Link Value on a 'Noindex' Page

[watto]

Lets say you have two urls, both with the same pr (5 for example), same niche, both have no external links and no internal pages (it is only a 1 page site), and then you placed one external link. Would this external link be valued less if this one page website was 'noindexed'?

[govindseo]

IMO no value of link from NO-INDEX page, because no value will pass to your web if link is added to a page is not index.

[weegillis]

Noindex does not mean nofollow. One could reason that if the link is followed, it will take some juice with it to the target page. You raise an interesting question, though. Does a noindex page even have passable link juice?

[deepsand]

NoIndex means only that the data are to not be publicly displayed in the SERPs.

Said data are otherwise handled per usual, with the result that the resource can both receive and pass PR.

[chandrika]

It is an interesting question and I agree with DS, as long as the page is just "noindex" and does not "disallow" robots or have any "nofollow" attributes, the link I would expect to be treated like any other link.

The fact that the page with the "noindex" tag has a PR 5, suggests that "noindex" does not seem to figure in PR calculations and links followed from there I would expect to benefit same as from any PR 5 page.

[watto]

Thanks for the feedback guys. What if I put the question in a different way.......Would the link be more valuable if the page in question was indexed compared to the paged being noindexed?

[deepsand]

Thanks for the feedback guys. What if I put the question in a different way.......Would the link be more valuable if the page in question was indexed compared to the paged being noindexed?
It is indexed; it's simply hidden from the SERPs. That is the only effect of noindex.

Were it not indexed, it could not possibly have PR.

[watto]

If an url is hidden from the serps, then that means it is not indexed. Period!

A noindex page can still accumulate pr if there are external links pointing to this url.

So, if this page was indexed would more pr be pushed to the external link compared to this page being 'noindex'?

[deepsand]

If an url is hidden from the serps, then that means it is not indexed. Period!
Wrong; period!

There is an important distinction between that which indexed and that which is publicly visible.


A noindex page can still accumulate pr if there are external links pointing to this url.
A non-indexed resource, by definition, does not exist in the database, and is therefore is not present in the PR matrix.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/0/1/80125f33d12ceb608fdb9daec09d9c10.png
... where p1,p2,...,pN are the pages under consideration, M(pi) is the set of pages that link to pi, L(pj) is the number of outbound links on page pj, and N is the total number of pages.


So, if this page was indexed would more pr be pushed to the external link compared to this page being 'noindex'?
Asked and answered.

NoIndex does not mean non-indexed.

You appear to be conflating NoCrawl with NoIndex.

[watto]

NoCrawl????? Is this a new directive?

NoIndex does not mean non-indexed.....are you serious man? This should help clear things up for you.
http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/google-noindex-behavior/

Lets say there are 3 pages. A, B and C.

Page B is noindexed.

Page A is linking to page B and page B is linking to page C. Page A will pass pr to page B, then page B will accumulate a small percentage of page A's page rank and pass the remainder of the page rank to page C.

[deepsand]

NoCrawl????? Is this a new directive?
See nocrawl (http://www.google.com/search?q=nocrawl&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)


NoIndex does not mean non-indexed.....are you serious man?
Dead serious.

The data displayed by an SE are not index data; index data are meta-data.

Analogy - Book and its Index.

For an SE, that which is displayed in the SERPs are extracts from the content of the book; the indices (note the plural) are sets of pointers to said content.

That which is crawled is processed by the indexing engine, with the indices and the database be updated accordingly. The noindex directive merely instructs the indexing engine that the appropriate index/indices should be marked so as to suppress public display. The handling of such is not consistent across all SEs; see below for table re. such.

From http://www.seoconsultants.com/meta-tags/robots/ :


Common Usage for the Robots META Tag

The Robots META Tag is used for excluding content. We've included three (03) examples below of using the robots meta tag correctly to exclude information from search engine indexes and services.

1. A robots term of noindex allows the links on that page to be followed, even though the page is not to be indexed.

<meta name="robots" content="noindex">
2. A robots term of nofollow allows the page to be indexed, but no links from the page are followed.

<meta name="robots" content="nofollow">
3. A robots terms of noindex, nofollow neither the page or the links on that page will be followed or indexed.

<meta name="robots" content="noindex, nofollow">



As re. Matt Cutts, please read all of his statements re. both noindex and nocrawl; you will find that even in the presence of nocrawl a URL might still appear in the SERPs!

Odd, that you should ask a question, and then take issue with the answers that you receive in a manner that suggests that you think you already know the answer to your question.

[watto]

If you read my original question, I wanted to know which link would be worth more. All things being equal, a link from an indexed page or from a noindex page?

I noticed you made no mention of my post about noindex page accumulating and passing pr? no comment?

