Yahoo/Overture Site Match? Success or Failure?

[karkfump]

Has anyone been able to determine if the outrageous pricing structure to this new indexing service is worthwhile? I am currently ranked in the top five on Yahoo for my three main key phrases (alaska hunts, dall sheep hunts, and brown bear hunts), but I paid through the old positiontech route about 5 months ago, and I am just wondering if I am going to be forced to pay the much higher rates through Overture in the future to maintain any type of position on Yahoo. My understanding is that with the new Site Match service through Overture, individuals are going to have to pay .15-.30 cents per click depending on what type of website they may have?

[bhartzer]

If you're ranking well right now, then I wouldn't pay Yahoo! or Overture anything now. As long as it's doing well now, I wouldn't mess with it.

[janeth]

I agree with bhartzer 100% If your where you want to be there is no reason to pay anything.

[VegasMack]

It is my understanding (and if I am wrong, please correct me) that Site Match:
Charges a fee for inclusion per URL.
Ranks your site by relevancy and site content.
Charges you 15-30 cents per click.

Many problems come to mind.
If you are already ranking well in Yahoo, are you going to be bumped out of position by someone that paid for inclusion?
What about those of us that paid the $299. for Yahoo Express Inclusion that are now not showing up in the Yahoo search since the changes?
What about all the money that many of us paid for inclusions (less than six months ago) to many SE that provided Yahoo and others with data at the time but no longer does so do to Yahoo changing the rules?
If you are willing to pay the $39 or $49 per URL (can’t remember which) and the 15-30 cents per click, when are the rules to the game going to change again and how much will it cost then?

I don’t mind paying the cost for express inclusion if it is reasonable to help launch a new site and then let the site be ranked on its own merit.

I have 3 new clients that after presenting the facts have opted not to participate in Yahoo Express due to lack of benefit under the current scenario.

I do object to paying for inclusion and pay per click.

I also object after encouraging my clients to pay for an inclusion to www.mediumsizesearchengine.com for one year, based on the premise that they provide data to a half a dozen SE only to get an email 4 months later telling me they no longer provide data to those search engines. Or worse yet when www.mediumsizesearchengine.com is bought out by www.hugesearchengine.com and that I will have to join Site Match (and spend a LOT of money) to be included now even though I paid for a year inclusion.

The search terms I use on my sites and my clients sites (all quoted at 30 cents per click) would bring too many clicks to be affordable since the click/sale ratio is historically low. A campaign for the search term “Las Vegas real estate” could easily result in 1,000 clicks per day. That would be a $9,000. a month bill that I (or my clients) just can’t afford.

I think I am going to sit on the sidelines on this SE paid Inclusion for awhile, and see what the rules (and cost are) when they inevitably change again in six months or less.

I am admittedly a novice in SEO so if I am looking at this wrong, please set me straight.

[cbp]

Charges a fee for inclusion per URL.
Ranks your site by relevancy and site content.
Charges you 15-30 cents per click.

It doesn't get you ranked any higher than you would naturally. The other benefit is 48hr refreshes/recrawls.

If you are already ranking well in Yahoo, are you going to be bumped out of position by someone that paid for inclusion?

No. Participating in Site Match or not does not affect a sites rankings.

What about those of us that paid the $299. for Yahoo Express Inclusion that are now not showing up in the Yahoo search since the changes?
Thats only for the Yahoo Directory - nothing to do with being listed in the search results (except that is a backlinks).

What about all the money that many of us paid for inclusions (less than six months ago) to many SE that provided Yahoo and others with data at the time but no longer does so do to Yahoo changing the rules?

I assume you are talking about the Inktomi paid inclusion. Paying for that never got you into Yahoo (back then Yahoo results came from Google). What you paid for was distribution and refreshes every 48hrs on the Inktomi network - Yahoo was never part of the deal when you signed up (Yahoo did own Inktomi). When Yahoo started providing there own results, as a bonus, they included the Inktomi paid inclusion sites into the Yahoo results for a while - this was bonus and never part of the original deal you would have made with Inktomi.

