Things search engines look at [Archive]

janeth

10-28-2003, 06:35 AM

This is a short list. Please add to it.

Meta Tags

Title metatag - Use your best key worsd here, not the name of your web site. Use it for 6 to 12 key words. It should be the first thing in your <head>

Meta description tag - Most engines use this tag. It should go under the titile tag.

Keyword metatag - Some engines use them some just check them. If they do not match the content it could be considered spam.

Text

Key words and text - key words that are higher on a page are given more weight.

Headings - The seach engines also give more weight to <h> tags. <h1> having more weight then <h3>. So you should try and use these tags and use your best key words in them. It also helps if you use them in order <h1> then <h2>.

Bold - This is not as important as <h> tags but do help and taht is [b] tags.

Anchor Text - The links coming to your web site or to different pages on your site should use your key words in and around the link.

Alt tags - Use short sentences to describe what the picture is about.

Comment tags - Some engines use them.

Email addresses on every page - make sure it matches the domain name in the web site address.

Number of links pointing to your site plus how many links are one the page with the link pointing to your site.

Page Last Modified - A site that is updated often is looked at as a better site.

rlrouse

10-28-2003, 12:47 PM

Link anchor text.

oops... missed that one above...

voodooboy

10-28-2003, 01:01 PM

excell

10-28-2003, 01:34 PM

Meta Tags

Title metatag - Use your best key worsd here, not the name of your web site. Use it for 6 to 12 key words. It should be the first thing in your <head>

There is no such thing as a title metatag... The title tag in the head area is the title of the page and should be used to reflect the page.. it it the title of the page - think like a book chapter page :)

Meta description tag - Most engines use this tag. It should go under the titile tag.

The degree of the importance of the description meta tag is questionable... it is important to write a short description of the individual page here, no nonsense, this could well be read by people deciding where to click next.

Keyword metatag - Some engines use them some just check them. If they do not match the content it could be considered spam.

Again, reflecting the individual content of the page here is important, less is much more than more.

Text

Key words and text - key words that are higher on a page are given more weight.

Sensible information about your products and services that speaks first and foremost to your site visitor is more desirable than sliced bread, it's *good stuff*, so do it clearly, don't hide anything, communication is the key.

Headings - The seach engines also give more weight to <h> tags. <h1> having more weight then <h3>. So you should try and use these tags and use your best key words in them. It also helps if you use them in order <h1> then <h2>.

Hx tags should always be used according to the purpose for them,, i.e. heading, subheading, sub section heading etc. If you think that wrapping everything in Hx tags is going to work you thinking is not correct...think of page layout as if it was in print?? If everything was in a heading, would it be a heading any more?

Bold - This is not as important as <h> tags but do help and taht is tags.

Who can tell< how do you know?
It is my opinion that a natural emphasis when communication to your audience will always win over try to stress out over enth degrees of what the search engines might make of it.. natural flow of marketing copy and emphasis is better.. in my opinion.

Anchor Text - The links coming to your web site or to different pages on your site should use your key words in and around the link.

This works well, but if it is abused today, it could be de-emphasised tomorrow.

Alt tags - Use short sentences to describe what the picture is about.
Think of alt attributes in the light of their purpose, that is as alternative text for those on browsers that do not read images.. the search engines do not read images and neither do blind folks.. so be sensitive here.. most search engines ignore these now due to abuse.. always include them for the benefit of those needing considerations of accessibility regardless of what the current search engine thing is.
Comment tags - Some engines use them.

Are they going to be editing your pages, do you think? If you are wise you would use comment tags in the light of there intended usage, not to try to trick search engines into believing your website is saying more to your audience than what it is. :)

Email addresses on every page - make sure it matches the domain name in the web site address.

Why?

Number of links pointing to your site plus how many links are one the page with the link pointing to your site.

Ermm anything about quality here and what the search engines themselves might have to say about this topic?

Page Last Modified - A site that is updated often is looked at as a better site.

I think it has nothing to do with a date on the page, I think it has a lot more to do with actual changes that the robots can detect for themselves, without being told.

[b]Janeth,,, Please do not see this as any sort of attack on your post,, your post caught my eye and I have free flowed my thoughts and understanding on top of it.

It might be then possible for others to come and add things and correct you/me.. and then you would be left with a mighty fine list :)

Black Knight

10-28-2003, 01:46 PM

It is said that Inktomi is still paying some attention to comment tags, but I'm not seeing it myself - at least, I'm not seeing it help more than using the words in the regular text instead.

In that light, its rather like the meta tags, which have less weighting in most engines than any area of the body text. Teoma and Altavista seem to pay more attention to meta description than other engines do, but that's still not saying much, and certainly doesn't seem to drive much actual traffic.

excell

10-28-2003, 01:59 PM

All in all and come what may, what I am seeing is a tendancy for the search engines to pay attention to what is said in the content. (First make sure that your content is accessible)

Then the weight of the site & the weight of it's neighbours, in relation to the search term.

Then nitty gritty stuff..

And that is why it is all so simple.. it's just communication that is clear and accessible :)

If your game (and I speak to anyone) is to try to trick the search engines via methods old or new (included in their current guidelines or not) then you are playing a short-term game IMO. It is far better to work with your web site as a communication tool and speak to your target market through your pages .. doing this will help you with search engine positioning long term as well..

errm.. oops.. I think I had best tuck my soap box away here. </rant>

Black Knight

10-28-2003, 02:08 PM

Quick update on the indexability of comments.

I tried a very simple method of checking, and got mixed results on just one of the engines I tried, which is indeed one powered by Inktomi.

I searched for #EndEditable which is the common Dreamweaver code embedded into a comment wherever templates are used. There are literally millions of such pages in existance I suspect.