FYI - If you are talking about this found on Google http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=24933 or these on WPW http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/73544-Internal-and-external-links-and-the-rel-quot-nofollow-quot-attribute?p=409385&viewfull=1#post409385 or this http://www.webproworld.com/webmaster-forum/threads/84629-Robots.txt-amp-PageRank?p=446281&viewfull=1#post44628, then Nocrawl is NOT a robots directive.

Or http://community.seoworkers.com/threads/99-Link-Value-on-a-Noindex-Page?p=764#post764

[chandrika]

I would have thought that it went without saying, that both are equal, as long as the page is crawled, and has PR, why should it not pass PR the same way any other page passes PR? I read the page you linked to and did not find anything said by Matt Cutts there that suggested to me otherwise, but may have missed something of course. What did you find that suggested that it did not?

[watto]

as long as the page is crawled, and has PR, why should it not pass PR the same way any other page passes PR?

This is what I want to know. You ask me why should it not pass pr the same way, but I am asking you? This is my original question and I don't know the answer. Can someone show me evidence that a noindex and index page accumulate and pass the exact same amount of pr?

[chandrika]

Sorry I was speaking rhetorically. I would say that the evidence is found in the facts about how Google follows links and passes PR and how they treat a noindex page. So if we prove that a noindex page is treated the same as any other page, except only for the one factor, the fact that it does not show in search results. That would be the evidence I see of there being no difference between a link from an index and a noindex page.

I have not run specific tests however and have googled to see if anyone mentions having done so, but can not find any, but I see no evidence to the contrary either, nor can I think of any reason why it should be.

[Tubby]

Can someone show me evidence that a noindex and index page accumulate and pass the exact same amount of pr?

It would seem that you have sought opinions on several forums. No evidence seems to be forthcoming that it does not pass the same PR.

It is entirely your choice to reject members opinions and It would seem that members have offered their views and why they hold those views.

Be nice! . . .

[weegillis]

If anything of what deepsand has been posting is true, then the OP is answered: Is there any difference in PR or link juice being passed (from ...)? No. Are you looking for empirical data that refutes this? Again, on the basis of the former, who would be collecting said data, especially given this scenario?

[watto]

We really did get off track throughout this thread and deepsand and I locked horns. Not something I usually do, but in my defence when I do my research there is always testing involved. So when I give someone information I make sure I can provide proof.

Now all I was asking for was some proof that a link from a noindex page and an index page would hold the same value (given all things were equal). I didn't need a lesson on 'nocrawl', or how a 'noindex' page was different from a 'not indexed' page or hidden from the serps.

If the answer is 'no' you can not provide proof, then I wil not accept theories based on 'heresay'.


It would seem that you have sought opinions on several forums

PS - some members here seem to have an issue with the fact that I went to another forum and posted the same question. My my knowledge this was not a violation of the rules.

[deepsand]

... in my defence when I do my research there is always testing involved.
No, testing is not in all things necessary.


Now all I was asking for was some proof that a link from a noindex page and an index page would hold the same value (given all things were equal). I didn't need a lesson on 'nocrawl', or how a 'noindex' page was different from a 'not indexed' page or hidden from the serps.
That which you do not want to know and understand is key to the issue.

The definition of "noindex" is sufficient for answering the question.


If the answer is 'no' you can not provide proof, then I wil not accept theories based on 'heresay'.
Definitions are not "hearsay."


some members here seem to have an issue with the fact that I went to another forum and posted the same question.
The issue is that you there accepted without question the same answer that you'd already received here.

And, that you've the gall to then return here to demand "proof by testing?" :rolleyes:

PS: Google nowhere reveals Actual PR, making your "testing" here purely hypothetical. And, given your stance re. rejecting the hypothetical, such "testing" must be rejected.

PPS: Your hypothetical case of two pages with the "same pr (5 for example)" is based on the erroneous assumption that identical Tool Bar PRs means identical Actual PRs. A correct scenario would entail a single page, of any PR, with and without "noindex."

[Tubby]

If I were to drop a large rock out of a helicopter while hovering over the centre of a large lake. logical deduction would strongly suggest that There would have been a 'splash' . .

For someone to argue that as nobody recorded the splash, then the splash is merely hearsay - is sort of reminiscent of the question. "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody heard it, did it make a sound? "

This is not a philosophy forum!

Logical deduction works fine in this forum and to my mind perfectly reasonable and acceptable.

Maybe we should start a thread about 'Jungian philosophy' I do believe that Jung pondered this question - in 'Dreams, memories, reflections.' (many others also) It is at least thirty years ago since I pondered this question myself, So I might well require an update. . .

[chandrika]

What about hearsay from Matt Cutts...would you accept that as evidence?

