Dealing with difficult clients

[Reesa Marchetti]

Hi,

I have clients who are very slow in providing me with the necessary materials to complete their sites (printed brochures, artwork, photos, high-resolution logos, etc.). Often they think a fax or blurry xerox copy will do and I can make them clear again!

I sympathize with the difficulties in finding all these materials and getting them to me. Many of my clients are Internet newbies and little of their copy is digital.

Does anyone have a clause in their contract requiring clients to provide the content within a certain time period or pay in full? If so, when the client does get it together, do I charge a late fee?

Has anyone dealt with a similar client problem?

[jestep]

I would say, dont give them anything until you have all of the materials that you need from them to complete the job. If your job requires information/documentation from them, explain to them that you cannot get the site up until you have all of the required information. You could also make a clause in your contract that says that the client understands that they must provide certain information before the project can be completed. Im assuming that you bill based on a 1/2 now, 1/2 when complete or some similar arrangement. Most people wont want to lose any of their money, and if they have nothing to walk away with, then you lose nothing if they do walk away.

[bhartzer]

Personally, I make them pay half up front and half when it's complete. Then they end up asking me why their website doesn't rank very well--to which I respond, "not enough content".

[southplatte]

I do the half up front/half on completion payment as well. I have a client that I made a site for over 1 1/2 years ago, and I still do not have all the content for it yet. I did recieve full payment already, as well as payment for maintainence on what is there so far.

Just take a portion of the payment up front, and do not deliver until full payment is recieved. If they take 6 months to get you the content, you have still recieved partial payment, have not had to work on it (due to lack of content) and can go on to other projects.

[Stooge]

I work similar but have been taking payments on completion per site item (forums, pages, databases)

I won't work on anything until the last item has been paid for and I have clear concise instructions and content for the next bit of work. I also clearly state that payment must be recieved within 7 days of completion of work. Reason being to cover any costs on hosting etc which I may pay out for.

One of my clients vanished earlier this year and his site was 80% finnished. Maybe I won't hear from him again, but at any rate I've been paid what i'm owed.

[vwebworld]

50% payment up front (as you can see) is
fairly common, however, that may not solve
your problem - getting content in a timely manner
and in a useable format.

I suggest specifying in your website design agreement
(I hope you use one) the responsibilities and
deliverables of both parties. The agreement should
say that the client is to provide xxxx by a date
certain. You can also say what happens if the client
does not provide what they are supposed to provide...
which could include the forfeiture of their deposit.

Hopefully, it will never come to that... because such
a happening may "cost" you in the end. Eventhough
you have some cash for your trouble - you may also
create a disgruntled (former) client, who may bad
mouth you all over the place.

~Roland

[CAWeb]

50% at start 50% on completion may be fine for most jobs - but those that you are constantly checking for content on ... time is money. Quite often the clients who keep these project on the back burner are not billed appropriately. A lawyer would bill for each phone call, etc. We spend considerable time and effort try to get the project to completion - but I doubt that was considered when the project was proposed.
A business adviser gave me some advice which I will share with you. Build the proposal around project units rather than the project as a whole. At each unit state your duties as well as the clients. Quite often they ask how long to get the site up and running - don't quote weeks - quote time frames around your providing the next unit based on when ever they deliver the needed content.
You may also want to build in clauses such as: content delays may incur additional charges; specify the formats that you receive content in - digital images - extra for scanning, soft file format for text - additional charges for content received in print format ...
Quite often I get clients hand writing content so we have a list of area students who provide wordprocessing services. I always have them contact the students as you never know where that next summer job opportunity may appear.
Hope this helps!

[clambam]

I have a client who hired me to do a web page in April of 2003. They still don't have anything on the web. I put together some design ideas, they picked the one they wanted, and I've been waiting ever since for the content to arrive. I met with them in March of this year when they said they wanted to get the site up as soon as possible; I'm still waiting for photos, text, etc. to arrive.

Luckily I did this on a time and materials basis so I've been paid for my work to date. I call or email every two weeks or so to remind them. When they're good and ready, I guess I'll finally get me the content.

[taberniki]

Hi there. To address your question, our contracts are based on a 50% now, 40% in a month and the rest when finished model, which is payable by a predetermined date and listed in the contract.

Though we insist upon predefined due dates for the production/delivery of images and text files, some clients are inevitably late producing these materials.

To circumvent cashtrickle, we exact pre-defined penalties if client supplied and required material or payments are late without just cause (amounts and percentages vary with each contract but are rarely used).

We have found that these policies, when clearly oulined to the client from the beginning and enforced within reason, help to limit unnecessary cashflow interruption and serve as an incentive to the sometimes forgetful client...

On the other hand, our secretary does a wonderful job of reminding potentially delinquent clients of their obligations, greatly reducing the need for such measures.

Hoping this helps you to decide on a course of action.

[lanihudg]

I have the similar problem and I bill some up front and the rest on completion. The wall I run up against is that the client figures he/she can add/delete/modify content until the site is "complete" to their standards then they will owe the remainder. So, I get behind on deadline because they say change this to blue, then gree, then gold, then back to blue,then green again, etc.

I have started giving one proof and making the corrections then launching the site. Additional changes after this date mean more charges.

Also, when they sign the contract they know that if I ask for content and don't receive it within 30 days, additional fees may be charged and the deadline won't be met. That way I can start on other projects and when they come back to me, I can charge them a fee to fit them back on the schedule.

The contract also states a timeframe (three weeks) from receipt of ALL content. I don't start any work until I have all of the content. Usually, since they have paid a deposit (which is completely non-refundable) they are quick to give me the content.

Sounds good on paper, but I still have issues with some clients....

[steve0]

Does anyone else do Requirement Definition Documentation?
Statement of work;
Project testing and acceptance criteria;
Time table;
Milestones;
Deliverable assigned to people;
Cancelation policy;
Penalty clauses;
and payment schedule?

Everything should goes as planned..and it not.. it's on the clock.

[tomhouy]

I've often considered putting together a comprehensive checklist of information I will need from the client to create a web site for them, and handing it to them right from the get go.

It's a waste for them to pay for a domain name and web hosting, if the project is going to sit on the burner for a year or two.

With regards to shoddy copies of their logos and other materials, explain to them that if they do not provide it in the appropriate format, it will drive up the overall costs dramatically. There's a huge difference between cutting and pasting a Word document they provided, and having to retype several pages of faxed text.

If they give you some distorted printed copy of their logo, and you have to re-create a clean copy of it in Illustrator, bill them for the extra time involved.

In situations like that, you can also ask them where they got their letterheads/business cards printed, then contact their printer and request the logos. Most print shops have been cooperative with me in the past when I've done this. Just explain to them that you are working on a web site for one of their clients, and they requested you contact them for the logo. They're generally not going to give you a hard time because it can cost them their client as well.

[G[dot]com]

My experience tells me that this problem is the WORST as a webmaster.

My common phrase with clients?

I BUILD WEBSITES, I DON´T DO MAGIC.

I think that once the client realize -because of the time that passed, because of your impossibility to go forward in your work as a designer- ...when they see that they CAN´T have a "coffee chat" about their *great ideas* and then let you do the rest...by that time we webmasters have two paths:

1) Take an now-or-never attitude: i.e. "If I don´t have the content by next week I won´t go on" (because this is not *free* for us in terms of stress, time wasted thinking, time discussing, etc etc)

2) Ask the client: "Would you PAY extra money to get your website contents writen?...Now that you began to really *understand* the importance of this work, you may be open to pay extra to have it done."

In my case, all my experience ended like option 2) because the real problem of the client is not (always) the lack of money (that is almost *never* the problem)...the problem is that:

a) the person in charge has nor marketing, neither slighest writing skills,

b) the person in charge is a shop owner or a chief somewhere and will never accept he/she is not *GOD* therefore can do anything and perfectly. They blame their inefficiency on their lack of time.

b.1) the person in charge realize he/she is incapable to produce the required content, so her/she begins to *misregard* the project...saying that it is not *so* important after all. "If we could live without a website all this time!".

c) there is NO person in charge AT ALL!!!! So everytime you call them to ask for content/payment/design options...you always talk to someone different FOR THE FIRST TIME!

d) a b/b.1 and c altogether!!!!! >:O(

So...my advice is: try to deal with websites that you (at least) think you may be able to write the contents given some coffee chats and unordered information via email and phone calls.

And if you are not confortable...GIVE IT UP! You are a creative mind, you need to be fresh, to feel light, you need to have your head thinking fluently. And you only achieve that state without stressing yourself out in situations such as these described.

