I've been told that my Perl, CGI, MYSQL site is obsolete

[ericjw]

Hi folks,

I am not a back-end person, but I try my hardest to understand. I have recently been considering a phase 2 design for our site. It's a match-making style website in a niche industry. I had several programmers actually turn my work down because it was written in Perl. He then was telling me about re-engineering my site.

The site works fine, but it could really be improved with a usability expert and programmer to get the site to peak efficiency.

Do I have a dinoasar on my hands? What are the implications for future growth? Am I trying to try to grow my business on something that will be obsolete in several years?

Thanks for your insight.

[stymiee]

Perl has been passed by PHP in terms of popularity for web-based software. But Perl itself is hardly obsolete. The odds are they just don't know Perl and are trying to convince you to redo your site so they can get the job and the big payday.

You will find it a little more difficult to find Perl programmers then other more popular languages but you should still be able to do it without it costing you an arm and a leg.

(Jersey in the house!)

[kgun]

Now I am making qualified opinion and not general facts. Here is my facts.

1. I have not coded a single line in Perl and do not know the language. I know PHP fairly well.
2. I have not coded a single line in C#, but have participated on seminars demonstrating C#. To me it looked like a simplified version of C++, the same as Java IMO.
3. C++, C#, Java, PHP and Perl are all C inspired languages. C++ is the OO language I know best.

My impression:

• C# and Java are as stated above simplified versions of C++. Was C++ too difficult for mainstream developement?
• PHP is becoming a fully OO language, has a large user community, a growing number of class libraries and extensions.

All languages have their pros and cons. I do not know Ajax. PHP is very flexible, the closest you can come to JavaScript with a server side (scripting) language in creating dynamic behaviour and user interaction on a web site as far as I know. May be Perl is equally flexible. The loose typing of PHP, its inbuild variables has its advantages. Because it is an interpreted (scripting) language it is more flexible (at runt time) than a compiled language. For some dynamic webpages, you need the flexibility that only Java Script can offer and the flexibility that PHP can offer as a serverside language. I would not have written an authentication system in JavaScript. Some people would perhaps not have written it in PHP. What about Perl?

Subjective facts:

• If I should develope a number chruncing system for a financial institution today, I would definitely not use Fortran (I know fortran fairly well). But Fortran programs will continue to live for years in large financial institutions.
• According to what I have skimmed and read about Perl, Perl is comparable to PHP in functionality. I think I have read that somebody mean that Perl is better on security related projects. I am not sure how relevant that argument is today if it is true, since you can improve security in PHP (e.g. session handling) by writing your own classes.
• Time is sometimes a critical factor and you have to take a decision, I personally choose PHP as a comparable flexible interpreted language to Perl.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, soon everything starts to look like a nail. Who can hit the nail on the head?

Use the language that you master and your company / institution supports. Any better?

I am not PHP, but a little (Borland C++ Builder) religious :-)

Regarding security: If you are on an Apache server as many are, learn to tame that server, especially how to use .htaccess to improve security on your site.

I think the owner of this forum, know .htaccess better than most of us and look at the free downloads. He also knows ASP and the MS IIS web server.

Final word: The fine thing with OO PHP is that you can write a database connection class (API) that can be used independent of platform, be it MySQL, PostgreSQL ... If you do it correct, you need only change a single line in your code to change database platform.

[southplatte]

One thing to examine is how much html output is comeing from the scripts, if any, and what format is it in?

The next thing to examine, is the technolgy in use going to hamper search engine marketing of the site in terms of friendly URLs with things running via cgi and perl files?

We just took a site what was all perl and cgi and brought it inhouse for development using php and mysql - Google has indexed the site since going live, and we have gained a bit of ground on some search terms and otherwise remained the same on other key terms- which is something to definitely consider.

BTW - would you mind sharing your URL or PMing it?

[brian.mark]

Our site is done entirely in Perl. We've looked at redoing it, but haven't at this point because of the lack of payoff. We're getting the rankings we want on our current system and we can customize it easily (it's all custom programmed anyway), so what's the point in rewriting it?

As for it being a dinosaur, yes - but so is HTML. Successful sites still use HTML, and it's the same with Perl. Yahoo Finance is, for the most part, still coded in Perl.

Brian.

[southplatte]

Originally Posted by brian.mark

We're getting the rankings we want on our current system and we can customize it easily......

That is the statement I was trying to generate....I just took the long way around to do it....lol

[caromero1965]

There could be several reasons for turning down a site written in Perl... It's quite possible to write really bad Perl. (Of course, it's possible to write really bad code in any language, but I think there's probably more of it been written in Perl than a number of the other "real" programming languages out there.) And above the level of the code considered line by line, there may be architectural issues with the site as a whole that would make a rework a major headache...

