perl language - is it dying?

[landscapeforms]

our site utilizes perl and is heavily data base driven. I'm told perl is a dying language, not being taught in colleges and therefore it's hard to hire staff to support our site. It is recommended that we migrate the site to a microsoft language and server. Is this legitimate? We are in Michigan, USA and I would prefer to keep our site support in this region of the world.

[oomwrtu]

After attempting to learn Perl (and somewhat succeeding :D ), I've found that PHP is easier to use. This could be because I have used PHP for quite a while now, and know it's syntax forwards and backwards, but I should think that if it's easy for me to use, it's also easier for everyone else. This probably means that it would be easier to find support for PHP applications; you could probably learn enough to go post your problem on a forum where someone could help you through it (cut down on costs). Just my opinion...

[KeithO]

I gotta say that Perl is on its way out. More people are adopting PHP as their language of choice for dynamic pages.

[brian.mark]

I don't think it is dying, but I think it is becoming more focused on specialized tasks. It is incredibly easy to write a spider in Perl when compared to C or PHP. Scheduled tasks run very well with Perl. System administration with Perl is also very common.

For instances where the power of Perl isn't necessary, PHP or some other language is probably a simpler and less resource intensive alternative. But with the number of core Linux features that rely heavily on Perl, I can't see it as dying.

Brian.

[Terry Van Horne]

First language I learned was Perl. I agree Perl rules for writing spiders and HTTP protocal apps. For data last I tried it with a relational database it was mucho frustrating and the code was mega bloated compared to .asp and ODBC. For pure text, nothing but nothing touches Perl for processing flatfile data! I agree it is still the Unix admins best friend. Perl on a windows machine was quite good as well other than, last I looked it wouldn't fork a process like you could on NIX.

[Easywebdev]

Using Perl for web applications is dead in the water. As many have pointed out it is and will continue to be heavily used for shell scripting in nix environments where its features excell.

Refactoring your website to a more poplular web scripting language such as php or asp is sound advice. You will find a lot more programmers with experience of those languages working in the web development areas whereas finding perl coders will be a lot harder.

[Jean-Luc]

Originally Posted by landscapeforms

I'm told perl is a dying language, not being taught in colleges and therefore it's hard to hire staff to support our site. It is recommended that we migrate the site to a microsoft language and server.

99 % Microsoft marketing BS.

Perl is a bit out of fashion, but it is still a very valid choice. PHP is the most popular web langage today. Serious PHP programmers are able to write Perl programs after less than 2 weeks of self-study. Many are able to do it within a few days.

To migrate to ASP would be a step back and a costly move.

Jean-Luc

[activeco]

Originally Posted by Jean-Luc

99 % Microsoft marketing BS.

Indeed. Perl > PHP has much more sense than Perl > asp.
However, as Easywebdev pointed out, for shell needs Perl is a logical choice while PHP is more specialized for html aplications.
I see no problem in using both at the same time and agreed, for most PHP people doing Perl for the first time is no problem at all.

[Chiefos]

Just to add a bit of an alternitive slant as this forum is very linux/php orientated.

The advise given here has been pretty accurate in that the overwelming suggestion seems to be keep the Perl scripts for server administration tasks and migrate your web layer to php.

Originally Posted by Jean-Luc

Originally Posted by Jean-Luc
99 % Microsoft marketing BS.

Well while I agree that Microsoft's marketing can be somewhat far fetched the ASP.NET/Windows server stack can offer a lot of advantages of the *nix/php stack. A relevant example here is that the .NET framework can be used both as the web layer and to extend IIS, or write windows services for scheduling, etc. Meaning that those comfortable with the architecture of a web layer in ASP.NET will find developing server administration type tasks familiar.

Serious PHP programmers are able to write Perl programs after less than 2 weeks of self-study. Many are able to do it within a few days.

I disagree with this comment as although any decent developer can easily switch syntax of a language and pick up the core functionality quick swiftly a change to any new language will bring its own series of unknowns which can be time consuming to overcome.

Additionally, php suffers from being quite easy to pick up an run with. This may seem odd but that fact that after a few hours learning you can get a simple database driven site knocked up leads to many half assed developers believing themselves competent. Don't get me wrong there are many decent php developers out there but if you are going to be switching technologies then you wont really going to know what your looking for.

There does tend to be a lot more Microsoft developers out there with some form of certification than in the php world. Though certification can only tell you so much.

At the end of the day it really is going to depend on what your doing, the microsoft option CAN be expensive, and reskilling your staff will be time consuming. So if your IT inferstructure isn't too complex then as advised move your web layer to php where possible.

With regards to more complex n-tier development then php would 'probably' be the wrong chioce, and you may need to consider either switching to the .NET platform or looking to go down the Java route.

[activeco]

Originally Posted by Chiefos

There does tend to be a lot more Microsoft developers out there with some form of certification than in the php world.

The difference between drivers only and drivers/mechanics is very significant one.
Even drivers only more like vehicles with a full access to the machine.

With regards to more complex n-tier development then php would 'probably' be the wrong chioce, and you may need to consider either switching to the .NET platform or looking to go down the Java route.

Or the best: stay with Perl.
Pro and Contra: PHP in contrast to Perl
Running together: Using Perl Code from PHP

[Chiefos]

Or the best: stay with Perl.

Maybe, but the results of the poll shows what is quite apparent to the original poster. There just aren't enough skilled Perl developers out there, and without a decent community the language support MAY dwindle in the long run.

[Chiefos]

Sorry just to clarify, I am not promoting MS technologies, I am just offering the alternative. I think that the worst thing most developers do is get emotionally attached to their languages. With the pace that this industry moves that's just career suicide.