My modest opinion.

Kisses to you all, webmates!

Gi

[deltatrend]

Concerning rather simple projects, say a new site under $2000, then I wouldn't get into a Requirements Document. It would eat too much time.

I do put some time in upfront to create a template. It is a small risk, but then I know what their expectations are and can build that into the quote and agreement.

My usual agreement states our responsibilities, based on the template and a reference to the timeframe. It also states their responsibilities, including to "provide feedback in a timely manner (usually withing one week) and maintain consistency of requiremants and expectations."

By this time, I generally have an idea of what materials they have and ask them to mail any items to be scanned. I will have stated the approximate number of pages and images and told them there will be an additional fee if they want me to find images. Also, I limit draft revisions to two.

In the agreement, there is a duration of, say six months, or whenever we both agree that the project is complete, whichever comes first. The final 50% is due at the end of the duration.

Hmmm...maybe I should have just posted a sample agreement. Anyway, we all still have difficult clients, but after some experience, I have tried to cover the most important holes.

[clambam]

Here's a slightly off topic anecdote about how I missed making a big payday at the expense of a client.

Among other things, I do signage packages. A signage package is a necessary but onerous part of the architectural/interior design process; you have to spec out the design and location of every piece of signage in and around a building. I did one for a big catalog publisher a few years ago through a local architect and they approached me a few months ago to put together a much smaller package for a facility in the Mid-West. Since the signs were already designed and it would just be a question of putting in the new locations and otherwise re-editing my last package, I agreed to do it for short money. I did include a stipulation in my proposal that if there were major changes after the completion of design, the changes would be billed hourly at my regular rate.

Sure enough, after I'd submitted an essentially complete package I was contacted and told the company had been purchased by a French publisher, and could I redesign all the signs with the new logo? Let's call the French company "XXX." The new signs should say "XXXUSA." No problem, back to T&M and they'll end up paying about double the original fee. However, one of the things they wanted was an exterior building-mounted logo that included their web site address. In the interests of moving things along I decided to check out their web site. Sure enough there was an XXX.com, but nobody had bothered to register XXXUSA.com! I called the client and reminded them of the oversight. Had I been a bigger wheeler-dealer and/or shmuck, I could have bought the domain name myself for $35 and then ransomed it to them, probably for $50-100K. I'm such a nice guy though, that's why I'll never get ahead...

[imvain2]

One way to put a "fire under their butts" is to simply build the site with the information you do have, and the pages or areas that you weren't given any information for, just put type a few paragraghs quickly not worrying about grammar, spelling or factual information.

That way when the client sees that their website with this information in it, that doesn't match their company they will start correcting it or ask "Where did this information come from?" or what is this information?. Where you simply respond "This is temporary information we put in the website to get a feel for the site layout, since we currently do not have enough information to launch the website and make it presentable to YOUR FUTURE CUSTOMERS.

And of course the above formentioned 50% first and 50% upon completion for the payment.

[zbatia]

I have relatively simple approach. I do design in chunks:
1. The basic pages/logo/color set
2. Some extra on pages (mouse over menus, messages, etc)
3. META-tags and web marketing - related updates
4. Search engine submissions and search keyword management
5. Anything extra? $XX/per hour!
6. I do provide 30 min tutorial on good web sites' features and SEO (free of charge)

The chunks cost less and seemed more affordable. I do charge up-front.

[cyberious]

I think the tough clients are drawn to me for some reason. I almost always run into some sort of misunderstanding, usually to due with not reading my contract completely, and never mentioning any questions.

Recently, I just had 2 clients completely change the contract on me, even after signing it. I always disclose all details in my contract, this being the 50% down, then balance upon completion, prior to receiving deliverables. However, these clients blatantly told me "NO... I'll send you 1/3 now, 1/3 later, and balance at the end"... One of them wouldn't pay the balance til after the site was up and running!!!

I am not into argueing for my own rights, but if you sign a contract, isn't that legally binding? What are these contracts for, if people change them where they see fit?

I don't know how to handle payments in 3's, especially, since the site goes by so quickly at that point (sometimes) that the client had to send me 2 payments in a week.

What about the ARGUEMENT OVER PRICE? > I have had a few clients argue with me over my price. Then, continuously hound me for support afterward, without opting for the "Support and Maintenance Pkg". How do you handle previous clients that constantly want email support? (This client bought templates from me, then constantly bugged me about HTML and CSS, etc).

And lastly (I have to mention this one): A company contacts me last year, in Sept. I send them a proposal, they don't get back to me til last month. So, I send out a new contract (I don't have the old one any longer), after having a phone meeting. Next thing I know, it's a month later, I get an email containing their Parent company's website.... ? I don't know what this is for. I quoted them for an OSCommerce install / customization, and they send me all the files from their parent company's website, lots of Flash files, etc. ::: What to do? Do I cancel the contract and write a new one? I don't even know what they want, since they never respond to emails....

I think alot of the problems stem from the TABOO discussion over how to write a contract properly. There isn't much out there for new businesses to go by (in our field)... Just pieces of the puzzle.

[JSeverson]

I generally require a client to pay half up front and the final half on completion of the project.

In my contract, I provide a list of what materials the client must supply.

In the "Completion Date" clause of my contract, I state that the client and I must work together to complete the project and that we both agree to "work expeditiously to complete the project within ## weeks of the design approval".

I follow that statement with the following: "Please note, failure to provide J.T.S. Design, Inc. with any needed materials and/or information could result in a prolonged deadline that we will not be accountable for."

[hs4u]

In my contract I have:

50% deposit is to be paid before beginning the work and the balance upon completion or within 30 days of start date, whichever comes first. You, the Client, agree to supply myCompany text and graphics as needed in a timely manner. Provided the text and feedback are available as requested, myCompany agrees to have the site completed within XX days.

So far I have gotten the money and finished the project in the time allowed for. If it is getting toward the 30 day mark I call and remind them of the contract and the items I need and in the format needed. I remind them I have allowed the stated amount of time for their project and if they go over that I will not do a rush and drop my current clients for them. In a nice way of course. Then I follow up with an email. So far so good!

Good luck.

[noahps]

I agree with Steve0. Of the documents he mentionned, I believe a Statement of Work is the most important. I include a schedule of deliverables and include in it tasks that are the responsibility of the client. I also include a payment schedule. For larger jobs, it is often billed monthly. For smaller jobs, I do the 50% up front, 50% on completion. However, I also add to that 40% on target completion date if project is delayed due to the client's responsibilities for content.

Good Luck.

[Silene]

I specify materials that I will need from the client in all my proposals - and the acceptable formats, and the anticipated timeline. I explain what might cause delays or incur extra charges. Another designer I know will specify that a job officially goes on the back burner if the client doesn't come through with approvals or materials within the specified timeline. Clients do vary - some hand everything to me on a platter, some need a trip to the dentist :-) When you get one of those, all you can do is explain that you need to proceed - if not on their job, then you'll be moving on to something else. Most businesspeople understand the necessity of cash flow.

For small jobs (most of mine are) I find that a fairly simple and loose proposal works out very well, and that the small business owners are the most reliable and trustworthy. For a good client who has trouble producing content I will go the extra mile to help them. Play reporter and ask them 20 questions. Go take some pictures if you have to. For larger jobs, and the deeper the pockets, a more detailed contract is absolutely necessary. Before doing web design I spent many years in some hardball businesses. Do not let yourself get jerked around - just flat out don't let them do it if you ever suspect that's what's going on. Never forget, you've got something they want - remind them of their interests and obligations.

If you get burned once, just learn the lesson and revise your contracts for the next job.

[valk97_goose]

Seems we all have the same problem... (including customers that always want something for nothing)

After learning the hard way, I charge 25% deposit (soon to change to 50%) I require the customer to provide all photos, images and text. If they want help with the text I now charge for wordsmithing. The contract always has a project timeframe.

My contract price is only valid for one month.

If the project is delayed due to lack of materials then I send an interum invoice (work stops until that invoice is paid).

Site construction proceedes in a temp area where the client has URL access so that we can discuss progress.

Upon completion, the final amount must be paid before the site goes live on the final host server.

Great topic...
Thanks...

Bruce

[cyberious]

I provide a similar outline of work, as VALK97_GOOSE - but you mentioned stating the proposal is only good for a month. I have done that also, but when I submitted a second proposal, with a higher price, my client contacted me with words about the higher priced proposal. Then what?

