what is Future PHP or .NET

[maven]

hi all,

i am a bit confused about the real job market and future of these 2 languages after searching a lot on web i am not able to know what exactly is the future technology for web.

- PHP is opensource but not powerful like .NET

- .NET is powerful but desnot has free features like
PHP
- it is said that all the corporate websites are being built in .NET and thats the best for large scale application / BUT Yahoo is on PHP

- PHP is not that structure and OO like .net

- .net is not opensource or cheap like PHP

and also MONO project www.go-mono.com is coming up to provide an Opensource implementation of .NET

NOW WHAT ??? after all these pros and cons i would like to take ur views

[M0rtym0use]

Personally as an ASP developer .NET is a much more logical route than PHP.
At the moment i am in the process of implementing c#.net in my projects as in my opinion on ms hosted machines this is the way forward.

if you think back to the early days of programming there was no oo approach taken then over time oo languages such as java have been developed and are "the way forward" according to the industry experts...

to be honest though as long as php evolves to keep up with .net then the 2 will probably be around for a long long time just as MS and UNIX based systems have and will.

of course this is all just my humble opinion

MM

[CharleneH]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I have been using C# .net for almost 2 years and like it more all the time. Components that I build for one project easily migrate to other projects. Prior to asp.net I build applications in ASP so the move to .net was a no brainer.
If you are familiar with a set of tools, stay with them as long as you can.

[synergytheory]

PHP all the way.

You have unlimited free resources in the open source community, PHP does anything .NET does [but 10X quicker and easier IMO], PHP in generally run on linux, which is more secure, PHP intergrates seamlessly with mySQL, PHP is free. I could go on forever.

[hottap]

I'm with you all the way, synergytheory.
There is much more of a community for PHP development, where, because of costs, .NET is kind of limited to closed corporate users.

[maven]

i recently got a link : www.go-mono.com,

which will make the .net implementaion on opensource O.S.

after that what ???? if .net will be avaliable as opensource
where will PHP go.

all the best will be on MONO

plz chaeck out above link and Comment !

[HardCoded]

Since I for one am not convinced that .NET can do anything PHP can't do, I imagine the current (very large) base of PHP coders will be happy right where they are. Because

If you are familiar with a set of tools, stay with them as long as you can.

Nonetheless the mono project is certainly interesting. We'll need to see some benchmarks before we'll really care.

[ECommerceConversions]

I gotta go with ASP.NET. I've come to love the platform, it's OO interface, and the fact that it isn't like a sleezy java interpreter, but more like a translator.

Oh and they are working on .NET for linux platforms, and it's free (I believe).

What's also every so awesome about .NET (from the windows side) is you can write C# code, and if you need to, use DLL exports to do anything in the windows environment. (But I don't know the PHP side of the whole thing).

As for cost..... It costs money to make money. Plain and simple. That's why Microsoft has gotta charge, and that's why people gotta pay.

Plus, .NET runtime is distributed with Windows. Well, I guess you could say they did the same with VB back in the day.

Plus, .NET has made a step forward in terms of authentication and security, providing login access and roles at the machine level. It wraps itself right around the Windows Authentication system itself (although you don't have to do it that way). I'm guessing the PHP side COULD be working with logins and stuff for *nix's. Don't really know.

I guess I just have grown to love .NET. It's a lot more nicer than MFC

[HardCoded]

Yes, PHP can hook right into the standard http authentication mechanism. Or you can roll your own from a database of user/passes. Or both. Or with PHP you can hook into an LDAP server, or if you're really stuck, a plain text file.

.NET is great too, don't get me wrong. But if you don't have to pay for stuff, why pay for stuff?

[farzan]

Originally Posted by maven

hi all,
- PHP is opensource but not powerful like .NET
- .NET is powerful but desnot has free features like
PHP

What is your definition for Powerful?

- it is said that all the corporate websites are being built in .NET and thats the best for large scale application / BUT Yahoo is on PHP

- As far as I know, Yahoo uses JSP

- PHP is not that structure and OO like .net

Yes, You are right. But that is about version 4 of PHP. PHP 5 has too many extra features. Like complete and standard(?) OO and Exception handling.

- .net is not opensource or cheap like PHP

:D Thats what I like about PHP

and also MONO project www.go-mono.com is coming up to provide an

implementation of .NET

And would it be platform independent? You know, I am a Linux lover.

NOW WHAT ??? after all these pros and cons i would like to take ur views

I think I stick to PHP; after all I am sort of experienced in it.

