View Full Version : Still not evil: Instant search a natural next step after Caffeine, but
1. Background
This
Caffeine Is Live (http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/101750-Caffeine-Is-Live?p=515819&viewfull=1#post515819)
A careful reading of the cited materials reveals that Caffeine has nothing to do with either the data captured/indexed or the SERP algorithm itself, but rather is a new processing platform that is speedier than the old.
Yes, they call it a "new indexing system." No change to ranking factors. Rather it's a significantly increased ability to crawl faster, index more quickly and store more, etc.
Not Just Live But Instant Search Results Being Tested (http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/103366-Not-Just-Live-But-Instant-Search-Results-Being-Tested?p=527072&viewfull=1#post527072)
The end of SEO and long tails? (http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/103624-The-end-of-SEO-and-long-tails?p=529179&viewfull=1#post529179)
From a birds eye point of view, this is very simple if you know the model view control pattern invented by Norwegian Trygve M. H. Reenskaug.
The ranking algorithm is as I understand it the same. Google has only changed the view. Some mean it is more user friendly some not. The majority of surfers will most probably think it makes Google faster and better. More advanced user may see it as a disadvantage and will turn it off.
If it is not made for the Norwegian browser Opera a lot of people will simply not use it because:
They will stick to their favourite browser
that some people like me think is the most secure browser.
It will have search effects for surfers of the involved browsers, simply because you search differently. It does not imply the end of SEO. Only the presentation of results has changed so far.
Very interesting reading, especially the comments:
How to make Google Instant work in Opera (http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/2010/09/09/how-to-make-google-instant-work-in-opera)
Google browser sniffing and the Open Web (http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/google-browser-sniffing-and-the-open-web)
As well as being a valuable partner to Opera, with the release of Google Chrome, Google has also become a competitor. We welcome that as more competitors means more innovation, and less likelihood that the Web will be dominated by one single vendor.
However, now Google has become a competitor with its own self interests in promoting its own browser, it brings new responsibility.
2. The responsibility of a company that has as it's motto not being evil.
Finally, we see in practice what some of us may have thought when Google launced their own browser and became a browser competitor. As an economist, I have always thought that American anti trust / competitive laws are stronger than European. Are there information in the news that indicate the opposite? It should be easy for the programmers at Google to deliver instant search by default or... :???:
3. Are these random events?
Google Instant Search And Short Cut Keys (http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/103747-Google-Instant-Search-And-Short-Cut-Keys?p=530255&viewfull=1#post530255)
See post #22
But other readers of this thread may be interested in the subject, so
I assume that you downloaded this http://www.opera.com/mobile/ software.
If yes, go to http://www.opera.com/ and mouse over the Community, Developer and Company menu.
Search engine query: "samsung galaxy S" AND "opera mini" OR "opera mobile"
P.S.
If you follow Matt Cutts [twitter.com/mattcutts] on twitter, you will note this [mattcutts.com/blog/browser/] recent blog post about a PC mag article regarding browsers. I am far from convinced.
If you listen to Cnn, you will note that Samsung advertices that Galaxy S is the best android mobile solution ever.
Back to topic:
If you look at a instant query SERPs in FF and the traditional SERPs in Opera, you will of course note that the final SERPs are identical in both browsers for the same query.
4. Google Instant is trying to kill me
Source:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/13/charlie-brooker-google-instant
At around 2pm, Google announced the final straw.
I'm starting to feel like an unwitting test subject in a global experiment conducted by Google, in which it attempts to discover how much raw information it can inject directly into my hippocampus before I crumple to the floor and start fitting uncontrollably.
That afternoon, it unveiled a new feature called Google Instant. It delivers search results before you've finished typing them. So now, if I visit Google and start typing my own name, it shows me links to Craigslist the moment I hit "C". When I add the "H", up pops the homepage for Chase online banking. By the time I've spelt out "Charlie", I'm presented with a synopsis and review score for "Charlie St Cloud", a film starring Zac Efron. Add a "Br" and Charlie Brown gazes back at me.
