some search bots will mask themselves as IE.

So, to make things clear - IE stats are never accurately shown.

I hope this helps.

[carju1]

Hi Lee,

You said
Ok, so either the less educated and lazy forced you into a decision that you knew was wrong OR you willingly jumped off the cliff to join them. Either way you joined the crowd. Some would commend you on giving in and some would consider you a traitor.
I'll accept traitor to my personal beliefs for the second part but for the first part its more a case of forced into a decision I felt was morally wrong (I hate the MS dominance) but was correct from a commercial point of view.

OK even if I lower the figure to 80% for IE (which is probably closer to the truth I still stand by my other statement that I have to build for IE first and then hope/make it work in others second. Its the same reason that shoe shops stock shoes in the UK for men from size 6 - 12 only and why the big manufactures make them only in this range. Most people have feet in this size range so it make buisness sense to meet the demands of the majority rather than spend extra money tooling production for other sizes.

If you take size 14 you either have to go to an 'Outsize' shop or see if your local shop can put in an order for you or only buy from the traditional shoe makers who are specialist but charge a lot more. Yes its damned annoying if (like me) you take a 13 but that business and of course I patronise the specialist shops not the high street chains. But the high street chains and manufacturers don't care because I am a small % of their business with a low profit margin return. I can't change my foot size but I can change my browser.

If my clients want a site that works in all browsers or specifically works in a 'non IE/Netscape' browser (this applies more to intranets than internets) then they have to pay more for it if I'm paid by the hour and have to do extra work. If they, as most do, are happy that it works in 95% of browsers and that content will display (if not so nicely) in the other 5% then you can do less testing, develop more quickly and charge the client less.

So like it or not we as an industry are stuck with IE and had better develop for it. I know its a vicious spiral as more sites are only useable by IE more people will switch to IE but that's the realities of commercial life. I, like you, go way back to pre image browser days and the wild days of early development but much as I want to intellectualy back Netscape, Opera etc. and know that diversity is of a greater benefit than MS conformity with its poor standards etc. I have a family to feed and its building for IE that will do that not holding a torch for less popular systems.

Regards
Julian

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

Many developers think that developing for the non-standards compliant IE products will result in better usage of the site. Unfortunately, that's not entirely true.

Let's look at a situation some of us may know about.

Sun's Java Virtual Machine was ordered by the US courts to be included in Windows. MS has appealed saying it would mess up their operating system. However, what it will mess up is how the IE engine reads and understands JavaScript making JScript (the MS version of JavaScript) a thing of the past.

If a site is developed without the use of "eye candy" which is what JavaScript is really. And in turn is developed using ECMAScript which is a standards compliant version of JavaScript and works well with the DOM (document object model) standards all the newer browsers will work alike.

IE on Mac is 99.9% standards compliant. The IE Windows version is only 92% standards compliant. If a site is developed using the standards then the site will work in all browsers. Of course, those with IE may find some things that don't work exactly the way they want them to, but the site will work none-the-less.

However, if we follow the paradigm in the other direction and program for IE we will find that all other browsers will have problems. MS's idea is that as long as people are developing to their less than adequate browser they have no reason to fix it.

I no longer support NN4 on my main site, however my other sites still do well for NN4. My client's sites all work to support NN4. That means my sites will always work in IE without using the proprietary codes IE uses which are not supported in other browsers.

Take VBScript for example. The only browser that supports VBScript is IE. So, why use it if the rest of the world can't use it?

Develop your sites to the standards and everyone will be able to use your sites. It's no hard and actually less hard than trying to program to a single browser.

I can empathise with your situation Julian. I commend you on your efforts. But just look at it on through the "big window" rather than the "small window". It works much better.

[SyrenSong]

OK even if I lower the figure to 80% for IE (which is probably closer to the truth I still stand by my other statement that I have to build for IE first and then hope/make it work in others second. Its the same reason that shoe shops stock shoes in the UK for men from size 6 - 12 only and why the big manufactures make them only in this range. Most people have feet in this size range so it make buisness sense to meet the demands of the majority rather than spend extra money tooling production for other sizes.

