Database may frying my brain

[wmabear54]

Hello Everybody

I may be way out of my league for the time being but I want to learn. I figure the best way to learn is by doing. I seem to be getting along with DWMX ver. 6 very well. I am building a new web site to sell products I have all of the basic ideas of how I want it to look and feel. I have the structure of how I want it designed. I got through the process of server side includes very easily.

The hosting company that I am signed with seems to be fine and offer the features that will work well for me Cpanel Version/Build 9.2.0-STABLE Build 25, Operating System Linux, Apache Version 1.3.29 (Unix), Perl Version 5.8.1 Perl Path /usr/bin/perl Installed Perl Modules, PHP Version 4.3.3, Mysql Version 4.0.18-standard
.
What my plan is is to build databases to hold and contain information to populate the interior pages of the site which will not only include images, price, description but also title, description and keywords and also html to generate related products links that will be dynamically inserted at the bottom of the page could be anyshere from 7 or 8 items to 25 or 30 related items.

Here's where the problem is I have very very limited knowledge of databases, I have downloaded from swamp a package of mysql, apache and php to my local machine which is only XP Home. If some of you more knowledgable people would steer me in the direction of some step by step tutorials that may be of help to me, I may be asking because of brain fry.

Mike

P.S. this is my new http://www.giftdealsgalore.com
also anothe test page http://www.giftdealsgalore.com/Untitled-1.htm

[Andilinks]

I have very very limited knowledge of databases

Learning and designing your own databases can be quite a challenge, especially when you have a business to run at the same time.

You may want to look into catalog or content management software that has already forseen some of the problems you face.

You should also look into shopping cart and e-commerce software packages also which anticipate the needs of merchants.

No need to reinvent the wheel. Though choosing the right wheel for your needs can be daunting as well.

I do not have any direct experience with this software but I'm sure others here have.

In the mean time I do have such software listed here:

e-commerce:
http://www.andilinks.com/wbd.htm#24060
catalog and content mgmt:
http://www.andilinks.com/ctm.htm#26045
shopping cart, order process:
http://www.andilinks.com/web2.htm#23040

Good Luck.

Andi

[hugoguzman]

I agree with wmabear54. I would advise against reinventing the wheel. Finding a good content management or Shopping Cart program will save a ton of your most valuable asset...TIME!

One of my colleagues is an expert in Database Mgmt. Send me a private message and I'll be happy to get you in contact with him.

Hugo

[richkoi]

I haven't begun to design online databases yet, but I have worked on MS Access and SQLplus.

First thing to tell you (if you are making a relational database) is take a class. I am taking one right now, and even though it has frustrated me to no ends, I have been able to optimize my current databases so that I am not making redundant tables or entries.

ERR diagrams, relational schemas, and learning how to use queries helps you understand how it all works.

Does anyone know good classes or books for MYSql and PHP? They seem to be the best for online databases...

Thanks,

Rich

[rev606]

Sorry, but I have to say it -- RTFM. Both MySQL and PHP have fantastic online documentation including tutorials.

[JayDrake]

Using existing content management or shopping cart software is a great thing, but knowing it inside and out helps a lot. There are a couple ways to approach this.

You could learn php/mysql and create what you need from scratch. This is probably one of the more difficult ways of going about things for most people and will take longest to get you where you need to be. The benefits of this way is that you know exactly how it works and have set yourself on your way to being able to work with any sort of data driven php/mysql system, which is really nice.

Another route is to go ahead and find a shopping cart/content management system that fits your needs, install it based on the tutorials you can find and then adjust it as necessary. This will likely get you running fastest but you will learn to tweak that system rather than how it works. The biggest downside I find with this is that it's hard to find something that exactly meets your needs sometimes and that becomes frustrating if you don't know how the inner workings do what they do.

Sure, there's no need to reinvent the wheel, but I wouldn't want to put tractor tires on my Celica, nor would I care to put little red wagon wheels on it. Sure, every wheel out there rolls, but one engineered for your vehicle is best.

If I had the time to do a project like this, I'd do it twice. I would setup an open source project first, then come back and work on learning how to create my own which I would base loosely on what I have installed, making sure to add things the other didn't have and remove things that it did which are useless to you, with thought toward whether or not you might need it in the future.