I have 3 new clients that after presenting the facts have opted not to participate in Yahoo Express due to lack of benefit under the current scenario.
The vast majority of site will not need to participate in Site Match.

also object after encouraging my clients to pay for an inclusion to www.mediumsizesearchengine.com for one year, based on the premise that they provide data to a half a dozen SE only to get an email 4 months later telling me they no longer provide data to those search engines.
I don't think you are telling the full story here. I presume that you are talking about Inktomi - you would have got exactly what you paid for...ie distribution on the Inktomi network. They did discontinue the service, but eevryone got what they paid for. Neither Yahoo or Inktomi ever said that paying for the Inktomi network of SE's would get you into the new Yahoo.

CBP

[VegasMack]

Since Yahoo! partnered with Site Match I am unable to locate my site on theses SE that I paid for inclusion on 1 or more URLS:

AllTheWeb
Alta Vista
Inktomi
Prior to the formation of the Yahoo! Site Match partnership, my sites were listed on the above referenced SEs and could be found in the Yahoo! Search Index.

Quote:It doesn't get you ranked any higher than you would naturally. The other benefit is 48hr refreshes/recrawls
I believe I said “Ranks your site by relevancy and site content.”

Quote:
I don't think you are telling the full story here. I presume that you are talking about Inktomi - you would have got exactly what you paid for...ie distribution on the Inktomi network. They did discontinue the service, but eevryone got what they paid for. Neither Yahoo or Inktomi ever said that paying for the Inktomi network of SE's would get you into the new Yahoo
Prior to the formation of the Yahoo! Site Match Partnership, my sites were listed (and ranking to various degrees) on the above referenced SEs and could be found in the Yahoo! search index. I might me led to believe that I did get my moneys worth and the timing of my falling from theses search engines was merely coincidental if it were only on or two SE or one or two sites. But that was not the case. Only last week one of the SEs has pickup one of my sites after a mysterious absence since mid April.

Believe me I am not looking for a conspiracy. Just answers. The only other factor that could have affected my disappearing act in the above referenced SE was my participation in LinksTOYou. However you stated in another thread:

Quote:

Links to yo ucan not hurt you - no matter how bad they are.
I suppose if the rest of my sites reappear with ranking since I have stopped participating in LinksToYou we will have answered that question. If they do not reappear then the answer is not so clear.

I do really appreciate your input though.

-Mack

[cbp]

Since Yahoo! partnered with Site Match I am unable to locate my site on theses SE that I paid for inclusion on 1 or more URLS:

AllTheWeb
Alta Vista
Inktomi

Prior to the formation of the Yahoo! Site Match partnership, my sites were listed on the above referenced SEs and could be found in the Yahoo! Search Index.


When did your pay for inclusion with Inktomi expire? You still should be in Inktomi SE's if that has not expired. Yahoo should not have affected that. I would contact your 'supplier' and ask why.

Altavista is a different SE and paid inclusion there is different again.

UNLESS - there is some sort iof penalty been imposed - as you paid for inclusion, you are entitled to an explanation (thats what you pay for)

CBP

[VegasMack]

Copied from Inkomi website
SEARCH SUBMIT
Inktomi is no longer accepting new subscribers to its Search Submit™ program. If you're interested in joining a similar program, our partner Overture Services now offers a new program called Site Match™. Please click here to learn more and sign up.


Copied from AltaVista website
Overture Site Match(tm)
Search results on AltaVista are powered by Yahoo! Search Technology. For fast submission to the Yahoo! Search index via the Overture Site Match(tm) program, Click Here.

Copied from AlltheWeb website
Site Submission
Search results on AlltheWeb are provided by Yahoo!. For fast submission to the Yahoo! Search index via the Overture Site Matchtm program, Click Here.
The Partner Site PFI program has been discontinued. Legacy Partner Site PFI customers will continue to receive distribution on the historical AlltheWeb network until their subscriptions expire.

My Inktomi subscriptions expires some time in 2/2005
My Alta Vista subscriptions expires 8/2004
My AllTheWeb subscriptions expires some time in 2/2005

[cbp]

My Inktomi subscriptions expires some time in 2/2005
My Alta Vista subscriptions expires 8/2004
My AllTheWeb subscriptions expires some time in 2/2005

I would be making big noises with these, as they should still be running. Get on to who ever your vendor of these was... you should still be getting what you contracted for (unless banned - ie do not meet content/quality guidelines). I have seen statements from Yahoo staff to that effect.