There's one big problem with this analogy, carju1. People can't change the size of their feet - not even with plastic surgery. People can change their browser any time they choose.

You comment on IE being so popular and widely used. The reason it's so widely used is because so many people have bought PC computers that come with Windows already installed on their machines.

What happens now that there is a rise in Linux-based machines available on the market for less than 1/2 the cost of many PCs? That's an increase in the number of non-IE browsers in use.

I should also mention the fact that some US government offices go to great lengths to ensure IE is not installed on their machines and that only Netscape is available to government employees at their offices.

One could argue that government employees shouldn't be surfing websites for personal reasons, and they'd be right. But what if they're on their lunch? Or doing some sort of important research? There are many sites that are improperly programmed and would be, not only unviewable in IE, but would crash a Netscape browser and/or the entire computer. That's bad for business all the way around.

If a site you programmed has useful information and yet crashes non-IE browsers, then of course you'll have stats indicating a greater percentage of IE visitors. Word would spread through offices to avoid the sites that cause crashes. And people who discover such sites on their own would simply avoid ever returning to them in the future.

Programming sites to be standards-compliant and therefore compatible for non-IE browsers only makes good business sense.

Why chase potential customers away before they've even had a chance to look into your store's window?

Syren

[vicks]

I'm forced to use IE at my job, however at my home I prefer mozilla or green browser (http://www.softspecialist.com/GreenBrowser-13/GreenBrowser.htm).

[dharrison]

Naughty SyrenSong, forgetting Opera of all browsers. How much of the cyberspace population depend on their Opera browsers? ... Oh not many then. :lol:

I'm a FireFox girl. I was MSIE but in 2005 I got bored of it and at the time it was so easy to switch (exporting bookmarked sites was a particular feature that persuaded me to change)

Just as well because it is reported that for 284 days of 2006 MSIE was vulnerable to attacks. Of course if FF can measure up to the same pressure? Well that remains to be seen.

[jtracking]

i know some people are going to want to burn me at the stake for saying this but if I had my way, all other browsers would be dead...when it came to PCs that is...long live Internet Explorer.

reason #1. Who knows the most about their operating system? Microsoft ofcourse so they would obviously make the best browser.

reason #2. Since the operating system is microsofts they do have a right to make an internet browser so if someone else makes one, they should make it so it works the same as the rest of the world's...why all the problems with sizing, placements bla bla bla? It's irritating.

reason #3. Maybe other browsers have neat little gadgets or options that IE doesn't have but again, I don't need 13 browsers. I need one and if we all used the same browsers we designers/developers wouldn't have to waste our time trying to "make things work" in firefox or operal etc. Why???? what's the point? to prove we're cool?

It's a waste of my time.

[jtracking]

Just as well because it is reported that for 284 days of 2006 MSIE was vulnerable to attacks. Of course if FF can measure up to the same pressure? Well that remains to be seen.

Attacks Ashmacks! If you have a decent anti-virus program attacks can be a thing of the past. : )

[dharrison]

Not me personally jtracking. :shock: I gave up using MSIE in 2005!! I only test on it now.

[jtracking]

Not me personally jtracking. :shock: I gave up using MSIE in 2005!! I only test on it now.

: ) I know but I feel it's just terrible to have to test and test on all these browsers.

Ofcourse it's a free market and everyone has the right to make a browser but is it that hard to make all web pages render the same? I guess it is cause moz and opera like to give developers tons of trouble...

but i have to say though, when i use imageready to mock up a design, cut it and import it into dreamweaver as html i don't get cross browser problems - so that's a nice bonus...

:p :p :p

[dharrison]

You're gonna hate me for saying this JT, but as far as compatability goes, I find I get more issues with MSIE than any of the other browsers. :p

Sorry.

[timmathews.com]

I love IE. Windows Internet Explorer makes me very happy.

[MarcieZoob]

For personal use: Firefox, baby!

I also use IE6/IE7 a great deal because our clients use IE products, mainly because it's what comes pre-installed on their PCs.