I don't how designers do it, especially without a team (like myself) to back me up. The last project I completed, I actually lost money on, due to unforeseen circumstances (hired one of the forum moderators here, and they didn't provide the services they promised, and I had to hire someone else). A little off the topic, but how does one account for unforeseen circumstances like that, in the proposal? Or do we?

[Silene]

Hello Cyberious,
All of us lose money on the occasional job - preferably it's with eyes wide open (like when we might learn something new and extremely valuable to our experience).

I also state proposals are good for 30 days - but I pre-qualify my clients before even spending the hours required to write it up. By the time they get my proposal they are 80-90% likely to accept it right away. In a rare circumstance where 30 days goes by and client comes back in 60, I personally would cut them the slack.

As for unforseen circumstances, if proposal covers all bases there's no such thing, really. Yes, of course all designers encounter them - what's important is how you prepare for and deal with them before they become an issue. If proposal says "client is responsible for providing product photographs" and they don't, then you must tell them it's time to hire a photographer - and you will contact a couple you know for quotes - then let the client know what the additional cost will be. Or, let's say you need to incorporate a database where none was expected before - well, that's a biggy - and hopefully your proposal had already explained exactly what the client was getting for the initial proposal amount. It's up to us to go over that (gently with the good clients) and explain what was covered, what isn't, that what they are now asking for will require extra money and exactly how much.Then - contract with somebody you know personally if at all possible. And it's incumbent upon us when subcontracting to understand the subcontractor's terms very clearly too.

All of us take a hit now and then. Every, every business does. It's experience that allows us to hedge our bets.

[valk97_goose]

Hi cyberious

I only use the one month when necessary. If I know that there is no problem with the customer then its of no consequence. However when the customer does nothing for two or three months then I will submit a new contract, this will either stir them into action or just cancel the unwanted job (they will leave you hanging on the vine!).

To cover unforeseen circumstances, I document in my contract that anything outside the contract (which has to be specific) needs to be agreed by both my company and the customer and a price adjustment is then made and agreed upon. I have been caught before with the "little bit extra" and gone down the mine... You know you just can't afford some customers!

Bruce...

[Bald Dog]

Hi,

I teach all of my designer clients not to provide proposal without an advance payment. Any project is more than $1,000. If the prospect is serious, s/he should cough up the dough before the proposal. My take is that a proposal is NOT a sales tool, but the first step of the project. It is a document that solidifies an already made conceptual agreement. And the proposal should be as strategic as possible, not a list of tasks. So, it is not “creating a ten-page web site” nut “enhancing global branding efforts wit ha projected improvement of 20% in international sales.” The buyer must stipulate this to add value to your service. Otherwise you become just another labourer.

And every year you should get rid of the bottom 15-20% of your clients. That is called growth. You cannot grow only by working harder. And if you stop working for hourly rates, you can never lose on projects. If you are the conduit to that 20% increase, and it is actually $1,000,000 per year, no buyer in his or her right mind will risk losing a potential $1 million per year by pissing off the designer.

Am I making sense? I hardly ever do, but maybe now.

[pmhb]

Just to add my penny's worth. There is a lot of very sound advice which should help you to overcome those difficult clients.

I always approach clients as though they know nothing about the requirement and seek to bring them "on side" by education. Sometimes the education involves them spending extra money because I've had to re-generate their logo or copywritten the text. Nothing like paying for something serves to focus the mind.

All-in-all, it's about communication. I hate just sitting around waiting for a client. They have other things to do and you designing their site is probably a low priority in their day to day life. Keep in contact, speak with a smile, it denies any teed-off attitude you may be feeling.

Whith this approach I have managed to win over very tiresome clients and become an indespensible team memeber paid a monthly consultancy fee. Clients like to feel important, massage their egos a little, it pays in the end and by all means, charge for those extra items, it's your time they're paying for.

pmhb

[MarcThai]

Good question. Through painful experience, we have devised a contract that spells out clearly what each party's responsibilities are. We charge a flat fee for our work, so we need to be able to strictly control the website production process. We do this by defining exactly what we will and will not do in our Website Design Contract. We also ask for 50% deposit up front, and the rest within 30 days, whether the website is finished or not.

We start by asking the client to fill out our website design questionnaire (see it on www.holtww.com). Webproworld members are welcome to use the same form if you wish.

We have a clause in our Website Design Contract that says we do not start work until we have received all content, including text and pictures.

To avoid problems with clients changing their minds about colors, layout etc as we work, we prepare a graphic represntation of the design first. Once they accept it (we will make up to 3 designs if they don't like the first one) we will not deviate from that design or color scheme. Any additions they come up with once we start work are charged extra.

If anyone would like a copy of our contract I will be happy to supply it on request. We have very few problems these days with clients.

One other thing you might like to consider, although you didn't mention it. Price is always a big factor to both the client and webmaster. We used to quote the lowest possible prices because we thought we would get a lot of business that way. We did, but the quality of our clients was so poor that we often had more trouble with them than the contract was worth. The last straw was when one client came in and abused us because we offered him a much nicer design than the one he asked for. That was the only time I ever asked a client to get out of my office. From that time on, we increased our fees. We lose a few contracts as a result, but we figure they aren't worth the time and trouble anyway. The clients who are prepared to pay for quality work are much easier to work with and better payers into the bargain.

I hope this help.

[greeneagle]

This is indeed a difficult business. Marketing yourself and your products and services is more difficult than most industries. You always have to show them what they need. The average business owner, even techy types don't have a clue when it comes down to Internet intricacies, what it costs and why. You must show them what they are getting for the $.

Many are new business owners, extremely busy and still yet do not realize that marketing and advertising isn't cheap!

Many I have dealt with don't realize the value that a well designed non-ecommerce site can bring.

We have found that a 1/3 down, 1/3 at a mid-milestone completion and 1/3 on site launch works well.

But it doesn't stop there, we even build a site that needs frequent update for less up front and recover in the maintenance phase - Always sell maintenance up front if you can.

A client always wants to know:
1) What am I getting?
2) When am I getting it?
3) What will it do for me?
4) How much is it going to cost me?
5) When will it cost me?

Just as any other small business, a Web Design Company or Freelancer must be concerned with establishing a “Front-end” business system that will facilitate the streamlining and minimization of nonproductive time, allowing focus on productive, revenue generating activities. You must discern what the customer wants as soon as possible and convert that to their reality and satisfaction in a short time to be successful. The tools provided in ProposalKit greatly accelerate the front end process with, interview, estimating, design and proposal materials, including spread sheets, legal documents and more. The kit also includes; development contracts, multimedia agreements and forms, development, deployment, marketing and maintenance materials. This software is an absolute necessity as far as we are concerned. The first site we designed using these tools more than made up for the price of the software.

More on our Webmaster Resources Page about "Business Systems", "Customer Interface", "Quoting" and "Pricing" at: http://www.mountaineagleweb.com/Resources/resources1.htm#Quoting

I hope you find something useful there if you choose to follow the link.

Kind regards in a tough business,

Ken

[greeneagle]

This is indeed a difficult business. Marketing yourself and your products and services is more difficult than most industries. You always have to show them what they need. The average business owner, even techy types don't have a clue when it comes down to Internet intricacies, what it costs and why. You must show them what they are getting for the $.

Many are new business owners, extremely busy and still yet do not realize that marketing and advertising isn't cheap!

Many I have dealt with don't realize the value that a well designed non-ecommerce site can bring.

We have found that a 1/3 down, 1/3 at a mid-milestone completion and 1/3 on site launch works well.

But it doesn't stop there, we even build a site that needs frequent update for less up front and recover in the maintenance phase - Always sell maintenance up front if you can.

A client always wants to know:
1) What am I getting?
2) When am I getting it?
3) What will it do for me?
4) How much is it going to cost me?
5) When will it cost me?

Just as any other small business, a Web Design Company or Freelancer must be concerned with establishing a “Front-end” business system that will facilitate the streamlining and minimization of nonproductive time, allowing focus on productive, revenue generating activities. You must discern what the customer wants as soon as possible and convert that to their reality and satisfaction in a short time to be successful. The tools provided in ProposalKit greatly accelerate the front end process with, interview, estimating, design and proposal materials, including spread sheets, legal documents and more. The kit also includes; development contracts, multimedia agreements and forms, development, deployment, marketing and maintenance materials. This software is an absolute necessity as far as we are concerned. The first site we designed using these tools more than made up for the price of the software.