[voodooboy]

This is actually a loaded question. The answer is both. .NET is popular among a lot of programmers because it is strictly Microsoft based, and 80% of the large corporate population is Microsoft based. Thus, .NET programmers are in high demand to keep pace with Microsoft technology. This is also based on the fact that 5 years ago, ASP was the only real option for dynamic processing. Even if an open source version of .NET comes out, it will still be primarily Microsoft dependent.

Now you actually have three major players; .NET, PHP and Cold Fusion. While Cold Fusion is popular, it is not really a standard, and costs money. While ASP.NET costs money as well, most companies would much rather curb their investment and stay with Microsoft as that is where their foundation is based and the investment in changing an entire company would not be cost effective.

.PHP is extremely popular. One, because it is Open Source (free) and two, because it can be implemented on any server format (where .NET is limited to Microsoft servers). You will begin see the trend shift. PHP will become more popular with newer growing companies while the dinosaurs are dependent on Microsoft. You also see that 97% of all leased server space is UNIX based. This lends to the PHP/MySQL programming unit and increases the value of knowing PHP.

When it comes down to what you want to learn, while they are similar and you can easily move between each other without much difficulty, you have to ask what industry are you looking to work in? Large companies with a long history or newer companies with a certain amount of capital risk? If you enjoy the risk, then go with PHP as it is growing and as Microsoft continues to dig their hole, open source will continue to grow in strength.

I wish you the best of luck.

[techboy]

I use PHP because I run on linux. From my experience with MS languages is that next year there's a new way of doing things and your code is obsolete or has to be heavily modified to be recompiled on a new version. Any code written for PHP 3 works in PHP 5. I don't think MS can say this about ASP to .NET

Just my take, don't stake me for it ;)

[JayDrake]

I'm with ghstdrgns on this one as far as the longevity of both .NET and php. Both have definite advantages and both have their own holds on the market.

That said, if I were beginning to learn web design and development right now and was trying to figure out which one to learn in pursuing a career I would choose .NET. I am a php developer and have been working for just over 3 1/2 years for PlanHouse in Jackson, Mississippi. I am happy doing what I do and would, given a choice, continue to work with PHP. Because of romantic involvements, I am currently seeking new employment in the New England area and I have quickly realized that while my preference is for PHP, most of the web development/application/programming jobs that I am able to find are either .NET or Java.

As .NET and Java currently seem to have a good hold on the web development world as far as those who are hiring in the area I want to live, I have started to work on gaining proficiency in both. In my case, I am more strongly pursuing work with Java because I have some interest in eventually working as a programmer, with the option of going back to web development when necessary.

PHP or .NET? .NET is paying right now, but so is Java and my current thoughts are that Java will give you more options than web development.

[tviman]

What's also every so awesome about .NET (from the windows side) is you can write C# code, and if you need to, use DLL exports to do anything in the windows environment.

I can see nothing but a propagation of the security problems that have plagued Microsoft. I have been able to talk all of my clients into moving to *NIX hosting platforms that use apache server software. Since then, NOT ONE has been plagued with down time due to the exploitation of IIS security holes. Allowing DLL exports in a web application to interact with the users Windows OS is just asking for more trouble than Microsoft can handle.

In case you can't tell, I'm no fan of Windows hosting platforms, and especially IIS server software.

[mojojojo]

This is always a difficult discussion to have. I know very few people that are proficient in php and .net and therefore have any authority to compare them.

Here in NZ, most Ford drivers argue that they are "better" than Holdens. However, they have probably never driven a Holden.

My point? People get attached to what they know. I am a PHP programmer and I love it. I tend to argue that it is the best language simply on principle - I am defending my decision to use it. Therefore I will always argue that my decision was the right one.

From my observations, proficient programmers will always get the results they need, regardless of the platform they use. The rest is down to personal preferrence.

[Blackicicle]

Allowing DLL exports in a web application to interact with the users Windows OS is just asking for more trouble than Microsoft can handle.

You beat me to it...

[GiftsForYouBiz]

Originally Posted by ghstdrgns

Now you actually have three major players; .NET, PHP and Cold Fusion.

Don't forget Java... and JSP... and ...

Originally Posted by ghstdrgns

When it comes down to what you want to learn, while they are similar and you can easily move between each other without much difficulty, you have to ask what industry are you looking to work in?