As far as tutorials go, I haven't looked for tutorials for PHP or MySQL for quite some time so I really don't know. I use the documentation for both to figure out what to do and post questions from time to time to forums, lists and friends who know more than I do when I am stumped. That's really rather important when trying to use documentation like this because a lot of getting the answer you need is knowing the right question to ask. I'd be willing to bet that if you asked questions on these forums, several people would be willing to help and others would also be able to benefit from your experiences.

[richkoi]

Wow, I had to look up RTFM...thanks a lot! j/k :)

Rich

[jgoddard]

Windows XP Home... that will cause you problems. I don't think it can run IIS or PWS... and it has lots of other limitations on it, so even though you downloaded mySQL, PHP and Apache which "should" install properly... it will be hard to learn it when they aren't supported on XP Home. You may find problems that would work on XP Pro... if you can, I'd upgrade.

[JayDrake]

Does anyone know good classes or books for MYSql and PHP? They seem to be the best for online databases...

MySQL is a very popular database for online usage, but not necessarily the best. Don't get me wrong, I use MySQL myself and love it, but others are good also including PostgreSQL and Oracle.

MySQL is easy for beginners to use, works on a variety of operating systems, is very fast, and has a very large base of friendly, helpful users, most of which won't tell you RTFM, or at least will point you to the correct part of the manual to read.

[hupp25]

I paid money to have mine developed. Take a look and you will see why. I have images, part numbers, descriptions, list price and sale price. I load everything into a data base form and then upload it to the server. I can then just place the item number on any html page to list it live. I also have a database search to where each item is broken down into a category, subcategory, section and sub section. As in for a Bunn coffee brewer- would be in coffee brewers and accessories>>Bunn brewers>>automatics>>>low profile. This allows for easier search. There is even a place for tax rate, shipping weight and whether free ground shipping is offered. Like they said it is difficult and a lot of javascript, mysql etc. It is doing well for me and getting better.

[JayDrake]

Windows XP Home... that will cause you problems. I don't think it can run IIS or PWS... and it has lots of other limitations on it, so even though you downloaded mySQL, PHP and Apache which "should" install properly... it will be hard to learn it when they aren't supported on XP Home. You may find problems that would work on XP Pro... if you can, I'd upgrade.

Any program which runs on XP Pro should run on XP Home. IIS and PWS are irrelevant as you are, in this case, using Apache as the web server.

[simplygraphix]

I wrote a very long SQL tutorial (targetted at MySQL) and you can find it on www.webdevelopersnotes.com/tutorials/sql/index.php3
I wrote it some time back get great feedback from my visitors. Hope it is useful to the newbie.

[netman4ttm]

You have picked a great system. MySQL and PHP are really great for web sites.
Now that you have seen the manual are you ready to admit that this is not a 2 month project?

Learn the database first. Understanding the database makes learning any language that interacts with it easier. School is good, but working with someone who has worked with the database is often quicker. How much history do you need and understanding why some db's have a null and some don't isn't all that important.

Good luck and give it a year.

[Greymalkin]

>> What my plan is is to build databases to hold and contain information to populate the interior pages of the site which will not only include images, price, description but also title, description and keywords and also html to generate related products links that will be dynamically inserted at the bottom of the page could be anyshere from 7 or 8 items to 25 or 30 related items.


Sounds nice... and a lot of work ;-) I am doing something along similar lines (OK, already did it and now I am refactoring...). For the second version I chose Plone (see http://plone.org). It is nice, it is opensource and available on a bunch of platforms. Still, to 'get in' it is quite a bit of work, too. A number of issues I had to worry about with a relational database are not a problem any more. You can have Apache or IIS in front, if you'd like. You can have PostgreSQL/MySQL...Oracle in the back, if you wish. You pay with your time for the open source philosophy of the development environment and for the flexibility. I think it is worthwile and have decided to give it a try. I still have quite a way to go, but my mouth is watering:)

I think that in the US there are already some service providers offering Plone housing, but you may need to look around to find on.

Well, these were my 2 cents.

[netman4ttm]

Also, check out PHPnuke. Tear it apart to see how it was put together.

[tenaki]

Hi you can install everything on xp home but you have to make a few modifications and it is really time consuming, there is a really good tutorial here http://www.sitepoint.com/article/228but the whole thing including apache takes a load of memory and I really don't think it's worth it as there are some great free databases available.