More on our Webmaster Resources Page about "ProposalKit", "Business Systems", "Customer Interface", "Quoting" and "Pricing" at: http://www.mountaineagleweb.com/Resources/resources1.htm#Quoting

I hope you find something useful there if you choose to follow the link.

Kind regards in a tough business,

Ken

[venividi]

Most of my clients don't provide material on time for the same reasons listed by G dot com. Since there is nothing I can do about this - and I am NOT prepared to drop the client, or refuse the job, I:

1) suggest a short site to begin with and/or
2) In the terms and conditions section I mention a limit of time from confirmation of order (usually 2-3 months) for full payment, whether the site has been completed or not. Of course, I also add that, in this case, I garantee I will complete the site upon reception of the material and within a reasonable amount of time, but I do not garantee the delivery time.
I think it's a good compromise.

Valeria

[hal]

Hello Reesa,

The first words of our support program are, "We strike a virtual agreement with each client. We invest a high level of dedication to our mutual purpose. You, in turn, agree to work with us, to provide the information and perform the tasks necessary to make your site effective, and to do so in a timely manner."

That has served well as a wake-up call. However, Steve0's brief comments really strike home. I'm going to revise my own stuff to be spell out each step along the way, under clearly identified headers.

As for your current slow-completion account, allow me to recommend my own favorite legal firm... Smith & Wesson. <grin>

Hal

[MrCursor_]

When dealing with the business I always try and
get a feel for them and how they operate by visiting
the business if possible. When not an option, I will
secret shop them under an AKA to get a handle on what
and how they do business. That can tell you a lot
if they are business people or my fav term:

Shiftless Time Wasters

Its then all a written agreement. They give me what
I require upfront for logo, material and content.
They are charged 100% upfront so they don't forget
what they are doing. I make it an expense for their
accounting!

In the agreement I state in the document the terms
and liabilities. I set dates for pre-production,
production and post-production. (I look at web like
a movie). At the end of a set time, if no content
for pre-production is provided, they are informed
in writing and another copy of the agreement with
their sigs is mailed to them with highlights.

If after that a personal phone call is placed to
the person incharge (if no one is set for that it
is the person running the company or division) that
is called. Failing there, a form letter is generated
and mailed with tracking and proof of delivery to
the company informing them of a ten day period to
commit to providing materials.

No go after that, a letter comes terminating the
agreement, no work done, no money back and that
company will remain on file for 180 days as
delinquent for fulfilling their part of the
agreement. This way if I should go to court, or be
smeared I can have WRITTEN documentation it was
their inability to live up to their end that failure
occured.

Just like ANY business I implore all of you to NOT
forget everything written. No emails or phone
calls will suffice in a court of law as well as
the written documents, secured by the Post and
proof of delivery that they screwed up their end
of the deal. Sure phone logs and printed email is
good, but nothing beats the signed, sealed and
delivered papery goodness of binding documents of
agreement.

Its more work managing it, but when you are talking
about re-paying 1K or more that you've already
spent up 6 months ago because of improper docs,
we are talking time worth spent. Document, document,
document. That's how brick and mortars do it, so
should we all do that.

That's my 18.6 cents (up from 2 due to COLA's)
Cursor_

-This printed out and archived in triplicate should
anyone try and sue me for the content provided ;)

[hal]

Hi G[dot]com,


I BUILD WEBSITES, I DON´T DO MAGIC.

Ouch! I just caught that! That's trouble. Y'see, I build Websites. I am also -- for over four decades (ever since I was knee-high to a magic table) -- a practicing magician! Now what do I do? Sheesh! <grin>

Hal

[tiffyk1980]

This is an actual clause in our contracts:

1. Once look and feel is agreed on by Client, Webmaster will then complete site, according to the look and feel of the home page. Webmaster is not responsible for information that is not given to them in a timely fashion. Webmaster will do the best with what they are handed to by Client. If Client cannot get information to Webmaster in a timely fashion, Webmaster will complete site with what information they have and bill Client for final amount. Once Client has said information, Webmaster will input that information free of charge. Any information above and beyond agreement, Webmaster will then send new Proposal with amount for said additions and Client can approve or deny with out charge.

This seems to work for us. We rarely ever have a client drag out once the contract is signed. However, the ones we don't use a contract on, drag on forever. We are using nothing but contracts now :)

Hope this helps,
Tiffany

[techboy]

We had so many issues like these. Now in our contract it's 50% up front and 50% on completion and if the content for the pages takes to long that not our problem we charge the second regaurdless. Eventually we developed a CMS system so we can now tell the clients to fix there own spelling mistakes we don't have to charge them $65/hr to correct spelling wich is unfair to a client and unfair to a webmaster. Our CMS includes SEO right in there and builds pages that target phrases perfectly we have a 72yr old woman with no experience except word proccessing built her own site and it's perfectly optimized 50 pages and it only cost her $900 in whole including domain/hosting/graphics. We steer our clients from websites with alot of graphics to websites that rank and do somthing they appreciate the honesty. We have taken out the confusing steps for people that just don't know instead of making it difficult.

This was the only way to go for us, and it's made our customers really happy. I think with the majority of these problems the customer should have been qualified properly. Yes that's what I said, qualify your customers you don't have to work with everyone.

[TrafficProducer]

Less content=Less Traffic for the client, so they will lose out.

Remind them that they site is less than a
Needle in a Haystack....

Tell them:-


I've heard of CD-ROM's with a claimed 32,085,746 DOMAINS, 32 Million website addresses, (24,388,464 .com, 4,726,112 .net, 2,964,927 .org and 6,243 .edu). Their are a lot more available website extensions than shown here for example .biz and .info.

[gospelstudios]

Check out this part of my contract:

"Completion Date. Gospel Studios and the client must work together to complete the website in a timely manner. We agree to work expeditiously to complete the website no later than _________________________.
If the client does not supply Gospel Studios complete text and graphics content all webpages contracted for within six weeks of the date this contract was signed, the entire amount of the contract becomes due and payable. If the client has not submitted complete text and graphics content within two months after signing of this contract, an additional continuation fee of 10% of the total contract price will also be assessed each month until the website is advertised. "

My contract is based on Dr. Wilson's (wilsonweb.com, awesome person, by the way!). He has extensive veeery well written matterial...

God Bles...

[Bohak]

G[dot]com earned the quote of the day. Well said G[dot]com

I guess my 2 cents would be:

If its not a "win win" situatation.
I'll choose "no deal"

"Agree to disagree" with your client and decide that you cant work together for whatever reason, be it too little time, money, skill, communication etc.

It will save alot of wasted time struggling to pry out, or decipher requirements given by the client over time consuming "coffee chats" that lead to nowhere but a tab at Starbucks.

Unless your at the Starbucks in HB on a Sunday afternoon in August. The scenery is sometimes worth the time and coffee bill.

-Bohak

[ADAM Web Design]

Having read this thread for a while, it is surprisingly simple to solve this issue in most cases:

What's the answer? There are two:

1) Include hosting or maintenance from a specified start date in every contract, and make it an ongoing monthly fee. Once a client realizes they're paying $10 CDN or more a month for hosting for a site that's not finished plus ongoing maintenance on what amounts to partial content, they'll start handing you whatever you want whenever you want it.

2) Promote the site in search engines, and make your client aware of it. Tell them of the lag factor and how it will reach most engines in a month or two. If the site's incomplete at that point, they'll be driving away potential business and profit. Note: If you have site stats as part of the hosting package, make your client aware of them.

I've only ever had one case where this hasn't worked, and it's because the company has undergone a change in ownership and the whole company itself is lost, never mind the website.

Try those two tricks. If they don't work...well...you're on your own. :) Seriously, I don't know, but these usually do.

[Dealideal]

50% deposit upfront. All materials/specs MUST be supplied withing 2 weeks OR I have the right to terminate the contract and keep the deposit. Actually did this once.

[G[dot]com]

Hi everybody!

I just wanted to thank everyone of you who posted in this topic because I think that it is working as groupal therapy. :o)

It is a paradox but for a side it makes me feel better to hear you. To see that I am not the only one, and that this problem knows no frontiers...

Difficult clients seem to be a world wide epidemy!

On the other side, realizing this makes me feel a little hopeless...because I can´t say "It´s me! I am the problem! Look at all the rest, happy with their clients...I just have to sit down and learn from them..."

No. We all face the same situation.

Maybe you will agree with me that all these happens because the Internet is very recent compared to other media, other occupations and business...etc etc...

Even there are no 100% clear laws to give order to it.

