MicroSoft could Kill Flash Banner ads

[Linda Buquet]

"Why Flash Could Disappear from Online Ads"
› › › Using Ad Technology

BY Eric Picard | October 27, 2003

Here is part of the article:

"Flash could disappear from online advertising. Sound ludicrous? Then you aren't aware of what has happened between Microsoft and a little-known company called Eolas. If you are aware, you probably don't know the issues this will raise for online advertising.

Back in August, Microsoft lost a patent infringement case related to how Active X controls load into Internet Explorer. Eolas (which holds the patent in question) was awarded a whopping $500 million dollars. Active X is the mechanism used by most Explorer-compatible plug-ins, including Macromedia's Flash and Shockwave, Quicktime, Real Media, Adobe Acrobat, and many others."

http://www.clickz.com/tech/ad_tech/article.php/3098671

Read the article, then come back to discuss it.

[Linda Buquet]

More on this subject:

October 30, 2003
Browser Changes to Hit Online Advertising
By Susan Kuchinskas

"There's still some denial among marketers, but many are preparing code re-writes to cope with Microsoft's pending changes to its Internet Explorer browser, which were forced by a patent ruling."

"Last August, a Chicago jury awarded Eolas Technology $512 million in damages for patent infringement related to the way Microsoft's browser allows the embedding of small interactive programs in HTML documents. Advertisements made with Macromedia Flash, which has become an increasingly popular format, rely on this embedding to display properly. Other ad creative formats face the same issue. "

"While Microsoft appeals, it began work on a new version of the browser that eliminates the infringement by prompting the user to determine whether an ActiveX control should be loaded or whether to display alternate content. This means that users visiting Web pages that have not been updated to work with the new browser version will see a dialog box instead of a Flash movie or other content that uses ActiveX controls."

Read the rest here:
http://www.internetnews.com/IAR/article.php/3101661

What do you think?

[mikmik]

I wonder why Microsoft didn't uncover the 'previous use' clause? I'm not upset over Windows OS's that have their issues, but I am starting to really what is going on in marketting and management over there.

First, and just very recently, had to put up with their obstinance over Sun's claim of contract violation in the java virtual machine battle. Now this. I wonder why they won't pay a judgement or conform to the courts rulings. Seems to me like they go off and pout, and in making things difficult for millions of internet users, expect us to feel sorry for them and/or blame the other party.

Looks like the behavior of a spoiled brat.
Most likely, in the long run, I expect flash to still be around, though. It may not be quite in the league of java, but there is no Microsoft equivilant as an alternative either, so they (hopefully) hold even less sway over this.
Just a very uninformed opinion, for now.

[Que]

I recently read an excellent article on the code used by macromedia to embed flash movies in an html document. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/
In a nutshell, he found that the "clsid=" was specific to internet explorer to tell it to load the flash plugin via active x. You don't have to code it that way after all. I've tried his method and it works fine. The cool thing is, the amount of code needed to make flash work in netscape and ie browsers is now halved.
Once you get to the article, there's a "discuss" link in the top right-hand side of the page that has an abundance of great coding discussions.

I wouldn't worry too much about flash going away. Also, there's no difference between a flash banner ad and a flash based website. Same flash .swf files. Why does this article only target flash banner ads and not the stability of any sort of flash movie? Sounds suspect to me.

-=Randy

[seizure]

In my opinion flash is way to powerful for microsoft to completley diminish it's use. Unless of course they buy out Macromedia. Flash is way to useful though, from online apps, to animations to design it handles all these with an easy to use user freindly enviroment. To take flash out of the picture is completley stupid. It can't happen...I use this as the main interface on my website, and I can't see how a new browser and 500 million dollairs is gonna put flash in the dumpster...

Flash lover

[Robin]

I find it discouraging that Microsoft chooses to make the Active X tools useless. This includes Flash, Shockwave, Windows Media Player, Apple QuickTime, RealAudio. RealVideo, Java applets and Custom ActiveX controls according to the Macromedia website.