P.S. The reason for the down thumb of this thread is that now Google have rolled out a new platform that by default discriminate between browsers.
I am Norwegian, so I am biased:roll: Any independent comments?
morestar
09-20-2010, 01:21 PM
I will say though kgun, that Google wouldn't be considered Evil if they did leave our support for Opera. As a business they should be able to do as they like with their business and their products. There is not much evil about that.
The reason Google is so popular is because it provides a decent service that became more and more popular by it's users. With that said, simply because Google is the most successful and largest search engine in the world, it doesn't mean they have to make sure all their products and services work with others.
We all seem to try to touch on the cliche about Microsoft not being open source or dominating the market by installing their software as default into their OS. I'm of the crowd that doesn't blame Microsoft for doing such things as in my opinion it is their OS.
Either way, if support for Opera is against Google's business model with respect to Chrome I see no reason to support it. Again I am still wondering if it's an Opera problem and not Google as IE, Firefox, Safari and Chrome work well with Instant.
Tell me kgun, do you believe Google has it out for Opera!?
mjtaylor
09-20-2010, 06:22 PM
I have to say I don't see Google as evil, either. They are simply trying to make a buck. They owe nothing to any group or institution other than their stockholders. They are a US of A company doing business in the US of A way. We live in a corporatacracy and if we don't like it, perhaps we can learn to spend our money and our votes differently. Trouble is, most Americans are very, very greedy and very used to their creature comforts not to mention their guilty pleasures. I don't except myself from this generalization. And I don't see me changing quickly. Or much at all.
I watched everyone jump on the BP is evil bandwagon and I shook my head. The citizens of Louisiana made that choice, the people who drive autos in the US made the choice that led there. But no one wants to blame themselves or change. Much easier to be a victim and sit on the pity pot feeling self righteous.
Maybe I just like Google because it has always liked me well enough, but I just don't see them as evil. I see them as smart.
Tell me kgun, do you believe Google has it out for Opera!?
Do you know what browser sniffing is an how easy it can be for a platform to block / allow an user agent?
But Opera is so advanced that you can use it as if it is FireFox, and then ... You can even start chrome from Opera.
Do you know what anti trust laws are and how strong they have been traditionally in the USA?
I watched everyone jump on the BP is evil bandwagon and I shook my head.
You can not compare an accident and unfair competition under a company's control.
See my answer to morestar.
Trouble is, most Americans are very, very greedy and very used to their creature comforts not to mention their guilty pleasures.
You may know more about that than me, but if I know corporate America, I think Google will wish they had never made "instant search" exclusively for American browsers.
morestar
09-20-2010, 06:56 PM
Do you know what browser sniffing is an how easy it can be for a platform to block / allow a referrer?
Do you know what anti trust laws are and how strong they have been traditionally in the USA?
You can not compare an accident and unfair competition under a company's control.
See my answer to morestar.
I see, I see, I DO see...I obviously know a website can sniff out a browser but just couldn't see how many people who have to be suspect to this knowledge and how long it could be kept a secret? That's my question.
I see anti-trust laws being thrown all over the place. Is Google being sued for violations of anti-trust laws?
Hiding Opera's Identity from Certain Sites (http://www.opera.com/support/kb/view/843/)
Very easy. Done in seconds to identify Opera as FF or IE. I have only tested FF and you get Instant search for Google.com.
For the rest of the web, you can use Opera's advanced and rich features (like choose among as many search engines as you wan't in the browsers search field):
CTRL + F12 + Search + Add
http://help.opera.com/Windows/10.60/nb/search.html
Try mine: http://www.surftoolbar.com/
In the upper left corner choose search windows. Then in Opera try Tile and Overlap. Great if you use more than one screen and / or big screens.
I see anti-trust laws being thrown all over the place. Is Google being sued for violations of anti-trust laws?
As an economist I see it as a clear violations of anti-trust laws. I am not a lawyer.