MSN alone of all engines I tried this on gave some results (http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=%23EndEditable) for the query, but very few. Too few in fact to clearly say "Yes, it looks at comments" because it is far more likely that some of these pages had bad code (an improperly formed comment tag) at the time they were last spidered. There just are not enough results shown for this to be recognising content in properly formed comment tags.

excell

10-28-2003, 02:24 PM

Agree.. way too few.. and to even consider using or abusing the tag is a little far fetched... It's purpose as far as I know is to leave notes for designers to get their bearings in the code and that's it.

There is no reason NOT to use the comment tag if you need to communicate to others working on the page or to leave sensisble notes or *comments* to yourself, but if anyone thinks it has anything to do with search engine positioning they may be living on the arc.

Christian_SEO

10-28-2003, 02:29 PM

We have out own little list, and I did not see item #1 so far... Scored Keyword Research.

If you optimize your site with junk and best guesses; well, you should not start off building a house with poor grade materials... on a bad foundation.

To do the research, most professionals swear by WordTracker.com, but we use www.GoodKeywords.com's program and have great results. Try both and decide.

Thanks,
Christian[/b]

le_gber

10-28-2003, 02:40 PM

Hi Janeth,

nice post, I'm just going to try to add my 2 cents to it.

on page optimisation

in the <head> tag:

the <title> tag is clearly still important to seo and should include your keyword.

the <meta> tags (keywords and description) although they haven't got great importance in the way SE rank sites, I believe that putting them in is still worth the time spent. I also believe that some directories and may be some SE won't include your site if it doesn't include them.

the <meta> tags (robots) is the only other meta tag I use when I don't want to include a file in the robots.txt

in the <body> tag

<h> tags : H1 should be the title of the page and I think that because of the way it has been abused it is best to keep only one H1 tag per page that reflects the <title> tag. H1 should also appear before any other H tag and preferably at the very top of the page (very close to the body tag).Use H2 and H3 to organize your page. If you validate your page and you have more than 1 H1 tag it gives you an error and I am sure that in the near future SE will not give importance to other H1 tags on the page, or give less importance to H1 with more than, say 10-15 words (which is already a lot).

keywords position and keyword density: keywords placed at the beginning of a paragraph (

tag) and at the top of a page will have more weight than those lost in the middle of a page. I also think that having them at the end of a paragraph could be beneficial. Keyword density is really up to you but I saw site with kwd density around 30-40% ranking really well.

bold and italic are there to emphasis and therefore gives importance to the emphasised word(s). But don't overdo it - not sure how css is handled for this.

Alt tags: as excell pointed out they have originally been created to replace an image for text only browser. Use them for al your images (usability) and if you designed your site thoughtfully you will end up putting keywords in them without noticing.

on page anchor text and links within your site: don't use 'click here' or other meaningless words like that us keywords. This doesn't only helps seo but blind persons have specific software that will display all the links at the top of the document - having 10's of click here link won't help them.

link's title attribute: again usability but also helps in SEO.

Off page optimisation:

links from other sites: ask for links/reciprocal if it really brings something to your site and use keywords in the link text (as Janeth pointed out). Don't go and hunt only high PR site but beware of site with PR0 and grey PR bars. Link to relevant/recognised sites (some believe that a very small leak of PR can come this way as well - not as important as the other way of course and not proven theory either)

robots.txt tell the robots from the start what to look at and what to ignore.

domain name: choose a relevant easy to remember domain - if keywords in it - might boost ranking a little

file size: keep the files small, put all javascript in a separate file and use Css

directory name and structure and file name: use relevant file name (not service1, service 2, services3) use relevant directory name as well and try to keep all files within 2 click form the homepage.

sitemap: use it for all your sites to keep pages within 2 clicks from index page.

host: choose your hosting company wisely - how much downtime do they have? Also very important: if you target the us or uk market find a host in these country or by a .co.uk domain - google filters on IP block.

update your pages regularly and add new pages. I believe that googlebot will like you a bit more if you use the server command to tell them wich files have changed since his/her last visit.

Finally: content is king. Design your website for your visitors not search engines. SE robots won't buy your products or make enquiries to your company. If your site provides good information other people will link to it, talk to others about it, which will bring more people to your site and more enquiry.

Well if anybody can think of anything else, please add to this thread.

Leo

janeth

10-28-2003, 02:59 PM

This is from Bruce Clays web site this is what he had to say about comment tags

if you choose to use comments then duplicate the comment text line and place it randomly throughout the content portions of your site but make sure each duplication is uniquely worded and not excessively long. By this we mean, reword your keyword list to read like sentences, and make each keyword list read differently. You also should not need more than two to achieve your goals. [This would be a great place to put your missspelled [sic] keywords such as using sight instead of site.]

janeth

10-28-2003, 03:05 PM

Thanks le_gber,

I agree with you 100%. English is my second language and it is hard for me to write what I want to say sometimes. What you wrote fits what I think perfect.

excell

10-28-2003, 03:28 PM

Be careful what you read on old pages.. the site owner may not have had time to update their content.

sudhani

10-28-2003, 04:04 PM

le_gber:
update your pages regularly and add new pages. I believe that googlebot will like you a bit more if you use the server command to tell them wich files have changed since his/her last visit.

Can you explain more on this server command?