It seems like it would be in the best interest of the web community to integrate legacy software in new applications to make the www less confusing and easier to navigate. (This is assuming that Microsoft considers itself a member of the web community and not the dictator of the web experience)

My site is almost entirely based on Active X controls and I am confident that Macromedia will provide a solution. But that is little help for the time investment I will be forced to make to ensure a seamless experience for my websites visitors.

Regards

Robin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robin Titus
http://www.TheDigitalHorse.com
Dressage Tests Online, with free classifieds, forums, and calendars.
Riding is simple... it's just not easy
-Anonymous

[TheWebDoctor(tm)]

seizure states:

In my opinion flash is way to powerful for microsoft to completley diminish it's use. Unless of course they buy out Macromedia. Flash is way to useful though, from online apps, to animations to design it handles all these with an easy to use user freindly enviroment. To take flash out of the picture is completley stupid. It can't happen...I use this as the main interface on my website, and I can't see how a new browser and 500 million dollairs is gonna put flash in the dumpster...

It's always interesting to me that there are people out there that think Flash is the best thing since peanut butter.

Flash is not and never will be an application that should be used as a full web site application or even a web site. Of course, the graphic designers will say differently and they will continue to say differently.

The disadvantages of Flash outweigh the perceived advantages.

Pros:
1. It fits within the window it is designed for.
2. It allows for interesting effects.
3. It allows for live video/audio feeds.
4. It is easy to use - now that's questionable.

Cons:
1. It is only accessible to the blind through MSAA and Windows-Eyes.
2. It removes the content from the page where it belongs and puts it into a graphic presentation.
3. It is not search engine friendly.
4. It provides no advantages that can not already be built into a page.
5. It requires PHP, ASP, JSP, or some other server side language to generate dynamic information.
6. Flash navigation is not accessible to search engines and therefore does not allow for pages to be indexed in the search engines.
7. Too many tricks required to have a flash site indexed in the search engines.


Flash is best used for image presentation. Image presentation is not true search able content.

Don't get me wrong. I use Flash on my radio site for live feeds. My visitors are able to see me and hear me. That's something that wasn't really useful before Flash Communications Server. But, I won't use it on a site as the entire site. My client's businesses are far too important to destroy with Flash.

Use it for minor presentations on a site - not the entire site.

I am glad that Microsoft now has to revamp its poor browser. Perhaps it will provide a more usable browser without all the non-standards compliant garbage.

They did it on the Macintosh platform, why can't they do it on the Windows platform?

[jaxne]

I agree with Que. There are alternatives to using Active X, and I'm sure Macromedia is working this out their own alternative as I type this. The majority of browsers out there have Flash installed in one version or another. Plus Flash banner Ads are typically simple animations with a click thru getURL button script attached. So unless you've got some crazy intricate Flash banner ad, deliver in v4 to be safe.

my 2¢

John Axne
http://www.creationagents.com/

[johnt]

MVP,

You are right that was a very uninformed opinion.

[johnm]

20+ years ago there was a battle of the GUI interface pitting Windows vs Macs. Today both have settled into thier niche and the playgound is (mostly) quiet. I have a feeling this too will pass and whatever duplicity will settle into some universal standard between the 2.

[Titus]

I wonder how Microsoft loosing this case will effect other browsers and their functionality, like Opera, Mozilla, Firebird, and Konquerer.

[God]

It's both impressive and sad how many uninformed journalists have distorted this relatively simple issue into "THE END OF THE WORLD WIDE WEB IS NIGH". Perhaps the end of non-standards compliant browsers, but regrettably I don't think so.

Stay tuned for the next amusing episode: "Macromedia Obtains Eolas license".


"Flash could disappear from online advertising."

[httpman]

Well, Microsoft could have new friends for this story.
Recent news are (in France) encouraging : the W3C itself is now using the "previous use" clause to claim Eolas' patent is invalid.