If I were being asked to do a substantial rework of an existing Perl-based site of real complexity, I might want to take a look at it before saying yes, or I might just say "no, I don't think so"... Also, if any of these developers already have either an open source or self-built codebase they like to start from when doing a project, then I can see why they'd be reluctant to dig in on a project starting on someone else's codebase, esp. in Perl.

So this doesn't surprise me much, esp. in a market where a lot of developers probably aren't desparate for work.

[southplatte]

I think also something that some developers are finding is the PHP 5 is great for OOP as kgun pointed out, something that is being more and more priminent (I am not sure how well Perl is at OOP as I have never used it) and more and more taught in programming courses - I am sure kgun can elaborate on it much more, and I wouldn't mind reading a bit of it if he did - he has some great info about OOP.

[brian.mark]

Perl can do OOP fairly well, or you can ignore that aspect. It's more of the old-school guys that know Perl (me included). There are plenty of modules available through CPAN, and most scrapers are written in Perl.

If Perl dies, so do scraper sites... maybe we should encourage it, except it's still so widely used that it'd really cripple a lot of websites.

Brian.

[kgun]

Some remarks:

1. I know there is OO Perl like OO Fortran. With my knowledge of Fortran, it is difficult to see how the OO version is. I get 1,010,000 hits for
   
   object oriented fortran
   
   and 685 for
   
   "object oriented fortran"
   
   I would not use my time on OO Fortran. I have not written a single line in Perl and will not at present use my time learning Perl. My favourite language for webdevelopement is PHP, and it is becoming more and more OO. C++ is my overall favourite language and especially Borland C++ builder is a fantastic platform. Why are they so bad on marketing?
2. If you read down my site OopSchool.com, you find a lot of resources for webdevelopement in PHP. I don't know if there are so many resources in Perl.
3. For intensive number chruncing, procedural C is good enough, since there is little overhead too. For simple web applications, like simple ecommerce and content management systems, procedural PHP is good enough. But I do not know how you can develope an advanced web application with advanced API without using an object oriented framework. I repeat this statement by Harry Fuecks for the second time at WPW:
   
   "If I had one goal in mind with writing the PHP Anthololgy Object Oriented PHP solutions, it was to demonstrate just how easy it is to create intricate and powerful Web applications with the object oriented approach. In many cases, the more common procedural approach would result in unmanageable and bug-ridden "spaghetti code.""
   
4. Note PHP is interpreted code, that makes it flexible at run time, but much slower than compiled code like ASP.NET + C#.
5. Grid computing is the new buzzword. Make a Google search on grid computing, and you will see that Oracle, IBM and Sun Java are high on the SERP's (at least they were the last time I made the search).
6. Some languages are slowly dying or decreasing in use and popularity. The large online community on PHP, its flexibility, its loose typing (with its pros and cons) is the main reason why I choose PHP as may preferred web developement language. It is perhaps also the preferred language for MySQL. There are a lot of PHP functions for working with MySQL. I do not know how many there are in other languages. Now I am developing fast, and are at the level that I can "read" code. Today I saw how esy it is to implement a simple shopping chart in PHP that may be good enough for small companies.
7. For a large website project, for a bank or lare IT comapany, my preferred platform may perhaps be the Oracle data base platform and Borland C++ Builder and / or to stay in the MS camp. MS SQL server + ASP.NET (it is more than C#).
8. For my sites, PHP and MySQL is good enough.

Don't belive me, I have bought more than 10 new books on XML, CSS, OO Patterns, OO PHP. I read them like my son reads Harry Potter :-)

Email today:
Your Amazon.com order has shipped (#102-0793278-3903363)

1 Refactoring: Improving the... $46.79 1 $46.79
1 Design Patterns: Elements ... $39.59 1 $39.59
1 Professional Ajax (Program... $26.39 1 $26.39
1 PHP|Architect's Guide to P... $23.09 1 $23.09
1 PHP 5 Objects, Patterns, a... $26.39 1 $26.39
1 Pro PHP XML and Web Servic... $35.99 1 $35.99
1 AJAX and PHP: Building Res... $34.99 1 $34.99

And here is the SitePoint order:

HTML Utopia: Designing Without Tables Using C... $39.95
1 No Nonsense XML Web Development With PHP $39.95
1 DHTML Utopia: Modern Web Design Using JavaScr... $39.95
1 The CSS Anthology: 101 Essential Tips, Tricks... $39.95

Need a holiday, so I can read.

Come on WPW members, the digital road to internet2 has just started.

[kgun]

This is one of the most respected forums on the internet in my view:

Browser Capabilities Project

Look what Gary Keith writes about PHP.