I had an Inktomi one, that just expired last month and they were still crwling that every 48hrs until then - fortunatly for me, the site still ranks well naturally.

The altvista one used to run seperatly and was not part of the Inktomi network.

CBP

[karkfump]

From my experience, you will be lucky to even get someone to complain to. I signed up for the Inktomi indexing service with one url less than 6 months ago for an annual fee of $39 through the positiontech.com website, and after the switchover with Yahoo and the overture deal, I have never even been able to access my account again.

[VegasMack]

Well, back to the original question and point I was trying to make. I can not afford (neither can my clients)$49.00 per URL and 30cents per click.

I will wait this one out on the sidelines and see what develops in a few months as the game will most certainly change again.

I doubt there is a lot of Realtors that can afford a PPC campaign that could possibly run $9,000 per month, so if Site Match does not get a lot of participation, Yahoo! Will most likely rethink their strategy.

They will have to if they genuinely want to bump Google out of the #1 Position.

Just my 2 cents worth.

-Mack

Ranked in top five is good indeed. However, you need to decide what your goals are. If you get enough clicks - don't pay Overture; if you think you'd be better spending some cash and getting more hits (leads, sales...) go for it.

I run one site that has #1 position for two major search phrases on Yahoo! in a multi billion dollar industry segment. None the less we do pay a few bucks a month to leave no room for competition above our placement. The fact is, even #1 position is two (and sometime more) positions below a sponsored spot. By the way, we never paid Yahoo! or anyone else for our link inclusion. My guess, the relevance and a good ration of key words in a header/URL/META tags/body, still work.

On the other hand another site I manage paid for inclusion of three links to iNeedHits.com to appear on AskJeeves and their network. They just sent a message letting us know of "renewal specials". I checked our stats and apparently we did not get one click from that deal... I just finished writing to them letting them know about that waste of money.

[incrediblehelp]

Hasn't LookSmart proven this business model to be a failure already?

[Alchemist]

Personally, I don't see this Yahoo program lasting through the end of this year :-)

[apply75]

Site Match is just a change name by Yahoo to separate it out from Inktomi (which was charging alot less per click) There attempt to try and have i sound differnet has just confused people. SiteMatch is Inktomi Paid Inclusion..And Inktomi is now the secondary search of Yahoo...Im not sure if Site match also feeds altavista, alltheweb etc...they may just be using inktomi for the backend search for all the engine companies they bought..

If you dont know how the search engine relationship works you really shouldnt be charging clients to list them in the engines...

In my experience site match and overture just dont pull in enough traffic compared to google...bottom line not worth it...paid inclusion should really be used for large dynamic sites that have a problem getting their content in yahoo organically.. Ive noticed that despite so much of the serps page being sponsorded listing from overture or site match I still dont get the traffic or conversions I used to..

[Gary Golden]

Optimize! Optimize! Optimize!

That is all I can say!


Good Luck

[zookeeper]

I doubt there is a lot of Realtors that can afford a PPC campaign that could possibly run $9,000 per month.

That might depend. A single sale could bring the realitor a 9K commission and some branding along the way. If no one else is willing to pay, it may become cheaper for you. I feel it's not about how much you spend; it's about what is your ROI. I would gladly spend 9K if I can convert 30K/month in sales.



so if Site Match does not get a lot of participation, Yahoo! Will most likely rethink their strategy.

As incrediblehelp stated "Hasn't LookSmart proven this business model to be a failure already?". I was thinking the same, remembering the early days after L$ and MSN signed a big agreement to make you pay for inclusion then pay per click. We had over 100 sites submitted in MSN (thru L$) before this agreement and had to start paying .15/click on all of them. I think they gave us $10 in "free" clicks per domain or something like that as a grandfather clause for sites submitted before the agreement. Our advertising cost went thru the roof, while we were still in the same positions, getting the same number of sales, but just spending an a$$load more.

I cursed L$ from that day forward as did many other webmasters. We simply removed our sites and quit giving them any money. Although that happened a few years back, I still loved that day when MSN dropped L$ :-)

[VegasMack]

Zookeeper,

Quote:
That might depend. A single sale could bring the realitor a 9K commission and some branding along the way. If no one else is willing to pay, it may become cheaper for you.