To be continued...

JP

[warhol]

Microsoft didn't lose that case! THEY THREW THE FIGHT! & the appeal...
When was the last time MS lawyers didn't get all the evidence entered into a case? & THEN, not get it into the appeal? LMAO yeah right!
Think about it!...
They've been trying to bring down SUN & JAVA for years! plus a lot of other similar competitors.
I can't think of a better way to do it than this!
They just have to sit back, play the loser & let this 3rd party do their dirty work for'em!
I guarantee they have a solution for the problem all worked out ahead of time for M$/IE technologies & probably Flash too?
Within a week of losing the first case, they had already started hinting at solutions, like they came up with'em that fast? yeah right, I got a bridge to sell ya too! =)
Its probably a bunch of old "IE Only" technology they had laying around & couldn't use before, for fear of the FTC & more lawsuits too

Now they're calling them "solutions to this problem" LMAO

Its pretty damn brilliant though, if ya ask me? in a slimy slick billy kind of way! =)

[httpman]

Hey warhol,
That is a good demonstration starting with "the reason why" and ending with "that is the reason why".

OK, but you should tell that this is your opinion, and only it. I don't know what business you're in, and how expert in MS strategies you are, but indeed a lot of newbies read those posts and could need more than just a personnal thought to better understand that world !!

JP

[warhol]

Hey httpman,
I'm a developer & am involved with a little bit of everything. I've also avoided MS technologies like the plague for years! =)
I came across & looked into this case right away because it affects my side biz of 360 virtual tours & the java applet I use.
About 15mins. after reading up on it...this occurred to me like Wham!
I was like...ahhhh, you scallywag! LOL I know exactly what yer up to! ;)

I posted this on 9/19 at another smaller forum, I just went back to look & nobody will touch it with a ten foot pole lol
I also just noticed they have a poll going about "how are you going to deal with it?"
What a bunch of sheep! Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa! =)

Wheres the DOJ & FTC when ya need'em?

This is mine & my opinion alone...really alone from the zero reponses that last post got LOL

Its MY story & I'M stickin to it! ;)

[httpman]

Ok Wharhol,

Good to get you here at WebProWorld.
We all need different opinions to get awaked - otherwise could sleep and forget we're sleeping !!

Just think that here, we try to bring help to newbies - I'm sure you know many things, just find the right way to tell them to others !...

A good stretching for anyone, no ??

Developpers are great LOL, they build our future !! Just remember that we are human beeings, behind the computer !


JP

[Linda Buquet]

God wrote:


Catalyst wrote:
"Flash could disappear from online advertising."

Actually none of the words or opinions in the 2 posts above were were mine, just quotes from the articles. I'm still not sure what to make of all this, but I see some very good ideas being exchanged.

[httpman]

Catalyst,

Thanks to start that post, those questions are the one we should ask about everyday !

Now tell us : what is your own opinion ? I mean, I would really like to know. My own opinion (I start first) is that such an issue cannot really change our lives. It could maybe be summed up as "MS have to pay a lot of $$$", but that now sounds a little bit dull, doesn't it ?

This WWW "crash or pay" never happened by the past - just remember that scarry ".gif" story, or worst even this more recent dirty "SCO vs Linux" tale, and you can understand my own opinion : this is just a puppet show. Our WWW lives will not change, all those $$$ requests come from last century companies, which are already dead but don't yet know !...

What do yo think of that ?

JP

[seizure]

Flash does have it's pros and cons. As does any other type of graphic manipulation (webdesign) program. Dreamweaver and Adobe Golive to name a couple, have as many faults and features as any other program. the truth of the matter is that all of these aren't universal, and will always have a pro side and a con side. To me however, that is what allows joe blow to come along and develop a new application and "hopefully" in the process put two bucks in his pocket.

would you like to see a universal apllication and web infrastucture that allows only for this or that? I fear that. I much prefer having a wide range of tools at my finger tips to allow me to be as creative with all those tools as possible. Active-X gone? So what! I mean really, they will just develop something else to handle the information and we will receive our flash animations, it will just be intyergrated, instead of having to set your active X controls. New browser? great! cause explorer sucks anyway.

