Web editing by clients

[alphaomega]

Hi guys, I have few clients who want to do their own web page editing, change text and images. What is the best way and inexpensive way to do it? I am aware there are several version of software available, some of which are easy to use and expensive, some cheap and impossible to use. Please help.

Thank you.

[SteveGerencser]

Give them a CMS like wordpress or drupal etc.. Do NOT let clients use code editors.. They will break the site..

[vino]

They will break the site..

Depends on the client. If they use a good wysiwyg editor it might work. They do not have to see a single part of code if they use e.g. Dreamweaver. For those who do not want a cms, you might offer a workshop teaching the basics, especially the meaning of backups.

[weegillis]

Depends on the client. If they use a good wysiwyg editor it might work. They do not have to see a single part of code if they use e.g. Dreamweaver. For those who do not want a cms, you might offer a workshop teaching the basics, especially the meaning of backups.

Like a client is going to rush out and pay a thousand dollars for a program to sit in the closet most of its life? First thing to remember about the client, they are not DIYers, that's why they're the client. And I would never give an amateur a program like Dreamweaver. IT will break the site. Don't give a client a tool they can't troubleshoot themselves. The CMS route is by far the preferable method for giving them a 'sense of control.' That is enough, imho.

[morestar]

Interestingly enough, they can even break the site with a CMS - Wordpress may try to fix invalid code but it can't be guaranteed that that's always the case.

I'd try to keep the client as the client and charge a decent hourly rate for updates.

[alphaomega]

Same sentiment here, but try to tell some people. Just finished a lengthy phone conversation with a client who has a photographer hosting his DNS. We are trying to get the DNS on our servers. What a drama. People for some reason think they can learn IT stuff in a week as a pro. Strange. I am issuing notice with each client, that if they brake the web it will cost them. But some still insist to edit their own web as it is "cheaper" than us doing it. I guess experience will teach them. I can recommend Contribute, which is relatively safe, (unless they figure out how to do things in more depth), but it cost fair few dollars. What I saw in internet as free was not worth bothering with. Still in limbo. Thanks to all of you for comments.

[LD]

And I would never give an amateur a program like Dreamweaver. IT will break the site.


Understood. In a couple of cases, though, at the clients nagging, I've recommended Contribute with fairly good success. It has the DW "engine" at a low price, and comes without all the extraneous stuff clients dont' need and is pretty safe. But I agree that even with a solution like this, it is more than possible for clients to mess things up. I always have the client sign a release agreement and I'm always there to tighten things up if the site gets loose. For a fee, of course. :)

[LD]

But some still insist to edit their own web as it is "cheaper" than us doing it. I guess experience will teach them.
I think we all know how this usually turns out. It is rarely cheaper for them, but some want "hands on" for reasons I cannot fathom.

[weegillis]

Every client I have ever trained to do in-house work has broken the site and been too embarrassed or proud or stubborn to call and ask for help. Only once in all these years was I called back (two years later) to repair a site. The damage was extensive and it took weeks. They got it fixed for a flat rate.

The question is, what is the site running at present: custom HTML, CSS, JS, PHP, etc.; or is it a blog template already? Was the site created in Dreamweaver or GoLive or FrontPage?

You are at a disadvantage if it is custom code, because what will happen is they will just dump it and install a blog of their own (or have someone do it, but it probably won't be you). If it is a blog already, then charge a reasonable amount to train them, and add a retainer for one year of support. If it is a WYSIWYG site, then perhaps Contribute might be the way for them to go, but it's still a cash outlay and a learning curve that can be steep if they are total newbies. Again, you might be able to earn a fee for training and support.

What is the client's main concern? Price? It may not even be worth your while to haggle with them if it's a small potatoes thing. They may just be throwing up a price smoke screen when what they really want is to hire a new web designer. No sense beating about the bush. Get this question out of the way before you waste any more of your time with them. If they genuinely think the cost is too high, then compare your last years fees to what they spend on one quarter page in their local newspaper. Then ask them to give their head a shake. (Well, maybe not.)

