Dahl & Dahl, Attorneys at Law

[CRSDesign]

Thanks for any input, folks. This logo is on a white background at http://www.DahlLaw.net and is used for their entire business system of cards, letterhead, envelopes, and icons on Polo shirts, cups, pens, etc...

http://www.CRSDesign.com/images/art/logos/dahl.gif

[tikanet]

I have no idea what the symbol means, but there are disturbing aspects about it that I'd appreciate being able to share. There is clearly a cross at it's center. This is potentially alienating to non-Christians. If Dahl and Dahl are comfortable with that rather limiting association, perhaps they might not embrace the fact that the symbol resembles a Nazi swastika at first glance (not the Greek cross or Chinese character for infinity). It just seems to be dangerously close to potentially offending many people with disperate, and possibly conflicted leanings. Well, just my two cents worth.

[matauri]

Have to agree with Tikanet in that it is a bit confusing to know what it actually represents. However, I didn't first up see a Nazi swastika, I saw a cross & thought of funeral home.

I also think you need to anchor your "&" better than it is now.

If the logo doesnt mean anything, you could change the positioning of it to make it like interlocking jigsaw pieces. That would work.

It has potential :-)


Cindy

[CRSDesign]

Hi and Thanks for your comments.

My client chose the symbol you see. It is a Chinese symbol, Fu. On his website you can actually click on the symbol on any page (top left on blue marble) and it reads:

'Fu is the name of the sign in Chinese symbolism for authority, divine power and the ability to judge what is right and wrong. Thus it is a symbol for justice. It is used in many Western countries today.
Compare with )( , to split or cleave, and the Pisces sign, denoting two fish swimming in opposite directions.'

So there you have the explanation... we worked on it a long time to get the symbol just right, though I see what you see, a cross in the center and some resemblance to the Nazi Swastika. Being that my client is Jewish these things occurred to him as well, but it was his decision... and he has gotten plenty of good feedback (and business, I might add) for his specialty in law.

Thanks again for your comments, I really appreciate any comments at all. All in all I think the design is good, and that is something you didn't touch on at all, so if you have anything further you would like to add I'd like to know what that might be.

[Bill Haig]

Why not just make things simple. Why use a Fu character as the symbol if it has to be explained?

Try my credibility persuasion approach to logo design. In this case symbolize what you do which says you are an expert in this field. In your case "law". Or, if you specialize, say that with "law". Then add a dash of "trustworthy" design overtones to the "law/law specialty" symbol such as "cutting-edge knowledge". This is communicated by design as a contemporary style or motif. Together being "expert" and "trustworthy" will tell us that you are "credible". I have a great logo example for a professional firm on my website.

Remember: being expert (law or law specialty) + being trustworthy (cutting-edge knowledge) = credibility = message acceptance = happy clients/new clients.

[CRSDesign]

I guess I don't understand what these forums are meant to be used for. I thought I would get feedbgack on the actual design, not the meaning of the symbol. I didn't choose this symbol. My client did, and it's his logo, not mine. I thought I was going to learn more and get feedack on the actual design itself, what elements are good or bad. I am the designer and was looking to discuss those elements.
The symbol needing an explanation is actually effective in my estimation. It gives people something to talk about, ask about and have the attorney explain to them. It has had that effect and I think that is what he was aiming for. It is differenet and memorable which is one of the elements of design I learned in graphic design training. I guess I was wrong about these forums...

Thanks everyone for your comments, though I am a little disillusioned about the worth of having put it out there.

[grease]

Hi CRSDesign,

I apologize, as forum moderator, that you are feeling disillusioned. The members of this forum have are at differet levels, ranging from amateur to professional. People of all levels are free to state their opinion in an objective manner. It your choice to either accept or reject the advice given, based on your own expertise and intuition.

An important part of developing a brand identity or logo is evaluating a design's marketability and meaning. There are many beautiful works of art posted in this forum that would fail miserably as logos. Also there are many logos that try to pack too much meaning into a visual catastrophe.

Your logo looks great therefore no one felt the need to critisize this! I apologize on behalf of the posters that this was not brought up. Members are used to this being a learning environment and sometimes take an objective standpoint that can be mistaken for 'cold'.

[grease]

Personally, I feel the symbol could work very well if you can place more emphasis on the word 'Law'. You are definitely on the money for 'Uniqueness'. I challenge everyone to look up 'Lawyer' in their yellow pages. If I see another scale I am going to grow scales. I also feel your typeface was well choosen - very strong and legal feeling. The contrasting sans serif typeface is effective at the bottom. I put follow through on the '&' symbol suggestion. This symbol is very attractive and could stand to be quite large. Your 'D's are feeling just a tad squishy relative to all the other elements.

Please spend some more time reviewing the many posts and topics in this forum before making any generalizations. You have a wealth of valuable knowledge at your disposal - for free!