That $9,000 per month would take a $300,000. sale at 3% providing you were not a split with the Broker (which most of us are). From the time someone visits the site and actually buys and closes the transaction is approximately 90 days(that is when you actually get paid). This is providing you made the sale.

So far as “Branding” that would be a good deal for a National Company with franchise operators.

Quote:
I feel it's not about how much you spend; it's about what is your ROI.

As I stated earlier the ROI isn’t there in Real Estate.

Lets assume you do make that sale and it closes in 90 days. Now you have $27,000. out for advertising, you have grossed $9,000. You split that with your Broker 75/25. And you have your other operating cost, fees and dues. You are only in the hole about $17K.

Quote:
I would gladly spend 9K if I can convert 30K/month in sales.

As would I. If in fact you know of a way for me to gross 30k/month I will pay YOU the $9,000 as a consultant. You can probably use it more than Yahoo! ;-)

Thanks for all the GREAT Posts guys!

-Mack

[richmar]

I too was using Positiontech for Inktomi inclusion. At present, our home page is still showing well in Yahoo, but no other pages. My recommendation is that if you have several deep pages you want to appear in Yahoo, register those pages only. That is my plan of action.

BTW, does anyone know if Inktomi listings are still being utilized by any search engine or portal?

Richmar

[damarzee]

I have two sites that use Overture through Position Tech and I have yet to understand or see why I spent nearly $200 to have these sites listed?

Actually, I only signed on because I thought there might be some level of control or some level of choosing click price, but there appears to be no level of control at all.


I paid the setup fees and then placed $50 in each account. There was no option for rate, so it's 30cents a click. There is no place anywhere to select search terms, so I can only assume they are taken from your Meta tags. The sites have been listed since April and have only generated 11 hits through Overture, yet they get plenty of traffic from other search engines.

Previously, using Inktomi, the $39.00 per year inclusion fee provided hundreds of monthly visitors. I don't see the value of Overture.

Bottom line, I am wondering just what the $97.00 balnce just sitting there is doing for me. Either I am missing something that is poorly explained by Position Tec or I just don't understand Overtures real function.

Any Thoughts?

The two sites I have listed with them are:
Dreams Alive Magazine -http://www.dreamsalivemagazine.com and
Photo Web Ads - http://www.photowebads.com

Thanks!

David

[edhan]

It will be a success IF I get my ROI from the sales otherwise a failure. My main concern with advertising is will I be getting sales. If yes then I will still continue my advertisement. If not then I will move on with other methods.

Edward

[espectations]

I read an interview (it was very long winded but worth the while) with one of the Yahoo engineers.

A lot was cleared up for me in that interview. He said that paid inclusion should be used to launch a new product and or service.

I.e. if you want your products and services to be listed within 48 hours, then you should pay for sitematch.

He also said that pay-per-click should be used for advertising campaigns - I agreed with that.

In general, I optimize my sites, ensure that it contains very good quality links and content and I am quite successful - have been over the last 7 years since I started doing this. (7 years ago nobody even thought of SEO and SEP)

The Yahoo changes as well as Google dancing never affected my sites adversely - maybe one or two positions but not one of my sites have ever been kicked out of the engines.

Besides the above, where I live we cannot afford 30 US cents per click so I have to come up with other plans to make my sites work.

I study the search engines and directories and spend a lot of time on it. Besides that I make very sure I understand the rules of each engine so that nothing I do could be seen as spam etc.

In general it is my opinion that people misunderstand the purpose of pay-per-click advertising and think it will increase their positioning - it does not.

Just my two pence.....

[Smell-vin]

I have never paid anything to yahoo and get as many hits from them as google and they are increasing all the time I think yahoo will soon overtake google as Number 1

[www.thecelticshop.co.uk]

[edhan]

Hi Mel harris

I do agree that Yahoo is slowly overtaking Google in terms of search as I have noticed from the log that more people are using Yahoo search.

Edward

[apply75]

I do agree that Yahoo is slowly overtaking Google in terms of search as I have noticed from the log that more people are using Yahoo search.


I will have to disagree, google is pumping out press releases left and right and are very focused on search....Yahoo started with search and in the .com bust has expanded to other areas (hosting, IM, Broadband, hotjobs, corp portal, web casting, email, real estate, foreign search sites, bill pay, etc) this whole time google has focused on creating a better search....

