View Full Version : Does Title Tag Placement Matter In Regards To SEO
Chris
06-28-2004, 05:27 PM
In SEO, it's generally the case that you can ask 10 different experts the same question and almost always get 10 different answers. A general consensus in this industry is a rarity. However, there is a sense of agreement concerning the importance of title tags. But, among programmers and designers, there is some confusion on whether or not the placement of these tags is important in regards to search engine results.
An article on SEORank.com (http://www.seorank.com/title-tag-meta-description-tag.htm) notes the importance of title tags by stating: “Since the Title Tag plays a vital role in determining your site’s ranking in the SERP, you need to pay a lot of attention to the words that appear in the Title Tag and the order in which they appear. You need to develop a crisply worded Title Tag that includes your most relevant keyword phrases and performs the function of announcing the summary of your web page’s content.”
While their importance can’t be denied, I have stumbled across an interesting question: Does it matter where title tags are positioned within the HTML, in relation to SEO? The answer depends on whom you ask.
HTML rules dictate that title tags must appear within the
<header> tag. A normal page’s hypertext usually begins like this:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>
<Head>
<Title>This is the title of my web page</Title>
</Head>
At HighRankings.com (http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7338&st=0), a poster named “excel30” posed the question on the positioning of title tags within a page’s HTML. Specifically, “should the title tag always be first before the keyword and description meta tags?”
The responses excel received answered the question very well. Poster “anthonyparsons.com” stated, “It doesn't matter where it is....as long as it resides within the <head> section. It is read as the page
<title> for what it is, not where it is...”
Anthony goes on to say that neatness is a factor in title placement and goes on to give an example of this:
<title>
<description>
<keywords>
<robots>
<etc etc>
Jill Whalen, of HighRankings.com believes the nature of HTML dictates that order is not as important a consideration as title tag content. She offers these HTML examples to indicate her point:
<Meta NAME="Description" CONTENT="Your descriptive sentence goes here.">
It can just as well be:
<Meta CONTENT="Your descriptive sentence goes here." NAME="Description">
Because either style is acceptable for META tags, Jill reasons that the same applies to the order of opening web page tags. She goes on to say, “there was some controversy out there on whether it mattered if your Title tag came under the meta tags (because at the time, FrontPage put them there), but if memory serves, it was shown by others that it made no difference...I think perhaps it was even Danny Sullivan, but I might be mistaken.”
I spoke to Danny (of SearchEngineWatch.com (http://searchenginewatch.com/)) to see if he could shed some more light on this subject. He stated:
“No search engine has suggested that the exact order a title tag is placed makes a difference. So, to my knowledge, it's still not an issue. Having said all this, if someone is convinced having the title tag appear in a particular order is useful to them, they can certainly keep at it. I just don't think it's been found to have much of an impact.”
In a related article that appeared in SearchNewz.com (http://www.searchnewz.com/searchnewz-12-20040624DoesLocationOfYourKeywordAffectRanking.htm l), Jon Ricerca asks the question, “Does Location Of Your Keyword Affect Ranking?” To learn if keyword placement has value in SERPs, read more here.
Dave Hawley
06-28-2004, 10:10 PM
In SEO, it's generally the case that you can ask 10 different experts the same question and almost always get 10 different answers
Actually, you will often get 11+ different answers :)
IMO, if you write your Title tag to reflect, as best you can, what the page is about you cannot go too far wrong. I find it worth to take a few minutes to write a descriptive Title that includes your keywords/phases. Write them to help the user (not googlebot) and you and Google will be singing from the same song book.
Since the Title Tag plays a vital role in determining.....
I cannot agree with the word "vital" in regards to Title tags. There are just too many well ranked pages where the search term is not in the Title.
As for placement, anywhere in the head section seems to be fine, for Google at least.
sudhani
06-29-2004, 03:45 AM
placing the title tag anywhere, any order is ok as long as it is included in betn <head> </head> tag.
I have a simple thumb of rule: When in doubt refer to www.w3.org recommendations.
Most important reason why you need to write an "accurate" and "descriptive" title tag is that This is what makes the user click on your page.
Accurate: I prefer to recieve only potential customers. And at the same time, I don't want my visitor to get disappointed when he actually visits the page.
Descriptive: This should describe the content of the page very clearly.
These are my few quick thoughts.
Dave Hawley
06-29-2004, 03:53 AM
Most important reason why you need to write an "accurate" and "descriptive" title tag is that This is what makes the user click on your page.
Google doesn't use the Title as the description in the SERP's. Unless you use the same term as in the Title.
IMO, the most important reason why you need to write an "accurate" and "descriptive" title tag is to help with your SERP position.