That's the real question; what industry do you want to be in? As for the language, anything you learn is an investment, and whether you get the job or not has as much to do with how well your resume is prepared, did you wear the right clothes, answer questions correctly, and are you someone's nephew or niece. Which language? Which country should I live in? Do I want to work with a large company, a smaller one, or do contract work and make some big bucks (at which point you can have "any" language and find some work, but the rainy seasons are much longer).

Originally Posted by mojojojo

From my observations, proficient programmers will always get the results they need, regardless of the platform they use. The rest is down to personal preferrence.

Well put, excepting the personal preference part ... did any of us learn our language based on personal preference, or were our preferences acquired along the way? Who was predisposed to learning a language based on personal preference, if you've never had any experience to judge it with?

I've worked with ASP for about 3 years, PHP for about 2, Javascript, VB, VBscript, Autolisp (for AutoCAD), have done some Actionscript and even some of Adobe's proprietary Javascript. I dabbled enough in ASP.net to know I can't afford it (and neither can my department at this point), and have dabbled in Java enough to know that I like the language, and I could (and probably will) continue to learn it, but for now, I can't stand the startup (load) time it takes for the computer to translate/interpret the code.

Aside from those points, ASP.net now has a stigma because of the instability that I found with ASP. My overall feeling is that I can communicate with and feel much more comfortable with PHP. I do believe you can get the same jobs done, and yet, for me, it's easier to do so with PHP. Unless I wanted to fork over some more money for training or videos or such to learn the new ASP.net concepts. PHP took me about 2 books and 2 web sites (http://php.net and http://phpbuilder.com) - 4 if you count http://www.mysql.com and http://groups.google.com

At this point in my life, I will continue to further my knowledge of PHP (and MySQL). I'll certainly be looking into the Mono Project too, but it will be in addition to my current skill sets, not in place of. And Java will always be in my scope as well.

Bottom line ... learn whatever you can get your hands on !!! Tomorrow they'll want TCL (http://tcl.sourceforge.net/)

[cooper]

Originally Posted by JayDrake

I'm with ghstdrgns on this one as far as the longevity of both .NET and php. Both have definite advantages and both have their own holds on the market.

I agree.

Originally Posted by JayDrake

That said, if I were beginning to learn web design and development right now and was trying to figure out which one to learn in pursuing a career I would choose .NET. I am a php developer and have been working for just over 3 1/2 years for PlanHouse in Jackson, Mississippi. I am happy doing what I do and would, given a choice, continue to work with PHP. Because of romantic involvements, I am currently seeking new employment in the New England area and I have quickly realized that while my preference is for PHP, most of the web development/application/programming jobs that I am able to find are either .NET or Java.

Keep the faith brother. Don't switch to the dark side. ;o) hahaha
Seriously though, just hang in there. PHP jobs do come along. I think it's a testimony about the PHP development community. As a whole we develop code that has staying power and as developers we tend to stay in a good situation. Right now there is a big push to migrate to .NET from classic ASP. And as ghstdrgns said, the companies that are completely Microsoft-based are updating/creating new functionality to tie-in with what the have and know. A lot of those companies can't afford to switch, or perhaps mroe appropriately, are too scared. They fear that the switch to comething like PHP/Linux will not have the short-term benefits they all want. Whereas the small companies that don't have a lot of money to spend on instituting a Microsoft only business will use the relatively "free" open source solutions like PHP and Linux. I look forward to the future of PHP and hope to have (or work for) a company that has little to no reliance upon Microsoft. Their software (operating systems and office apps) is too buggy and has inherently flawed security, as stated previously.

Originally Posted by JayDrake

As .NET and Java currently seem to have a good hold on the web development world as far as those who are hiring in the area I want to live, I have started to work on gaining proficiency in both. In my case, I am more strongly pursuing work with Java because I have some interest in eventually working as a programmer, with the option of going back to web development when necessary.

PHP or .NET? .NET is paying right now, but so is Java and my current thoughts are that Java will give you more options than web development.

This is mostly due to marketing. Who markets PHP to the masses? No one except the evangelists that use it now. I know because I am one. Who markets .NET? A monopolistic mega corporation that has every reason to want their software on every computer in the world. Who markets Java? Well I haven't seen much from Sun lately, but they certainly got the word out a while back and now we have all these web sites run by JSP or the like. ColdFusion, or as I like to affectionately call it, ColdConfusion, is now owned by Macromedia after they purchased it (or maybe it was the whole company) from Allaire. ColdFusion is rarely implemented well. I haven't seen many sites that use it properly (no major errors, impossibly slow load times, poor efficiency, etc.) and those that do are dwindling in numbers it seems. Maybe Macromedia can save this resource, or maybe they will let it die. Somehow I doubt they will let it die.