ReadyCompanies

10-28-2003, 04:19 PM

le_gber
on page optimisation
in the <head> tag:

the <title> tag is clearly still important to seo and should include your keyword.

just like to add my comment:-

Different titles on different pages

make sure you sure that the title includes the targetted keywords and that they are relevant to the content on the same page

Observation on title tags

most websites have the worst possible title
"Welcome to ABC Website"

A search in Google for the term "Welcome" has more 100 miilion results
- are they targetting "Welcome" as a keyword?

also other websites carry the same page title for all the pages - same title all over the website

- this is a real waste from the Search Optimisation Angle

Content - Quality and Quantity

surely a 3 page website with a few keywords would have difficulty in being ranked higher as compared to a website with 100 pages of content which then would be able to target a lot more keywords.

le_gber

10-28-2003, 05:32 PM

ReadyCompanies I agree with you. Most website are 'optimised if you were looking for the company name XYZ Company - Home, XYZ Company - services. What I meant was use your title tag to clearly state the keyword like 'Blue Widgets', 'Red Widgets' and if your CEO really want the name of the company on all the pages put something like 'Red Widgets by XYZ Company' not the other way round. I usually tend to put the company name in the title only on the about or contact page.

sudhani will try to find back the thread I read this from.

Janeth no pb I don't think that Black Knight and excell meant anything bad in their post(and don't worry english is also my second language ;-) )

I am not 100% sure about the comment tag(google seems to ignore it), but the noscript tag is 'read' by robots and if used and/or abused it can boosts sites ranking (at least it still did a couple of weeks ago).

Leo

Christian_SEO

10-28-2003, 06:37 PM

Just a comment on comments...

We still add the description as an HTML comment because some sites will not use the description tag and WILL use the first text they see after the CLOSE HEAD tag.

I cannot confirm if and where this works, but we have not seen any site suffer for it, so we still add it.

Thanks,
Christian

janeth

10-28-2003, 06:47 PM

Thanks Christian,
That was all I was saying little things that can help. It may take 20 little things to make a difference but they do add up.
I'm not sure nor is anyone else sure what every search engine looks at.

downstrike

10-28-2003, 08:00 PM

Here is an awesome app that was emailed to me yesterday by a company whose site I reviewed in one of the other forums.

http://www.instantposition.com/seo_doctor.cfm

Really opened my eyes to what I was missing on some of my sites.

Did SEO Doctor actually work when you tried it? Its report repeatedly contradicts itself, telling me that my keyword was not found, and then highlighting the text in which the keyword is found. I saw this page before, and concluded that it was trying to scam me into thinking my pages were worse than they really are.

That isn't to say it has no value. It showed me that my meta tags weren't recognized because a WYSIWYG I edited with stripped the quote marks from around the name fields. That explains a few things, for sure.

Rod Swift

10-28-2003, 08:04 PM

Thanks ghstdrgns for the great link to instantposition.com. Most of my clients sites were in the 20 to 25 region so futher optimisation is possible.

I totally agree with the advice given to date, but one thing not mentioned is gateway pages. I have used these to get a top 5 position for a client in many areas by putting relavent unique focused content with the appropriate URL and keywords.

I also have a question. I automatically submit a clients web site to the express submission services and charge accordingly. I do this on the premises that a paying client will be treated better then a non-paying. The search engines quarentee spidering in return for the fee. However, if I don't do this and have good links to the site will it be spidered as often and will its ranking be as good?

Alan J

10-28-2003, 09:09 PM

I have to say this has been a great, and very useful topic - well done Janeth for starting it off.

Just to add to some of the points raised (as no one has mentioned it!) optimisation differs for each search engine. For example, with Google you need to be careful how many times you use your key words in the ALT tags. Also text in the ALT tags (in total) should not exceed 38 words. In addition Google does not read Meta Tags.

I am not saying do not use Meta Tags (heaven forbid no) always put them in because other search engines will read them.

You may well find, as I do, that a number of my pages (and those of my different sites) come up under the same key words. I read an article where the writer had said that it was more important to have your web site appear numerous times under your key words/phrase rather than be on there once, but in the top few.

The tool mentioned by Downstrike was interesting. I have used it on one of my pages to better 'optimise' it according to the 'tool' to see whether my ranking in Google for the key phrase goes up!

anuj_pandit1

10-29-2003, 03:43 AM

Hello friends, there are lot of comments on search engine ranking Algorthms by Experts,
Really i am agree with them , but also keep these points in your mind...

Following points:

>> Title should be same as Search query.
>> Usw of Mata Description, should cover the search keyword mminimum 3 times.
>> Use of affetive Meta Keywords.
>> Use op <H> tags.
>>Use of Image Tag, Image tag value should be same as main keyword.
>> Starting of page should be from main keyword.
>>Content should be same as Main Keyword
>>Web page name should be same as keyword.
>> Keep Eyes: Density
prominance
Frequency
Proximity

>>Link Exchange, because your link exchane shows it that how much you are popular.
>> Use of title tag in hyperlinks.
>>Use of Robots.
>> Website Design should be according the Search Engine Rules.

Keep these points in mind and do market well by using other resources, then UUU will get good amount of visitors at your website.

<< Search engine do not have relation with any website, the relation is based at Algorithms so its on UUU how much distance you will cover.... >>

Hoping it will help UUU >>>>>>>>

Regards
Alok Kumar Upadhyay

jackson992

10-29-2003, 04:13 AM

Just want to clarify one thing you posted. Isn't Google the only place where link exchange makes a difference?

ketyap

10-29-2003, 07:57 AM

simonm

10-29-2003, 08:57 AM

What about meta titles associated with links as in:

<DIV align=right>Home Page (/index.htm)</DIV></TD>

Where the title "return to home page" acts as an alt tag for the visible link "Home page"

le_gber

10-29-2003, 09:39 AM

simonm that the link's title attribute: again usability but also helps in SEO. thingy I talked about ;)

jackson992 the backlink count is the based on how google works but like with every success story your competitor won't be long to include it in their way of ranking site. I am sure that most of them already do the only thing is that they don't advertise it through a tool (like the goolgebar)

Leo

scootertopia

10-29-2003, 11:13 AM

Hello All,
Thank you for the insight. I am new at this and really enjoy learning as I struggle with getting listed in google.
What do you think about using the table summary tag? Is it a useful tool for SEO?

