Page Rank, Positioning, and Quality

[minstrel]

More evidence that quality design and even content may have little impact on "Page Rank":

I've just visited two sites which were sent to me at my website requesting links. One ranked 5 and the other 6 on Google (both incidentally higher than mine which is 4) - both were visually awful (bad fonts, bad text formatting, dollar-store clip art, and simplistic and non-informative content)... but, if the goal is PR, they're obviously doing something right!

I won't identify the sites since that would seem too much like a breach of privacy (the links were sent to me, not to this forum). However, I will say that I didn't waste much time on either site and I didn't link to them. To me, what this illustrates is that if you want to get and keep people's attention - get them to stay a while on your site and even return another day - give them something that looks good and has some substance, and something that gives them a reason to come back. It probably helps to also make sure it's a site they can find their way around without guessing.

Now, since both sites had higher PRs than my site, presumably there could be some potential advantage to me in linking to them. So why didn't I? Because, frankly I think linking to another site implies some endorsement of the site by you and I don't want anyone thinking that I endorsed those two. If it isn't a site you'd be proud to take home to your spouse and children, maybe you'd better not associate yourself with it.

[janeth]

While I agree 100% about not linking to sites that you would not be willing to use yourself there is a problem with that.

It is called Google.

In order to compete online unless you have a ton of money you need to be listed in Google for your best key words and in the top 20.

In order to do that you need incoming links.

Google has put so much weight on incoming links that you can find sites every where ranked number one for nothing but incoming links.
Check out

Computers

web sites

Promote

hosting

What do all these search terms have in common there very popular and the top sites do not use the search term in there text but yet there all ranked number one.

Build your web site for your customers but link for Google. It is the only way to compete for the good key words.

I do not like it and do not think it is right but it does seem to be the only way.

[minstrel]

While I agree 100% about not linking to sites that you would not be willing to use yourself there is a problem with that. It is called Google. In order to compete online unless you have a ton of money you need to be listed in Google for your best key words and in the top 20.

You're right, Janeth, if your goal is simply to be in the top 10 for Google.

But... what is it worth to be there if, after looking at your site, the visitor clicks off, goes to the next site on the list, and never returns? Isn't this a little like the issue about clicks on an ad banner versus purchases from the affiliate?

It seems to me that the bottom line for anyone here is to translate whatever ranking you have into sales and/or repeat vistors. And the sites I mentioned that prompted this thread I thought were examples of what can happen if you make ranking your #1 priority.

I understand what you're saying, Janeth. The points I am making here really are reminders to all of us that it's easy to become obsessive or to get consumed by the issue of PR, etc., and forget what the purpose of being listed at all really is.

[janeth]

I'm not saying it is ok to have an ugly site. The look of the site is just as important if not more important then your ranking.

But what I was saying is that in order to compete on Google we sometimes have to link to sites that we would not normally link to in order to compete.

Lets face it my chance of loosing a customer to an ugly site is less then loosing a customer to a nice site.

So really I come out better by linking to the ugly sites.

[minstrel]

Lets face it my chance of loosing a customer to an ugly site is less then loosing a customer to a nice site. So really I come out better by linking to the ugly sites.

I wasn't only talking about appearance, though - it's also (and I know you already know this) about content. There are some very good sites out there that aren't the prettiest in the world.

My first site (about 5 years ago) was reviewed like this way: "An informative and valuable site but it could really use some design work". That didn't stop the site from beating out my immediate competitors because it did provide the public with a lot of useful information. (And by the way, back then I had no idea about what was good or bad for search engines - I only knew that I was doing better than my competitors for reasons I didn't understand.)

Addendum: actually, now that I think about it, it was more like 6 or 7 years ago - I really have to go back and make some of those old psychological test scoring programs Y2K compliant...

[matauri]

I think you have to look at your target audience Dave. If you are an online shop, then you don't care who are your customers, as long as you have customers. So you will go linking to anything to get a better ranking...but...that better ranking isn't necessarily giving them top billing in the index or directory. Many also dont care much about the presentation of sites...they just want sales.

I think of it like K-mart & a speciality store. You know from the moment you walk in that its K-mart..ther is no mistaking the cheap & nasty feel of it. But we still go there to get a bargain that has been advertised. Whereas with a speciality store, you enjoy wandering around it, will take note of what they sell & be a return customer.