You can find some at hotscripts and devscripts and many other places

Just re-read this thread and found this http://www.webdevelopersnotes.com/tutorials/sql/8.php3Excellent

[Peter Spear]

Hi,
it seems you are reinventing the wheel. If you want data bases for a shop..e.g. pictures of product, prices, lists etc you can do no better than use the FREE shop at oscommerce.com. It is an open source project and well proven. It also has paths to several credit card and payment methods, products due to come and specials it does it all.
regards,
Peter

[snovak]

check out 3d buzz (3dbuzz.com). They have a couple of very helpful video tutorials.. Quick to the point. You get a lot in a little amount of time. You need to become a member (free). I only suggest this because getting to know PHP and MySQL will be most usefull if you're going to continue with web tech.

I suggest also that you use OSCommerce (oscommerce.com) . I've used it for 2 sites so far and I have had few problems (only because I'm a dork and like to switch things around) :) .
have a look:
http://www.petspreferus.com
http://www.ultrasoneusa.com
I've also used Miva Merchant,
http://www.performancedir.com

hope this helps.

[mad-prices4u]

I just got some shopping cart software,it's top man.
It has wizzards and sorts of tricks its called shopping cart system, its allot easier as it practacally does it for you or use it as a temporary thing wile you learn databases.
the url is http://www.scsystem.com
and below is the version you want.
Shopping Cart System v3.2.0

Also you might want to consider open university short courses, the following link has short database course or you can do the whole web application development certificate. its an online courseand is available in most countries.
http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?Q02C39
As i am currenly doing one at the open university.
Rob

[mushroom]

The MySql PHP Apache combination is widely supported and my selection. I have working on a very large website for 1 1/2 years now, and its very intimidating.

But I would not work on a windows platform!

I purchased the latest verson of SuSe Pro ($ 89 US) which includes the above plus phpMyAdin and Quanta (a very good php editor). Set up my own in house server and write and test on the same machine.

Suse Linux is easy to inslall and lends itself easyly to dual booting.

[mushroom]

http://sourceforge.net/ has my open source projects that may be addapped to suit your needs. Or as examples of php - db usage.

[ronniethedodger]

If you want to sample the best of Open Source Content Management Systems there is a website that offers you the opportunity to "try out" some of the best open source and free php/mysql based content management systems in the world. You can log in as the administrator to any site here, thus allowing you to decide which system best suits your needs.

The site is OpensourceCMS (http://www.opensourcecms.com/) and it provides you with all the tools and information to try out any of these systems. Over 60 different systems (portal, ecommerce, blogs, elearning) are presented and made fully accessible including Drupal, wordpress, pMachine, Nucleus and OScommerce.

Listed on the left side of the page is a categorized list of 60+ CMS software. Each link will lead you to an area of the site that will give you a brief (or longer) description of each software. Along with the Admin codes to log into the software and play around with it. Also you can view your output from these sessions. The site "reloads" the software every 2 hours, so you don't have to worry about screwing anything up....God knows I did it to Drupal...hehehe.

This will take a lot of burden off of you for downloading them individually and setting them up one at a time. Since you server supports PHP and MySQL, then all of these CMS software will run on it.

Since you have already downloaded and installed a local server that will run these apps, and if you are interested in modifying them to suit your needs. Then I would suggest picking up Html-kit authoring tool. It is also free and has support for PHP. You can map your local server into the editor and it will act as a PHP interpreter -- basicly put, it will run the php scripts from within the editor.

Html-kit is available at http://www.chami.com/html-kit/

[xmx]

Hi wmabear54,

I also have cpanel installed on my server and it has a super feature called FANTASTICO.

If you check it out you will find that it provides some of the best php scripts working with MySQL database and autoinstalls them on the directory you prefer on your site.

There are available CMS scripts, shopping carts and many others.

Clearly becoming yourself an expert in creating scripts based on databases will be helpful, but you will not find it a 123 task.
It will require time and efforts.

There are good books about php and mysql, I have "PHP for the world wide web" by Larry Ullman. A good point to start.

[southplatte]

Some good info.