Hello Christian, thanks for your help, sorry it has been so long since my last post.
Peace,
Mike

voodooboy

10-29-2003, 01:43 PM

Black Knight

10-29-2003, 03:13 PM

Just want to clarify one thing you posted. Isn't Google the only place where link exchange makes a difference?

No. Google has made it a major part of their USP but it was Altavista who really first spoke about Link Popularity. All of the major search engines use link analysis and link popularity to some extent, though Google, Teoma and Wisenut all use it more heavily and obviously than most others.

Some Further Reading (for those interested)

The Term Vector Database
http://www9.org/w9cdrom/159/159.html

WTMS: A System for Collecting and Analyzing Topic-Specific Web Information
http://www9.org/w9cdrom/293/293.html

Graph Structure in the web
http://www9.org/w9cdrom/160/160.html

On Near-Uniform URL Sampling
http://www9.org/w9cdrom/88/88.html

Mining the Web for Relations
http://www9.org/w9cdrom/363/363.html

What is this Page Known for? Computing Web Page Reputations
http://www9.org/w9cdrom/368/368.html

A lot of the above all have bearing on Term Vectors or Theme Vectors which has created widespread discussion of 'themes' analysis in search engines. See my article on Vertical Themes Vectoring and theme-based ranking (http://www.webmarketingplus.co.uk/seo_positioning/tutorials/vertical_themes_1.html) for a more plain-english analysis of Themes and Term Vectors and what they actually are for.

jackson992

10-29-2003, 08:56 PM

Now I really am going to be sick. Basing placement on links to your site is stupid

minstrel

10-29-2003, 09:23 PM

Now I really am going to be sick. Basing placement on links to your site is stupid

Oh? What would you prefer it to be based on?

Or let's put it this way:

(1) You are designing a new search engine that will quickly sift through the mass of websites out there and deliver to the client an ordered list of links relevant to the word or phrase used for the search - how would you do that?

(2) Why do you think that Google is so popular? Why is it that Google (so far at least) has been so successful in such a short period of time at displacing the other major search engines that preceded it and managed to stay ahead (so far at least) of newer search engines that have emerged as challengers?

jackson992

10-29-2003, 09:32 PM

Minstrel:

To me the search engines should be based on good SEO. This does not include links to your site. It includes good keyword density, researching your keywords, good site design and layout. Having too many links going away from your site is bad anyways. And let's face it, few people are going to link to you without a link back to them in return. I have been stuck at PR 3 forever. It used to bother me but now I realize that PR is meaningless

minstrel

10-29-2003, 10:33 PM

Warning: I apologize in advance - I seem to be slipping into pedantic mode again (stop me before I bore everyone to death!).

To me the search engines should be based on good SEO. This does not include links to your site. It includes good keyword density, researching your keywords, good site design and layout.

That may be a partial answer to the questions I posed, but, again, if it's a bad thing why has this approach been so successful for Google? And what is the best way to evaluate how accurately those keywords define the content and value of the content on a particular site? Good site design and layout won't attest to the value of what you have to say or of the services you offer - although it will help to keep visitors to your site on and returning to your site. That's why the idea of using some sort of algorithm using links to your site to evaluate quality of your site came into being. Wait two or three years and we may all be using something quite different.

Having too many links going away from your site is bad anyways.

Why? and who defines what is "too many"?

And let's face it, few people are going to link to you without a link back to them in return.

Well, perhaps... but (I hope this doesn't come across as arrogant) in fact I do just that... my website is designed as a resource for clients and people in similar circumstances to my clients. I search for helpful resources and when I find one I add it to my directories - I don't ask for reciprocal links and in fact most of the time I don't even correspond with the resource, unless the way I find out about the site is because they contact me asking for a link - in that case, if I see it as something that is likely to be useful to my audience (and I guess enhance the reputation of my site), I add it; if not, I politely decline.

I have been stuck at PR 3 forever. It used to bother me but now I realize that PR is meaningless

Maybe it is... I didn't use to pay much attention to PR and since I found out what it was I seem to have been stuck at 4. I'm not doing anything deliberately to change that because I don't really know how and I don't think it's the bottom line for me anyway - I just want to see my site come up within the first 10-20 items on every search engine possible when someone types in words that are relevant to my site. Whatever helps to do that is what I need to do... NOW... what works today may be different from what works tomorrow.

(Yikes... do I ever shurt the heck up? Okay... out. Rack me!)

graham harris

10-30-2003, 10:22 AM

janeth,

Thank you. I have followed your ideas and moved my site www.desktop-meditation.com to number one if you search on desktop meditation, whereas previously it was unheard of.

I am new to creating web sites and I have nothing but praise for WebProWorld and the assistance you and others have given

Once again a big thankyou.

Graham

jackson992

10-30-2003, 11:22 AM

Thx for replying Minstrel. Please do feel free to keep talking. I enjoy your views and I'm sure others do too. As you prolly can tell. I'm blowing off steam because of my low PR lol. I do question how Google or another search engine can say a site is a quality site just because ti's linked up with high PR sites however. If we go by this, the sites linking could be crappy but just have a lot of links to them. Please tell me I misunderstood here

minstrel

10-30-2003, 01:00 PM

As you prolly can tell, I'm blowing off steam because of my low PR lol.

I don't blame you - it would be nice to be a 10 :-) On the other hand, as I suggested, it probably makes more sense to focus on other aspects of site promotion and let PR go wherever it's going to go, since I'm not sure what directly you can do there anyway.