So we are making it day by day, in an essay-and-error way of learning and achieving our goals.

By the way...HAL! You should make public your skill as a magician! You will get tons of clients!

Now, take that rabbit off your head...! And make 100US with this piece of paper to pay drinks for all of us!!!!

LOL

Kisses Webmates!!!

Gi

PS. And thanks to Britt or Garrett for the importance given to my words posting them at "the quote of the day" section.

...When you see yourself there at Page One...Oh! it feels like being a celebrity! ;oP

[acornwebworks]

I have a few rules in life. One is that I don't do stress. Another is that I don't count my chickens before they hatch. As a result, if someone takes forever to get me stuff, I don't stress about it. I've gotten half my money and now have free time to work on other clients sooner than I had expected.

As an aside, I book all the domain names as being mine until I get completely paid and also provide hosting, so I have a great deal of control. I can take a website down so fast your head would spin :-) I can also 'conveniently forget' to renew a domain name.

Fortunately I have had almost no problems in getting money over the past 9 years.

But...I have used a sly method on rare occasions that I thought I'd share.

With bright-eyed earnestness...and a straight face...I say to people trying to get out of something:

"Oh that's too bad. I was really looking forward to working with you more. But don't worry. I understand. Things happen. We'll get your website right down...oh, about half an hour? Is that OK? Then we'll get right on the search engines and other marketing. I'm sure we'll be able to get all that removed within 48 hours, no problem."

You want to see people start back-pedaling?!?!?

"Oh, oh, well, no, I don't want the website down. And you say we're on Google? No, no, we don't want to lose that."

"Oh, I'm sorry. I must have misunderstood you. I thought you said that you weren't going to [do whatever] as required in the contract. Which is fine, people do have to break contracts sometimes and I'm not going to be a hard-ass about it, but then we have to remove the website and all that other stuff as well. I'm sure you understand."

It's worked like a charm every time :-)

Of course, it helps if you're willing to let a client go, which I am. And because I'm willing to, I'm not backed into a corner, but am operating from a position of strength. If someone wants to nickel and dime me, cheat me, violate contracts, and so forth...why would I want them as a client?

So they learn they can't bully me and they've learned what the consequences would have been. And it was all done very pleasantly and no one has any hard feelings. (And I get a good chuckle out of it every now and then since I'm careful to never actually say that they were on search engines, just that we'd go look and remove any traces we found :-)

Kendall

[G[dot]com]

If someone wants to nickel and dime me, cheat me, violate contracts, and so forth...why would I want them as a client?

SAY NO MORE.

:o)

ps. Listen to the multitudes crying: "we want acornwebworks for president!!!" :o)))))

[tedjordan]

i ask for 50% down, and I always get a response like,
"you're not buying anything...I don't see you needing
a deposit for equipment or anything. Why do I have
to put so much down?"

how do you respond to this? Most of my web sites are
for small business, and sell for $2000.

thanx
ted

[valk97_goose]

i ask for 50% down, and I always get a response like,
"you're not buying anything...I don't see you needing
a deposit for equipment or anything. Why do I have
to put so much down?"

how do you respond to this? Most of my web sites are
for small business, and sell for $2000.

thanx
ted

You are spending your time, which directly equates to money. If you were not working on this customer's site then you would be working on someone else's who payed the 50% deposit.

You are committing your time; the customer must commit their dollars, unless you are running a charity.

I ask for 25% and I will not carry out any work without it no matter how small the job is. I got burnt a few times and had to get my money through the courts, which is a real pain.

Bruce...

[Brit]

I did my first website without a contract. It's been months and months of adding and changing. My client took forever to send me the necessary materials for his site. I have added what he has given me, finished the site as verbally agreed, and I sent him an invoice stating that the remaining information will be added free of charge. He has continually sent me email with addition after addition and change after change. I have to draw the line somewhere, and I don't know what to do. Also, one of my clients gave me the deposit to start his website, and I have started on the design, but want to give him my contract now. Is it appropriate to give him the contract now, and what do I do about the client who keeps requesting more and more? Your help is much appreciated about this matter.

[greeneagle]

DanF,

Surely you are not granting exclusive service to one client only!

Ken

[DisasterMan]

He has continually sent me email with addition after addition and change after change.

Oh yeah! I know that one SO many times.
I include a clause that covers this, and also any ommissions that may slip my mind (despite the adulation of thousands, I am not yet quite perfect! ;)

It goes something like this:

Minor Addendum, Errata and Ommissions further to the completion of the project 1)AS CONTRACTED 2)WITHIN REASON will be completed at no extra charge. The definition of 'Within Reason' is at the discretion of Disaster Management.

I don't write it quite like that, but 1) and 2) are so highlighted to show they are seperate important clauses.

I don't like writing hard-ass contracts however, so I always make it clear to the client that I am working with them to have a finished product that we are both proud of, and will always try to do what it takes to make sure there are no glaring ommissions/errors. But that doesn't go into the contract, so it can't be held against me!

The key thing is you have to sit the client down (not literally - I know sometimes you never even meet the client!) and calmly explain to them that they are being unreasonable (clause 2!) and that they are asking for things above and beyond the scope of the original remit.
If that doesn't have the required effect, or as an alternative, simply reply with a quotation for the work requested. Either they agree and cough up, or they leave you alone to work with someone halfway reasonable.

And as for CMS (Content Management Systems for the newbies) that gets a BIG thumbs up. You can pass the donkey work of minor corrections on to the client, you get to charge a SHEDLOAD more for building a versatile system that is technically more complex, and if the client is too slack (or sometimes too dense) to use the beautiful CMS you have built for them, you can charge silly money to do something that you don't even have to fire up DreamWeaver for! Nothing like earning money doing something that takes a P1 with a 56k modem to complete!

Hope this helps, and big-ups to all the other posters, a lot of good advice that I will be taking on board myself - sometimes we all need to be a little sterner!

Fun and GFX,

DisasterMan

[jcopley]

For commerce sites, I quote a fixed design fee, and an estimate for the full project. At the end of design, I will quote a fixed fee for the remainder, and sometimes get a chunk of it up front.

For smaller sites, I usually get a 25% or so, just enough to make sure the client has skin in the game.

I never wait to publish a site until I get payment. After all I can always yank it down, if they don't pay up (which they always have, so far). On the contrary I strive to get the site up and running as fast as I can, even without all the expected content.

Sites are never complete anyway. You should plan for, and structure your billing for, continuous change.

Joe

[DisasterMan]

He has continually sent me email with addition after addition and change after change.

Oh yeah! I know that one SO many times.
I include a clause that covers this, and also any ommissions that may slip my mind (despite the adulation of thousands, I am not yet quite perfect! ;)

It goes something like this:

Minor Addendum, Errata and Ommissions further to the completion of the project 1)AS CONTRACTED 2)WITHIN REASON will be completed at no extra charge. The definition of 'Within Reason' is at the discretion of Disaster Management.

I don't write it quite like that, but 1) and 2) are so highlighted to show they are seperate important clauses.

I don't like writing hard-ass contracts however, so I always make it clear to the client that I am working with them to have a finished product that we are both proud of, and will always try to do what it takes to make sure there are no glaring ommissions/errors. But that doesn't go into the contract, so it can't be held against me!

The key thing is you have to sit the client down (not literally - I know sometimes you never even meet the client!) and calmly explain to them that they are being unreasonable (clause 2!) and that they are asking for things above and beyond the scope of the original remit.
If that doesn't have the required effect, or as an alternative, simply reply with a quotation for the work requested. Either they agree and cough up, or they leave you alone to work with someone halfway reasonable.

And as for CMS (Content Management Systems for the newbies) that gets a BIG thumbs up. You can pass the donkey work of minor corrections on to the client, you get to charge a SHEDLOAD more for building a versatile system that is technically more complex, and if the client is too slack (or sometimes too dense) to use the beautiful CMS you have built for them, you can charge silly money to do something that you don't even have to fire up DreamWeaver for! Nothing like earning money doing something that takes a P1 with a 56k modem to complete!

Hope this helps, and big-ups to all the other posters, a lot of good advice that I will be taking on board myself - sometimes we all need to be a little sterner!

Fun and GFX,

DisasterMan

[jcopley]

I have a few rules in life. One is that I don't do stress. ...

...Of course, it helps if you're willing to let a client go, which I am. And because I'm willing to, I'm not backed into a corner, but am operating from a position of strength. If someone wants to nickel and dime me, cheat me, violate contracts, and so forth...why would I want them as a client?