It just floors me how much people will pay for fire starter, and they won't put up one dime for their own world wide publishing system. You can't argue with 'smarts' like this, so again, if this is the case, pack up and move on. You'll never get through to them.

And then we have to take a look at ourselves in the mirror: are we professional and qualified to meet this client's true needs? If the answer is doubtful, or, no, then you would be doing them a favor by introducing someone who is more qualified than you. You might even be able to partner in the background and still bring home some revenue from that account.

[alphaomega]

This is a special event for the wine industry in South Australia. Whole group of them in certain region has signed up to promote themselves through this media. All is basically one template with different content. Created in DW and edited XHTML and CSS to suit. Nothing elaborate.
I don't think is the price, but the need to do things by themselves. It seems to be a man's thing. We also manage a business from the accounting point and he still insist to "do" things he believes has knowledge of. After Tax department investigation he admitted to meddle the books without our knowledge. Did he learn? No! So what do you do with people like him?

[weegillis]

Did he learn? ho! So what do you do with people like him?Hope he's not reading this...

Is he willing to spend 60 hours learning every aspect of the site in Contribute? Is he willing to pay for training and settling in support (it is tax deductible)?

Can you adapt a part of the site for him to work on, keeping the sensitive code separate? Maybe it's just a certain part they want to be able update at will. You might be able to add a blog to the site and let him go to town on that, having first transferred pertinent data over to the blog as a starting point.

[alphaomega]

I can see I have opened a can of worms here. We all have some experience with the "experts". I will lock the parts that makes the side and let only the images and text for editing. Even that is risky. If they just put an image in a field that is way larger, the whole web page is destroyed. But still they have feeling to be in control. Isn't this what is it all about? Feeling to be in control?

[deepsand]

But still they have feeling to be in control. Isn't this what is it all about? Feeling to be in control?
From the Serenity Prayer - Reinhold Niebuhr



God grant me the
serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can; and
wisdom to know the difference.


Holds for both us and our clients.

[weegillis]

Serenity Prayer Loosely translated:

bind my tongue to keep me from caterwauling him.

[alphaomega]

God grant me the
serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can; and
wisdom to know the difference.
Amen to that

[mjtaylor]

I have trained lots of clients to handle their own plain HTML sites ... using Dreamweaver. Go figure. No one has broken the site yet, though they mess up pages from time to time. I have a lot of clients for whom my fee is cost prohibitive to make changes, so this has been the best solution. I am there to restore order when necessary, and I do the SEO, but not the maintenance.

I also have had success with adding a wordpress blog for several and that's been a success. They can add posts or even pages without the learning curve of DW.

Results may vary. ;)

[deepsand]

No one has broken the site yet, though they mess up pages from time to time.
It can be well argued that "messed up" is "broken."

[mikmik]

Check this puppy out:
http://ckeditor.com/

This looks pretty all around also: http://www.openwebware.com/ but it doesn't work in my Chrome browser(I'm on the developer track, though - ver. 14.0.835.15 dev-m)

LOL, it just updated to 15.0.861.0 dev-m.
Anyways, there are kabillions of these scripts around that use everything like php and MySql, java, .net something or other, think I saw one using SMS(cell/smart phone editing!), Contribute. Which reminds me, Adobe just released another editor that is less complicated than contribute. It is an beta, if I recall, and is free.

[alphaomega]

Check this puppy out:
http://ckeditor.com/

This looks pretty all around also: http://www.openwebware.com/ but it doesn't work in my Chrome browser(I'm on the developer track, though - ver. 14.0.835.15 dev-m)
Did you test this before? I just downloaded the files and see if I can test it on one of the test sites. The only thing I don't like is that I have to insert the code into the website. Presumably on every page that will be edited.
Thanks for this anyway, I will give it a go. Free means I am good fellow to some clients. If they can't use it at least I gave them the possibility to do so. Then I can do the updates from here. That is one way to be on the winning site.

[mjtaylor]

It can be well argued that "messed up" is "broken."