HighFalutin
09-20-2010, 09:24 PM
I'm still not sure I like this. With each letter typed you get a different return and as each word is completed, different results. I have noticed a drop off in traffic to my site. One of my main keywords is debt consolidation; my thinking is if I target just debt I will have a better chance of coming up first for any topic debt related and and therefore more traffic and hopefully retain my normal ranking under debt consolidation as well.
Any thoughts on this, anyone?
I'm still not sure I like this. With each letter typed you get a different return and as each word is completed, different results.
Here are some interesting quotes:
So, from now on, I'm rationing my internet usage and training my mind muscles for the future. Because I can see where it's heading: a service called Google Assault that doesn't even bother to guess what you want, and simply hurls random words and sounds and images at you until you dribble all the fluid out of your body. And I know it'll kill me, unless I train my brain to withstand and ignore it. For me, the war against the machines has started in earnest.
Source:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/13/charlie-brooker-google-instant
They also state in Google DocType that is is bad code that checks for browser names:
Since there is so much bad code out there already that does check for specific browser names, some browsers have options to give out false information about who they are. – Google DocType
Why is this important? Well, in these places and others, Google’s developer documentation and PR is telling us that Google believes in the Open Web, we should test in multiple browsers, and browser sniffing is bad. With these statements, and the fact that Google is now a member of the browser market, it is clear that it is important that they do not warn users of their services against using certain browsers, or block them completely, and that they would be against such policies anyway. You could consider it an anti-competitive move if they do so, while allowing access to their own browser.
Source:http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/google-browser-sniffing-and-the-open-web
Let's be honest, there's only one reason why Google blocks Opera for a few weeks and then on pressure from Opera and its users turns OFF their browser-sniffing. And that reason is to continue to shave off users away from Opera to fool people into thinking it's Opera's problem, not Google intentionally wielding their market power. Anti-trust 101.
Source:http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/google-browser-sniffing-and-the-open-web
mjtaylor
09-21-2010, 07:46 AM
You can not compare an accident and unfair competition under a company's control.
See my answer to morestar.
Many argued that BP was in control of how much risk they were taking - and that the accident could have been avoided if the company were not "evil" ...
Many argued that BP was in control of how much risk they were taking - and that the accident could have been avoided if the company were not "evil" ...
Funny that you continue to compare this accident and a controlled action (browser sniffing followed by a block).
In our news today:
Our Petroleum Safety Authority (http://www.ptil.no/) say one of their worst case scenarios is now a reality in the Mexican Gulf. It warns that profit have higher priority than safety and that half of our our platforms are outdated. "Behind sings the large accidents" is a term used in the news. In 2009 there were 72 events with large scale accident potential.
Source: http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/71269-Bailout-the-700-billion-dilemma-and-world-markets?p=520590&viewfull=1#post520590
It was an accident. Every accident could of course be prvented if the necessary precautions were taken apriori. A posteriori we all know what should be done.
This thread is about Google and Opera and not about BP and the USA. Please don't bring it further off topic.
morestar
09-21-2010, 04:03 PM
Here are some interesting quotes:
Source:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/13/charlie-brooker-google-instant
So, from now on, I'm rationing my internet usage and training my mind muscles for the future. Because I can see where it's heading: a service called Google Assault that doesn't even bother to guess what you want, and simply hurls random words and sounds and images at you until you dribble all the fluid out of your body. And I know it'll kill me, unless I train my brain to withstand and ignore it. For me, the war against the machines has started in earnest.
Yes I've heard of Google Assault. The bright man who wrote that post was probably referring to the time when the human mind and computers will be able to communicate through thoughts and without wires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface). Sure it was a nifty way of getting traffic for Google Assault but it's nothing new and certainly wouldn't be considered an assault by Google but rather a magnificent technological breakthrough.
Re browser sniffing: kgun, could you give me a mathematical assumption as to how many people would have to be involved in a conspiracy to sniff out Opera browsers and a mathematical probability that that information could leak?