I do question how Google or another search engine can say a site is a quality site just because ti's linked up with high PR sites however. If we go by this, the sites linking could be crappy but just have a lot of links to them. Please tell me I misunderstood here

I don't know if anyone but Google understand completely how they do what they do, but the quality of links to your site does seem to be factor, so a "crappy site" with a lot of "crappy links" likely would not help someone get a high Google ranking. In fact, it might even get you penalized... either way, I'd focus on quality content and quality links because even if the "crappy" strategy worked, are you going to be happy with your site?

jackson992

10-30-2003, 03:19 PM

Problem is I've been doing the basics and my retail site has been up a year and still I only get 1300 visitors

janeth

10-30-2003, 03:39 PM

Hi jackson992,
The 1300 visitors is that a day a month or year?

jackson992

10-30-2003, 06:46 PM

oh sorry that's a day LOL

If that was a month or a year I think I would have killed somebody by now LOL

janeth

10-30-2003, 08:46 PM

Hi jackson992,
I guess we are talking about visitors and not hits.
1300 a day for a site that is about a year old is good. How many are you converting to customers?

jackson992

10-31-2003, 05:34 AM

It's hard to say how many orders I've had. I'm looking at about $1700 for the month. After the month is over I will figure out what my conversion is based on total traffic:) I have recently begun taking my descriptions out and it seems to have helped sales for some odd reason

ketyap

11-06-2003, 11:57 AM

Hi All,
I have updated the instantposition.com SEO Doctor tool script. So please visit it at

http://www.instantposition.com/seo_doctor.cfm

Feel free to email me any comments or suggestions you may have at ketan@instantposition.com

Thanks,
Ketan Patel

julietc

11-11-2003, 08:10 PM

Hi All,

thanks for the discussion in this and other threads - I am very new at this game and have found it tremendously helpful!

Going back to a comment from the previous page, by le_gber

<h> tags : H1 should be the title of the page and I think that because of the way it has been abused it is best to keep only one H1 tag per page that reflects the <title> tag. H1 should also appear before any other H tag and preferably at the very top of the page (very close to the body tag).Use H2 and H3 to organize your page. If you validate your page and you have more than 1 H1 tag it gives you an error and I am sure that in the near future SE will not give importance to other H1 tags on the page, or give less importance to H1 with more than, say 10-15 words (which is already a lot).

I have recently been using <h> tags to both format / optimise a web page I've been working on, but have been using H1 for the first paragraph, H2 for the 2nd and then appropriate <h> tags for other headings / sentences which I want to stand out. Obviously the first part is not the right way to do it!

My qu - should all <h> tags only be used for headings of the 10-15 words mentioned above, or is this moreso just for H1?

Hope this hasn't been answered elsewhere, have tried looking through as many posts as I can,
Cheers,
Juliet

minstrel

11-11-2003, 09:22 PM

My qu - should all <h> tags only be used for headings of the 10-15 words mentioned above, or is this more so just for H1?

As le_gber said in the bit you quoted, 10-15 words is already a lot. Think of the <Hx> tags as levels of headings for a print publication, or better still as headings and subheadings in a newspaper or magazine article. Not many newspaper headlines are as long as 15 words, let alone longer. Some paragraphs aren't much longer than 15 words...

I don't think there's any law that says you can't have as many words as you want in a heading tag but at best it would probably look ugly and what le_gber is saying is that more than that would be ignored anyway and may result in the importance of the heading being downgraded.

Shadows_Papa

11-26-2003, 01:46 PM

jackson and alok,

A question that has been bugging me for years. I hear that "link popularity" is critical, mostly to Google.
I've also been told to avoid placing links on your own site that will encourage folks to leave your site for the competition. In other words, I have them at my site, why would I want to show them the door and guide them to my competition?
So I avoid placing any links to external sites on my pages. I don't want them to leave! That being the case, I don't do link exchanges. No one really links to me because I won't link to them. The only ones that would link to my sites would be sites doing the exact same thing, or type of business.
How do you explain that?
I believe google's use of "popularity" not a good thing at all. I thought we left popularity contests in high school. I believe a page should stand on its own merits, not some contest to see how many I can get to link to me - and thus how many links I must have on my site to get them to link back to me.

Thoughts?
If a customer finds my site, should I wave the way to my competition in their face?
One way around that is that every external link would open a new browser instance - that way they never actually "leave" our site.
I just wonder if google is worth the hassle of having to maintain links to other sites that may not be so good or may not be valid after a few weeks. The only way to get links TO you is to also link TO others.

Shadows Papa
www.thequiltjunction.com
www.oldengine.org/members/billd

StarE

11-26-2003, 04:58 PM

Google does weight links to/from your site on their relevancy. So competitors would be more than relevant. Rather than focusing on them, look for informational sites related to yours.

I don't think of links as taking away visitors. I think of them as giving the visitor as much information as possible. If that information is already somewhere else on the web, I'm not going to recreate it on my site, I'm going to link to it.

-StarE

minstrel

11-26-2003, 08:49 PM

You can also have external links open in a new window so that the visitor doesn't have to leave your site to view the other page:

<A href="http://www.externalsite.com/" target="_blank">

rlrouse

11-26-2003, 09:02 PM

Google does weight links to/from your site on their relevancy.

Maybe some day, but not right now. Besides, if you use good link anchor text combined with an accurate description, there's no such thing as an irrelevent link.

Shadows_Papa

11-26-2003, 11:16 PM

>>Google does weight links to/from your site on their relevancy. So competitors would be more than relevant. Rather than focusing on them, look for informational sites related to yours. <<

Maybe on an "informational site" like a lot of you here have, however, anything related to the site www.thequiltjunction.com would be other quilting sites - competition! I know of no site that I could get to link to that site that would be "informational" that would not sell the same products we sell on that site.
I strongly doubt I'd get any other quilt stores to link to us! Imagine - K-Mart in a link exchange with WalMart - and that is what you are asking when you talk of "link exchanges". Sure, I can link that site out to fabric manufacturers sites, but that would be no benefit - isn't the benefit in who links TO YOU?
I already do use the "new window" to open the few external links - even some internal ones as I don't want them to totally leave product pages until they are ready. So, people selling merchandise, and not "giving away information" are at a strong disadvantage with google - we'd have to all link back and forth to the very people we are competing with!