Yes, if you wanted to be argumentative. ;)

I get that. But when I say a site is broken, I imagine much more work to fix it than a restoring a messed up file with the click of my FTP program.

[LD]

Which reminds me, Adobe just released another editor that is less complicated than contribute. It is an beta, if I recall, and is free.

Is this beta prog, Adobe Edge?

[deepsand]

Yes, if you wanted to be argumentative. ;)

I get that. But when I say a site is broken, I imagine much more work to fix it than a restoring a messed up file with the click of my FTP program.
There are issues of both form and function. If the code is flawed, then, of course, functionality may be lost.

However, if the form is sufficiently malformed, such that a page is unable to induce the user to take the desired action(s), then it is also functionally impaired. And, reworking such malformations can be more time consuming than would be a simple file restore.

[RJGonzalez]

wordpress with a monthly support fee, is what i usually do. Extra if they brake it :roll:

[mikmik]

Did you test this before? I just downloaded the files and see if I can test it on one of the test sites. The only thing I don't like is that I have to insert the code into the website. Presumably on every page that will be edited.
Thanks for this anyway, I will give it a go.
No, I didn't test them but to try the demos on their sites. I can see their drawbacks and I am not up to speed enough, yet, to even play with it enough to get it implemented properly.
I didn't ask enough questions here. Do you want him to be able to edit existing pages, add content to them, or just publish new ones?
The biggest question I have, can you run php and MySQL on the host, or do you want to? Or do you want to keep it jut in the realm of xhtml+css+javascript? A cms system like many blogs etc.(I'm sure you no more than me here!) allow the admin to create levels of authority to allow only authorized visitors to edit or publish, and even restrict just how much damage they can do. Haha, I meant, restrict them to WYS edit, code level shenanigans, access the style sheets, etc. Obviously you just want him to put pictures and words in without changing layout and styling, and I'm sure using php(or perl - yikes!) that's easy to set up. I don't like the idea of having these editors I found be part of every page viewed on the public website!!
Another aspect you can control with php is file size! Nothing like having a client upload a few multi megabyte high res shots they took with their DSLR, LMAO. They may notice when pages load slow when you've made them, but some folks I've worked with suddenly develop saintly like patience for page loading when it's their stuff. Especially they might be on a backbone T1 line(LOL) and not realize that wireless connections and normal networks are slower for other people. At least php can resize dimensionally and probably optimize file size as well.

I won't ever work for anyone again on a site where they have access to code, especially if it's an ecommerce site, and especially more so if 10 or 20 minutes of down time starts costing them money. That's pressure! That's inconvenience!! Getting a 911 when you are about to embark on a cruise with your fiance!!! Seconds count!!! Can't you see I'm busy!!!! Look, honey, you're gonna have to go into labor later!!!! Remind me to never let clients anywhere near the code no matter how much they promise they just want to look only and won't ever touch anything!!!!!! Dogs and cats living together!!!!!!

But I digress. :wink:

[williamc]

Look, honey, you're gonna have to go into labor later!!!!

*cough* *choke* Bwahahahahaha

[alphaomega]

.................
I didn't ask enough questions here. Do you want him to be able to edit existing pages, add content to them, or just publish new ones?
The biggest question I have, can you run php and MySQL on the host, or do you want to? Or do you want to keep it jut in the realm of xhtml+css+javascript? ............:wink:
This is just xhtml / css. The aim is to lock the code so they can't stuff it. As it happened the client went elsewhere now, since I didn’t get excited about him doing the editing
so they can't stuff it. As it happened I believe the client went elsewhere now, since I didn’t get excited about him doing the editing. At least I didn't hear a word back from him.

[weegillis]

The more they try to put powerful self management tools in the hands of the common person, the further the technology gets away from them, and the DIY developer. It's making developers into nothing more than template mechanics. Good and not so good at the same time.

[alphaomega]

Not on the subject, but interesting. If you like to know more about radial gradients created in CSS, look this webpage: http://www.webdirections.org/blog/css3-radial-gradients/