What I think it comes down to is this: If you are a do-it-yourselfer, go with PHP. The benefits are too numerous to relist here. Everyone else has done a decent job outlining the major reasons to go with PHP.
However, if your company is willing to put you through (pay for) learning .NET, I say go for it. It's a much more close-minded approach to go with anything Microsoft. It's in their corporate philosophy.
I don't really have an opinion on JSP as I don't knwo enough about it.
Stay away from ColdFusion unless you are a masochistic programmer and have some time to kill. I suppose it could be a good thing to know if you ever have to deal with a web site coded with CF.

Good luck and have fun!

[mushroom]

PHP is both opensource and cross platform this makes it better in the long run.

Bugs can be found faster and improvements can be made and distributed easlily and freely because of it's opernsource nature.

Can be moved between OS's with no script modification, you have to like that.

It's all most will ever need and it's FREE.

[savvymedias]

I don't see why there wasn't an option for both; however, with more and more applications coming out, and Microsoft wrapping them in (for example FrontPage has several components for auto installations of databases) and the natural progression from ASP to .net, I would think that the vast amount of sole proprietors will be using something similar to .Net while the new breed of professionals is going to like PHP, apache, linux, etc.

I started computer programming when I was 7 with BASIC, LOGO and PASCAL and I grew up with Microsoft, hence my personal preference for the ease of ASP and all things MS. As a web designer and small business owner, though, I use both for their various applications and PHP does play well with ASP if hosted with the right company.

Why must we choose? ;)

[Web Designer Leeds]

I found .NET an easy platform to develop for. It isnt so expensive to use considering the power of the applications you can build.

[ireneherz]

I use a free, excellent editor from Microsoft called Net Matrix. The only extra expense for me in using .NET is that hosting is maybe $1 more a month, although I'm finding GOOD hosting companies aren't cheap and offer both Microsoft and LINUX.

[WebDatum]

first off the question has been asked and only gets asked by someone looking to start a battle... when in reality they both are the future and there are more languages out there... you want to get paid to code... you better know your stuff in a few different languages.

ASP is best on its platform... PHP best on its platform... JSP best on other platforms.

Trying to decide between them is stupid. Learn them all and as many as possible.

I started learning C... now when I approach a C based language it's just a matter of laerning the specific functions of that language.

All languages that are out there are pretty much capable... it is the programmer that is often the weak link.

Go and learn... multiple platforms, multiple languages... that is how you stay employed.

[rumblepup]

I have to disagree that .net is not free like php. The .net runtime is available for download completely for free, and hosting can be just as, if not cheaper than linux or unix hosting. Developing asp.net applications is as easy as opening up notepad, and there are just as many open source projects available as there are for the famed PHP LAMP set. As far as security is concerned, there is another online magazine called e-w**k (let's not name the competition) that hosts a completely open hack competition called OpenHack(duh.) There where two servers set up, one running an ASP.NET application (asp.net 1.0) and another running an Oracle/Sun Java application.

The ASP.Net application survived 80,000 hack attempts without compromise. The Oracle application went about 25,000 hack attempts with two breaches of security. And that was the first go around.

And Linux/Unix hosting is not as completely secure as it's made out to be. I seem to remember some rather big holes (that in all fairness, where closed up rather quickly) that were exploited just this past year.

Both PHP and ASP are prone to spaghetti coding, which I now absolutely hate, because I've seen first hand the easy and intuitive layer based system of asp.net. Of course, the premier development package for asp.net is Visual Studio.net, which ain't cheap even to Trump, but the .netMatrix is an open source app that you can easily use to create asp.net pages.

I think that MySQL and PostgreSQL are great databases, and I've seen fantastic functionality from them, but one of my partners is a developer who used to work with Lockhead Martin Skunk Works. He's developed in everything from BASIC to Zebra, has worked on databases from Access to MySQL, and his opinion is mine, when your back is to the wall, and only the absolute best is neccesary, you go with SQL and .net. I ain't anywhere near a coder (just an fan,) but when a developer of that stature, who really has no preference (name it, he'll code in it) tells me something that straight up, I tend to listen.

[xmx]

I personally prefer PHP.

Not only because I regularly use Linux.

I personally had too much troble from the MS products,
both for the operating system of my PC and for servers
of webhosting services. I can't feel fully confident
with what arrives from them.

[igor1]

for professional use I see JSP.