[sri_gan]

I do agree that Yahoo is slowly overtaking Google in terms of search as I have noticed from the log that more people are using Yahoo search.


I will have to disagree, google is pumping out press releases left and right and are very focused on search....Yahoo started with search and in the .com bust has expanded to other areas (hosting, IM, Broadband, hotjobs, corp portal, web casting, email, real estate, foreign search sites, bill pay, etc) this whole time google has focused on creating a better search....


Definetely Yahoo is taking over Google, Most of the times Google now standard results... which is really not a good idea for newly emerging websites.. its like they are enforced to pay per click model.

Google even set a market trend for Link Exchange Business, I'm sure they have to revamp the algorithm, unless and otherwise these Link Exchange programs will swallow the entire Google Mechanism.

I hope everyone should have noticed how many link exchange platforms are emerging on one magic term PR .. ;) It won't take long to swallow a Mathematical Algorithm for search I guess :D.

[janeth]

If you take the phrase

custom website design

we rank in the top ten on both Yahoo and Google but we get 10 to 1

Every 10 vistiors we get from Google we get 1 from Yahoo. So I would say there are more people by far using Google over Yahoo.

Not to say Yahoo can not catch them but they do have aways to go.

[Martin Smith]

Agreed Janeth, I read an article a while age that I now can't find which was saying that although a lot of people use Yahoo, they do not seem to get to the point of clicking through the genuine SERPS. I believe in this - ignoring the quality of results for a minute, the the sheer volume of links I am faced with when I visit Yahoo puts me off using it.

[Smell-vin]

Quote:

I will have to disagree, google is pumping out press releases left and right and are very focused on search............................


Sorry if this seems rude but i am not interested in what other things google are doing. I am purely interested in search results and hits. My web logs say yahoo is as good as google for sending traffic to my site. not me.

The only problem with yahoo is there refresh rate. when i add a new page it appears on google within 2 days. it can take weeks or months to show up on yahoo . but that is not really a problem.


Mel

http://www.thecelticshop.co.uk

[Martin Smith]

Mel harris,

How do your rankings in Yahoo compare to your rankings in Google? Also, how does the conversion rate of the Yahoo traffic compare to the conversion rate of the Google traffic?

[Smell-vin]

My rankings on Google and Yahoo are wierd,some search phrases rank about the same others are complete opposites.I might rank in the top 5 on yahoo,but not in the top 100 on google and vise versa for the same search phrase. I am not sure about the conversion rates unless the customer fills in the "here did you here about us bit" and then they usually put web search or internet Which as you know is no use to anybody.

Mel

http://www.thecelticshop.co.uk

[Smell-vin]

A little off topic but here's a link you might find useful? It compares Google and Yahoo side by side just enter your search phrase. The results are interesting to say the least. http://www.langreiter.com/exec/yahoo-vs-google.html?q=


Mel

Http://www.thecelticshop.co.uk

[sri_gan]

Quote:

I will have to disagree, google is pumping out press releases left and right and are very focused on search............................


Sorry if this seems rude but i am not interested in what other things google are doing. I am purely interested in search results and hits. My web logs say yahoo is as good as google for sending traffic to my site. not me.

The only problem with yahoo is there refresh rate. when i add a new page it appears on google within 2 days. it can take weeks or months to show up on yahoo . but that is not really a problem.


Mel

http://www.thecelticshop.co.uk

Mel,

What you say is very true and I have the same experience as you do.

I suppose google has set of standard results for certains keyword may be upto 50 rankings or something which shuffles between them back and forth, so the possibility of a newly emerging business could have no oppurtunity at all in this mechanism, thats why I used the words enforced to go for pay per click model which is adsense etc.. in the other end people making business out of links exchanges for high PR websites. I can show some samples.

Well it might be just me, but thats how I see it.

[cbp]

Definetely Yahoo is taking over Google,

hmmm - how did you come to that conclusion? The evidence is the opposite. Google's market share is increasing at the expense of Yahoo:


Google Trouncing MSN, Yahoo
Hitwise today released a massive study on search trends. The key learnings include findings that:
- One in 18 online visits is a trip to one of the three major search engines: Google, Yahoo or MSN.
- Over the last nine months, Google grew traffic marketshare, while the other major search engines saw decreases. Google experienced net gains from both MSN and Yahoo, while MSN and Yahoo saw net losses of visits to Google.

http://www.marketingvox.com/archives/2004/05/27/google_trouncing_msn_yahoo/index.php?rss1

CBP

[Dave Hawley]

In a year or 2 it will be Yawho? SiteMatch will be OutaSiteMatch.