Peter (IMC)
06-29-2004, 02:31 PM
According to Lee Roberts of www.applepiecart.com the proper order of the tags as described in www.w3.org is essential for SEO. He claims that he uses the w3.org recomendations in his shopping cart and I have to be honest,.. sites managed by his shopping cart software do extremely well in the search engines.
So conclusion would be that doing it right doesn't hurt. Not following all rules exactly doesn't hurt I think, but if you know the rules, why not follow them?
Regards,
Peter
DanThies
06-29-2004, 04:40 PM
This "title tag position" stuff should not be controversial. The position of the title, as long as it's inside the HEAD of the document where it's supposed to be, should have no bearing on rankings. To understand, it helps to look at how search engines work.
When you use a search engine, it doesn't look up all of the HTML code of all the pages in its database, score them all, and deliver results. The contents of pages are indexed and stored in a database. For every element on the page, the search engine will store certain information in its database. What search engines are indexing is words, so the index contains information about every word that occurs on each URL they've indexed.
For each word occurence, the search engine's index will contain things like: a pointer to the URL where it occured, its position on the page and/or within page elements, its formatting (bold, heading, etc.). Words in the title tag would be stored as occuring in the TITLE, along with which position they occupy within the TITLE. There is no reason for search engines to store the position of the TITLE tag within the page, because it is a structural element, and doing so would not help them respond to a query.
When you search, the search engine looks in the index for occurences of the words in your query. The search algorithm uses its rules to sift and weight all of the different occurences. Different indexes might contain different information, such as word occurences in link text, where the URL contained in the link, link weight etc. are important. A cached copy of the HTML might be kept in a summary record for the URL, but that's not what they use to respond to a search query.
For more information, and a very good (simplified) description of a large scale search engine, see "The Anatomy of a Large-Scale Hypertextual Search Engine" by Google founders Sergey Brin and Lawrence Page (http://www-db.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html). This information is really applicable to any search engine, not just Google. Here are a few quotes from the original paper on the Stanford "Backrub" aka Google search engine:
"In Google, the web crawling (downloading of web pages) is done by several distributed crawlers. There is a URLserver that sends lists of URLs to be fetched to the crawlers. The web pages that are fetched are then sent to the storeserver. The storeserver then compresses and stores the web pages into a repository."
Note: at this point the page has been cached, but not indexed. If you go search for the page by URL, Google will be able to find it and show you the title and a snippet. It won't show up in any "real" searches until it's indexed, except possibly as a "supplemental result."
"The indexing function is performed by the indexer and the sorter. The indexer performs a number of functions. It reads the repository, uncompresses the documents, and parses them. Each document is converted into a set of word occurrences called hits. The hits record the word, position in document, an approximation of font size, and capitalization. The indexer distributes these hits into a set of "barrels", creating a partially sorted forward index."
Note: At this point, the page has been indexed, and can be found in keyword searches.
Page & Brin's paper also describes the separate indexing of anchors/links, etc. Very educational. :D
bhartzer
06-29-2004, 05:04 PM
Dan is right, as long as it's in the head area it's just fine.
While I agree with Dan that the position of the title tag should make no difference to SEO and rankings, I believe that the paper referenced also mentions that when each word is indexed in the hitlists it also includes the location of that word in the code, up to the first 4096 positions.
This being the case Google does have the ability know where the words occur, and if for that reason, if not for others such as conformity to W3c, IMO the title tag should be the first thing listed after the <html> tag.
DanThies
06-29-2004, 11:14 PM
Mel,
My attempt at interpreting that post, is that you're saying they "could" consider the location of the title since they are able to determine what the location is, and not that any search engine actually does.
If you're saying something else, there's not much point arguing with you since I can't cite sources, but let's be clear that the pages have to be parsed before anything is indexed, so it's not really about position within the HTML source code.
If you just put the title where it's supposed to be, it's not even an issue, since it should be <html><head><title> anyway.
I'm just curious, are there actually *any* WYSIWYG type applications that don't put the title tag first? Anybody seen one?
DanThies
06-29-2004, 11:35 PM
I hate to make consecutive posts, but a related item ought to be mentioned.
Google does show sites in search results based solely on the keywords appearing in the page title. When this happens, if you look at the cached version of the page, they display the familiar "these terms only appear in links pointing to this page" message.
This has been interpreted by some folks to mean that the title "hits" are stored/scored in the same fashion as anchor text "hits." More likely, this is just the default text Google uses whenever the visible text of the page doesn't include the search term.
Mel,
My attempt at interpreting that post, is that you're saying they "could" consider the location of the title since they are able to determine what the location is, and not that any search engine actually does.