For clients who wish to go down that path, its fine with me, its their image not mine. Personally though, I would like to see the Internet quality & quantity improve. I am not fussed if I have a 0-10 ranking, as long as my site is in the top 10 pages for a good choice of keywords. Most of my sites have quite good placings for relevent keywords, and I dont do reciprocal links. If I link to you from one of my sites, its because I think your site is good enough to link to, and I dont ask for a reciprocal link, I jsut advise that I am linking to your site.

The internet is becoming a mishmash of crap lately, and all because of this ranking fad. I think its time that it started to get some integrity.

Cindy

[janeth]

I agree with both of you and I hate exchanging links.
But you can build a great web site write some great content get ranked for some less competitive key words and that may work great.
But if you want to go after the big key words then you have to have incoming links using those key words in the link.
This is something that Google started. When they started putting some much weight on links.
You can have the best site in the world but if no one can find it then it does you no good.
We work on everything the way the site looks, content, navigation, search engine optimization and last but no lest links.
Done right it does not have to hurt the image of your site.

[matauri]

Here's a classic example Janeth...

I am a business who wants to get a net presence. I have been told to also check a sites ranking when looking for one. I go to Google & enter 'web designer', over 7 million sites come up. I do as advised and go to the ones that come up with high ranking higher in the results list. I know nothing about web design & decide to hire one of those companies. They have good seating postion on Google, have good ranking so they must be among the best.

Now.... go do that search yourself. I did. I wouldn't give work to any of the top 20 !

So what does the Internet end up with, crap with endless popups designed by those very top ranked web design businesses.

There is no point saying that its Google's fault & ya have to play their game. It's up to SEO's & designers to clean up the act from the ground up. Otherwise in another 10 yrs you will be playing the same game & the net will be full of crap. But these SEO's & designers wont buck the system, because the allure of the quick $$$ tells them who cares.

Its a bit like expecting to buy a Christian Lacroix dress in Kmart. He could quite easily sell in Kmart if he wanted to, but he doesn't.

We are the only ones who can install integrity into the Internet, we are the grass roots of it. If we don't do it, who will?


Cindy

[minstrel]

I go to Google & enter 'web designer', over 7 million sites come up. I do as advised and go to the ones that come up with high ranking higher in the results list. I know nothing about web design & decide to hire one of those companies. They have good seating postion on Google, have good ranking so they must be among the best. Now.... go do that search yourself. I did. I wouldn't give work to any of the top 20!

That's it in a nutshell - how many of those companies will get word-of-mouth recommendations or repeat business?

You can make a lot of money being one of the Back Street Boys or 'n Synch. But you can also do pretty well by writing and performing music that actually says something - Dire Straits, Dylan, Springsteen, Eagles, etc. Crap isn't the only road to success but I guess you have to expect to be rubbing shoulders with it most of the way...


Its a bit like expecting to buy a Christian Lacroix dress in Kmart. He could quite easily sell in Kmart if he wanted to, but he doesn't.

Who's Christian Lacroix? Wasn't he that guy Marlon Brando played in Mutiny on the Bounty? He goes to K-Mart?

[matauri]

Who's Christian Lacroix? Wasn't he that guy Marlon Brando played in Mutiny on the Bounty? He goes to K-Mart?

LOL..close but not quite ;-)

And...just as a footnote....a classic example of flooding the net with links is this 'coolance.com' who has been flooding these boards with his link. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can flood links!


Cindy

[janeth]

My web site is designed to sale to the customer.

It does need some work, which it is getting, but it is made for the customer first.

But it is also made to rank good on the search engines. In another 6 months when you type in web design my site will come up in the top.

But the only reason it will be there will be because of links. If I want to rank in the top for web design I have to play Google's game.

I can say I'm going to show Google, I'm not going to get any links to my site. But I do not think Google really cares.

So in order to make the people play a new game you have to first be in the game.

[minstrel]

in order to make the people play a new game you have to first be in the game.

Very well said - I've made that same point in the past in debates about organizational or systemic change - if you want to change it, get in there and earn some credibility and then use it to make whatever changes you can.

Of course, in a "game" like this one, even being in the game may not be enough to be able to make changes... in any case, as long as Google is making the rules, those are the rules we have to play by.