IMO, Yahoo isn't a patch on Google.

[sri_gan]

Definetely Yahoo is taking over Google,

hmmm - how did you come to that conclusion? The evidence is the opposite. Google's market share is increasing at the expense of Yahoo:


Google Trouncing MSN, Yahoo
Hitwise today released a massive study on search trends. The key learnings include findings that:
- One in 18 online visits is a trip to one of the three major search engines: Google, Yahoo or MSN.
- Over the last nine months, Google grew traffic marketshare, while the other major search engines saw decreases. Google experienced net gains from both MSN and Yahoo, while MSN and Yahoo saw net losses of visits to Google.

http://www.marketingvox.com/archives/2004/05/27/google_trouncing_msn_yahoo/index.php?rss1

CBP

CBP,

Yeah right...for now.

Yahoo has the mass reach with its IM Client so does MSN which Owns the Most used OS in this universe ;).

Do you think there is no way to take over Google?

MSN and Yahoo might look like they have no pontential on search believe me, there is a way and they will use that I guess.

At my own end user experience with Google for last 5 years... I could see the difference on it today and its was no joke when i said it.

[incrediblehelp]

Maybe Yahoo will do away with per click fee's at least!

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5245825.html

[kimbecker1]

my inktomi submit isn't supposed to end until september but look what happened to my link popularity since the end of March ...

Engine Current Min Max Avg

Alltheweb 262 134 8,152 4,080
AltaVista 268 133 1,080 657
Google/AOL 319 28 319 89
HotBot 271 134 271 213
MSN 265 128 265 206

Look at the all the webstats ... the alltheweb & altavista ... drop is huge ...

When I use the marketleap popularity check this has happened to pretty much every body I check my site against.

If inktomi is honoring the contracts then why the huge drop?

[cbp]

inktomi is honoring the contracts then why the huge drop?

Honoring the contract has nothing to do with backlinks!!! - are they still crawling you every 48hrs.

CBP

[kimbecker1]

Well marketleap indicates that they are.

But why on March 30th did the recognized links drop from 8000+ to 240?

My site didn't change ... I have built up all kinds of links with google.

From your comment I take it that the backlinks and crawling aren't related but what HUGE change occurred on March 30th that would cause 7899+ links to no longer be recognized?

I used to be at the top of the inktomi searches and now I can hardly be found.

[VegasMack]

kimbecker1,

I hate conspiracy theories, but since SiteMatch cranked up, could there be some “Squeeze Plays” on site owners going on that have previously participated in paid inclusion to push these subscribers of SE controlled by Yahoo to participate in SiteMatch.

Benefit of Doubt - As I stated earlier, I did participate in a linking program that could have gotten all my sites penalized. There hasn’t been enough time since changing all my sites yet to see if that was the reason for my disappearance from the SERPs, but I don’t think that would be the case with everyone that has posted.

I would like to think that Yahoo would be smart enough not to open themselves up to a Class Action suit and much bad press by such a scheme.

Time will tell.

-Mack

[Ify]

From my experience, you will be lucky to even get someone to complain to. I signed up for the Inktomi indexing service with one url less than 6 months ago for an annual fee of $39 through the positiontech.com website, and after the switchover with Yahoo and the overture deal, I have never even been able to access my account again.

I have same experience with Inktomi paid inclusion. Back then, Inktomi promised distribution on MSN, Yahoo! and others. 3 months after I paid for 3 url inclusions, Yahoo/Inktomi changed everything. Now, none of my urls appears on MSN (MSN is now featuring Overture), Yahoo or anywhere else. My submissions were through IneedHits. I can't login to view any traffic, nor can I get any useful answers from Ineedhits. My logfiles shows no traffic from msn, yahoo.

A lot of advetisers have been ripped-off by the Yahoo purchase of Inktomi. A Class action suit (like the one that was the precursor to Looklisting decline) may be just a matter of time.

Bottom line: sit out the Site match.
-Ify
African Clothing & Accessories (http://www.africastyles.com)