If you're saying something else, there's not much point arguing with you since I can't cite sources, but let's be clear that the pages have to be parsed before anything is indexed, so it's not really about position within the HTML source code.
If you just put the title where it's supposed to be, it's not even an issue, since it should be <html><head><title> anyway.
I'm just curious, are there actually *any* WYSIWYG type applications that don't put the title tag first? Anybody
Yes in effect thats what I'm saying Dan, that they do record the position of each word in thier hitlists, and while I don't thing the position of the title tag is too important G does have the capability to detect it if they chose to do so as they also record what type of a hit it is.
That being the case why not put it where W3C says it belongs? Can't hurt.
Dave Hawley
06-29-2004, 11:50 PM
Thanks Dan, interesting stuff.
IMO, Peter has hit the nail on the head with:
So conclusion would be that doing it right doesn't hurt. Not following all rules exactly doesn't hurt I think, but if you know the rules, why not follow them?
I apply this reasoning to a lot of SEO type 'things'. That is, I ask myself "Why wouldn't I?" as apposed to "Why should I?"
DanThies
06-30-2004, 12:02 AM
Agreed all, this is one of those manufactured "debates" that's really resolved by common sense. :D
Dave Hawley
06-30-2004, 12:10 AM
common sense
Arrhhhh! Wash out your mouth. There is a lengthy discussion in another thread on this forum where a certain member insists "common sense" should not be used in SEO.
jawn_tech
06-30-2004, 09:44 AM
As for whether a title in general is "vital", theoretically it seems it could. Among, let's say, fruit suppliers, Site A's top profit-product may be oranges. So suppose their title mentions oranges and not just fruit. Yet, they have tons of pages with apples content. Site B has equal amount of PR and apple content, but their title mentions 'Apples'. Same for Site C, which just mentions 'fruit supplier'. My guess is site B gets top billing for keyword 'apples', Site A wins with keyword 'oranges', and C comes in last for not being too vague. Title serves a purpose to the bot and buyer, eh?
As for title placement, which is I guess the thrust of this topic -- 'doubt it carries weight. Does a bot index a site linearly? Let's say the same thing about <robot>. Can it serve its purpose from anywhere in the site, or does it need to be sitting at the front door like a bouncer? I would think the same would apply for title -- in that a title is a title no matter where it's at. It's not like a bot is going to be impressed and say it's an 'extra special' title because it's sitting in the front row of the classroom.
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Dave Hawley
06-30-2004, 09:52 AM
The Title tag is not vital. One example of many, do a Google search for "Computers". The top 3 pages do not have the word "Computers" or Computer in the Title. If the Title tag was vital this would not be the case.
jawn_tech
06-30-2004, 10:21 AM
do a Google search for "Computers"
Did that, and the results were sites with largely different content. We agree, we just have differing views of what "vital" means.
I'm saying everything together is vital. Is PR vital? Because Apple had a higher PR than Dell, yet they came in 3rd. Are keywords vital? Barnes and Noble does not mention "books", yet they're first.
In a neck and neck race, the legs, rider - and even the nose could be vital, if a horse won by a nose.
Splitting hairs? Maybe. But to say a title's wording can make a difference, in some cases, is safely accurate. Placement however, does not.
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Intensity
06-30-2004, 11:56 AM
The Title might not be 'vital', however it can give your site a good boost. Also consider that different search engines due rate the importance of the Title tag differently. (Ex: Google with META tags).
The amount of words and the placement of the words due play a factor in my opinion and it defiantly does not hurt or take up too much time to set up the most important keywords in your Title tag.
- Many Search engines due not read past a certain amount of characters or words.
- Words placed first could have a higher relevance.
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jawn_tech
06-30-2004, 03:22 PM
- Many Search engines due not read past a certain amount of characters or words.
- Words placed first could have a higher relevance.
Intense, did you mean this was part of your opinion, or is this substantiated fact? I've suspected this before, but I've never been able to find out for sure.
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Dave Hawley
06-30-2004, 11:34 PM
Did that, and the results were sites with largely different content. We agree, we just have differing views of what "vital" means.
Yes agree, the differing views are from the word "vital". However, try as I might, I cannot find any definition that doesn't spell out that vital means needed, critical, essential, indispensable etc From this I simply cannot agree that the Title tag is vital.
jawn_tech
07-01-2004, 08:51 AM
vital means needed, critical, essential,
Well put. I retract the word and replace it with 'valuable', though you might disagree. I suppose my magic word however was "could" be. In your example, title made no difference, while in other cases, it could. Sorry I can't think of an example at the moment so I'll let it rest.
Now if only we can define the word "is"... Uh oh, this sounds too familiar...
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brettgodfrey
07-01-2004, 02:13 PM
Any of the 'tools' provided within (X)HTML that help the reader quickly identify the purpose of the page are a good thing.