Please? I do love your math...
;)
morestar
09-21-2010, 04:10 PM
Many argued that BP was in control of how much risk they were taking - and that the accident could have been avoided if the company were not "evil" ...
It is interesting. I see that 'evil' word everywhere too - many feel that as long as a person, place or thing is above you financially it is evil.
I watched everyone jump on the BP is evil bandwagon and I shook my head. The citizens of Louisiana made that choice, the people who drive autos in the US made the choice that led there. But no one wants to blame themselves or change. Much easier to be a victim and sit on the pity pot feeling self righteous.
Exactly, it's not the easiest change to make but if anyone is to blame it's the ancestors of the area. BP is a business that did business in that area. An accident happened and BP is doing their best to clean it up, as best as human beings can. This is a case where the animosity towards BP was fabricated and pushed by someone who would benefit from it. This is just my observation, there could be several facts related to this incident where I am wrong.
Re browser sniffing: kgun, could you give me a mathematical assumption as to how many people would have to be involved in a conspiracy to sniff out Opera browsers and a mathematical probability that that information could leak?
Now, I really wonder if you know what browser sniffing is. One programmer at Google showing to management that he has learned what he and they think is a cool new programming thechnique, browser sniffing based discrimination between user agents (browsers), is enough.
The mathematical probability that that information can leak is greater than 0. For an outsider it is evident what has happened. A flag is raised when Opera is identified as the user agent, and the AJAX based presentation layer of the SERPs disabled for that and as far as I know only that browser. At the programming level it is elementary conditional branching.
But he and they may not know the antitrust implications of blocking one non American browser. It is a hostile concious action against a small Norwegian company whose browser many, me included, think is the best in the world.
morestar
09-21-2010, 11:50 PM
Now, I really wonder if you know what browser sniffing is.
Now now, being cheap doesn't become of you, really...
One programmer at Google showing to management that he has learned what he and they think is cool new programming thechnique, browser sniffing based discrimination between user agents (browsers), is enough.
I can't see a programmer going up to 'Google management' with his new 'browser sniffer code snippet' succeeding in getting his code snippet placed into Google's service. That programmer would probably have to take an oath of death. I can't see a giant corporation breaking anti-trust laws and if they are I can't go around accusing them of doing so until there is substantial proof of such behaviour - probably in a court of law.
The mathematical probability that that information can leak is greater than 0. For an outsider it is evident what has happened. A flag is raised when Opera is identified as the user agent, and the AJAX based presentation layer of the SERPs disabled for that and as far as I know only that browser. At the programming level it is elementary conditional branching.
Yes kgun, I truly do get it - browser sniffing and how simply easy it is to implement. I've done it myself for Mobile sites under PHP and ASP. Yes I understand but read my second response.
But he and they may not know the antitrust implications of blocking one non American browser. It is an hostile concious action against a small Norwegian company whose browser many think is the best in the world.
I assure you Google would be well aware of antitrust laws and their implications.
Could it be possible the default or optimized security settings for Opera could be causing the issue? Has Google addressed the issue?
Hey you could be right, but it's risky business if you ask me and I can't see Google wasting their time. They're a multi-billion dollar company that didn't get that big sabotaging browser competitors.
Could it be possible the default or optimized security settings for Opera could be causing the issue? Has Google addressed the issue?
We can not rule out that possibility, since the new AJAX presentation layer most probably involves some Java Script coding.
If that is the reason, I can not understand why Google has not contacted Opera to solve the issue.
Google has their own browser, so they shall be careful IMO to implement functionality that function in their own browser while not in a big competitors.
A sarchastic comment:
it is because american government cant control opera, only non american browser. new world order must control every single man in the world, and they cant because norway isnt in US or even EU. say no to NWO.
Source: http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/2010/09/09/how-to-make-google-instant-work-in-opera
The problem is that if you identify or mask Opera as FF or IE, world browser statisitcs will be skewed in their favour.