If I were making a simple small scale site I'd go with php as its quick easy and simple. If I were working in a totally MS based environment it would be sensible to go with ASP.Net route, and although I only know a little Java I may be tempted to skill up a little more in this arena if the situation demanded it.

[wdillsmith]

I used perl back in the mid 90s, back in the days when shopping carts ran in cgi-bin. At our new company I had the chance to use whatever I wanted, so after a little research I went with PHP. PHP is much easier to understand and there is more support for it. Perl is what I call a "hard-core" programmers language. You can do really cool things in Perl, and often with very few commands. But it can be pretty cryptic, and not for faint of heart. If you've already used Perl, the transition to PHP is pretty easy. I actually have converted scripts from perl to PHP and it was pretty straightforward (e.g., search and replace elsif with elseif).

[Easywebdev]

Originally Posted by Chiefos

With regards to more complex n-tier development then php would 'probably' be the wrong chioce, and you may need to consider either switching to the .NET platform or looking to go down the Java route.

With php5 the languages object orientated support has brought it in line with the likes of asp and java. With namespacing support backported from php 6 to php5.3 then it is as fully feature rich as any competing language.

The problem with php is its earlier incarnations allowed people to study for a few days, look at some code and whip up a database driven site in a few weeks leading them to believe themselves competent programmers. Hence the php sector of developers is full of shoddy programmers compared to the .NET area where there is certification and usually classroom training (as mentioned above).

To say it is the wrong choice for complex applications is wrong. Php in the hands of a decent programmer (one who understands enterprise application design and design patterns) can easily be used to build robust complex web applications.

[kgun]

In my view, people that start with PHP today and are ready when php 6 is finished are lucky.

Some relevant links for coders:
Google Code - Summer of Code - Application Information

Google and Open Source - Google Code

An inside look at the Pattern Library » Yahoo! User Interface Blog

php 6 and mysql 5 - SitePoint Forums

On holiday I talked to a teacher at the IT institute of the University of Oslo that told me that Simula is still used to teach students OOP.

Why? Simply because Simula is a full featured nearly self documentary OOP language with multiple inheritance. Simula's son, BETA generalises the class concept. "Everything" in BETA is a pattern.

You find much more information in the last link in my signature.

Is FORTRAN dying? Is Perl dying?

I don't care and do not know.

The most popular languages today are C inspired languages and easy "dialects" of C++

[Chiefos]

With php5 the languages object orientated support has brought it in line with the likes of asp and java. With namespacing support backported from php 6 to php5.3 then it is as fully feature rich as any competing language.

Agreed, php is becoming a really feature rich language for handling the web layer of a project. But that in itself can only satisfy x amount of n-tier requirements.

For example if you have a common set of services that are to be consumed by both a web layer and a desktop app then with php you'd write your services and web layer but for the desktop you'd have to look else where (maybe c, java, or .net).

Additionally, if your system needed to perform scheduled server tasks then your relying on something like perl to take care of this.

Ultimatly, though the day that php is used as a cross platform desktop language as well as a web language is when I would consider php a nice choice.

On a side note I looked at a php IDE "phpDesigner 2008" that made hooking up php debuging pretty easy. And had support for intellisense (sorry for the MS term but I dont know how else to describe it). So good to see the tools are getting better for php development.

[emily]

Hi


I think most of the new web designers using and learning PHP, that makes perl out dated.

thanks

[Terry Van Horne]

Originally Posted by landscapeforms

our site utilizes perl and is heavily data base driven. I'm told perl is a dying language, not being taught in colleges and therefore it's hard to hire staff to support our site. It is recommended that we migrate the site to a microsoft language and server. Is this legitimate? We are in Michigan, USA and I would prefer to keep our site support in this region of the world.

I learned Perl in 98. Except for the fork function Perl for windows ran, last I looked, on Microsft exactly the same as on UNIX. If your site DB is text based then Perl is likely a good choice due to its prowess at parsing text. Ummm most programmers these days haven't gone to college they are self taught. That, said PHP is replacing Perl as the language of choice by Unix developers.

All of this sounds a little like someone is trying to sell you M$ hosting and programming. As someone who is in the process of leaving windows because of the BS of not supporting .asp and Vb and it's brother VBscript in the future I would say unless you want to replace everything every 5 or 6 years at a cost of $1000's. Don't go to windows stay on UNIX and switch to PHP from Perl, however, I disagree there is a problem with finding Perl programmers, in fact I'd say when you find one they are very experienced. Pre PHP most unix programmers were Perl programmers.

Is Perl Dying... doubt it many SEs crawlers are Perl, it rocks when it comes to processing text.

[Terry Van Horne]

Originally Posted by emily

Hi


I think most of the new web designers using and learning PHP, that makes perl out dated.

thanks

Outdated no, what it means is developers chose PHP because there are more out of the box shared scripts etc. Outdated implys not current. PERL is likely one of the best managed programming languages around.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Terry Van Horne

Outdated no, what it means is developers chose PHP because there are more out of the box shared scripts etc. Outdated implys not current. PERL is likely one of the best managed programming languages around.

And a lot of Game developers prefer:

1. C++
2. Python

since Python it is easily integrated with C++.

[Ladana]

I used Perl quite some time for websites, but there is a barely a reason to use it for that purpose nowadays. It won't be replaced anytime soon for scripting and/or automating administrative tasks on our machines however.
In general, other languages like PHP/Python/Java have many more frameworks and other tools that make web development a hell lot easier.