That is shocking news.

[kgun]

As told above, I have never coded in Pearl. I read this on a Swedish site, Webdesignskolan today:

"PHP har likheter med CGI-script (Perl) men då CGI-script körs som egen fil så infogas PHP direkt i HTML-koden".

In English:
"PHP has similarities with CGI-script (Perl), but whereas CGI-script is run as a separate file, PHP is directly incorporated into the HTML-code."

If that is correct (regarding Pearl), it makes a great difference to me personally as PHP then should be more flexible.

Regarding my post above, I am not sure that Gary Keith has picked up the latest developements of PHP, that makes it more and more a true OOP language / script.

An example of what is possible with OO PHP:

Write your own session class to handle session variables, post 4 and 5. (Note for security reasons, I have implemented the safe form in both posts. That is 6.php = 7.php.)

OOP in PHP and MySQL tips: Start here

Background WPW thread:

php sessions for storing data

[brian.mark]

This wasn't a debate of PHP vs. Perl. This was someone concerned that Perl was obsolete. That is not the case, and you're off topic here kgun. Please leave your PHP is superior speculation (it can't be considered any more than speculation since you've never coded in Perl) to another thread. At minimum, learn to spell Perl before creating posts like this.

Brian.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by brian.mark

Perl can do OOP fairly well, or you can ignore that aspect. It's more of the old-school guys that know Perl (me included). There are plenty of modules available through CPAN, and most scrapers are written in Perl.

If Perl dies, so do scraper sites... maybe we should encourage it, except it's still so widely used that it'd really cripple a lot of websites.

Brian.

And the meaning is?

Originally Posted by brian.mark

This wasn't a debate of PHP vs. Perl. This was someone concerned that Perl was obsolete. That is not the case, and you're off topic here gkun.

My bolding:
I can read between the lines, when someone is more worried about spelling and formulating statements than giving facts, it is time to watch up. May be the thread starter can speak for himself?

If I was asking the question, I personally would like a discussion pro and contra.

Originally Posted by ericjw

.....................................

Thanks for your insight.

I have tried to give mine on PHP.

Note my initials are: kgun and not gkun

[gwhite]

Your site isn't a dinosaur, your programmers don't have enough skill. Think about this in real world terms, if you call someone to add a room onto your house and they say, oh my, this house is built with old fashioned techniques, we need to tear it down and build another, is that reasonable?

One of PHP's strengths is that it is built in with HTML, that is also a weakness. We have an application originally built in 1998 in Perl that is still quite successful, runs great not only on the web, but runs on a laptop, handheld computers and basically any machine with the ability to run Perl. Neither input or output is tied to HTML, we can use text, xml, html, pdf, xls or even other applications for input and can output to most of those as well.

[kgun]

I remeber somebody that once said:

If I know one language that will live in the future, it is FORTRAN.

Without having insider information I am sure that applications written in FORTRAN are still used in many financial institutions, and I am sure they still function.

I regard PHP's flexibility as the main advantage. It can not compete with compiled code.

[gwhite]

Originally Posted by kgun

It can not compete with compiled code.

sure it can, a web based 'hello world' program that generates html created with PHP will run better than compiled c++ with much much less effort. I guess I don't feel PHP is flexible, since it only runs under a web server and is reliant on other programs (such as mysql for the database, apache for the webserver) for it to be functional.

[southplatte]

Originally Posted by gwhite

sure it can, a web based 'hello world' program that generates html created with PHP will run better than compiled c++ with much much less effort. I guess I don't feel PHP is flexible, since it only runs under a web server and is reliant on other programs (such as mysql for the database, apache for the webserver) for it to be functional.

Okay, but PERL in terms of using data requires external data and can be used under apache and other web servers, unless you are using a flat file system which is much less effective and less performance orientend than a sql based data system, such as pgsql, or mysql, of which perl with interface I know of for sure with pgsql.

apache is the web server, and basic html needs that, so using perl, you would still need to run apache to serve the web pages - hence systems such as AwStats that are written in perl, and run as a cgi-bin under apache, IIS, and other web servers.

Now to talk flexible, you can use PHP-GTK outside of apache and use it to create cross-platform based applications that used a native compiled PHP interpreter and get about the equivalent of a Java application in terms of speed. Google php-gtk to find some great articles that explain it much more in depth. At that point you have a full GUI api/sdk and a stand-alone platform that does not require apache or any other web server.

Just my opinion using what I have gathered using PHP for several years and knowing a bit about perl.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by gwhite

Neither input or output is tied to HTML, we can use text, xml, html, pdf, xls or even other applications for input and can output to most of those as well.