[HardCoded]

Originally Posted by Web Designer Leeds

I found .NET an easy platform to develop for. It isnt so expensive to use considering the power of the applications you can build.

What power does it have that PHP doesn't have? I maintain it has no extra powers, and that therefore it is infinitely more expensive.

Plus there is the well known, well documented security risks that made everyone want to use Linux over Windows in the first place. Plus there is the constant pain in the ass of patching your live server weekly or whatever it is. Plus you have to pay through the nose whenever you need some COM object or ISAPI thing to do what apache and PHP can do for free.

Jay Drake mentions the only good reason there is to try to learn .NET - that for some bizarre reason it seems to be more in-demand jobs wise. Otherwise I wouldn't even consider it.

On a related note, I'm pretty sick and tired of all those webmaster ads that demand skill in a particular software package, like DW or PS. Who comes up with this stuff? Some retard in HR? Why do they care what I use to get the job done?

[hotwheel]

You will find your weekend warriors use PHP but how many enterprise applications are deployed using that technology?

Java is the language I would focus on. Hey, it's free too! And it's open source community has great tools like templating layers, build tools, logging, database extraction layers, MVC frameworks etc.

And deploying Java on any platform isn't hard (client and/or server apps).

[jitender]

hi all

i feel php has good feature, it has so many opensource, mostly all feature aviable, but ofcourse not powerful like .net

regards
jitender

[yugg]

I don't think I have seen so many answers in one forum before! You seem to have touched people's hearts with this one!

However, you seem to be concerned primarily about find a job and career, in which case the relative merits of Php and .Net should be totally irrelevant to you. The only question to ask is, "Where are the jobs?"

You can see the answer if you go to the the IT job sites (something I wish I had done when I moved in to web development)and see what jobs they have, but the short answer is that 90% of all web development jobs are in .Net and, to a slightly lesser extent, Java. Case closed, so far as shaping out a career is concerned. (This is the case in the UK, but I imagine it,s the same in the US and most other countries). Have a look at JayDrake's replies here as well.

As a professional programmer of many years I moved in to web development mainly to earn some money off websites, but I did consider it might also be useful in future jobs. But I took the Php/Unix route because that seemed to be a more robust platform and doesn't suffer Microsoft's apalling security record.

Now I wish I had taken the .Net route because there are very few Php jobs around. There are many projects on the freelance sites, but they seem to have about a thousand applicants each! I can switch and learn .net easily enough but the job market in the UK is sewn up by parasites who call themselves recruitment agencies (do you have that problem in the US?) and in their simple tick-the-skills-box mentality they can't envisage how a professional programmer with several languages and platforms already under his belt can easily move to another platform; he must have two years or more in a skill before they will consider it. They are so simple minded that many of them think C++ is no good if their job spec says C/C++. Apart from which they are ageist, sexist and, probably, racist as well if you could only catch them at it!

And yes, I don't like recruitment agencies! Does that touch anyone's nerve! They are a blot on the IT landscape. Ok, rant over. Go for .net if you want a career.

[DrTandem1]

.NET boils-down to one word: Microsoft. I have nothing against Microsoft as a company. However, with most of their software, there are compatibility and security problems. I don't know, if these exist with .NET or not, but previous bad experiences with their other products that deal with web design will keep me from using .NET.

The way they screwed-up simple HTML with FrontPage is a good example of compatibility issues. Their OS and Outlook have constant patches for security problems. Yes, I'm biased against .NET.

On the positive side, I have not seen many problems with PHP.

[DrTandem1]

Oh, I forgot to address the issue of the job market. If you want a job, yes, you will need to meet the employer's criteria. Most HR people have no clue as to what skills their web designer(s) need. It's kind of like requiring that someone has their degree in whatever. A degree means you were able to attend college, it has no bearing on your knowledge and skills.

If you're interested in making money in web design, I recommend going it alone or with a trusted partner or two. If you just have to be employed by the man, well get the skills your desired employer requires.

Good luck.

[webcoder]

I think it would be inappropraite to let PHP alone battle it out with ASP.NET
Rather, if we let PHP5 fight with .NET that will be more of a comparism.
However, as most of the members have mentioned...we should either look at it from better job aspect or more fun aspect.
If we see fun:
Both .NET & PHP are real intersting languages to work with (after all how can someone take away the fun of programming...solving puzzles)

If we consider job:
Hmnn...I am afraid .NET (& Java of course) is taking the market share awaye from others.
As it appears, Europe still prefers PHP. But the market is still not lucrative enough as PHP still doesn't provide application building capability (not much compared to .NET Framework).