Well said, Kendall. Without exception, the most miserable experiences I have had were with clients who were nickel-and-diming me up front. You will never make them happy. Avoid them if at all possible.

Joe

[turtlwaX]

I have encountered similar issues in the past, and have taken some measures to combat it.

Phase 1 - Detailed User Needs Assessment - Every project that we endeavor into includes a phase that produces a Detailed User Needs Assessment. This stage of the project defines the application and its scope as well as the content required to fulfill the needs of the project. Our clients pay for this and when we hand over the document and discuss with them its meaning we bundle in the next phase

Phase 2 - Market Research and Asset Collection/Management - Essentially we grab as much as we can from client at this phase, assign homework, then persistantly ask for the homework to be returned to us. Almost always we edit any textual content we recieve for readability as well as for SEO purposes. Equally any imagery requires manipulation, so we find that it is our duty to take an active role in the acquisition of content. Our clients pay for this phase as well...under the scope of the project as defined in the Project Proposal.

Since we have employed these tactics to every project from 2002 to current, we have drastically reduced problems with content gathering and have launched some very successful online campaigns.

Hope some this information will help you folks out.

turtlwaX

[greeneagle]

I recently dealt with a client that wanted to help a neighbor kid get a start. She had just graduated from Auburn University.

They called me in for a visit with the premise that they were finally ready to update after a year and a half. During the meeting they asked if I would work with the neighbor kid to help her get a start and conveyed that she would be doing graphics only.

2 weeks later I rcvd a call from here wanting to know why her web changes couldn't be seen and wanted to know what I had done to prevent her from FTP'ing new changes.

Upon review I found:
1) She had ftp'd to the wrong directory
2) Graphics changes were jagged edged and unprofessional
3) She had changed every page on the site in the process
4) She had copied another page as a template and not changed titles tags or anything in the header for 2 additional pages -- dupe titles, & metas on 3 pages

I mean we are talking a nightmare from hell! Nothing like what the clients had described when they wasted my time for a face to face meeting. I had no idea they were going to give her (an inexperienced virgin maiden) full ftp access...with rights that bypassed my code review and approval position...

They even had the audacity to get upset with me when I explained the problems and why I would demand that they take my company name out of reference at the bottom of the page if they permitted this to occur..

Sometimes you have to fire a gnarly client that wastes your time...

You get what you pay for, but don't waste my time with false representations!

That's what it comes down to sometimes.

Ken

[Brian_ilp]

Registering the domain name yourself and controlling (or providing) hosting is an important lever.

I have only had problems with 2 small clients.
One decided to get his 'I can do better than that for free'-student-nephew to do the website. His maintenance and hosting period was almost finished so I didn't (couldn't) object. The student transfered the domian name within days but continued to point the DNS to the original website on my server. I let it go for a couple of weeks but then informed the ex-client that I would be removing the website within 1 week unless he wanted to renew maintenance and hosting. No reply, so I pulled the plug. 6 months later there is still no website on the end of the domain name.
I don't feel guilty. I work to earn money. I try to be as flexible as possible but if I think someone is abusing me then I say so and if the abuse continues I take action to protect myself.

Another client asked for a website for a luxury holiday home and after the look-and-feel proof was accepted he bombarded me with up to 5 emails per day about design decisions, design philosphy, keywords, meta and alt tags, SEO, SEO, SEO etc etc.
I told him politely that I could either build the website or talk about building the website but not both. If he wanted a course in website marketing and deisgn I would give one at my hourly fee rate.
Then we got into a big argument about wordsmithing. He delivered lyrical prose and I turned it into keyword rich text. He objected and re-wrote the text stripping out almost all the keywords.
He insisted that I use exactly his text and also that I achieved top search engine ranking.
He had paid 70% by this time.
He also wanted me to include statements which where blatently untrue ("tennis courts nearby": In fact there is only one and that is in a members only club. "sports room" : untrue, its a large smelly basement with no facilities that might be turned into a sports room if they can solve the damp problems) I refused to publish those lies.
At that point my wifes father became terminally ill and she went home (abroad) for a couple of weeks. I was left with 2 business to run and told the client that there would be an unavoidable delay of about 2 weeks. He went ballistic and wrote a 10 page email about how his lover had died in his arms and how he had had to tell his mother-in-law face-to-face and she promptly died of a heart attack so his death-story was better than my death-story and I should finish his website according to his instructions within 1 week or else. He was the boss and I had to shut-up and do what I was told. Big Mistake, Bad timing.
I stopped work on his website for 3 weeks (I dont work for people who dont respect me). He went ballistic again, changed the password on the hosting server and got his neighbours son to finish the website.
He hadn't recond with the Copyright Laws. All the photographic material was mine (85 photos) and I had NOT assigned the Copyright to him. Unfortunately I had already sent him the prints.
I threatened to report the Copyright infringement to his ISP and also to 3 other sites where he used my images for advertising. He threatened to sue me. I called his bluff (his holiday home did not have all the required permits from the authorities ;-)
He also checked with his ISP who confirmed that they would be obliged to delete his website if I could prove Copyright infringement.
We came to an agreement that he would not use my website images but that he was allowed to re-scan the images.
I lost about 200$ and have a great story to tell, especially to his competitors.
Effectively he had to pay to have a new website built. His 'new' website is difficult to find in Google and he spends money on ADwords, hopefully its costing him a fortune.

The lessons I learned:
- Get your own dedicated webserver (Total control over hosting and his email!).
- Register the domains yourself (eg. via Bulkregister).
- Get to know the client before you agree to do the work.
- Turn down a client if you dont feel comfortable with their attitude.
- I feel better about a client that I (effectively) rejected than about a client who is screwing me.

Also:
- Sell maintenance contract with a clause to review the time needed after 6 months. More changes mean more time.
- At around deadline time tell the client that it is time to publish the website and that any new changes will fall under the maintenance contract and be done after completion. Some people think that Internet is like printed paper ... you have to get it perfect first time because you are getting 10,000 copies printed!


Have fun, win awards.
Brian

[mmgdoc]

Personally, I make them pay half up front and half when it's complete. Then they end up asking me why their website doesn't rank very well--to which I respond, "not enough content".

That is a good excuse bhartzer, until one thing happens; Until that client runs into someone who actually knows the REAL answer to that question, then you probably lose a client.

I am hereby putting the web design pros of this forum on friendly notice of the following:

Millennia Marketing Group, soon to be commonly referred to as MMGCorp, is moving quickly into position to take the SEM market by storm. Our mission is to show business website owners who aren't placing well on the search engines EXACTLY why that is, and we are already proving it by providing our clients with 100% money-back guarantees on top SE placement. And I can assure you bhertzer and others, that you can only BS your clients for so long before eventually they will learn the truth. Of course by then you have long since earned your buck and as for their site's shortcomings, you can be like old mother duck and just not give a quack.

Please excuse my little rant here. I just get so ill (being someone who actually UNDERSTANDS SEO) when I see web designers use this kind of excuse to cover thier own lack of knowledge.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, either learn the skill, hire someone who knows it to provide it for your clients, or QUIT SELLING IT. You can't sell something you don't have and stay in business. And MMGCorp will bring that realization to this industry just as it is true in every other.

Here is a way of seeing it. You buy a hot rod to race at your local drag strip on Friday nights. The guy selling you the car tells you it produces 400HP to the rear wheels. But after paying the guy and watching him drive away with your money, you take it into your shop and put it on the Dyno. You find it only makes 300HP to the rear wheels. Are you ticked? Do you buy another car from the guy? Do you buy ANYTHING from him EVER? Do you tell your friends about him? You do, but he does not like what you are saying. If you can't produce it, DON'T CHARGE AS IF YOU DO!

As for topic....50 up front with 50 on complete live. Clause stating timelines for material deliveries to you. Failure to comply (within reason) terminates contract immediately. Another clause stipulates that all monies paid on this contract are considered "fully earned" at time of payment. This relieves you of refunding monies on a project that is cancelled due to ANY action or inaction on the part of the client.

Ciao!

[carju1]

I am hereby putting the web design pros of this forum on friendly notice of the following: .....Millennia Marketing Group, is moving quickly into position to take the SEM market by storm. Our mission is to show business website owners who aren't placing well on the search engines EXACTLY why that is, and we are already proving it by providing our clients with 100% money-back guarantees on top SE placement. And I can assure you bhertzer and others, that you can only BS your clients for so long before eventually they will learn the truth. .....
If you can't produce it, DON'T CHARGE AS IF YOU DO!