Try the following KW searches:

1. parse xml with php
2. parse pdf with php
3. parse css with php
4. parse svg with php
5. parse flash with php
6. parse "photoshop files" with php
7. parse "flash files" with php
8. image manipulation with php
9. PHP web services
10. PHP SOAP
11. PHP content management system
12. PHP interface to C++
13. C++ interface to PHP

I think PHP has most of what I need for my simple web pages.

I do not need to learn every language in the world to communicate with every person I meet.

Until now: JavaScript (flexibility at browser time), PHP (flexibility at run time) and C++ (the next generation "assembler") is enough. If I should like to learn another language, it should be BETA. Rational Rose, Phyton, Eiffel, Ruby all have their own religious camp :-)

If I should write a new webbrowser with a search engine integrated into it, I would most probably use C++, even if you give a pathological example where interpreted PHP code is faster than compiled C++ code.

If I shall add 2 + 2, I do not need a supercomputer. I do that faster in my head.

May be a relevant link for somebody "over there": ionCube PHP Encoder 6.5

[mikesmith76]

so using perl, you would still need to run apache to serve the web pages

Not completely true. To serve perl created web pages yes you do need a web server (such as apache). However perl can quite happily run on the command line. In fact I think that's how it started life, parsing huge log files to make them easier to read (or so i've always been told anyways)

[southplatte]

Originally Posted by mikesmith76

Not completely true. To serve perl created web pages yes you do need a web server (such as apache). However perl can quite happily run on the command line. In fact I think that's how it started life, parsing huge log files to make them easier to read (or so i've always been told anyways)

That is what I meant, to use Perl on the web, you still need to serve any generated content (html, text, files or otherwise) through a web/ftp/mail/other server mechanism. PHP functions identically to that.

Originally Posted by gwhite

I guess I don't feel PHP is flexible, since it only runs under a web server and is reliant on other programs (such as mysql for the database, apache for the webserver) for it to be functional.

This is inaccurate is what I was trying to say. PHP can be used from a command line to interpret and run php files, php does not need html, and it only needs mysql for sql database support, but it can use flat files, pgsql, mssql, oracle among others.

I was trying to point out that PHP can be used to create command line apps, and using the GTK toolkit, GUI based stand alone apps similar to what Perl can be used for, and both of them can interface to databases, web servers, smtp, ftp and other servers.

[mikesmith76]

Thanks for clearing that up. Have you used the PHP GUI toolkit yet? Not had a chance to look into it but the idea sounds interesting

[kgun]

If you are a serious PHP developer, you should sign into one or more of the PEAR mailing lists. There is fairly heavy activity there, and you stay informed about the latest developements.

Genarally you should learn to take advantage of the class libraries that is already developed.

A nice place to start is learning to use PEAR HTML_QuickForm.

I have no relation to the author.

May be, Perl is better on log analysis, but remember, a class is an interface (API) that does what it is programmed to do. The real advantages starts when you learn how objects can interact through aggration, composition etc.

In a way "an object is a datatype", but it is not exactly that. It is much more that an user built datatype. You may iterate on integers. You may write a container of integers. In the same way you may write iterators and containers on objects. Combined with mulitiple inheritance (extension), polymorphism, encapsulation, design patterns you can write advanced web applications and web services like SOAP in PHP.

But still PHP is a primitive OO language compared to C++. As far as I know, PHP has only the default constructor, while C++ has a copy, a reference ... constructor in addtion. And it has a destructor.

<digression>
I think, if you had the Borland C++ Builder professional / enterprise and the Oracle dabase platform to develope enterprise applications, you would see the true power of web programming and OO (component oriented) developement. But that is another story. This is not rocket science. May be BETA is still 10 years ahead of time.

A company selling goods may need nothing more than a simple HTML page advertising their products.
</digression>

[southplatte]

Originally Posted by mikesmith76

Thanks for clearing that up. Have you used the PHP GUI toolkit yet? Not had a chance to look into it but the idea sounds interesting

I had downloaded it at one point, then started in on Visual Basic and C++ for a class I was taking so I have not gotten to using it. My understanding is it is still pretty rough, but progress still.

Originally Posted by kgun

But still PHP is a primitive OO language compared to C++. As far as I know, PHP has only the default constructor, while C++ has a copy, a reference ... constructor in addtion. And it has a destructor.

In terms of what kgun said about PHP being primitive OO langauge, I believe PHP 5.x is taking steps in the right way to resolve that with much better OO principles.

I still think that if a site is working well, ranking well and can be maintained with as few resources as possible (man hours, software and hardware) and can be extended to keep up with current market and design standards and trends, why mess with it, whether it is Perl, PHP, ASP, Java, or even something more.