Title / Keywords / Description / H1, H2 / alt etc etc etc SHOULD all assist in identifying the CONTENT.
In my book it makes them VITAL :)
ronniethedodger
07-01-2004, 09:30 PM
If you just put the title where it's supposed to be, it's not even an issue, since it should be <html><head><title> anyway.
I only found one reference at W3C where the Title did NOT appear immediately following the <head>.
<HEAD>
<META http-equiv="PICS-Label" content='
(PICS-1.1 "http://www.gcf.org/v2.5"
labels on "1994.11.05T08:15-0500"
until "1995.12.31T23:59-0000"
for "http://w3.org/PICS/Overview.html"
ratings (suds 0.5 density 0 color/hue 1))
'>
<TITLE>... document title ...</TITLE>
</HEAD>
This is in the case of PICS label for "ratings" of the document. In this case, I would assume if the Title is of an offensive nature, then the PICS label would prevent the browser from showing that Title if the Ratings System is set to on.
There may be other odd ball instances in there, but it appears to always follow the <head> element.
Dave Hawley
07-01-2004, 09:56 PM
jawn_tech, valuable, important, helpful etc I can go with :)
Vital states that the Title is needed, and it's not.
ronniethedodger
07-01-2004, 11:32 PM
Vital states that the Title is needed, and it's not.
According to the Html spec at W3C (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.4.2)
The TITLE element is not considered part of the flow of text.
It should be displayed, for example as the page header or
window title. Exactly one title is required per document.
It may not be needed, but it is required. =)
Dave Hawley
07-01-2004, 11:38 PM
Exactly one title is required per document.
Required for what?
ronniethedodger
07-01-2004, 11:42 PM
More of the spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.4.2):
Every HTML document must have a TITLE element in the HEAD section.
Authors should use the TITLE element to identify the contents of a document. Since users often consult documents out of context, authors should provide context-rich titles. Thus, instead of a title such as "Introduction", which doesn't provide much contextual background, authors should supply a title such as "Introduction to Medieval Bee-Keeping" instead.
For reasons of accessibility, user agents must always make the content of the TITLE element available to users (including TITLE elements that occur in frames). The mechanism for doing so depends on the user agent (e.g., as a caption, spoken).
That is all it says. This has nothing to do with SE's requiring it though.
But you are right Dave, it is not needed. It is just required. =)
ronniethedodger
07-01-2004, 11:46 PM
I think somebody needs to explain the Title element and it's purpose to these folks (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=intitle%3A%22page+title%22) though.
Dave Hawley
07-01-2004, 11:47 PM
Ok, I see what has happened. I was talking in the context of keywords/phrases in the Title. This is what is not vital.
However, I'm now curious to know if it is vital to have a Title tag at all in order to be indexed? Please no guesses.
I know already that the link Ronnie provided states
Every HTML document must have a TITLE element in the HEAD sectionBut it doesn't say why "Every HTML document must have a TITLE element in the HEAD section".
eventor
07-03-2004, 05:46 AM
Dave said
"I cannot agree with the word "vital" in regards to Title tags. There are just too many well ranked pages where the search term is not in the Title.
As for placement, anywhere in the head section seems to be fine, for Google at least".........
"Google doesn't use the Title as the description in the SERP's. Unless you use the same term as in the Title.
IMO, the most important reason why you need to write an "accurate" and "descriptive" title tag is to help with your SERP position".........
I think Dave is most correct on the issue of title tags. It is not important as far as Google serps are concerned
We had been on the first page without any description of the title tag, and when we added in the 'keyword' onto it, it did not improve on its position.....
But if you want your snippets to show more on the serps just to garner a few more clicks, then by all means, put an appropiate title for whatever marketing purposes that is best for your web site!
www.aircoast.com
eventor
07-07-2004, 07:56 PM
Well, we did some further testing and it seems that search engines like Yahoo(and also Inktomi) and the newMSN do give an added boost to their serps if the title description tag includes the keyword.
This observation is not apparent in Google serps, though, so for those who want to be one up against their competitors in the Yahoo and Msn serps, do take note.
So anyone else has any other observations?
www.aircoast.com
Dave Hawley
07-07-2004, 10:07 PM
Well, we did some further testing and it seems that search engines like Yahoo(and also Inktomi) and the newMSN do give an added boost to their serps if the title description tag includes the keyword.
Most definitely. I didn't think this was ever in dispute?
This observation is not apparent in Google serps, though, so for those who want to be one up against their competitors in the Yahoo and Msn serps, do take note.
In my findings Google does use the Title as part of it's ranking algo, but not to the extent that other SE do.