Shadows Papa
any thoughts on content, ranking, etc. on www.thequiltjunction.com appreciated

DMeeks

11-27-2003, 12:06 AM

Hi Janeth ...

Great job. Most of that I've heard before, but some was new and the other stuff just confirmed what I'd heard before!

Thanks...Dan

rlrouse

11-27-2003, 08:23 AM

I've also been told to avoid placing links on your own site that will encourage folks to leave your site for the competition. In other words, I have them at my site, why would I want to show them the door and guide them to my competition?
So I avoid placing any links to external sites on my pages. I don't want them to leave! That being the case, I don't do link exchanges.

This is a common, but flawed theory. If done carefully and properly, links exchanges always result in a net gain in targeted traffic and sales in addition to the boost in search engine rankings.

Of course, if a site gets 5000 unique visitors a day and the webmaster exchanges links with a site that gets 1500, the result will be a net loss of traffic. In this case the webmaster didn't do his homwwork.

I routinely exchange links with other sites, even on the homepage, and even to direct competitors to boot. And every time I complete an exchange, my targeted traffic and sales increase. My rankings in the search engines also increase, resulting in even more traffic.

Fear of link exchanges is a primary reason why lots of sites remain stuck in place (in fact, lose ground as other sites leap-frog over them). It's also one reason why pay-per-click is the hottest thing in search engine marketing.

For the most part, I prefer to concentrate my efforts into getting free traffic as opposed to paying for it. High-quality link exchanges allow me to constantly increase my traffic and my business at little or no monetary cost.

Sure, Pay-Per-Click works, works well, and works quickly. But it's also expensive and volatile when compared to free sources of traffic. (Stop funding the campaigns and you stop receiving traffic).

Link exchanges demonstrate that a webmaster has enough confidence in the quantity and quality of his/her content, services, products, and prices to allow the potential customer to "shop around".

Of course it's wise to seek out one-way links in addition to reciprocals, and one-way links are very easy to get if you have something of value to offer in return.

I give away free software (good stuff, not junk) in exchange for links. I give away free advertising in exchange for links. I give away free services in exchange for links. Of course the value of my "gift" is directly proportional to the value of the link received in return.

The bottom line is that refusing to participate in link exchanges is failing to see the forest for the trees. This is only my opinion of course, but this opinion is based upon quite a bit of experience with link exchanges and having recieved excellent results from them.

DMeeks

11-27-2003, 09:27 AM

I agree that exchange links are a positive feature. In the old days at CompuServe many "SysOps" were very protective of their audience and felt that once they had a user they needed to lock them in. Well, those days are over. It's too easy for people to come and go to expect that you have any lock on anyone.

Instead, by developing a site that is comprehensive with its content and also a source for additional content makes your site they one they remember.

Always make sure the exchange site is good, clean and professional. If your and all linked sites are well managed, you almost become a portal!

Thanks...Dan

janeth

11-27-2003, 08:01 PM

I agree 100%

I went Christmas shopping yesterday we had been trying to find a little house for my daughter, but having a little bit of a hard time. We went in one store and the owner told us he had some on order but if we wanted to buy one now we could go up the road. He told us where to go who to talk to and everything. When we got to the store I decided I would rather do business with the guy that had helped me. I did not buy the house I decided to wait for the first guy to order.
I did go back to his store and spent $300.00 on Christmas. This is in a country where the average person makes about $30.00 a week. I'm sure the owner of the store was very surprised.
Some people probably thought the owner of that store was stupid he sent me to his competition why should he have helped me.
But I felt like because he had helped me I owned him not the owner of the other store.
I think links work the same way.

DMeeks

11-27-2003, 08:11 PM

Another similar example is when I went to a small, mom-pop hardware store looking for a unique plumbing item. This old guy said he didn't have it, but told me two places where I could find it and even how much it cost. He said he had something that might work, but I'd be better off to get what I needed from one of the other stores.

I go there for everything now. I know he won't cheat me, he won't sell me something I don't need and he will give good advice.

So, serve the customer and they will always return!

Thanks...Dan

I agree 100%

I went Christmas shopping yesterday we had been trying to find a little house for my daughter, but having a little bit of a hard time. We went in one store and the owner told us he had some on order but if we wanted to buy one now we could go up the road. He told us where to go who to talk to and everything. When we got to the store I decided I would rather do business with the guy that had helped me. I did not buy the house I decided to wait for the first guy to order.
I did go back to his store and spent $300.00 on Christmas. This is in a country where the average person makes about $30.00 a week. I'm sure the owner of the store was very surprised.
Some people probably thought the owner of that store was stupid he sent me to his competition why should he have helped me.
But I felt like because he had helped me I owned him not the owner of the other store.
I think links work the same way.

dmcgill

11-28-2003, 02:46 AM

Here is an awesome app that was emailed to me yesterday by a company whose site I reviewed in one of the other forums.

http://www.instantposition.com/seo_doctor.cfm

Really opened my eyes to what I was missing on some of my sites.

I was going to make some wize posts on here tonight but the above post caught my attention. Being an addict for new tools, I had to check it out. Great tool. I have always used webposition gold but this one is so fast it is a gas to play with. I made a site go from poor to excellent!!
Try it, you'll like it.
dmcgill

Shadows_Papa

11-28-2003, 10:51 PM

We actually not only tell people where to look if they come into our store and we don't have an item, we will actually sometimes call the other store and ask if they have it. We've been known to make 2 or 3 calls to other stores to help a customer find an item. Those people almost always come back and become good customers.
So you are stating that works on the web as well?
I can't say that I've EVER seen another quilt store web site that had any links to other stores or similar sites. I see the "hobby sites" have links to stores, but never other stores have links back to competing stores.
Are we comparing apples to apples? I know most of you have sites that are technology or software related, not "crafts".
I'm still listening.................you have my attention.