Warm Regards,

Grease

[CRSDesign]

I wish to convey a public note of thanks to the forum moderator, who took a moment to explain to me how this all works. I am much happier and feel good about having joined now.
:)

I will continue to ask for reviews, and offer reviews as well. Thanks again, Grease!

Rene

[gRF]

Hi Rene,
here are few suggestions from me:

- Try to make a clear difference between chinese symbol and the rest of the logo - make the symbol fully filled with color (not just outline) and remove the shadow. That way chinese symbol becomes the symbol for itself, and not the part of the "Dahl & Dahl" text.

- The ampersand ("&") is too small. Way too small. For example, if you print this logo on business cards, the ampersand will look like a smudge.

[Bill Haig]

I need to respond as well relative to my logo design perspective.

First of all, I am a communicator/psychology buff, not a designer. As such, I look at logo design from a Credidbily based years of experience. I will leave the "move this here", "color it this" comments to those more knowledgeable about these fine points of design on this forum.

I look at logos in terms of how well they communicate, and, in turn, influence. Those who have read my comments before know that I am an advocate for Credibility Based Logo Design. If a logo isn't credible, it won't influence.

So, I am like the architect who looks at the whole house. I look first if it is right style. If it is not, it is not worth commenting about moving a window here, or a door there.

Your law firm logo does not communicate the right symbology to be credibile. It must communicate what the company does --- law, or a law speciality. That says it is an "expert" in this field. Just like the principles in the firm are considered "experts" which is why one goes to them rather than a chef. Not putting down chefs, but you can see where I am going with this. The logo also needs to convey the company's trustworthiness. These are non-verbal design overtones to the content. It says if the company is cutting-edge, or stable. Design and shapes communicate these company attributes.

Great comments by all of you. We need several viewpoints on this forum. I hope my contribution is always helpful.

[CRSDesign]

Boy, I never thought this logo could create such diverse responses! I am learning some interesting thoughts out there, and appreciate all the input.

I wonder what would happen if I submitted MY logo, not one I created for a client to exactly his specifications... you have no idea how many iterations this went through and how many times I listened to him say, ..."the ampersand was too large, make it almost disappear..." and so on...

I must say about the drop shadow, I like it better flat, too, and suggested that as well. It is being used on many items for gifts.

Keep it going, I am having a ball standing over here watching and listening, now the grease helped me grasp the forum concept.

Sincerely,
Rene

[Bill Haig]

In all due respects, it is best not to always take what the client says and do it "exactly" as he wants it. This always causes problems. You told us some.

Rather, before a logo assignment starts, ask questions about the company business and what makes the company unique. There is more, but these two questions will give you a wealth of information on which to establish the logo "design criteria" --- what the logo is to say.

The criteria should only be a very few words describing the content of the logo and the design motif of the content. These are the logo communication objectives. Get the client to agree before any design starts that the logo communication objectives are correct. This gives the designer a specific direction to follow.

Then, when the final logo alternatives are presented, have the agreed upon design criteria objectives with you. Judge each alternative based on the objectives. You should have one which best meets the design criteria objectives. Don't leave the room until the client agrees that this is the one.

Planning the logo design criteria objectives is often said to be 90 percent of the job. Get that correct, get the client to agree, and the final design follows. This makes the final selection very easy with little or no corrections.

This process saves both client and designer time. Time is money in our business. Each job is profitable when this process is followed.

[CRSDesign]

Well, Mr. Haig, even if I follow your suggestions it seems the client doesn't get it. In addition, I work primarily from the Net by word of mouth, and have met less than half my clients face to face. That always proves to be interesting... and challenging.

In any case, thank you for your time and input, I do listen and learn from it.
Rene

[Bill Haig]

I appreciate your comments Rene and hope I have been helpful. You might be interested to know that all my logo work is done on the internet. I spent over forty years in offices, face to face. My process of asking the right questions, establishing objectives based on credibility principles, agreeing on the objectives, preparing preliminary logo designs and hitting on that great Credibility Based Logo Design --- all done over the internet --- works. Client communication works on the internet by emails --- start to finish. Even my design team's work is transmitted back and forth. I find this a very efficient way to do business, for both my clients and myself.

[zeroflux]

Its funny how people see different things in "illusion" symmetrical designs. When I saw the logo, I missed the cross and swastika, but my first thought was "Patent Law" due to the technical rigid look of the character.

Aren't chinese characters typically made with paint brush strokes? It may halp to distort the image a bit and render it with a less exact paint brush stroke in Illustrator.

I like it though.

[egtrix designs]

Hello,
A very nice logo, but I think the (&) should be resized to a larger scale. Because when resizing the whole logo to a smaller scale, the (&) sign will appear as a distortion in the logo.