I agree with not wanting to re-invent the wheel as many have suggested, and osCommerce is a great way to get started. However....(thematic suspense music)

If you want to customize the osCommerce beyond the default, you will want to definitely know PHP scripts. I personally haven't been developing PHP very long, and have ran into some issues modifying the PHP code in osCommerce.

The best way I have learned is through a variety of resources, online and off.

One site is www.wdvl.com, they offer tuturials in just about anything and have some great intro PHP tutorials as well as more advanced ones pertaining to session management, and more in-depth dynamic content.

Another useful one is of course www.php.net, where you will find the "manual" for PHP.

MySql is pretty simple and straight forward, but I would suggest using a GUI front end at first, such as the MySql Control Center (available on www.mysql.com I believe). Then you can quickly create some test tables and have full control over them in a graphical format until you learn what is what, which using the gui will help you in figuring it out a bit.

Then you can move into the command line formats of MySql which many times are required when interfacing directly with some apps, though you host may have PHPMyAdmin installed, which is a PHP based GUI for MySql which is great.

For Apache, there are tons of books on it, and you can run it on just about anything. However, sometimes it is beneficial to have a linux install with it running on it because sometime it needs to be configured a certain way along with the PHP to support some "out-of-box" applications. For the most part, a default windows install does the trick.

Personally I use IIS under XP Pro with PHP and MySql and DWMX v.6. There have only been a few times when I needed to run something on Linux, and if you are creating your own application, then you should not run into that issue.

The other thing to keep in mind is keep it as simple as possible at first, then progress as your knowledge level progresses. Do not try to figure out all of PHP and MySql and implement a robust full featured web app your first several times out, and do not let that discourage you.

[ronniethedodger]

Billy - Very well laid out. Practically what I am doing except I am using Apache in lieu of IIS on Windows XP.

OSCommerce though, I am going to be getting into that myself here shortly. Have you had any experience with their support forum at all? I mean, is the technical mod support good there with a lot of info to tweak the hell out of it?

[Biffy]

Hi

Just to throw in my two-penneth. There's some very good advice in this thread. If you really want to do it yourself, you will want phpmyadmin (for mySQL administration - http://www.phpmyadmin.net/home_page/), and HTML Kit (as already detailed in this thread). I run Apache/PHP/MySQL on Windows Home and it's fine, and in fact I would recommend it for local testing. (If you have problems getting them to work like I did, you could look on sourceforge.net for PHPTriad which will install them for you).

If you want to get your site up without having to get your hands dirty, then definitely try out some of the open source content management systems mentioned, like oscommerce. One I am looking at is mamboserver (mamboserver.com) which has an e-commerce plug-in.

Do a bit of research before you decide on your approach - you'll be better off in the long run ;)

[snovak]

Billy - Very well laid out. Practically what I am doing except I am using Apache in lieu of IIS on Windows XP.

OSCommerce though, I am going to be getting into that myself here shortly. Have you had any experience with their support forum at all? I mean, is the technical mod support good there with a lot of info to tweak the hell out of it?

So far I've used OSCommerce for 2 sites.. One of which I'm getting pretty deep into (mods and such). There are a lot of great mods already written out. Support for those mods are donated by their authors. Supprisingly enough, if I've had any problems thus far, it's been answered in the forums already.

I'm pretty comfortable with php so accomplishing things that weren't already covered in a mod is cake after some hunting through code. Also the more you go through it, the more you'll see how it's put together.

I keep these in my nav bar:
http://www.oscommerce.com/community/contributions
http://forums.oscommerce.com/

[southplatte]

Ron,

I have used the forums a few times, mostly just searching for some answers and found them. I haven't gotten too invovled in modifying it yet, but in the next few weeks I will be as I am setting up two stores based on it, so hopefully all goes well.

I did find some pre-written mods for payment gateways since the solution I am using is not installed in the default package.

As snovak points out, the more you go through the pages and the code, the better you understand how it is laid out. And the forums generally have answered all my questions with me needing to post a new one.

[jomariet]

Start at the beginning. Groan if you wish but I found "MySQL and PHP for Dummies" to be a perfect place to start. To be really effective you need access to a testing server - trying the steps are more instructive than reading.