I think the inability to provide such desktop/standalone applications is a -ve for PHP.

However, I myself being a Opensource Fan from day one (when I learned what Opensource is), I am expecting PHP will gradaully build this capability.
Keeping my fingers crossed :)
[& will also try to learn .NET ASAP]

Regards
WC

[netman4ttm]

I like PHP. But for real server side power, there are 3 players and none of them are Micro$loth. IBM, SUN and Apache-Tomcat.
I wouldn't bet against Gates and company. But they don't have an Enterprise class server yet.
So if you want to learn a language, I would go with JAVA.

[TechEvangelist]

I worked with classic ASP (pre ASP.NET) for several years and then migrated to PHP. I found PHP easier to use and far more powerful than classic ASP. PHP 5 does move deeper into OO, and is a good path if you want to move away from procedural languages.

I also took a close look at ASP.NET. In my opinion, Microsoft took a simple concept and made it more complex than it needs to be. Web development is not rocket science. Plus, I know of at least a few clients that migrated from classic ASP on Microsoft servers to a Chilisoft (now Sun ASP) environment on Sun or Linux servers just to get away from the constant attacks on Microsoft servers.

As a independent Web developer, I find that the overwhelming majority of my clients are already on Linux servers, which makes PHP development a natural migration. I've seen almost no demand in my market for ASP.NET.

Most ASP.NET users appear to be corporate users with in-house Web development teams. If you intend to work in the corporate environment, learning ASP.NET would be a wise investment. If you want to work with smaller customers, PHP is a more natural choice.

[ReviewGolf.com]

Not sure what you meant PHP is less powerfull then .NET

.NET is backed by deep Microsoft pockets and PHP by hundreds of thousands if not millions of developers. You can run PHP on multitude of platforms when .NET won't work on anything else by Microsoft servers.

Personally I do not know much about .NET, but don't get me started on PHP!

.NET -> Where Do You Want to Go Today...?
.PHP -> What Do You Need the Web to Do for You?

[netman4ttm]

1722 pages for the PHP manual! (8.5 x 11)

Powerful is a useless term here, what can .NET do that PHP can't? What can PHP do that .NET can't? I doubt that there is much difference in end result between the 2. But .Net locks you into an OS, web server and software assurance program that a lot of companies are dumping.

[voodooboy]

The biggest selling point for .NET is integration. Microsoft develops all their server and databasing platforms, Intrenet browser and programming languages to be dependent on one another. Without that connection, .NET would be as popular as programming in PERL (which is pretty much dead). .NET is dependent on all the other elements. If one goes away, most of .NET's glimmer will rub off. Where as, PHP can adapt to any environment (server base), any databasing system and any browser.

[techboy]

What languages do you write .NET in C#, ASP.... I've written ASP when it was ver 3.0, do .NET applications run smoothly on all browsers, or just IE? Are the .NET libraries as packed as PHP does it have all those built in libs for modding images, ftp,pop3, there at least 40 libraries for doing various tasks in PHP does .NET offer that as well? If we are going to compare the two the things we should look at is product lifetime, functionality, ease of use, learning curve, and cost. I personaly develope in whatever environment I'm required to.

[netman4ttm]

Maven,
I hate Microsoft. Like you couldn't figure that out from my previous answers.
I would learn .NET. Why you ask? Because Microsoft is about to put the screws to NT. There are apparently, a lot of financial institutions still running NT and they will be shipping large amounts of other people's money to Microsoft to upgrade their systems. Then they will spend even more money to make their stuff work. Which is where you, Maven, a well trained .NET programmer can make big bucks.

[M0rtym0use]

In all honesty to say you hate a system is not the best approach to take and no offence is a sign of ignorance a preference would be a better term to use...

I prefer MS Systems as that has been the core of my usage as far as systems go. In all honesty PHP and .NET are more or less on par with each other as what you want to do goes and where another may falter another will prosper asp.net is the next stage of asp which was very limiting to code in and .net opens up a lot of functionality that is current in php.

but the two together match up pretty well on the alternate OS which they are designed to run.

but lets not forget that .net is not just a web technology although this is what it is driven to accomplish it encompasses vb,c,java functionality and gives them a kind of generic set of usebility with the way objects are called and processed using a similar structure to their parent language eg:
VB:
Dim str As String
C#:
string str;

this debate could in all fairness go on continuously but both should be around for a long time on their primary systems and a choice of the developer where their income will come from...

MM

[HardCoded]

Originally Posted by webcoder

PHP still doesn't provide application building capability (not much compared to .NET Framework).