The whole deal is that micresoft is trying to work itself to a monopoly. They want linux now, and always have, they bought apple last year? They own a share in almost all that is the web, and good on Bill and his associates for even making it that far. Ijust hope that they don't buy us all out, and keep the web and the software community always developing and growing to allow new software, and new ways of working in a web based enviroment.

[minstrel]

I'm a developer & am involved with a little bit of everything. I've also avoided MS technologies like the plague for years!


I posted this on 9/19 at another smaller forum, I just went back to look & nobody will touch it with a ten foot pole... I also just noticed they have a poll going about "how are you going to deal with it?" What a bunch of sheep! Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

A caution about your conclusion: The fact that no one responds to your posted opinion doesn't mean that they agree with you. You say you "avoid MS technologies like the plague" and I wonder how well that was revealed in the other forum you mention.

When I come across Linux/anything but Microsoft posts in newsgroups or forums, I often don't bother to reply, not because I agree with the viewpoint but rather because I think it's a waste of time and a waste of energy.

Still, your point that Microsoft may have an alternate strategy or end play up their sleeves may be true and I do agree that the end of Flash seems like an unlikely scenario, at least for now....

[httpman]

I post this by error, sorry.

[Anita Campbell]

For a different take on this problem, check out the article by Don Pavlish in Craintech. You see, the problem isn't with Microsoft, it is with the United States Patent Office issuing overly broad patents that should never have been issued in the first place. I say, Bravo to Microsoft for refusing to be held hostage to intellectual property gold diggers. If we don't watch out, every time we turn around, someone will claim to be the sole inventor of something that is being used by the multitudes, and demand outrageous royalties. Patent on fresh air, anyone?

http://neohio.craintech.com/cgi-bin/article.pl?articleId=3192

Anita Campbell
Anita Campbell Associates Ltd.

[vwebworld]

http://www.total-impact.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3485

Some more information and "work arounds".

~Roland

[carbonize]

Catalyst, just out of interest, why did you title this thread MicroSoft could Kill Flash Banner ads and not just could MS kill flash? Why did you particularly single out ads?

Would the loss of Flash actually be that big a loss to the net?

I'm not to up on the differences between how IE handles embedded media and how the other browsers do other than that other browsers use a none valid tag, embed, which seems a whole lot simpler to me than all the <object stuff. So how will this ruling affect the other browsers?

Personally I wish they would get rid of the stupid DHTM adverts that expand and cover most of the window so you have to hunt for the elusive close button.

[Linda Buquet]

Hi carbonize

Great question. I simply took the title slightly modified from the opening article from Clickz "Why Flash Could Disappear from Online Ads." Since this is the affiliate marketing forum, and the opening article was about how this could effect the advertising industry - that was my focus. I assumed someone else would post about the more general Flash issues in the Flash forum.

I have a very myopic view of the Internet world in that everything I focus on is affiliate marketing related. My primary concern was letting merchants know about this. I know alot of merchants that are much more brick and mortar oriented and some of them are not very tuned into the Internet and technology. So I wanted to be sure they were aware of the potential coming changes that could affect they way they design ad banners.

[vwebworld]

I think the ultimate impact is not the disappearance
of Flash content, but is the financial impact
on the bottom line.

There are and will be "work arounds" that allow Flash
to be loaded without the pop-up message. The result of
the suit is the additional time anc expense of "re-coding"
websites. The customer will ultimately pay in the end.

It would be better for the web community (designers and
users) for MS and Eolas to reach a compromise.

~Roland

[tertius]

There's a thread on this under Internet Industry on Eolas vs. Microsoft, posted 10/16...

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=7161

[Linda Buquet]

tertius,

Thanks for the heads up and the link.