Shadows Papa

farih

11-30-2003, 09:23 PM

Hello: I have read many articles about search engines optimizations, I found same things :
Your site title must be the same as your site contents
site content must be relevent.
meta-keywords.
quality links to your web page (if the site who links to your page is well ranked in the search engine) can help.
Optimize your web page for each search engine because they work differently.

Perry

12-12-2003, 07:34 PM

"...So I avoid placing any links to external sites on my pages. I don't want them to leave!"

Well put. Of course the visitor aren't locked into that site, but you decrease your odds of them staying longer if you "wave" those other sites in front of them. That's just common sense.

"I believe google's use of 'popularity' not a good thing at all. I thought we left popularity contests in high school. I believe a page should stand on its own merits, not some contest to see how many I can get to link to me - and thus how many links I must have on my site to get them to link back to me."

Again, well put.

I have seen God-awful sites with really nothing to them, yet they exchanged links with GOOD sites!

It's like asking a bum out on the street where the best clothes' stores are.

Also, many of these sites exchanging links quite often don't really look at each other's sites.

It's dumb of owners of search engines to put a value on a site because of other sites linking to them.

All of this is pretty comical, if you think about it.

But hey, if it brings you in more visitors, and you two are selling entirely different products, why not do it?

In the near future my partner and I will be exchanging links, but the links on our site will be just that, JUST a link. There won't be any sell words along with it to get our readers to click on it. And, we will make it small, thus decreasing the chances of our visitors clicking on it, thus leaving.

Again, it's comical. We want to exchange links to get a higher ranking, but at the same time we don't want our visitors leaving our site to go over to theirs.

Of course you can tell our visitors to remember our site by bookmarking us or writing our site's address down, as a precaution, but would they??? Hmmmm....

"So you are stating that works on the web as well?
I can't say that I've EVER seen another quilt store web site that had any links to other stores or similar sites. I see the 'hobby sites' have links to stores, but never other stores have links back to competing stores.
Are we comparing apples to apples? I know most of you have sites that are technology or software related, not 'crafts'.
I'm still listening.................you have my attention."

You are absolutely right, Shadows.

I would definitely go to a brick & motar store that gave me good advice and directed me to another store that had an item I was looking for, but the Internet is something else. In most cases this doesn't apply.

(Add on to that, most, NOT ALL, people aren't the kind-hearted ones who go back to a store, just because they were directed to a better store. I wish it was so.)

The exceptions to this would be, say, About.com. They are a portal for info., so of course, many will return. They rely on ad revenue, not selling a particular item.

If I sold gift baskets, I would be foolish to exchange a link with another gift site, just so I can get that higher ranking. I would instead exchange links with a site that sells entirely different items.

I think that is what the other posters meant.

janeth

12-12-2003, 08:11 PM

Hi Perry

I had a hard time keeping up I'm not sure if your for or against link exchanges.

I will say it has helped us more then anything else we have done.

Perry

12-12-2003, 08:16 PM

Hi ya dollface.

I'm for them, but the idea of owners of search engines using it to put a value on it is pretty comical.

I edited my long-as* post to explain. ;-)

janeth

12-12-2003, 08:42 PM

That is not as funny as sending a robot out to decide who has the best site and getting upset when people mess with it.

I'm mean less really think about this. Who made Google, Yahoo and all these other people who they are?

janeth

12-13-2003, 06:19 AM

If I sale cars and have a #1 car dealership then yes I have great sales man a nice shop great location but my customers made me #1.

Now what happenes when I say I only sale to blonds and you have to where a blue dress and your shoes need to match the dress.

Google needs to think about where they came from I'm ready to get some pop corn and watch the war between Google, Yahoo and MSN but I would love to see a nobody come from no where and take the whole thing.

minstrel

12-13-2003, 09:55 AM

Now what happenes when I say I only sell to blonds and you have to wear a blue dress and your shoes need to match the dress.
Yikes! Where the heck did I put my blue shoes? And my blonde dress?

More seriously, your analogy doesn't really fit. The search engines owners aren't saying that your site has to look a certain way - they're saying they have guidelines and/or rules and following them will be more likely to result in listing well than breaking them. So in the example of your car dealership, they'll sell to you if you have the money or credit to purchase something and if you obey the general rules of the showroom, like don't sit your coffee cup down on the upholstery of that new car or butt out cigarettes on the roof or come in drunk and start yelling at the other customers.

janeth

12-13-2003, 10:20 AM

minstrel

Google goes further then that

ren23

12-17-2003, 05:17 PM

minstrel

12-17-2003, 09:23 PM

"Email addresses on every page - make sure it matches the domain name in the web site address."

We have a main site with 8 other domains linked to it. All of our email comes to addresses @ our main site name. How important is it that the email address on each page match the domain name?
I didn't even notice that item in the list above until you quoted it, and I've never heard of that before. I wouldn't worry - I've never heard of anyone being penalized for posting an email address that is different from "contactme@mydomainname.com".

janeth

12-17-2003, 09:28 PM

Some of the directories do look at the email and a lot of your customers.

I know I look at that when I´m buying something online.

Unclefussy

12-25-2003, 11:22 AM

"...So I avoid placing any links to external sites on my pages. I don't want them to leave!"

That is why I have them open in a new window, then when they close that I am still there.

"So you are stating that works on the web as well?
I can't say that I've EVER seen another quilt store web site that had any links to other stores or similar sites. I see the 'hobby sites' have links to stores, but never other stores have links back to competing stores.
Are we comparing apples to apples? I know most of you have sites that are technology or software related, not 'crafts'.