Ok mmgdoc I'd maybe take friendly notice if I could find you on the first page of google for at least one of:
Search Engine Marketing
Search Engine Optimization,
Search Engine Maintenance,
Search Engine Submissions

Heck I'd probably settle for a google page 2, 3 ,4 or even page 5 for any of your major terms, the best I could find was page 2 for your old company web site using the company name Millennia Marketing Group as the search term.

I also don't find many Web Designers charging 2,000 US for the SEO service.

Regards

Carju1 - Moderator

[DrTandem1]

Firstly, I do small sites. So, no contract is necessary other than the very general terms that are understood, usually over a few e-mails (I keep copies).

I am very flexible. Some clients take months, others a week or two and everything in between. I don't look at the slower-moving clients as a problem. I simply do other work in between their schedules. It's actually an advantage. Sometimes, I have more than one client that are moving at warp speed. I have to slow them down to keep up with them. In other words, use their schedules to your advantage.

I also do the half now and half upon completion. If it's good enough for a hitman, why not me? However, I give them a sample page layout for free. This is an all show and no go version. They can suggest anything they want from colors to logos to content.

I focus mainly on the layout and the colors. This can take some time, but it gives us both a good chance to see whether we can work together or not. Some I have turned down politely. Better to waste a bit of time and effort to determine they are flakes, before money is exchanged for services. I have yet to have a paying client dissatisfied and, more importantly, I have yet to have a client that didn't pay.

Once we decide we can work together, we have usually agreed upon the layout. I offer three packages at different prices. We then decide on the added features such as forms or Flash. I then give them an estimate. I ask for 50% to get started. I have never been turned down at this point.

If they ask for something extra, I always advise them of the added cost before I do it. There are never any surprises. I am very up-front.

I never rush the client. During our get-to-know-one-another sample period, we discuss logos and artwork. If they have something that is not digitized, I'll scan it after it's snail-mailed or pick it up locally. I can usually enhance any graphic that is not web ready. If I can't, I tell them. Better than that, I will even show them by putting it on their sample. By the way, their samples are viewable to them via my site.

If during the sample stage they are slow to respond, their sample page expires:

http://www.drtandem.com/expiredX.htm

This is known as the "take-away close", if you are familiar with sales.

I think the important thing to remember is that your client is not an interruption to your work, they are the reason for it. I work a lot, because I work alot, because I work alot. Think about it.

[mmgdoc]

I am hereby putting the web design pros of this forum on friendly notice of the following: .....Millennia Marketing Group, is moving quickly into position to take the SEM market by storm. Our mission is to show business website owners who aren't placing well on the search engines EXACTLY why that is, and we are already proving it by providing our clients with 100% money-back guarantees on top SE placement. And I can assure you bhertzer and others, that you can only BS your clients for so long before eventually they will learn the truth. .....
If you can't produce it, DON'T CHARGE AS IF YOU DO!

Ok mmgdoc I'd maybe take friendly notice if I could find you on the first page of google for at least one of:
Search Engine Marketing
Search Engine Optimization,
Search Engine Maintenance,
Search Engine Submissions

Heck I'd probably settle for a google page 2, 3 ,4 or even page 5 for any of your major terms, the best I could find was page 2 for your old company web site using the company name Millennia Marketing Group as the search term.

I also don't find many Web Designers charging 2,000 US for the SEO service.

Regards

Carju1 - Moderator

Brand new site Carju1. Less than 2months old. It will be there soon enough. Did you check the listings for my clients? I built the website and decided to move this service to the forefront of my service offerings when I saw how well our company's SEO service was working for our clients.

As for your inability to find $2000 SEO: Yeah, it usually starts at more like $4000.

[artyboy]

America has a great slogan.... "the customer is always right". I like it, and i stick to it. WE are the web design professionals, not the other way around. There are no problems in life, only solutions.

If a client does not or is not able to provide content for the site, find a way to get it, or physically go and get it.

You can either gleen it off brochures and other advertising material or go to their offices and interview staff/management to get the information you need.

Also, don't rely on email as a form of nagging clients fo info - phone hem, or visit them.

When you first introduce yourself to a new client and you've had the problem of getting content in the past, EXPLAIN it to them, and let them know what the charges are for you to interview their staff, or get it off their advertising material. You cannot penalise a client or "suddenly" come up with more costs as this will only alienate them. The first meeting is the most vital - give them all the info verbally, and have a printed version to backup what you've said later on down the line (if it's THAT much later!!).

You can't treat clients like little bags of money running around oweing you for your time. Show an interest in what they do, who they are, and what they stand for, let them know how your process works and explain potential hiccups based on your past experiences.

Make sure YOU are organised! Set project schedules. "By friday 26th I will need this and that photo/s. If you can't provide them, here is my quotation for coming to your office/factory and taking digital photo's myself". If they default, get on the phone, ask them where the photo's are and would they like you to come and take some if they're too busy.

The problem isn't only with the client, it's also with us! And this, by the way, is based on my past experience!!!

Hope that helps.
Regards
Art

[DisasterMan]

That is a good excuse bhartzer, until one thing happens; Until that client runs into someone who actually knows the REAL answer to that question, then you probably lose a client.
etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah


Jee-zus man!
I thought this forum was a place for us to share tips and techniques, not to aggresively promote your business and slag off everyone else in the process.

What IS the 'REAL' answer to the question then?
Don't be afraid of some competition - there are only so many clients in the world you can take on at once, and if you help the industry as a whole improve it's performance and reputation, it will massively increase the potential client base for you, me, everybody, by making more people willing to buy into our arcane services.
Sounds too good to be true?
So tell me why similar services cluster together? Surely a street full of restaurants only curtails each others business?
WRONG!
When everyone knows that street is full of restaurants it INCREASES traffic to the various eateries, because people know that they have a good range of choices, and all the proprieters know they must provide a good service to keep their individual customers loyal.
I used to live on King Street in Hammersmith, which has LOADS of restaurant of varied styles. As a result I ate out more often, went to a greater variety of restaurants than before, and still visited my favourite regularly (Rafiques - a GREAT indian)
I even once spent £15 on bangers'n'mash (Sausages and mashed potatos) - but it was the best bangers'n'mash I have tasted in my life!

There is some real scalping in the SEO business - I know of one co. spending INSANE money every year to keep their keywords top when they are top anyway! Great story but no names I'm afraid - don't want to screw people's business!

Isn't this a bit off topic though - we are talking about dealing with clients here, not SEO itself. True, if you aren't telling your clients the whole story they will go elsewhere should they find out, but no-one here has suggested lying to clients as a profit making technique (we aren't politicians or the CEO's of multinats!)
bhartzer was giving AN example of A situation which in that case may well have been true, but, *amazingly*, every job and every client is different.

Would you mind being a little more helpful? Yeah your on topic bit was relevant, but not exactly earth shattering and a little bit of elaboration on those 3 lines would go a lot further than your self-aggrandising essay.

Your helpfully (hopefully)
DisasterMan

[DisasterMan]

America has a great slogan.... "the customer is always right". I like it, and i stick to it. WE are the web design professionals, not the other way around.

Sorry - I'm a bit confused - if the customer is always right, then what is the point in asserting that we are the professionals?
If the customer asks for something wack (which they do - frequently) but are still right, surely we can't go 'but i'm a professional, listen to me'?
When I'm not working I am a customer, and trust, I am frequently NOT right! ;)

And just to be pedantic (I have a twisted sense of humour) what is war, famine and plague the solution to exactly? :)

[HB Central]

Reesa,

I set milestones during the scheduling of a project for client payment. Usually 25% + 25% and 50%(upon completion). Depending on the size of the project, the second stage of a project doesn't start until I get paid for the first stage.

You might enjoy checking out www.clientcopia.com for a humorous look at what others have gone through with... stupid client quotes.

Good Luck,
-scott

[pmhb]

I have to agree with DisasterMan, some of the posts have become a bit of a flame war and personal. The original questions was about dealing with payment from clients.

Every client relationship will be different in some way. I have clients for whom I've worked for many years and bill them twice a year. I have mutual agreements drawn up and signed which limits the amount of work for a set fee, anything over and above is separately charged.

New clients I try to get a feel for as quickly as possible and a "deposit" payment of between 25 & 50% of estimated cost. Clients need to know where the line is drawn otherwise we end up working for thatt wonderful modern term, negative profit!

I have found over the years it always pays, literally, to befriend clients, to gently massage their egos but have clear limits to everything including payment but in this world, 30 day invoice credit stopped sometime after the Ark finally settled on dry land.