I think the inability to provide such desktop/standalone applications is a -ve for PHP.

This is an interesting point. As an example of this, consider a hotel which wants to provide on-line reservations but which uses a local POS system (usually running on Windows these days...a few years ago it might have been Remanco running on SCO) to keep track of its room rack. Now when front desk wants to insert a reservation (that's come in by phone, say) they must update two things: the POS database and the online database.

So you could code an app in .NET and have it be a SOAP client talking to your online PHP app. But now you need to have two languages to make this work.

I haven't tried using the PHP CLI for this kind of thing but wonder if anyone has some comments on that.

[MarcThai]

Scanning through all the responses to this discussion I noticed that no one said anything about WebProWorld running on PHP. Does that tell us something?

Basically, though, I think discussions of this type are self-defeating....kinda like the discussion about whether MS or MAC is better. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

What it all comes down to is user preference and functionality. I use PHP, but would opt for .NET if necessary (and if the contract was a biggie).

One thing I have learned after living in Thailand for 25 years is that one should be flexible. This can also be applied to programming.

[maven]

Well it is gr8 to recieve such a response for my Question , i felt its an enigma not only for me but of most !!!

i feel the final conclusion is

today .net is paying and has 90% of jobs

but is any bosy dead sure that after an year or so PHP will hit back and will be as famous as .net
and will corporates accept it ?

* ( as i have heard that corporates avoid open source
becoz the cannot have complete rights on it
is it true ???? )


and why ???

[voodooboy]

Originally Posted by maven

Well it is gr8 to recieve such a response for my Question , i felt its an enigma not only for me but of most !!!

i feel the final conclusion is

today .net is paying and has 90% of jobs

but is any body dead sure that after an year or so PHP will hit back and will be as famous as .net
and will corporates accept it ?

* ( as i have heard that corporates avoid open source
becoz the cannot have complete rights on it
is it true ???? )


and why ???

Put it this way, Microsoft created .NET to keep up with the growth and power attributed to PHP. And most likely, .NET will be replaced with yet another language by Microsoft that will cost you another couple thousand dollars in books and training to be able to use. That is the corporate world and how they make their money.

As for rights... No company holds rights to .NET technology. They pay to use it, not own it. Microsoft will never release rights to it. The beauty of PHP is that in a way, we all own a part of it. And instead of hording the knowledge like MS does with .NET, we share it and that is why PHP continues to grow and push the envelope while ASP.NET is just playing catch-up.

Regarding corporate accepting it... It is not a matter of acceptance; it is a matter of money. You will see that companies with a 15-20 year heritage are all Microsoft based. It is cheaper for these companies to pay for new MS technology then to scrap everything and go with something new like PHP. What you will see though is that companies 5-10 years old and newer are using open source. Why? Again, two reasons... value and flexibility. If you are going to spend the next 3-5 years training to be a programmer, then I would say go for PHP first. If you plan on joining the market right now, then go .NET first and learn PHP on the side.

Keep in mind that technology is never predictable. Just in the past couple years we have seen the introduction and growth of Python, Ruby, PHP, Cold Fusion, C#, just to name a few. All designed to be more flexible and expand on previous languages. By the time you become an expert on .NET, Microsoft will have something new for you to learn. That is the way of technology. You are never an expert, always a student.

Best of luck.

[voodooboy]

Originally Posted by maven

Well it is gr8 to recieve such a response for my Question , i felt its an enigma not only for me but of most !!!

i feel the final conclusion is

today .net is paying and has 90% of jobs

but is any body dead sure that after an year or so PHP will hit back and will be as famous as .net
and will corporates accept it ?

* ( as i have heard that corporates avoid open source
becoz the cannot have complete rights on it
is it true ???? )


and why ???

Put it this way, Microsoft created .NET to keep up with the growth and power attributed to PHP. And most likely, .NET will be replaced with yet another language by Microsoft that will cost you another couple thousand dollars in books and training to be able to use. That is the corporate world and how they make their money.

As for rights... No company holds rights to .NET technology. They pay to use it, not own it. Microsoft will never release rights to it. The beauty of PHP is that in a way, we all own a part of it. And instead of hording the knowledge like MS does with .NET, we share it and that is why PHP continues to grow and push the envelope while ASP.NET is just playing catch-up.