Have a look at our site, we trade links and have from the begining,, 1998 ,, www.quiltsbycindy.com
Do note that I am curently rebuilding the entire site. Am going to try to launch today...;-)
Here is what the rebuild is looking like, got a lot to do yet.
www.quiltsbycindy.com/index2.html

If I sold gift baskets, I would be foolish to exchange a link with another gift site, just so I can get that higher ranking. I would instead exchange links with a site that sells entirely different items.

So stay away from the quilt sites and go with say, quilt rack, or baby crib sites?

ronniethedodger

12-25-2003, 03:20 PM

"Email addresses on every page - make sure it matches the domain name in the web site address."

We have a main site with 8 other domains linked to it. All of our email comes to addresses @ our main site name. How important is it that the email address on each page match the domain name?

Thanks

My opinion is that it is more comforting to the consumer that the email domain matches the domain that they are looking at. This feeling of discomfort is amplified moreso if the email domain is something like ordertoday@freemail.com.

If you have a hosting service that includes email with it...you can always forward that mail to another account on a different domain.

ronniethedodger

12-25-2003, 03:26 PM

If I sold gift baskets, I would be foolish to exchange a link with another gift site, just so I can get that higher ranking. I would instead exchange links with a site that sells entirely different items.

So stay away from the quilt sites and go with say, quilt rack, or baby crib sites?

Exchanging links with like sites, even direct competitors, is always a good idea. I do it and you should too.

But it just boils down to how comfortable you feel about it I guess. We are not afraid of the competition in our case...quite the opposite frankly. Even though we sell a lot of the same products, that is as far as the similarites goes. We have them beat on prices and customer service...so when you look at it from that point of view I guess we are not exchanging with like sites after all. ;0)

Unclefussy

12-25-2003, 03:32 PM

ronniethedodger

12-25-2003, 04:08 PM

Exchanging links with like sites, even direct competitors, is always a good idea. I do it and you should too.

That is what I learned back in the late 90's and I have stuck to that thought, I have a small links page nothing huge.

yep...can't go wrong with a like site. They are one of the best to have in my opinion and do you the most good.

And like you said...they are buried on your link pages. I mean how often have you seen a referral from one of these links show up in your server logs? I see them from time to time, but in all acuality it is probably the site owner doing is own link verifications.

The links I always avoid are casinos, adult sites, and foo-foo quilting sites...the latter type especially! ;0)

janeth

12-25-2003, 06:09 PM

I have had people looking for something and do a search on Google my link page come up they find what there looking for then they take a look at my site while there already there and I end up selling them something even though that is not what they set out looking for.

janeth

12-26-2003, 11:09 AM

I will have a totaly new design on line in about 8 hours.

So at this time we are checking to make sure we have all the things search engines look at on each page.

apisdesign

12-27-2003, 01:33 PM

Typically, I don't like to jump into the fray this late in the game, but this thread has been quite fascinating and quite eye-opening for me.

Not in terms of the tricks of the trade, mind you (how to rank well on search engines, etc.) but in terms of the ignorance and division of opinions.

I have read posts that are close-minded, witless, ignorant, even sexist and rude. I had hoped for much better from this community as a whole. Alas, no one can control what other people say or how they say it. That's the beauty of free speech after all.

This thread started out as one trying to create an exhaustive list of what search engines look for. In my opinion, the very question itself is flawed.

1. Different search engines will look for different things: link popularity, meta tags, out-going links, relevant content, etc.
2. Different search engines will NOT look for different things
3. Nobody knows for sure what each search engine looks for

It seems as though this topic is like a dog chasing its tail - circular and never-ending.

-------------------------

Having said that, there has been some fantastic advice given here. Advice that is worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars to people who require SEO services. For those of you junior SEO people out there, my advice to you is to carefully pick and choose what you take away from this thread and what you leave behind.

Trust some of the experts: janeth, rlrouse, minstrel, ronniethedodger - just to name a few.

How you choose to interpret what others have written (including me)... that I will leave to your better judgement.

On a more philosophical note, when you're trying to 'guess' what search engines are looking for, why don't you act like their customers? Pretend you're someone who's using a search engine to find information about something (shoudn't be that much of a stretch - you probably already do it 50 times a day).

- What term(s) would you search on?
- What sort of content would you expect to see on the resulting site?
- How important is load time?
- Would you like to see some additional links as resources?
- etc, etc, etc.

This should help you to figure out what the search engines are looking for, shoudn't it? After all, all their work is done to help you achieve your goals, right? Don't fight the search engines; work with them. You are, after all, their clients.

I will end with another $0.02 of wisdom:
Search engines want to provide relevant results. They don't appreciate trickery or 'over-optimization'. If you play the game and try to outsmart them, you will lose. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but you will lose. Try common sense on for size and see how that works for you.

minstrel

12-27-2003, 03:09 PM

Excellent post, Robin! Especially these two points:

when you're trying to 'guess' what search engines are looking for, why don't you act like their customers? Pretend you're someone who's using a search engine to find information about something...
- What term(s) would you search on?
- What sort of content would you expect to see on the resulting site?
- How important is load time?
- Would you like to see some additional links as resources?
- etc, etc, etc.
If you ask these sorts of questions about ALL aspects of your website - design, navigation, content, etc., as well as SEO - it's hard to imagine that you'll go far wrong.

Search engines want to provide relevant results. They don't appreciate trickery or 'over-optimization'. If you play the game and try to outsmart them, you will lose. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but you will lose. Try common sense on for size and see how that works for you.
Again, I realize that the recent Google changes hurt some of the innocent along with the guilty, but if more people had followed this basic rule in the beginning none of what Google did would have been necessary.