[ronniethedodger]

Biffy - Kewl. Another Html-Kit user. ;0)

I did look at Triad in the beginning, but went with XAMPP finally. It installs the Apache/MySQL/PHP along with phpMyAdmin, FTPzilla, SSL and some other things. Installation was a breeze also. Plus I am running it thru IPupdater which provides me with a static Url for my dynamic IP address ... works great for other people to view any project I am working on. (Google is even crawling parts of it now.)

Billy/Snovak - Yep, I kind of assumed that they might have a pretty good setup going for mods and authors. I have played around a lot with the phpBB forum software for the last 4 months, and they are pretty much the same in that department. Just wanted to hear it from outside sources.

I did notice they do have Authorize.NET gateway built in, and that is what I will be using. They changed their verification process here just recently, and I played hell getting that to work with a simple one product form on a couple of sites ... but now that I have experienced that part of the process, I will feel a lot more comfortable going into OSCommerce full tilt.

[wmabear54]

Hi everybody

The response to this question has been almost ouerwhelming, many great opinions and options all of which have and or will be carefully considered and most appreciated.

Oh, and XP Home seems to be a fine home for mysql on the command prompt side and operates well.

Thanks to Brittany and the team at WPW for highlighting this question and for the response from the members of the forum.

Well got to go download a ODBC driver for a graphical interface, that didn't come bundled with the swamp package.

Thanks Mike

[ronniethedodger]

Well got to go download a ODBC driver for a graphical interface, that didn't come bundled with the swamp package.


Why do you need the driver? And what graphical interface are you talking about?

Can I ask what the "swamp" package is and where you got it from?

[wmabear54]

Hi Ron

Must not need it. After I wrote that I went to command prompt and typed status and everything looked fine.


The graphical interface is I think some sort of swamp thing and it must be somethingto communicate with mysql via windows that is not working properly but it said it had no ODBC driver 3.51.

The Swamp thing was a bundled package of Apache, mysql and php that I downloaded a few days ago. I'll go back and see if I can find where I got it.

For right now just glade to be working with mysql at a command prompt

No doubt I have things mixed up. LOL

Mike

[southplatte]

If you use the MySql Control Center, you can use a GUI interface without any drivers needed. It installs easy too.

http://www.mysql.com/products/mysqlcc/

for more info about it.

There is also the adminstrator program

http://www.mysql.com/products/administrator/

I have not used this one yet

[wmabear54]

Thanks Billy

I will for sure check those out.

Mike

[wmabear54]

Hi Ron

Here is where I got the Swamp
http://www.swamp.sourceforge.net

Mike

[ronniethedodger]

Mike - I just found the Swamp project (http://sourceforge.net/projects/swamp/) at Source Forge and it appears to be a Beta project there which started back in the Win98 days. My feeling is that you may want to uninstall it and go with some of the stable or mature projects of this genre.

Here is a list of some alternative packages, some of which include additional components and utilities (such as the phpMyAdmin). While all of these are pretty good in their own right, you may not be interested in all of the extra doo-dahs that come with them.

In order of SFN Activity Ranking (highest to lowest)

Uniform Server (http://sourceforge.net/projects/miniserver/) - The minimal server solution for windows - 2.5Mb only. It includes latest versions of Apache2, Perl5, PHP4, MySQL4, phpMyAdmin,... NO INSTALLATION REQUIRED! NO REGISTRY DUST!!! Just unpack and start.

XAMPP (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xampp/) - XAMPP is a very easy to install Apache Distribution for Linux, Solaris and Windows. The package includes the Apache web server, MySQL, PHP, Perl, a FTP server and phpMyAdmin. [Note: I use this one ... not a recommendation, just a note. ;0)]

Apache2Triad (http://sourceforge.net/projects/apache2triad/) - Apache2 , OpenSSL , MySQL , PHP , Perl , Python , TCL + PHP-Nuke , PHPmyadmin , AWStats + Stunnel , SSLCert + XMail , UebiMiau , PHPXMail + SlimFTPd + Zend Optimizer , Turck MMCache , PHPcoder All latest versions , installed and configured working out of the box. [Note: Triad gets talked about a lot, and is generally considered one of the better packages. It does include Zend Optimizer too, but not all Web Hosts have it installed.]

WebServ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/webserv/) - Pre-Compiled WebServer for the Windows NT Based OS (NT, 2000, XP, 2003), Containting apache, mysql, activeperl, openssl, php, adodb, phpmyadmin, smarty, turck-mmcache, zlib packaged into a nice installer (WAMP).