Eric Enge Interviews Google’s Matt Cutts (http://www.askapache.com/seo/robotstxt-mattcutts-noindex.html)


Eric Enge : Can a NoIndex page accumulate PageRank?

Matt Cutts : A NoIndex page can accumulate PageRank, because the links are still followed outwards from a NoIndex page.

Eric Enge : So, it can accumulate and pass PageRank.

Matt Cutts : Right, and it will still accumulate PageRank, but it won’t be showing in our Index. So, I wouldn’t make a NoIndex page that itself is a dead end. You can make a NoIndex page that has links to lots of other pages.

[watto]

For someone to argue that as nobody recorded the splash, then the splash is merely hearsay - is sort of reminiscent of the question.

Tubby, I think we should be comparing apples with apples, don't you? There are too many different factors with google and there algos to simply compare my question with an example like you have given.


What about hearsay from Matt Cutts...would you accept that as evidence?

Yes I would accept Matt Cutts evidence however this still does not answer my question. I know that a 'noindex' page will accumulate pr, I know it won't be visible in the serps and I know it will still pass pr, but my question is this:

Does the noindex page pass less pr than a page that 'IS' indexed?

Ok, for years i did a 301 redirect from a .biz url I have, to my main .com site. I recently found out that the .biz url has a pr4. So I removed the 301 (because this will share the pr with all pages) and put some content on the .biz pr4, including a nice, related external link pinting to my main .com site. Because this .biz site was not indexed, I wanted to know if the link pointing to my main site would be more valuable if the .biz was indexed?

[deepsand]

Does the noindex page pass less pr than a page that 'IS' indexed?
To repeat, the only effect of noindex is to suppress display in the SERPs.

PR is a measure of probability. The probability of a link being followed is independent of whether or not the resource on which it resides is displayed in the SERPs.


Ok, for years i did a 301 redirect from a .biz url I have, to my main .com site. I recently found out that the .biz url has a pr4. So I removed the 301 (because this will share the pr with all pages) and put some content on the .biz pr4, including a nice, related external link pinting to my main .com site. Because this .biz site was not indexed, I wanted to know if the link pointing to my main site would be more valuable if the .biz was indexed?
This not the original question. :shock:

No, a link from the .biz site will not pass the same amount of PR as the 301 does. Said link will pass only (d x PR), where PR is the PageRank of the individual page on which the link resides, and d is the probability that a user viewing that page will click on it, as shown in

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/0/1/80125f33d12ceb608fdb9daec09d9c10.png

Even if such is the only link on the page, the probability of its being followed is less than 1.

Therefore, (d x PR) < PR.

Finally, the .biz entity is indexed. Were it not indexed, it could not possibly have PR, as has already been explained.

[watto]

To repeat, the only effect of noindex is to suppress display in the SERPs.

Got it. The fact that it is not displaying in the serps (noindex) has no negative effect on the amount of pr this same page can pass.


Finally, the .biz entity is indexed. Were it not indexed, it could not possibly have PR, as has already been explained.

When I make reference to a page being noindex, I am talking about a page that has incoming links, accumualtes pr and passes pr but not displayed in the serps. I only indexed the .biz url about 2 days ago. Prior to this the url had a pr4. Hence the reason for this whole discussion.

[weegillis]

I only indexed the .biz url about 2 days ago. Prior to this the url had a pr4. Hence the reason for this whole discussion.

You mean you removed the 'noindex' attribute two days ago. If the page has (had) PR4, then it was already indexed. Through one means or another the page was discovered, crawled and indexed or it wouldn't have PR value (already stated in previous posts).

[Tubby]

[QUOTE=watto;521575]
"Tubby, I think we should be comparing apples with apples, don't you? There are too many different factors with google and there algos to simply compare my question with an example like you have given. "[/B]


No. . I am not comparing apples. I am Basically stating that 'LOGICAL DEDUCTION' takes priority if the splash can not be recorded.

It simply does not matter how complex the system might be and I doubt that Google's algorithm is as complex as the planet we live on. - Logical deduction is far more effective at reaching the correct conclusion than 'emotional disbelief ' for instance.

Our planet earth is extremely complex. this does not hinder the willing to isolate contributing factors in a logical way to arrive at a conclusion.

[TrafficProducer]

Just IMHO only, I talk a lot of rubbish a lot of time.

Just remember the Internet should be about Real People, therefore someone may actually see the link on that website, if it has a high number of visitors, PR, etc

So a No-whatever may be seen as being of even Higher Real value because Google Page Park is, (mainly, OK hunderds of other factors) about sites that link to others...

So if a site links to your site with No-whatever then that link should be viewed as being even more important because it is there because it is respected and not just to try to improve Google PageRank, etc...