Regarding corporate accepting it... It is not a matter of acceptance; it is a matter of money. You will see that companies with a 15-20 year heritage are all Microsoft based. It is cheaper for these companies to pay for new MS technology then to scrap everything and go with something new like PHP. What you will see though is that companies 5-10 years old and newer are using open source. Why? Again, two reasons... value and flexibility. If you are going to spend the next 3-5 years training to be a programmer, then I would say go for PHP first. If you plan on joining the market right now, then go .NET first and learn PHP on the side.

Keep in mind that technology is never predictable. Just in the past couple years we have seen the introduction and growth of Python, Ruby, PHP, Cold Fusion, C#, just to name a few. All designed to be more flexible and expand on previous languages. By the time you become an expert on .NET, Microsoft will have something new for you to learn. That is the way of technology. You are never an expert, always a student.

Best of luck.

[netman4ttm]

This showed up from ComputerWorld this morning.

Multible platforms seems to be the winning feature, so using that logic PHP beats .NET.


"Who will win the Web services war?

Opinion by Brian Bakker, Computing South Africa





JUNE 23, 2004 - Technology battles have long been a feature of the IT industry. Most IT managers will remember the LAN wars -- Ethernet .vs Token Ring -- and the bus wars -- Industry Standard Architecture .vs Micro-Channel Architecture. In both cases the eventual winner was the least proprietary solution.

In the Web services war the two dominant platforms are Java and .Net. Conventional wisdom indicates that most enterprises will adopt strategies featuring both, but recent research by Evans Data Corp. suggests otherwise. In surveying 500 developers currently involved in Web services, Evans found that 70% believe that support for multiple operating systems is more important than support for multiple languages.


The reasons are apparent from answers to a question about time frames for developing Web services with wireless devices. Almost 40% of respondents are either already rolling out Web services to such devices, or plan to do so within 12 months. A further 21.2% expect to be extending Web services in this manner 12 to 24 months from now.


The most interesting aspect revealed by the research was the rating that developers gave to various characteristics of Web services. The most important factor for 58% of the respondents was support for the latest standards -- specifically those related to security and reliability.


Other characteristics rated highly were: integration with specific Web or applications servers (47.1%); debugging and test features (43.4%); a robust and usable GUI (43.4%); certified support for interoperability (42.8%); and open-source support (34.9%).


On the issue of standards, Gartner Inc. analyst Daryl Plummer notes that Microsoft Corp. has submitted approximately 40% of the APIs and specifications for .Net to the European Computer Manufacturers Association standard body.


"However, Microsoft only submitted the lower-level API, and has retained proprietary control over higher-level elements of the platform. Nevertheless, this has successfully created the 'illusion' of open-standards support for the platform," he says.


Gartner makes the point that applications and services deployed within the .Net framework are not tied directly to the underlying operating system. "Although Microsoft has made no official announcements regarding its intention to support the full .Net framework beyond Windows, it has frequently alluded to this option," Plummer says.


Advocates of Microsoft's vision for Web services frequently mention the Common Language Runtime element of .Net. Evans has this to say: "Through the CLR, Microsoft's .Net supports multiple languages, but so does Java. In .Net, compiled code -- whether from C#, VB.Net, or even Cobol -- is the same. This compiled code, called Intermediate Language, is analogous to Java Bytecode. Equally, however, for Java, there are many languages that code can be written in, and there are also free open-source compilers for the Java Virtual Machine."


Who will win the war? The answer is debatable, but, where the relative maturity of Java is a factor in its favor, Microsoft owns the desktop, and its marketing muscle should never be discounted.


The likelihood is that Java will continue to permeate the enterprise -- primarily at the back end -- while Microsoft will remain a factor on the desktop, as well as in the small and medium-size enterprise sector, where multiple platforms are less prevalent. "

[mushroom]

Originally Posted by netman4ttm

I like PHP. But for real server side power, there are 3 players and none of them are Micro$loth. IBM, SUN and Apache-Tomcat.
I wouldn't bet against Gates and company. But they don't have an Enterprise class server yet.
So if you want to learn a language, I would go with JAVA.

Java is completly different, Php runs completly on the server and you have full control. Java must download and run on the brower and some of your control is lost.

[HardCoded]

Java must download and run on the browser and some of your control is lost.

Uhhm...no, they're talking about server-side Java. Look into JSP, Tomcat and the like.

[netman4ttm]

Mushroom, thanks to netscape and javascript both you and I think alike. However, HardCoded is correct, java is server side on enterprise servers.

There is a new version of Eclipse, 3.0 I think; that is supposed to bridge Java Microsoft PHP darn near everything so this thread might well be an interesting historical conversation.