Use commom sense, gut instinct and any other feeling you have but be honest, professional, don't undersell and define the work requirement as much as you can. A friendly relationship will always out in the end. Creatives always tend to do that "little bit extra" because we all strive to improve an idea even after the idea has been accepted. Try VERY hard to avoid this unless you are asked to by the client and will be paid for the work.

My my 2c

[mmgdoc]

That is a good excuse bhartzer, until one thing happens; Until that client runs into someone who actually knows the REAL answer to that question, then you probably lose a client.
etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah


Jee-zus man!
I thought this forum was a place for us to share tips and techniques, not to aggresively promote your business and slag off everyone else in the process.

DisasterMan

Man, I am not trying to slag anyone off. It is simply the way I lay things out. I don't sugarcoat things for the sake of worrying about hurting someone's feeeeeeeelings. This is BUSINESS, it isn't personal. If you carefully read the things I write in this and other forums, you will find that my message is clearly one of dealing with clients with integrity and honest dealing, which to me defines professionalism.

I started out in this web business as a designer. I see more money and more opportunities to help small business in my country as well as others by switching my focus to SEO. I brought the plan to this forum some time ago in the hopes of opening the door to some things that seriously need to change in the web design profession. But I find most don't want to change. Most want to keep shuckin' and jivin' their clients (most, not all) and keep dragging in money claiming they deserve it. Well, fact is most do, on their graphic skills alone, many here add a nice set of marketing tools to their package, but there are some here who haven't the foggiest when it comes to SEO, and when someone comes in and essentailly says, (and this was some time back) "Hey gang! If you don't have a good handle on this SEO stuff, but want to make money still selling it to your clients, but REALLY delivering, I have a solution."

In return I have been sliced each time I open my mouth in here. Well, this week I secured over $100K in marketing capital for my company, and the opportunity that was going to begin here in this forum among what I thought was a group of honest business people, is being directed to a different sector of the Internet marketplace instead. It will without question result in MILLIONS of dollars for some assertive web PROFESSIONALS over the next 3-5 years. This was never intended to be something to TOUT my business. Actually it was one that was intended to help you all tout yours more effectively. Laid out options and almost every response I have received was from someone who opted to duke it out with the SEO guy.

I offered the Web Design Industry a big help a few weeks ago through this very forum. The so-called web pros of this forum by and large decided that this made it time for a fight, since I was proclaiming my company to be an SEO provider. So be it.

Keep your ear to the ground. Hear that rumble. That was MMGCorp's gravy train rolling out of this forum.

See You On The Battlefield.

NOTE TO MOD: When you delete this post, you can do the same with my membership to this forum, as well as my email address from your lists.

<Mod Note - There are pleanty of other members who have high opinions of themselves and we don't delete their posts per se so I'll let this one stand. If you want to have yourself removed from the forum and ientry records please contact the ientry administrators as the Mods can't do that - carju1>

[artyboy]

What I mean by the "customer is always right" is that as a professional, you should nod your head and get the job done in any way you can and ensure the client is totally satisfied. If you don't want the money, that's fine, do it your way and tell the client to shove off.

"the customer is always right" can be translated to "Make sure the customer is 100% satisfied".

being the PROFESSIONAL means you have the knowledge to do just that.

[devin7h]

Greetings,

I just wanted to say I appreciate hearing all the various experiences and points of view on dealing with difficult/delinquent clients.

It appears I've been making things tough on myself:

1. I charge only 25-30% up front (with the full balance "due upon completion").

2. There is no clause in my contract for payment by a certain date, or for materials to be provided before works begins/within 2 weeks, etc.

I've tended to rely on having cooperative clients, and being diligent about staying on top of them, but that's certainly not always the case. I've had many clients delay simple 5-page website jobs for MONTHS, for reasons ranging from "surprise 3-week vacations" to "regular hospital visits", and everything in between - including the biggest excuse of them all "Sorry, I've just been so busy lately"...

So, while I can certainly be understanding with a client's schedule, the best advice I've gleaned from this thread overall is just to "make completion of the website a priority for the client", as best you can - whether that comes from having them commit more $ up front, putting hard dates on payment, asking for content up front, adding penalties for delays, or all of the above.

I'm definitely going to adjust my business practices based on what I've read in this thread, and I hope to be able to offer up a few ideas and some advice of my own down the line.

Thanks.

[devin7h]

I was just looking through that Clientopia site, and laughing at the client comments there. Got me thinking I'd share a few of just the most recent excuses I've gotten from clients regarding project delays. Unfortunately for me these are all VERY REAL, and I'm sure if I dug through more emails I could find 20 more just like 'em.

Enjoy. And feel free to post your own favorite client gems!


"My partner has been in Ireland and I have been handling the whole office...its been hectic..."

"My boss hasn't made any real determination yet. There are some political things going on, and things are moving
slowly, especially the past few weeks."

"I just got back from Tokyo."

"We might be delayed a little bit due to some recent unforeseen financial investments."

"Sorry for my tardy response, but I have been out of town for a while and did not have an opportunity to check email."

"The past week was a little crazy..."

"Sorry it's been a few days since I have gotten back to you, but I've been busy packing I'm leaving for NJ for 3 weeks tomorrow."


AND MY ALL-TIME FAVORITE....

"Sorry, I was on vacation. And another one starts tomorrow."

[Brit]

I agree, Devin. This thread has provided some real therapy. Sometimes it's hard to decide what to do in certain situations, and it helps to see how others handle it. My business is only several months old, and I have learned so much from this thread.

[DisasterMan]

"the customer is always right" can be translated to "Make sure the customer is 100% satisfied".

being the PROFESSIONAL means you have the knowledge to do just that.

Ah. I understand. Nicely explained and I agree 100%.

[DisasterMan]

Man, I am not trying to slag anyone off. It is simply the way I lay things out. I don't sugarcoat things for the sake of worrying about hurting someone's feeeeeeeelings. This is BUSINESS, it isn't personal.

... ...

I started out in this web business as a designer. I see more money and more opportunities to help small business in my country as well as others by switching my focus to SEO. I brought the plan to this forum some time ago in the hopes of opening the door to some things that seriously need to change in the web design profession. But I find most don't want to change. Most want to keep shuckin' and jivin' their clients (most, not all) and keep dragging in money claiming they deserve it.

OK. I am also someone who has come from a design angle. Where my skills don't cover I never claim to be able to work magic. I think it seems unfair to suggest 'most' do tell such lies. I have never seen anyone suggesting, inferring or encouraging others to do so on this forum. Maybe there are more people who do so in the 'real' world, but I do not see them here and I doubt they would be welcome here.
This is one of the reasons I bother with WebProWorld as a educational source for my SEO needs, as well as a lot of related info (like this thread once was).
You want to help us?
Well, I am new to SEO. 7 years a web designer, so I am not stupid, but I always shied away from SEO before as it is so all-consuming. I am getting into it now as I have a site that is my responsibilty to promote. So I am here to learn and share.
SO, please assist - what is the 'TRUTH' you mentioned before? I would love to know.

The problem is this is a constantly changing and developing field. No one person can EVER know all the answers surely? Every search engine is different and every one is constantly changing to keep one step ahead of people who claim to know the 'TRUTH'.

If you know the truth, i suggest one of two actions.
1) Share it. It won't be the truth for long once the engines hear about it though, but you will earn WepProWorld-wide acclaim and respect as our iMessiah.
2) Say nothing. If you aren't going to tell us then
a)we will never know if you are telling the truth because we will never be able to test your theories.
b)it won't help anyone in their quest, and actually harm us as we waste time wading through it.

And besides - why advertise that you have the secret of the goose that laid the golden egg - surely you would want to keep that under your hat if it were true?

Looking forward to your earning the headline post in the newsletter with the most ground-shaking relevatory post regarding SEO that has ever been made, and of course knocking %80 off google's market price in the process,
DisasterMan

(@Mods &every1 else: sorry for dragging this out further - i hope these are legitamtate questions/points)

[devin7h]

Hate to state the obvious, but the 'truth' about SEO/high ranking is that it's a combination of things - one of which is to post your site link on message boards under the guise of being part of the discussion (so the Admin/Mod doesn't boot your post for spamming).

That was an ad, plain and simple. Let's move on and keep on topic, shall we? Cool.

- devin7h

[greeneagle]

devin7H,
You need to catch up on your reading. You may want to start here:
http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=19547

Ken