Also read: Opera support for Google Instant: 'Shortly' (http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20016008-264.html)
The problem is that in the mean time, there is much speculation that this is done to favour chrome and take market shares from Opera.
Matt Cutts September 17, 2010: Have you tried Chrome? (http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/browser/)
Matt Cutts Head of the webspam team at Google (http://nexwebsites.com/post/Matt-Cutts-Head-of-the-webspam-team-at-Google.aspx) Is his blog post happening at random time?
morestar
09-22-2010, 01:23 AM
A sarchastic comment:
Source: http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/2010/09/09/how-to-make-google-instant-work-in-opera
.
Also read: Opera support for Google Instant: 'Shortly' (http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20016008-264.html)
The problem is that in the mean time, there is much speculation that this is done to favour chrome and take market shares from Opera.
Matt Cutts September 17, 2010: Have you tried Chrome? (http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/browser/)
Matt Cutts Head of the webspam team at Google (http://nexwebsites.com/post/Matt-Cutts-Head-of-the-webspam-team-at-Google.aspx) Is his blog post happening at random time?
[/LIST]
OK so it looks like there just might be some sneaky dealings going on with Opera, especially based on your Opera support for Google Instant link - you just might be right. Well what can we do? It's a business! I await the day Google releases a version of Chrome that sure LOOKS like Opera, cause Opera IS nice to look at and work with.
Re: the New World Order (NWO) I've been hearing the rantings and ravings of fools for some time. Sure the New Age of Aquarius is on the Horizon but it doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong or evil with it neither does it mean that simply because they know of it's coming. It's like those funny people who interpret the mark on the Great Seal of the United States that reads "Novus ordo seclorum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_ordo_seclorum)" as New World Order when in all truth it's interpretation is New Order of the Ages. Boy the liars are running rampant these days.
I await the day Google releases a version of Chrome that sure LOOKS like Opera, cause Opera IS nice to look at and work with.
Have you tried Opera DragonFly (CTRL + Shift + I) at the bottom of the View menu? If not, take some minutes to look at the page debugging functionality that gives you without the need for a browser plugin like FireBug. If you need a more advanced debugging and networking tool, I have already drawn your attention to Fiddler that is available for all the major browsers.
FireFox and Chrome are open source available to the Opera developement team. Of course they know the functionality.
Advice:
Don't use third party tools or plug-ins on the browser you use for online shopping (http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/82564-Which-browser-Shopping-online).
Reccomend Opera for your Client, and he may thank you.
Add ons, plug-ins and toolbars involve security risks.
mjtaylor
09-22-2010, 07:51 AM
Funny that you continue to compare this accident and a controlled action (browser sniffing followed by a block).
Source: http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/71269-Bailout-the-700-billion-dilemma-and-world-markets?p=520590&viewfull=1#post520590
It was an accident. Every accident could of course be prvented if the necessary precautions were taken apriori. A posteriori we all know what should be done.
This thread is about Google and Opera and not about BP and the USA. Please don't bring it further off topic.
Metaphors can be useful. It might take looking past one's own boundaries to understand. ;)
Metaphors can be useful. It might take looking past one's own boundaries to understand. ;)
When they are relevant, yes. I personally see it as distraction and off topic to use methaphors to compare
An accident - that may be regarded as hate versus an innocent third company. What does WPW's guidelines say about that? For your best mjtaylor, stop it.
An consious (by somebody viewed as an evil action against a small company outside your borders) action by a company with monopolistic (not the same as a monopoly) power.
Again, a personal advice, stop using that story to remove foccus from the problem at hand. If you wan't a deeper discussion of Bp as an evil company, start a new thread please.
I will ignore further comments about Bp in this thread.
morestar
09-22-2010, 08:24 AM
Don't use third party tools or plug-ins on the browser you use for online shopping (http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/82564-Which-browser-Shopping-online).