Xoops Stand Alone Server (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xsas/) - A complete and painless install of Apache, PHP, Perl and XOOPS with all component pre-configured and ready to roll after installation is complete. No more messing with config files or services under any Windows environment and if you have these products.
The Control Center (http://www.mysql.com/products/mysqlcc/) that Billy mentioned is great for setting up User access rights and monitoring processes inside of the MySQL server, and I have not tried the Administrator program (http://www.mysql.com/products/administrator/) either...but if it is coming from the MySql site then it should be safe to use. Look at the docs for it to see if it will be of any value to you. Of course phpMyAdmin (http://www.phpmyadmin.net/home_page/) is a must, and will save you hours of time rather than doing everything from the mysql command prompt (yuck). Most of the packages listed above will have that included as part of the installation.

And for the editor of choice, Html-Kit of course. After you pick the package you want to go with and install it, you will then "map" Html-kit (http://www.chami.com/html-kit/) to that server on your machine. This will integrate the php interpreter and the apache and mysql servers into the editting environment of Html-kit. This allows you to write and run the applications all in one interface.

I think that would about sum it all up. Back over to you Billy. ;0)

[wmabear54]

Thanks Ron

Wow and yeah, that's great info all types of choices. You folks have me on a roll. I don't know when I will have time to hook up the two new additions to the family that I just bought. Old machines but nice.

Before I uninstall what I have I think I will finish the tutiolals for what I have, should be ready by this tonight or tommorrow AM.

I just wish I had jumped in in 1977 and had gotten interested, i think I was to interested in the party and then again in 1989 but windows was there and I took the easy way for what I needed at the time which was just word processing.

This time there are no other prororities since I got started Oct last year.

Thanks Mike

[npdavis]

It's been my experience that you need to be flexible and know as much about as many databases as you can.

Mysql is very fast for display, but keep your insert heavy applications on something more industrial strength such as Oracle, MSSQL or PostGreSQL(open source!!!). Though, I have to admit, MySQL is catching up to all of the others in every respect so the distinctions are getting a little blurry.

The more knowledge of your tools you have, and the better you leverage their strengths, the more successful you will be.

Learn the db, performance tune, and load test. You can make any of them go fast with the right design, especially if you run on a real server operating system such as unix, solaris, or linux, something that won't let you down.

If you need some help, lemme know... I'll help out for some prestige and a little cash. I am about to job hunt in a year or three, so some more public work would help.

I build web and j2ee app servers, harden and patch, compile oss, ethically hack, and program on linux boxes for a large bank using J2EE, php, some C, perl, open source databases, but can get around on any platform with a shell book. I am almost an info architect. Another 10 years and 8 more skills or so.
; )

I used to do windows and mssql, but moved to linux, oracle/solaris and pgsql/mysql 5 years ago and haven't looked back...

[southplatte]

I used to do windows and mssql, but moved to linux, oracle/solaris and pgsql/mysql 5 years ago and haven't looked back...

I came into two Sun ultra30 workstations I run solaris on and have played around with some of the sun server stuff and apache. Need to get my oracle installed to play around with it, as I took a class last year as part of my degree program, but it was just an intro to sql syntax using Oracle under windows. I also took the sun solaris admin courses, just need to go test now. For wmabear54 I suggest taking some local community college courses if available, they will give at least a hands-on intro to stuff, of course you need the drive and ambition to take it further from there. I did this for some stuff, and it helped at least get me familiar with some of the tools.

I picked up the sun machines on ebay dirt cheap ($150 & $200 on the systems & $30 for a sun 17" monitor), and they are fast enough for what I need to do right now playing around and learning on them. I also have been working on figuring out the best program to allow me to use macromedia under linux, as there are a few out there that say they can do this. If I could use them under Linux I would do away with windows on all my machines.

[jstarkweather]

I am surprised no one has mention OSCommerce. It's by far one of the most detailed and well laid out commerce application I have worked with.

www.oscommerce.com

I agree with the "don't reinvent the wheel" approach. The biggest reason to use an existing script is for security issues. 50 developers working on a project are ussually better than one. Unless of course it's my site. Lol.

Jim