[Social-Media]

The interpretation of NOINDEX in a meta robots element is up to each individual search engine. They do not all handle it the same. One search engine might include a NOINDEXed page in their link graph and include it as a valid link source when calculating rankings for URLs that it links to. Another search engine might NOT do so... they might consider NOINDEX the same as NOINDEX,NOFOLLOW.

Exactly how Google, Yahoo!, Bing and other engines interpret this element at any point in time is not known, unless you have seen the current code or have the privilege of knowing someone who wrote the current code.

As far as http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/google-noindex-behavior/ (http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/google-noindex-behavior/) this was Matt soliciting opinions as to how webmasters thought they "should" handle it back in 2008. Things might be totally different now. Whether NOINDEX is treated as NOINDEX,FOLLOW or as NOINDEX,NOFOLLOW at the various engines likely depends on whether or not pages with NOINDEX in the meta robots element are including in their link graph.

But no one here knows for sure how NOINDEX is implemented at any one search engine since algorithms are constantly changing.

[deepsand]

When I make reference to a page being noindex, I am talking about ...
To avoid confusion, though, you do need to use proper terminology, particularly when some of the terms are not intuitively clear as to their meaning, with NoIndex being a perfect example. ;-)


The interpretation of NOINDEX in a meta robots element is up to each individual search engine. They do not all handle it the same. One search engine might include a NOINDEXed page in their link graph and include it as a valid link source when calculating rankings for URLs that it links to. Another search engine might NOT do so... they might consider NOINDEX the same as NOINDEX,NOFOLLOW.

Exactly how Google, Yahoo!, Bing and other engines interpret this element at any point in time is not known, unless you have seen the current code or have the privilege of knowing someone who wrote the current code.
Given that all major SEs recognize NoIndex, NoFollow, & NoArchive - see section entitle "Robots META Tag Quick Reference" at Metadata Elements - Robots META Tag (http://www.seoconsultants.com/meta-tags/robots/), and that they have formally & publicly adopted the standard re. "NoFollow," is it not a bit specious to speculate that any of them should conflate the functional intent of two or more such directives?


Just remember the Internet should be about Real People, therefore someone may actually see the link on that website, if it has a high number of visitors, PR, etc

So a No-whatever may be seen as being of even Higher Real value because Google Page Park is, (mainly, OK hunderds of other factors) about sites that link to others...

So if a site links to your site with No-whatever then that link should be viewed as being even more important because it is there because it is respected and not just to try to improve Google PageRank, etc...
The PageRank algorithm, however, is not about real people; its a purely mechanistic calculation of the probability of a resource being requested by way of a stochastic random walk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_walk).

[weegillis]

Segue:
noindex,nofollow OR noindex, nofollow ... Is nomenclature a factor or is either form of multiple values parsed equivalently?
//

More on topic,

I fail to see that a spec that has been agreed upon for some time should result in confusion or discrepancy. If a robot is told "don't index this," then it shouldn't index it. I don't see a nofollow implied, though it might be inferred, forcing one to pull a dofollow card. Given the percentages of those that do comply with mutually exclusive directives, I should think that these inferences are few.

[deepsand]

noindex,nofollow OR noindex, nofollow ... Is nomenclature a factor or is either form of multiple values parsed equivalently?
All Meta Tags are commutative; i.e., order is immaterial.


I fail to see that a spec that has been agreed upon for some time should result in confusion or discrepancy. If a robot is told "don't index this," then it shouldn't index it. I don't see a nofollow implied, though it might be inferred, forcing one to pull a dofollow card.
Kinda hard to do, as there is no "DoFollow" card in the deck.


Given the percentages of those that do comply with mutually exclusive directives, I should think that these inferences are few.
Presumably you mean "independent."

[deepsand]

I only indexed the .biz url about 2 days ago. Prior to this the url had a pr4. Hence the reason for this whole discussion.
Missed seeing this earlier.

So long as the 301 re-direct remains, the presence or absence of NoFollow is immaterial; a resource that is marked as permanently moved will not be publicly displayed. Only the content at the new URL will be potentially shown in the SERPs.

[weegillis]

Presumably you mean "independent."Okay, you got me. Independent, it is. Good catch.

[kgun]

Lets say you have two urls, both with the same pr (5 for example), same niche, both have no external links and no internal pages (it is only a 1 page site), and then you placed one external link. Would this external link be valued less if this one page website was 'noindexed'?
Could the reason for this long discussion be the ambiguity in the OP?


"Two urls, both with the same pr". What do you mean?
"Both have no external links". What do you mean?
"Would this external link be valued less if .." What do you mean by valued less?

As far as I understand you, your op post has been answered unless you meant something else.