I capisce...I will keep that in mind for sure kgun, again thanks...and interestingly enough, my order for amazon was just sent...meh...
mjtaylor
09-22-2010, 08:57 AM
When they are relevant, yes. I personally see it as distraction and off topic to use methaphors to compare
An accident - that may be regarded as hate versus an innocent third company. What does WPW's guidelines say about that? For your best mjtaylor, stop it.
An consious (by somebody viewed as an evil action against a small company outside your borders) action by a company with monopolistic (not the same as a monopoly) power.
Again, a personal advice, stop using that story to remove foccus from the problem at hand. If you wan't a deeper discussion of Bp as an evil company, start a new thread please.
I will ignore further comments about Bp in this thread.
I was not trying to talk about BP; I was making a point. I was not trying to remove focus from your thread. I was responding with my own personal take on calling a company evil because it doesn't fit one's personal agenda. Victim mentalities don't go far with me.
So, to the point directly. So, Google doesn't immediately make Instant Search available for Opera, the browser with the smallest market share (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp) and that is evil?
Or am I missing your point?
So, to the point directly. So, Google doesn't immediately make Instant Search available for Opera, the browser with the smallest market share (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp) and that is evil?
I have said elswere that Norwegian W3Schools browser statistics is most probably biased like many other such statistics, since sites are blocking Opera, now one of the most visited sites on the internet, and you have to use / mask Opera as FF / Ie.
I never use Opera on WPW, because vBulletin's software is so unsecure that I have to delete private date every time I log in and post. That is contra productive.
I assume you know what a circle argument is:roll:.
<off topic>
I was not trying to talk about BP; I was making a point. I was not trying to remove focus from your thread. I was responding with my own personal take on calling a company evil because it doesn't fit one's personal agenda. Victim mentalities don't go far with me.
Again very reasonable with yourself. You are clever to split other members threads. Why not split this thread so we can go deeper into the subject and compare with Exxon Valdez / ExxonMobile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil) and how that company handled a similar accident. You can start in this
http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/71269-Bailout-the-700-billion-dilemma-and-world-markets?p=407873&viewfull=1#post407873
thread.
Could be an interesting discussion how a British and how an American company handle such accidents. Bp has given up front compensation. It took 18 years before Exxon offered what I persoanlly will characterize as a symbolic compensation.;-)
</off topic>
mjtaylor
09-22-2010, 01:17 PM
I have said elswere that Norwegian W3Schools browser statistics is most probably biased like many other such statistics, since sites are blocking Opera, now one of the most visited sites on the internet, and you have to use / mask Opera as FF / Ie.
I never use Opera on WPW, because vBulletin's software is so unsecure that I have to delete private date every time I log in and post. That is contra productive.
I assume you know what a circle argument is:roll:.
<off topic>
Again very reasonable with yourself. You are clever to split other members threads. Why not split this thread so we can go deeper into the subject and compare with Exxon Valdez / ExxonMobile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil) and how that company handled a similar accident. You can start in this
http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/71269-Bailout-the-700-billion-dilemma-and-world-markets?p=407873&viewfull=1#post407873
thread.
Could be an interesting discussion how a British and how an American company handle such accidents. Bp has given up front compensation. It took 18 years before Exxon offered what I persoanlly will characterize as a symbolic compensation.;-)
</off topic>
I have probably split three threads in the years I have moderated here - I can think of only two. The reference to BP was about everyone loves to hate and blame Big Business. Google, BP, Microsoft. There always seems to be this general whine that they are out to make money as though that's not what a publicly held corporation is about.
There always seems to be this general whine that they are out to make money as though that's not what a publicly held corporation is about.
But the private enterprise economy has rules. Anti trust laws are such rules. A global company with monopolistic power discriminates a well known product from a small foreign company.
There are discussions on the internet that the reason is to take market share for their own product from the smaller company. If this product discrimination is not a breach on these laws, what is then a breach? Economists should know much more about this than lawyers. Microeconomic theory where mononopolistic competition, product discrimination etc. are central subjects in our education. I have always thought that the USA was the strongest defender of free and fair competition. Things may chage during financial crisis.